The Identity Crisis of a Modern Muslim

This is exactly what i have been thinking for quite sometime. It seems if iqbal saab had not written this stuff it would have been me.

I would like to know more about the writer

thanks

Sarmad Tanwir

Ref rsridhar #: 523

[It may interest you to know that some monasteries in Siberia still perform rituals in sanskrit. The person doing it does it from a vocal tradition with no knowledge of what he is saying.]

If Sanskrit is indeed used in some Siberian monastery, it is probably due to the spread of Buddhism from India to Central Asia. Mongolians were observant Lamaist Buddhists who had a religious system similar to Tibet`s, including a Head Lama known as the Gergen. For a while, there was rivalry between the Gergen and the Dalai Lama but the Mongolians accepted the superiority of the Dalai Lama and used to make pilgrimages to Lhasa.

Regarding your statement that Indians don`t have a collective memory of their place of origin outside of India and this refutes the Aryan Invasion Theory, I don`t think one can be as simplistic as that. In fact, I have read articles in some old religious magazines which claim that Mount Meru is in the Arctic Circle and Aryans originated from Scandinavia! We should let unbiased historians write the history of India from a variety of evidentiary sources, including linguistic, archealogical, etc.

The current fad of trying to debunk the Aryan Invasion Theory is nothing but an attempt to respond in kind to the crappy history that has whitewashed the crimes against humanity of the various sultanates in India. There will be no objective history written about India by any Indian because they are all in the pay of the government in power, depending on it as they are for research grants, book grants, professorships, etc.

re:Reply #: 517

macgupta,

Have you read the book ``The return of Aryans`` by Gidwani? He makes the pitch that Aryans were always original inhabitants of India and went abroad and settled in various places. Many of them came back. It is a well researched book.

I find it hard to believe that people who left their lands and came to India would not mention their birthplaces out of nostalgia. There is no mention of such place(s)be it Siberia or Central Europe or Iran. Rg Veda has no mention of places from where the early Aryans were supposed to have descended.

Many researchers (Max Mueller et al)have tried to discredit India by implying such a great culture and language (sanskrit)could not have been invented by Indians (Macaulay`s logic), so it has to come from outside. There is no proof it did come from outside India. Sanskrit is not spoken anywhere else except in India even after many thousand years. The closest to that language is the Zorastrian language. So, a whole lot of people are questioning the AIT.

It may interest you to know that some monasteries in Siberia still perform rituals in sanskrit. The person doing it does it from a vocal tradition with no knowledge of what he is saying.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 483

soysauce,

IS Johar is known for his tongue-in-cheek remarks. Once, asked by another bollywood comedian (i think Mehmood),what I.S in his name stand for, he said ``Incometax Saving`` because he does not believe in paying Income Tax. Everyone in the audience was amused, everyone except an IT guy. Johar`s residence was raided within a week!

Sridhar

re:Bharatanatyam dance

There is some lively discussion going on here regarding classical dances.

Reply #: 452

harimau,

I would not advise anyone to go and see Vijayantimala Bali`s dance. For one, she is not young anymore. Secondly, she, i am told, is scary looking. In her younger days, she was no doubt superb. If anyone has not seen a movie ``Amrapalli`` he has missed some superb dancing by her.

I think, there have been many great dancers in Bharata Natyam starting from Rukmini Arundale. Balasaraswati is often considered the greatest by many experts. My sister had the previlege of learning BN from her sister, Swarna Saraswati, who has a reputation as good as Bala. She was old and lived on govt scholarship in Delhi. Many of her students started their own schools and are training many students today. Swarna saraswati emphasised Bhava more than the movements. She was so strict that she would go into fitful rage if students kept repeating mistakes.

My sister,after giving her Arangetram (first public performance)has,alas, given up dancing and is today a homemaker in US.

Sridhar

http://ifihhome.tripod.com/bbl001.html

Zafar - ok ok i accept !!!

Take care,

aicha

I know this board is more or less dead but - Kathak is def more graceful than Bharatnatyam. A bit slow. However the most graceful (among other things) i would think is belly dancing!!

One more thing - the two reasons why I think that the standard view of history is problematic, and that either the Indo-European homeland is South Asia or that the Indo-Europeans arrived much earlier than the 1700-1400 BC that standard history teaches are :

1. The already mentioned Saraswati river.

2. The enormous extent of the existing civilization. The Hittites and Greeks were Indo-European intruders on their respective areas in Anatolia and Greece, and the pre-existing languages there have left their traces on Hittite and Greek. Supposedly about 50% of Greek vocabulary is non-IndoEuropean and a larger percentage of Hittite. And this was in relatively small areas.

The linguists want us to believe that somehow, I-E intruders into South Asia so effectively buried the traces of the pre-existing languages over such a wide area that Rig Vedic Sanskrit barely shows a trace of non-I-E influence (less than 5% of the vocab is non-I-E). Kind of hard to believe.

Then, the ancient Iranians, Sumerians, Egyptians, and even the Tamils in India have the legends of having come from another place. But these Vedic people (whose closest known relatives, linguistically speaking are the ancient Iranians, the language of the Zend Avesta is like Sanskrit) and their descendants with an unparalleled record of oral tradition have not the least hint of any tradition or legend of having come from somewhere else.

Oh, yes, there are just as many problems with the theory of native Indo-Europeans, but what that tells us is that no-one really knows for certain.

-Arun Gupta

hobbyt, I really feel sorry for you, like I would for Rip Van Winkle.

Jarrige first excavated Mehrgarh 1974-1986. It is one of the earliest sites of the so-called Indus Valley Civilization. Excavations resumed in 1996.

As I mentioned in a previous note, the civilization is the most wide-spread of all the ancient civilizations, and even naming it after two rivers (Saraswati-Sindhu) let alone one (Sindhu or Indus) is a misnomer. The current known extent of this civilization is of the order of a million square kilometers, and new discoveries keep expanding the scope.

I suggest you read the material on harappa.com, a site run by a Pakistani (so no Hindu propaganda on it :-)).

-Arun Gupta

Zafar:

``watch any group of Southies at a concert and a lot of them usually beat out the taal with their hands.``

Big Deal, next time in Delhi go to the local Punjabi Dhaba and you can see the Tandooriya do the exact same thing when making Tandoori Rotis :)

saminashah and others interested:

For all you culture vultures, I just read in a newspaper today that the Royal Shakespeare Company (RSC) is putting together a stage production of ``Midnights Children``, which after its British run, will tour India, Pakistan and the USA at some point later this year. Keep your eyes peeled!

re: saminashah

{{ Do you really think Ali and Rsax are brothers?....oh...that would explain many things...}}

ouch, i didn`t deserve that insult

{{ Maybe they should take up knitting or bread making....its quite relaxing... }}

...sweaters and bread are too cheap to make them at home...and i wouldn`t want Xiang Lao Peng in some sweatshop in China to lose his job because I am not buying finished sweaters...

Macgupta, Sadna, Zafar

How do you think Hindu Nationalists will react to the development below - How will hook it with the Vedas? - But besides the polemic of Hindu or Vedas, what might it mean for peoples on either side of the divide - to have a archelogical record which does not fit the political ideologies prevalent in Pakistan or India?

Do you have any info on any possible tie between the Indus Civ and the Bactrian Civ?

From: ``News International`` Feb. 1, 2002

``Ruins of 7,000 BC civilisation discovered in Balochistan

ISLAMABAD: International archaeologists have discovered a rich civilisation dating back to around 7,000 BC at Mehrgarh, Balochistan, that may have links to Moenjodaro in the Indus valley.

This was revealed by Prof Jean-Francois Jarrige, a noted French Archaeologist and Director at the prestigious Musee Guimet, National Museum of Asian Arts in Paris. Jarrige and his team, working at Mehrgarh for the last 30 years, made the discovery of one of the oldest civilisation during excavation there. While giving a presentation on his recent discoveries at the Islamabad Club Auditorium, he said Pakistan is a country with rich archaeological sites of international interest like Mehrgarh to discover. Highlighting his discoveries, he said some ancient buildings were found in very good condition in Pakistan, Eastern Iran and India, which showed that the people were living in well-built and organised houses.

He also showed a long brick with a finger print which depicts that people were using their hands to properly adjust the bricks used for construction. Later, these bricks become smaller, he added. He disclosed that his team had also discovered about 30 graves from the Mehrgarh site as majority of them were females with the age from 18 to 22.

Their bodies, he said, were above normal. He also showed slides of some discoveries found from the site of excavation, including clay pots, stones, skeletons, ornaments, building structures and other articles of human use.``

re: Zafar

{{Next time you’re in Bombay try and see some good Bharath Natyam. It WILL change your mind.}}

arrey? mujhe maalum tha...you have secret bombay envy...everything is bigger and better there, isn`t it?...now if you just admit it, we can figure out where you can meet some hotties on your next trip to bombay...oh wait, mrs. zafar will shoot you if she finds out, won`t she?..

. . . my list on Muslim girls was not anything other than part of an effort to teach the alphabet. Forgive me if anybody was left out, other than the penguins, which nobody noticed anyway.

. . . as for you stuka/ali and the others may I suggest that both of you get better insults going please?

Reply Aicha

OK, but let me tell you, the Memon Jamaat is happiest extending sympathy...

Reply Stuka

Yup - have been to Habitat - saw Shobha Mudgal there, also Aditi Mangaldas (whom I seem to keep mentioning...)

The head shaking at IIC was probably to the taal. Actually, watch any group of Southies at a concert and a lot of them usually beat out the taal with their hands.

Veeresh:

Here is another category of Muslim Girls:

Chowk inhabiting, secretly in love with RSaxena, Muslim Girls ;)

AnNy:

``stuka and ali1:

you both should kill yourselves``

:( Arrey, hamney aapka kya bigaara hai. In fact, I have noticed a big improvement in my discussion with Ali#1. Nowadays, we predominantly insult only each other, as opposed to insulting communities, religions and nations. Better situation right?

semipreciousme - thks i`ll def stick to food then !!

Zafar

``llow me to accept your sympathy on behalf of the Memon Jamaath. You were offering, no?``

No - i wasnt!! Actaully what is the difference? we are all human beings - some sub(`s) do exist but we shall not talk of those creatures. Anyways if teh Jamaath is happy being who they are they are then why rock the boat !

rdesi,

Thanks for the info! In the last two years I`ve only been going to dance performances put on by the Lotus dance studio; they have some amazing dancers, but I`m looking to find some performances by dancers/troupes from the Subcontinent...are you by any chance near Oak Tree Road?

Also, haven`t seen a vocal performance since Abida Parveen and that was a closed community performance...I know that the World Music Institute books some excellent musicians....

anNY

Do you really think Ali and Rsax are brothers?....oh...that would explain many things...and if they killed themselves, surely some of us would be a little sad, hain?

Maybe they should take up knitting or bread making....its quite relaxing...

CutandPaste

What is so great/terrible about a leader in Pakistan being killed that you have to paste in 10 boards?

Zafar:

I once had to sit through a Bharat Natyam performance at the India International Centre. It was the most boring one hour of my life. Since the performance wasn`t doing much, I was watching people in the audience.

Everyone kept shaking their heads in this jerky way, going with the beat I guess. The audience was predominantly Punjabi, so I guess they weren`t understanding anything either. Just pretending to be all cultured and all...typical IIC behavior.

BTW, have you had a chance to go to the new Inida Habitat Centre? (New is a relative term, anything that occured after I left is ``new``)

Veereesh,

#492

Perhaps you might want to add these categories?

Muslim Girls Who Are Physically Masculine Because They Advocate For Equal Rights

Muslim Girls Who Are Kanjars and Oreos Because They Can Write Complex Sentences and Advocate For Equal Rights

oh wait...your list was critiquing stereotypes...

Oye Ali

You live in Boston? BTW, your father being a jamadar in Pakistani Army does not qualify you as one of ``military background``

In reply to cutandpaste : the Asia Times article is mostly garbage.

Firstly, Jamaat al-Fuqra is/was active in the US, and of course, had links to Pakistan, but as far as is known, was not active in India.

E.g.,

http://www.milnet.com/milnet/tgp/data/jamat.htm

Secondly, this org. has been in the news recently in the US, with law-enforcement investigations goin on, in California, Colorado and in Virginia. Do a search on ``Fuqra`` in google, for instance.

From Dec 10, 2001 (Colorado):

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/news/7newsinvestigates/stories/7newsinvestigates-112148720011210-181238.html

Dec 25, 2001 (California) :

http://www.dailynewslosangeles.com/socal/terrorist/1201/25/terror15.asp

Dec 21, 2001 (Virginia)

http://www.kfwb.com/news/nat/n122101.html

One would think that Pakistani spooks attempting to plant their theories in the press know how to search the web.

-Arun Gupta

In reply to cutandpaste : the Asia Times article is mostly garbage.

Firstly, Jamaat al-Fuqra is/was active in the US, and of course, had links to Pakistan, but as far as is known, was not active in India.

E.g.,

http://www.milnet.com/milnet/tgp/data/jamat.htm

Secondly, this org. has been in the news recently in the US, with law-enforcement investigations goin on, in California, Colorado and in Virginia. Do a search on ``Fuqra`` in google, for instance.

From Dec 10, 2001 (Colorado):

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/den/news/7newsinvestigates/stories/7newsinvestigates-112148720011210-181238.html

Dec 25, 2001 (California) :

http://www.dailynewslosangeles.com/socal/terrorist/1201/25/terror15.asp

Dec 21, 2001 (Virginia)

http://www.kfwb.com/news/nat/n122101.html

One would think that Pakistani spooks attempting to plant their theories in the press know how to search the web.

-Arun Gupta

http://atimes.com/ind-pak/DB01Df01.html

Daniel Pearl kidnapping plot thickens

By Syed Saleem Shahzad

KARACHI - The kidnapping mystery surrounding the Wall Street Journal`s South Asia bureau chief, Daniel Pearl, is still unresolved after more than a week. Insiders in Pakistani intelligence agencies say the case is not as simple as it appears. But the theories emanating from these agencies have one thing in common: that the kidnapping is an Indian ploy to provide American detective agencies, which are already established in the country, with a chance to discover all the strings of the Pakistani secret underworld as they investigate the case.

Sources say that in the past few days the course of investigation into Pearl`s kidnapping has suddenly changed, and all fingers are now pointing toward outfits that are little known but have been operational in India. One of these organizations, Jamiatul Faqurah, is alleged by India to have carried out terrorist activities, and now, strangely for the first time, its connections to underworld Muslim groups have been established by the United States.

After Pearl`s kidnapping, the first suspect was Harkatul Mujahadeen, an organization banned by the US several years ago. However, aware of the entire structure of this militant group, Pakistani investigators did not pursue the idea. Pakitani intelligence agencies have inroads into all Pakistani militant groups, and believe that had Harkat or any other known militant group kidnapped Pearl, they would have found a clue no matter how secretly the kidnapping was carried out.

Just three days after the incident, Pakistani intelligence agenicies reported to the country`s leadership that no Pakistani militant group was behind the incident. They could find no suspect nor match the modus operandi with those of militant groups operating in Pakistan. The way Pearl was snatched, and the way the kidnappers` demands were made known via email, are not characteristic of Pakistani groups.

The intelligence agencies have therefore concluded in their reports that the kidnapping was a plot hatched by an Indian agency or proxies infiltrated into militant organizations. The motive? To imply that Osama bin Laden`s al-Qaeda network is operating in Pakistan. Once this became recognized, the US would conduct an operation that would not only eliminate Pakistani underworld groups but also discover and destroy their links in India.

This thesis presented by Pakistani intelligence agencies is given weight by several events. Initially, it was stressed that Pearl was staying in Karachi near the beach in a rented property, along with his wife and an Indian friend. He was investigating cyber-crimes and militant organizations. He met with some senior US officials at the US consulate in Karachi, and was not seen again. His kidnapping was registered at Clifton Police Station in Karachi.

However, in the past few days it has emerged - or been claimed - that Pearl managed to meet some senior members of Harkatul Mujahideen in Rawalpindi, who promised him they would arrange his meeting with Shiekh Mubarrak Jillani, a leader of Jamiatul Fuqarah. Jamiatul Fuqarah is said to be operative in Kashmir. It was also implied that Jamiatul Fuqarah has links with some underground groups in the US. The theory then changed to Pearl being kidnapped not in Karachi but in Rawalpindi, and that an organization like Jamiatul Fuqarah was behind the kidnapping.

The US Federal Bureau of Investigation and Pakistani agencies then conducted raids in Rawalpindi, searching for Shiekh Mubarak. Mubarak put an end to that by appearing before the senior superintendent of police in Rawalpindi last Wednesday.

The implication that Jamiatul Fuqarah was involved in Pearl`s kidnapping is strange, because the group has never been accused of conducting terrorist activities in Pakistan. However, New Delhi has blamed the outfit for many incidents that have occurred in India.

Pakistani intelligence sources say that the kidnapping is likely to be a blow for Pakistani secret services` operations in India. There are many such operations, designed to keep India entangled in its internal affairs to the extent that it would not bother to attack Pakistan. Many of these operations were hatched during General Zia ul Haq`s tenure, with the intention of encouraging Indian separatist movements of any hue, Muslim or non-Muslim.

The Sikh Khalistan movement and the Muslim Kashmiri movement are now widely known, but there are other militant structures that the Indian intelligence agencies know about but have not managed to crack. One of them is Dawood Ibrahim`s underworld mafia in Mumbai, which now draws its support from across India.

However, the most important underground structures include Sufi outfits. Traditionally, the Sufis have always kept themselves apart from worldly affairs, preferring to focus on spritual matters. But Zia ul Haq`s spies traced and cultivated some Sufi groups which had a tradition of combat and which struggled against British colonialism. One such outfit is Mian Mir (named after a famous Sufi saint) of Lahore, which has followers in India. These days, the custodian of Mian Mir`s tomb is none other than Skeikh Mubarak Jillani, now under investigation for the kidnapping of Daniel Pearl.

Sources say that many of the facts of the kidnapping are yet to unfold, but they are likely to make life difficult for the Pakistani secret agencies, both inside and outside Pakistan.

Reply Semipreciousme # 488

“….btw, how’re the refugees’ protests going down with the public?…why do i get the feeling that a lot of them would be glad to see them deported?….”

Your feeling is exactly right.

This all flows from the fact that Australia is an island continent – and the public is used to the idea that the Government controls who enters the country, and can usually do this pretty well. (Everybody, except Aust and NZ citizens, needs a visa to enter Australia. There is a lot of support for this policy – when it was suggested that they drop the visa requirement for countries unlikely to produce economic migrants – USA, Canada, Japan, etc. – the idea went over like a lead balloon.)

So…when you have a boatload of people arriving (and the numbers are truly miniscule, certainly compared to the numbers of asylum seekers in other developed countries) the reaction is out of all proportion to the numbers – it is the fact that they actually GOT HERE WITHOUT THE GOVERNMENT’S CONTROL that unsettles the public.

The mandatory detention thing is a blatant attempt to make people think twice before entering Australia unofficially (don’t know the proper word) – essentially, the Govt thinks that if it makes that route harder, fewer people will take it. (I don’t know if this is working.)

Oddly enough, Australia’s resettlement program for refugees is pretty good – that is to say, a fair number are accepted and resettled in the country, once their claims for asylum are reviewed. (The Government complains that the courts are “unduly lenient”. Hence it’s attempts to process refugee claims outside of Australia, where the applicants have no access to appeals in Australian courts. For more on this, look up Australia’s famous “pacific solution” where we warehouse asylum seekers in some of the poorest countries in the world.)

The protests of the refugees against mandatory detention are getting a mixed response from the Australian public. There already exists a block of opinion against mandatory detention – and which also supports resettling refugees here. (Of course there is also a block of opinion against this.) Generally asylum is supported in theory, but there is a feeling that “we are doing them a favour by accepting them” – and so when asylum seekers demonstrate as if asylum is a right (which it is, btw, under the law) it is at odds with this perception in the receiving country.

The most recent protests – involving threats to commit suicide and self mutilation (sewing lips together as a part of a hunger strike) – have gone down very badly, especially as some children were apparently coerced into sewing their lips together. The group of refugees which were involved in this were from Afghanistan.

The Government’s position on them is: “they were seeking refuge from the Taliban. The Taliban have been overthrown. Therefore they will be safe if they return to Afghanistan. If they still want to stay they are clearly not valid asylum seekers but economic migrants trying to sneak into the country the back way.” The public seems to agree with the Government on this one. This seems to have resulted in a certain desperation among the Afghan boat people – hence the protests.

Those poor Afghans. They probably sunk life saving/burrowings into this shady boat trip – and got here to find a Government that was a lot harder than they had been led to believe. And while the Australian Government is putting its back into setting a tough precedent and “sending a message to people smugglers” etc. – its these poor people who are caught in the middle.

Reply anNy # 490

“LOL..aap paan khatae hain? white white pointy jootae pehantae hain?:)”

Sorry to disappoint, Q-ben, but oon gujju nathi choon.

“…we have just one dancer (i think), sheema kirmani who does the Bharatha Natyam..pls excuse me if i think its quite silly and highly boring to have to sit through...”

Next time you’re in Bombay try and see some good Bharath Natyam. It WILL change your mind.

Reply Aicha # 493

“heyyy wait a sec - this works both ways you know : ) “

Allow me to accept your sympathy on behalf of the Memon Jamaath. You were offering, no?

Pak Hindu leader wins ballot battle, falls to bullet

VIVEK DESHPANDE

NAGPUR, JANUARY 31: A PROMINENT leader of the Pakistani Hindu community, Sudham Chand Chawla, who successfully fought a legal battle to ensure voting rights for Pakistani minorities, was shot dead by unidentified assailants in the Pakistani city of Jacobabad on Monday.

This was revealed by relatives of the slain leader to mediapersons here.



Pakistani newspapers such as The News and The Dawn carried the news of the killing which largely went unnoticed in India. A pall of gloom descended on the Chawla residence here when his relatives heard it on BBC Radio the same night.

According to his brother Jagdish, who resides here along with three other brothers, Chawla was scheduled to meet the Jacobabad collector in connection with the electoral rolls when he was shot dead.

The Pakistan Supreme Court had restored voting rights to minorities a fortnight ago following Chawla’s sustained efforts.

‘‘Some Muslim organisations, too, helped him in his endeavour but the fundamentalists probably didn’t like it and hence killed him,’’ he said.

Chawla, 45, was president of the Hindu General Panchayat and the Jacobabad district chief of Pakistan People’s Party (PPP). He was one of the prominent Hindu leaders and was popular among Muslims too.

Thousands gathered at his residence and Jacobabad observed an impromptu bandh when the news of his death spread. Hindus staged a highway blockade which was eased after the administration promised to nab the culprits.

‘‘Sindh traders observed a three-day bandh to protest the killing,’’ Chawla’s son Santosh said. Sudham Chand, who owned a rice mill, is survived by his widow, a son and a six-month-old daughter in Pakistan and three sons, Santosh, Manoj and Inder who moved to Nagpur a few years ago.

One of his brothers Kanwarlal is in Jacobabad while four brothers, Jagdish, Ashok, Kishor and Daulat, had left Pakistan 25 years ago to settle down in Nagpur. Sudham Chand was the eldest. His mother, too, is here for the past one year while his father is dead.

According to family members here, Chawla had moved the Pakistan SC three years ago seeking restoration of voting rights to minorities.

‘‘He was helped by people such as former speaker of Pakistan’s National Assembly Elahi Bukhsh Soomro,’’ Jagdish said. ‘‘He also valiantly fought for restoration of land which rightfully belonged to the Hindus,’’ he said.

Sudham Chand was elected a corporator in Jacobabad first in 1983 and then in 1987. In 1990, he bacame president of the Jacobabad PPP and in 1994 became its district chief. In 1996, during Benazir Bhutto’s reign, he was named the chief of Upper Sindh unit of the PPP, according to family members.

‘‘His killing has created a feeling of insecurity among Pakistan Hindus and the Government of India should do something about it,’’ Jagdish said.

Re harimau 487

Padmini is in NJ and apparently very sick, cancer or something like that. Kamala is also believed to be in NJ. Hey thanks to the old Bell Labs and its heavy southie employment, they all gravitated there.

Actually, the true dance teachers are still back. The ones here are either those who studied under them and/or charlatans. I know of a mediorcre music teacher who transformed herself into a dance teacher because of the fees she could command and the general stupidity of the parents. The fees for the arangetram can go up to 10 grand. Oh do I smell some kitchen and bathroom remodelling in here? :)

Zafar 484

heyyy wait a sec - this works both ways you know : )

aicha

Dear dost-mittar # 466, ``Muslims girls, on the other hand, are more likely to stick to their traditions.``

Dude that you are absolutely amazing is now clear.

I would be grateful if you could kindly give us more gyaan on the subject of traditions of Muslim girls, segregated broadly as follows:-

a) African-American Muslim girls.

b) African-South African Muslim girls.

c) African-rest of the continent Muslim girls.

d) Bangladeshi Muslim girls.

e) Indian Muslim girls.

f) Philipino Muslim girls.

g) Yugoslavian Muslim girls.

h) American pop singer and model Muslim girls.

i) BBC newsreader Muslim girls.

j) Friends of Zafar Muslim girls.

k) Friends of YLH Muslim girls.

l) Traffic policemen and meter maid Muslim girls.

m) Lollywood actress Muslim girls.

n) Saudi Arabian Muslim girls in Saudia.

o) Saudi Arabian Muslim girls not in Saudia.

p) Canary Islands Muslim girls.

q) Australian refugee status Muslim girls.

r) Jean-pant wearing type Muslim girls.

s) Squint eyed Muslim girls.

t) Supergirl wearing red undies outside type Muslim girls. (I was told she was a Muslim girl)

u) English song and burger eating type Muslim girls.

v) Doctor type Muslim girls. (Not nurses).

w) Turkish Bath in Japan type Muslim girls.

x) Sri Lankan soldier type Muslim girls.

y) Marrying Muslim cricketer and converting type Muslim girls.

z) Penguins, the types that slide on their stomach and get past the others on Discovery Channel.

Thank you.

Ref Rdesikan #: 487

[We know a professional bharatanatyam teacher out in the Island]

Is Padmini still living in New Jersey and teaching dance or has she moved back to India?

I know Kamala lives there and runs a dance school.

zafarsaab!

LOL..aap paan khatae hain? white white pointy jootae pehantae hain?:)

Ref: dance discussion:

we have just one dancer (i think), sheema kirmani who does the Bharatha Natyam..pls excuse me if i think its quite silly and highly boring to have to sit through...there was a performance last saturday at the PNCA i was dragged to where they had sheema, naheed akhtar and nighat chaudhry perform..(3 of the finer performers in pakistan)their genre is kathak and theyre quite brillaint at it..

i had wanted to learn kathak seriously as a kid but had to drop the idea because of a back problem :( make up by attending as many performances as i can :)

stuka and ali1:

you both should kill yourselves

re: eunuch

{{{[.... I have heard of a few married Hindu women who ran away with the handyman....

Oh??? I didn`t know your mom was Hindu. Now I get it...]

I was talking about a Khatri Hindu lady from military background who ran away with a handyman while visiting her son in Boston. I am sure you know if this incident?}}}

no, the incident was about a lady from lahore`s heera mandi area visiting her son in california (father unknown) who ran away with the gardener

aicha:

“Pls enlighten us about Lahore - so I will have something to talk about to my cousins !!”

…if its meat, lahoris will eat it :)….your cousins live in lhr?…

[aicha….forget zafarsaab…are u sure you’re not related to anNy?…:)]

”Unkind words, Madame. (whaaa????)

….i was referring to the love affair with food….btw, how’re the refugees’ protests going down with the public?…why do i get the feeling that a lot of them would be glad to see them deported?….

Re saminashah

gotta agree with you. Sure beats the crap out of beating the crap out of urstruly and co!

Re getting to see the dance, the Bharitiya Vidya Bhavan in NYC runs classes and often has these ``arangetrams`` or debut public performances by local kids--which can be held in various venues. There are not too many of these in a year, but they are essentially open to the public plus there`s often free khana, often a snack pack. Check with them--perhaps they have a website. Another place to catch these is the temple auditorium in Flushing [not to worry--you don`t have to go to the temple or via the temple to access this or the fine, fine cafeteria in its basement which serves the cheapest and best masala dosais, idlis, and utthapams in the metro area.]

There are a lot more of these dances in suburban NJ and NY. I`ve personally had to suffer from a couple of these shows. In other words, you`re not going to get professional quality dancing. It`s the effort that ought to be commended however. [what I do is go in late at around the scheduled chow time and then be sure to profusely complement the poor kid and proud parents.

We know a professional bharatanatyam teacher out in the Island and I believe she has a couple of arangetrams scheduled this year at the least--and a daughter of a good friend is planning one at the temple. If I come across any happening soon, I will drop a note in one of these boards for you.

Reply # 473 Stuka

[.... I have heard of a few married Hindu women who ran away with the handyman....

Oh??? I didn`t know your mom was Hindu. Now I get it...]

I was talking about a Khatri Hindu lady from military background who ran away with a handyman while visiting her son in Boston. I am sure you know if this incident?

Re: Max Mueller, people have challenged his dates for the ``Aryan invasion`` - but modern theory uses dates that are quite close for the ``Aryan migration`` (there was no invasion according to modern theory).

Anyway, T. Goldstucker, an expert on Panini, pointed out Max Muller`s chronology was based on the notion that the world was created in 4004 BC.

Mueller supposedly wrote the the Duke of Argyll in 1875 : I look upon the account of creation given in the Genesis as simply historical (the reference given is , Max Muller, Life and Letters, Vol I, edited by Georgina Muller, London; Longmans, p 481-82).

-Arun

Reply Aicha #471

``like I said to semipreciousme earlier - we very well could be but am not a memon!!``

Please accept my sympathy. Our hearts go out to you.

#469 ZAT

Bharatha Natyam wouldn`t look exciting even if performed in the nude. -I.S. Johar

Apparently, this is the most dynamic board on Chowk currently....Harimou, Rdesi, Sadna; do you know of good places in NYC to see classical South Asian dance? I know of only the performances taking place at the City Universities. Any suggestions would be appreciated...

regards

Btw, another awesome thread!

dost-mittar #479
``Since this is a muslim identity board, you should have added Indrani Rehman to this list:-)).``

Add Waheeda Rehman, too.

Zafar 471

like I said to semipreciousme earlier - we very well could be but am not a memon!!

aicha

Re ali1 #: 455

[Things have changed since you left your RSS shaka in the 60s.... I have heard of a few married Hindu women who ran away with the handyman....]

Obviously, you and I move in different social circles. I can understand that and I have no problem with it.

He who lies down with dogs, gets up with fleas.

By the way, that last line was NOT meant as a reference to your inter-species mating habits.

Ref sadna #: 472

[dost-mittar #467, harimou

Its amazing to hear that Ms Bali is still giving performances.]

No, she doesn`t. She is being coaxed into doing this.

Reply MacGupta # 475

Macguptaji

“Moreover, did you know, e.g., Max Mueller dated the ``Aryan invasion`` based on a chronology in which the Biblical date of creation is correct ? While modern scientists will reject that, that is not the issue - the effect of Max Mueller`s ideas in India is.”

This I did not know. It sounds like a joke…how is that people haven’t challenged the dating?

Zafarji :

My point of posting Dr. Morales` article was simply that Pakistanis who have trouble accepting idol-worshipping Hindus and their mythology among their ancestors might find it easier to accept murti-archana-walle Sanatani Dharmis with their sacred stories.

i.e., I think Pakistanis, very much more than Hindus themselves, who have swallowed the missionary view of Hindus.

I agree with you that the Bible as a whole is not accepted as historical - but e.g., what about the historicity of Moses ? Is not that usually assumed ?

Moreover, did you know, e.g., Max Mueller dated the ``Aryan invasion`` based on a chronology in which the Biblical date of creation is correct ? While modern scientists will reject that, that is not the issue - the effect of Max Mueller`s ideas in India is.

-Arun

Re Zafar and Harimou

``Btw – I just realised that this Bharath Natyam love-in is occuring on the Muslim Identity Crisis Board. Ha! What a nightmare for some...``

Funny you should bring that up.That was my very reaction when I sent my earlier message. I believe that Mrinalini Sarabhai is an Iyer, so there you go.

RE harimau

Yessir, did notice the kneejerk antibrahmin attitude in the article, but than, I`ve been used to so many of those, I tend to overlook them. A defense mechanism if you come from those parts, I suppose.

RE Bala, she might have made that statement, but all her friends and supporters were essentially brahmin and if I remember, her tamil sounded even that way. Her daughter who is/was a vocalist whose name I cant quite recall is married to an iyengar.

I will check out sangeetham later, but it sounds rather hilarious. If at all, the whole culture set up in Madras is pretty much free market and the only govt. influence is at the music college in Adyar. As you pointed out, it takes years of dedication and money to polish the skills, and it so happens that the ones who are doing it are the brahmins. Of course, the dravidian idiots will always find fault with stuff.

Did you know that the man with the retro shades aka kalaignar comes from the devdasi tradition. His mother or grandmother was a dancer and this is something that is glossed over. In the old days, the skilled women took to dance or music, and the men were music or dance teachers, and then some were barbers, as the former C.M. is occassionally maligned to be.

Ali # 1:

.... I have heard of a few married Hindu women who ran away with the handyman....

Oh??? I didn`t know your mom was Hindu. Now I get it...

dost-mittar #467, harimou
Its amazing to hear that Ms Bali is still giving performances. I remember a live dance performance I attended more than 10 years ago, actually more like 15. The auditorium was packed, the Governor was attending, and her musicians started up, but then had to keep singing merely, for several minutes because she wasn`t ready ! Finally she came on to stage and first, gave her musicians a smile and then she turned and gave the audience a smile! A 10000 watt smile even at her age then(late 50s surely) and everyone forgave her instantly, at least I did. Even as a layman admiring spectator though, I felt she showed her years while dancing.(but I havenot forgotten her smile).

Does this indicate that Sunjay Dutt`s career is over? Or does his mystique grow furthur? Is Chota Shakeel in Karachi? Is there a Barra Shakeel, also? And why is this important?

The mystery continues.......

Reply nasah #: 454

“What are zeds? -- Zee for Zafar miaN:-)”

Jee haaN. Zafar IZZ spelled with a zed.

“Reply semipreciousme # 453”

“aicha….forget zafarsaab…are u sure you’re not related to anNy?…:)”

Unkind words, Madame. (whaaa????) Khair, if Aichaji is a Memon, she probably is (related to me, in some manner)

Reply Macgupta # 456

Arun

Frank Morales’ article was very interesting – not sure I agreed with all his points, but the basic thrust was definitely relevant to how South Asians tend to perceive each other.

One thing he said which I definitely disagreed with:

“…the stories of the Garden of Eden, Noah`s Ark, Abraham, Moses, the Judges, David, etc. are unquestioningly accepted by most European historians - and interestingly by many Indian historians! - as being incontrovertible and established fact.”

I have never met a serious historian who unquestioningly accepted the Bible as historical fact.

Of relevance to another discussion I was embroiled in re: Sarasvati/Indus Valley Civilisation:

“What these Western scholars and their Westernized Indian counterparts called the ``mythical`` Sarasvati River, for example, was discovered to be a concrete geological fact in our century by no less empirical evidence than satellite photography; Krishna`s ``mythological`` city of Dvaraka was, likewise, impertinently discovered off the coast of Gujarat about two decades ago (anyone out there have a crane?). Despite these geological facts, the Puranas, Itihasas and traditional histories of India, unlike the Biblical ``myths``, are relegated by modern Euro-American scholars to the misty realm of ``myth``. Or more bluntly: primitive fables.”

So thank you! (Let he who has eyes…)

“The perennial use of politically surcharged words to stifle the aspirations of a people, to deflect the actual meaning of an action or concept, and to otherwise keep a people subservient to the dominant cultural mainstream is nothing new. Additionally, it is not new that the very people who have been the victims of such propangandistic terminology will inevitably come to adopt such terms in self-referential ways. We have the case of the Ethiopian Jews who for hundreds of years were termed “Falashas” - an incredibly derogatory term in the Ethiopian language - by those who persecuted them. After hundreds of years of such persecution, the Jews of Ethiopia even began to refer to themselves as the ``Falasha`` community. Such instances of the victims adopting the polemic terminology of their oppressors has been witnessed repeatedly over the long course of human history - among the Jews, Native Americans, European Pagans, and now among the so-called Hindus.”

Vaisai, “Christian” was apparently first coined by the Romans, and was used to refer in a derogatory way to the disciples of Jesus they were happily flinging to the lions. The term was adopted by these disciples, and thereby subverted. “So-called Hindus” have done so (with Hinduism, Idol, Myth) and more recently even “Queer” has been somewhat claimed by an oppressed group.

So I see the author’s point, but I also recognise the ability of groups to reassign meaning to words, thereby robbing them of their derogatory intent, and in a small way engaging in the subversion of the dominant paradigm thereby. (I suspect we may not agree on this – did we not have a similar exchange on sulekha not so long ago re: the importance of external perceptions to groups? :-)

Zafar

Reply Harimau # 451, Rdesikan #460

“… Valli is a fantastically gracious person. She has been among the top Bharath Natyam performers and doesn`t have an ounce of the prima donna in her.”

For some reason I thought of Shantha Rao when I read that. Heheheh…

“Have you seen Odissi dance? A variant of the Bharath Natyam, it is really fantastic.”

I have, and I must admit that it does not have the same impact for me as Bharath Natyam (or Mohini Attam or even good Kathak) does. So far BN is the fave – despite the costumes, jewellery, etc. it is fundamentally quite a pared down form, and that is what I think makes it classical.

Do you have any interest in Kathak? If so, have you seen Aditi Mangaldas dance?

“BTW, did you guys see the piece in outlook about a couple of weeks ago that talked about the state of the dance in Madras, and how what was originally a devadasi affaire got upmarket and became a brahmin exclusive? It mentions Alarmel Valli and Urmila Satyanarayan as the only two who have pierced this brahmin lock on the business. It ought to be in their online archives for sure.”

I haven’t read the article, but as far as I know, classical dance (called Temple Dancing?) was in a very diminished state (around 1900? Or so?) , the line between Devdasi and prostitute had become very blurry, and many dancers were forced by economic circumstance to compromise the art form (ie vulgarise it, or to emphasise some aspects of abhinaya over others). There was even a movement (in Madras?) to ban temple dancing as injurious to public morals or some such.

So it was quite a miracle that the art form survived at all, and great good fortune that it then interested women and girls from the most “respectable” families – people who set social rules rather than conformed to them. India being India, without this stamp of respectability given by people like Rukmini Devi, Mrinalini Sarabhai (not a Brahmin, I think), etc. none of India’s classical dance forms would enjoy the kind of popularity they do today – I mean these days it’s an extremely middle class thing for girls to take dance classes, in my grandmother’s youth it would have not been ok at all.

The original social groups involved in dance were not entirely overshadowed, however. Balasaraswati and Swarnasaraswati are both from a family whose members traditionally were dancers or nattuvanars. Though sometimes I think that what a woman needs to become a great classical dancer these days is (1) talent (2) determination (3) luck and (4) a private income ( mean, how many years does one have to study dance and take on all the outlays – singer, nattuvanar, etc. before an arangetram? Traditionally many many years, and even now quite a chunk of time). This automatically selects for people of monied, and probably educated, backgrounds.

“There used to be this legendary teacher called Vazhovoor Ramiah Pillai who used to live not too far away from our place and once in a while, we`d go to ogle the pretty girls going about their dancing lessons…Talk about a wasted childhood.”

Doesn’t sound like a waste, in fact sounds like what a lot of people did, back in those innocent days in the Homeland.

Btw – I just realised that this Bharath Natyam love-in is occuring on the Muslim Identity Crisis Board. Ha! What a nightmare for some...

Ref Rdesikan #: 460

[Re Zafar/Harimau the bharatnatyam jig

BTW, did you guys see the piece in outlook about a couple of weeks ago that talked about the state of the dance in Madras, and how what was originally a devadasi affaire got upmarket and became a brahmin exclusive? It mentions Alarmel Valli and Urmila Satyanarayan as the only two who have pierced this brahmin lock on the business. It ought to be in their online archives for sure.]

Sure I read that article.

What these people miss is that the first person out of the middle-class and not belonging to the Devadasi tradition who learnt Bharath Natyam is Kamala (Baby Kamala and later, Kumari Kamala and still later Srimathi Kamala Laxman). The greatest caste prejudice in Tamil Nadu is exhibited by non-brahmins who have the knife out for everybody below their own caste. By the early 1930s, the devadasi tradition was dying out in Tamil Nadu`s temples and Bharath Natyam was in serious danger of being lost as an art form for want of people learning it. It took Kamala`s desire to learn Bharath Natyam and her parents` willingness to overcome societal prejudices (that every dancer is a prostitute) for Bharath Natyam to become an art form accepted by the common man. Kamala was, and still is, the standard by which all dancers are measured. Kamala represented India in government-to-government exchange of cultural programmes in various countries such as the USA, UK, USSR and several countries of Europe and the Commonwealth. With the wide recognition she brought to the art form, to India and to herself, young girls in India clamored to learn Bharath Natyam. When you had a Brahmin girl like Kamala dancing, one could not deny his little daughter dance lessons on the basis that it is the art of prostitutes. Even that extreme Brahmin basher EV Ramaswamy Naicker has acknowledged that it was the Brahmin girls who rescued Bharath Natyam from extinction.

The Outlook article is pathetic... it is the usual left-wing and DK/DMK crap that all evil in India comes from Brahmins and Brahminism. In fact, the article says that Brahmins sanitized Bharath Natyam by bringing in devotion to God (Bhakti) as the sole emotion, eliminating love and passion which used to be the dominant themes. This is pure BS because if you understand the lyrics of padams and javalis such as ``Sakhi prana``, you will find that this is about a girl pining for her lover. These lyrics happen to be in Telugu and I have had dance teachers in North America asking for translations so that they can teach their students the correct facial expression. Let me tell you, some of Jayadeva`s Ashtapadis were denounced in his own time as being erotic (and they are, to such an extent that the translations of the lyrics are not printed in music textbooks even today) and they routinely form part of a dance program today. Kamala has danced to several of Subramanya Bharathi`s poems in which the girl pines for Lord Krishna.

The joke of course is that the article itself sanitized Balasaraswathi`s quote on Brahmin dancers. According to the article, Balasaraswathi said that Brahmin women are only good enough to stay in the kitchen and cook for their husbands. She is reported to have actually said, ``What do these chaste Brahmin women know about passion? One has to be a devadasi to be able to know passion and to express passion correctly.`` If this version, which was printed in an interview several years back, is correct, at least Balasaraswathi took pride in her descent from devadasis as opposed to all those Chettiyars and Mudaliars of Tamil Nadu who are trying hard to improve their social rank by holding down the lower castes.

As far the Brahmin lock of Bharath Natyam, I can only think of Kamala Laxman, Padma Subrahmanyam and Chitra Visweswaran as the premier dancers of Brahmin descent with nationwide renown. You also have Alarmel Valli, the Shantha and Dhananjayan duo, Mallika Sarabhai, Mrinalini Sarabhai, Samjukta Panigrahi, Sonal Mansingh and a few North Indian women who have a national/international reputation. I am not even including artistes from Andhra such as Vempatti Chinna Sathyam in this list. The actresses Lalitha, Padmini and Ragini were excellent dancers though only Padmini is well known in the film world. In fact, several women have used their training in Bharath Natyam to conquer the film world including Vyjayanthimala and Hema Malini though the last two will be likely denounced for their Brahmin descent.

If Kalakshetra is denounced as the vipers` nest of Brahmin domination, what prevents these people from setting up their own schools of dance? After all, the Dhananjayans have their own dance school and the Pandanallur and Vazhuvoor traditions live on in Madras in the form of dance schools run by dancers who have learnt from traditional gurus of these schools of dance.

The fact is that it takes enormous dedication to rech the top of the heap. Just because someone went to 5 years of dance school, she can`t expect to be a member of the cultural troupe representing India. Entitlements and quotas may work in admission to medical colleges but at least ICCR ensures that the really good artistes are the only ones they will sponsor for foreign tours on government money.

Just ask these idiots why there was not a single dancer available during the 1940s for dance sequesnces in movies other than Kamala? Why did the Chettiar-run AVM Studios have to hire Kamala and then Vyjayanthimala for movies until Padmini came along in the early 50s as a competition to Vyjayanthimala? What prevented all these thayolis from sending their daughters to learn dance, until of course thay saw Kamala and Yamini going off on international tours? And what actually prevents their daughters from rising to the top except their own incompetence?

By the way, on www.sangeetham.com a brahmin is supporting the Outlook article and calling for the elimination of Brahmin domination of Carnatic music.

Hobbs: Something tells me ur ACTUALLY asking me to read that post of yours that took up one full page.

Lemme make a deal with u then...

Make a brief summary of that post. Then make a summary of your summary. Now we`re down to roughly 5000 words. Summarize that again till ur at 1000, then provide your 10 best arguments (no longer then 3 lines each). Then summarize your points once more and Ill read it. Deal?

#465 :

Did you read a reply to the Outlook article in

the Indian Express ?

http://www.indian-express.com/ie20020129/ed5.html

Re Zafar/Harimau the bharatnatyam jig

BTW, did you guys see the piece in outlook about a couple of weeks ago that talked about the state of the dance in Madras, and how what was originally a devadasi affaire got upmarket and became a brahmin exclusive? It mentions Alarmel Valli and Urmila Satyanarayan as the only two who have pierced this brahmin lock on the business. It ought to be in their online archives for sure.

There used to be this legendary teacher called Vazhovoor Ramiah Pillai who used to live not too far away from our place and once in a while, we`d go to ogle the pretty girls going about their dancing lessons. My dad is a serious carnatic buff and I remember people like Balasaraswathi, semmangudi and the like coming home. But then, much to my regret now, I was totally into rock and shut myself off completely from Indian music and dance. Talk about a wasted childhood.

semipreciousme

: ) I think we very well might be !! Pls enlighten us about Lahore - so I will have something to talk about to my cousins !!

aicha

harimau - you make Hindu women sound more virtous than Muslim women. ?????. The funny part is you have left reality out of the equation completely. Reality is - Hindu women arent these docile wallflowers - anymore than Muslim women are jumping to remarry their divorced husbands. I hope that clears up that : )

``It`s definitely spelled with two zeds.``(Zafar)

What are zeds? -- Zee for Zafar miaN:-)

Perhaps the ancient heritage, which Pakistanis are heir to, but which they are extremely uncomfortable with, must be grappled with better words. The following article by Dr. Frank Morales illustrates what I mean (posted on IndianCivilization), because the same words are used by the Muslim discourse on Hinduism.

-Arun Gupta

Word As Weapon:

The Polemically Charged Use of Terminology in Euro-American Discourse on Hinduism

Dr. Frank Gaetano Morales

An Introduction: The Power of the Word

The inherent power of the word is a phenomenon that has been both omnipresent and essential throughout the long histories of literature, philosophy, religion and politics. The power of words has always been recognized for both its potentially constructive, as well as its devastatingly destructive, force. In the Vedic era, the potency of sabda (or the divine word) was lauded for its soteriological, liberating properties, as well as for its role as a means of epistemic insight into the nature of the Absolute. The Word both liberated and revealed - and both of these functions were accomplished via mantra, sound frequencies precisely sequenced in such patterns as to most optimally utilize the inherent sakti - or potency - of sound vibration. The divine word in the form of mantra could heal illness, relieve suffering and deliver freedom. Many millennia later, we find similar parallels in the Biblical literature, in which the Word is seen as being ontologically non-differentiated from the natura esse, or essential nature, of God. ``In the beginning was the Word``, the Gospel of John assures us, ``and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.``

The converse side of the positive power of words is seen in the destructive employment of words used, not to convey truth or to heal, but to obscure and deconstruct reality. Whether we speak of the sinister slogans of Joseph Goebbles or the propaganda ministries of defunct Stalinist states, words have been used with pointed polemic accuracy throughout the long history of human discourse. Words have always been employed by one group of individuals to control and delegitimize the political, social and philosophical freedoms of other groups. Academia has, unfortunately, not been free from the use of such ideologically charged - even if infinitely more subtle - polemic terminology. Such biased and politically motivated scholarship has led in the last few decades to the necessary creation of such fields as African-American Studies, Women’s Studies and Holocaust Studies as new academic institutions designed to balance previously perpetrated intellectual injustices.

In the following, I will explore only a few of the more insidious terms used specifically throughout the history of South Asian Studies that have been traditionally used to denote various phenomena and features of the Hindu religion. Such words have been used to obscure the factual meaning of many philosophical, theological, social and ritual phenomena found within the Hindu context. I will proceed by outlining 1) the commonly accepted academic terms for these phenomena, 2) the proper indigenous view of the actual nature of these phenomena, and 3) I will offer several alternative terminological devices that will hopefully be more accurate indicators of the full nature and extent of these phenomena.

The Right to Self-Referential Terminology

The first two terms that we will examine are the terms usually used to indicate the overarching spiritual/cultural matrix of traditional, indigenous South Asian religion itself. These are the very terms ``Hindu/Hinduism`` themselves. The term ``Hinduism`` is not a term that is inherent to the religion itself. Rather, the term was first coined by individuals who were culturally and perspectivally extrinsic to the culture in order to designate the ancient Vedic spiritual culture as a primarily geographic and ethnic phenomenon. The terms ``Hindu/Hinduism`` are not self-referential terms that the practitioners of the Vedic world-view chose for themselves. These words are not attested to in any of the ancient Vedic or Classical Sanskrit literatures, or even in the many local dialects until the medieval era. It was not until the 19th century under the rule of the British Raj that these dual terms even acquired legal significance on a national scale in India.

The actual term that the Vedic tradition uses to refer to itself is ``Sanatana Dharma``. While many non-Hindu academicians have no doubt encountered this term before, not every South Asian Specialist is necessarily as familiar with the full philosophical implications of its meaning. Thus it is necessary to explicate the term’s full meaning. The Sanskrit word ``Sanatana`` denotes that which always is, that which has neither beginning nor end, that which is eternal. The term ``Dharma``, on the other hand, is a term that can be properly rendered into the English language only with the greatest of difficulty. This is the case because there is no one corresponding English term that fully renders both the denotative and the connotative meanings of the term with maximal sufficiency. The denotative meaning of ``Dharma`` is an essential attribute of x object - an attribute whose absence renders the object devoid of either rational meaning or existential significance. To illustrate the full meaning of this term: ``it is the dharma of water to be wet``. Without the essential attribute of wetness, water loses all meaning. Likewise, it is the dharma of fire to be hot, etc. It is, however, when we come to the connotative meaning of the term ``Dharma`` that we then leave the concerns of Vaisesika categoriology behind and then enter the realm of the overtly philosophical.

For, according to the tradition itself, the very empirical cosmos in which we find ourselves currently situated also has its own inherent dharma, its essential attributive nature. In this more cosmological sense, the term dharma is designed to communicate the view that there is an underlying structure of natural law that is inherent in the very constitution of Being itself. Thus, if we needed to render the entire term ``Sanatana Dharma`` into English, we can cautiously translate it as ``The Eternal Natural Way``. The term ``Sanatana Dharma`` more accurately communicates the axiomatic metaphysical nature of this concept than do the terms “Hindu/Hinduism”. Thus, when the terms ``Hindu/Hinduism`` are repeatedly appealed to by both Euro-American and Indian academicians, we fall very short from fully communicating the metaphysical, ethical and ontological components of the world-view of Sanatana Dharma. The former - i.e. Hinduism - is a religious tradition, which finds itself currently tied to ethnic, national and social concerns. The latter - Sanatana Dharma - is a science of Being in a purely philosophical - and therefore highly rational - sense.

The Misapplication of Western Theological Terms to Distinctly South Asian Religious Phenomena

Having examined the problematic issues of a very broad misapplied academic term, I will now briefly examine several more specific terms that have been misemployed in the 200 year history of South Asian Studies. The first of these more specific polemically charged words is the term “idol”. This word has been repeatedly misused by purported scholars of Hinduism - and again, by both Euro-American, as well as Indian scholars - and it has been continuously and unthinkingly used by even religious Hindus to this very day. At least once a month I get notices from Hindu temples inviting me to “idol” installations, pujas to the “idol”, etc.

Unbeknownst to the vast majority of Hindu practitioners, the term “idol” is not a neutral term meant only to signify the objective reality of a statue or some other focal point used as a means of meditation upon the Divine, but it is a term that is historically devoid of any positive connotations. First arising from a purely Christian/Islamic religious and cultural context, the theologically derived terms “Idol/Idolatry” were quite clearly designed to signify the misguided worship of the graven images of fictitious gods. In the Old Testament, idol worshippers are condemned to death. In the Koran, the worshipers of idols are relegated to the category of the demonic. The theological baggage attendant upon the word “idol” was understandably imported into the nascent field of Indology by the 18th and 19th century European founders of modern Vedic studies. Thus, over time, what originated as a purely religious term specifically meant to designate a false practice and erroneous theological view, progressed to being accepted as an academic term meant to describe the practices and views of a “foreign” religion. In turn, tragically, the greater Hindu community has itself now thoroughly embraced this term as a legitimate word meant to convey one of the most sacred and integral mechanisms of Hindu worship. Unfortunately, when a Christian theologian, a Muslim cleric or a colonialist-tempered scholar is using the term “idol”, they are interpreting a specific religious phenomenon in a radically different manner than is the typical Hindu worshipper.

For those scholars who have allowed themselves to develop a more sophisticated and objective understanding of the phenomenon - that is, one that arises from an indigenous and thus an insider perspective - it becomes rather apparent that the practice that is occurring via the process of archa-puja is something radically distinct from the stereotyped image of idol worship that is painted by rabidly iconoclastic ideologies. Followers of Sanatana Dharma are not blindly worshipping false idols, but are using divine images whose forms have been revealed via the non-mediated intuitive perception of the Absolute experienced by the rsis. Moreover, such images are used primarily as focal points designed as aids to meditative awareness. Archa-puja is not a superstition, is not a debasement of religion, is not fetishism, but is a tried and tested soteriological device. This being the case, I urge both scholars of Hindu Studies, as well as everyday practitioners of Sanatana Dharma, to refrain from using the derogatory term “idol” and to instead use one of the more culturally sensitive, and academically accurate terms that is used by the tradition itself. Such terms include: murti, archa, etc. Take your pick.

Misdefining Dharma as a Lie: Objective Scholarship or Bigoted Polemic?

The next term that we will examine is the word “myth”. The related terms ``myth``, ``mythology``, ``mythological``, etc., have had an interesting history and a very pointed polemic use in Euro-American discourse on Sanatana Dharma. That the terms are rife with very negative connotations is doubted by very few. The way the terms are used today both within academia, as well as by the general public, is to denote something which is untrue, false, a lie, ``primitive`` (i.e., not Euro-American). Several months ago, during a visit to the dentist`s office, I saw a pamphlet on the table called ``The Myths About Sexually Transmitted Diseases``. The ultimate question that needs to be determined is: is it really of any scholarly necessity that such powerfully negative terms also be associated with the sacred stories, teachings and history of Sanatana Dharma?

Polemically speaking, one culture`s ``myth`` is another culture`s sacred history...and visa versa. The academic field of the study of ``mythological`` literature was founded by 18th century European Classicists who took their misconceptions about their own Greco-Roman pre-Christian religious and cultural heritage and attempted to then apply these misconceptions to all contemporary non-Christian cultures - including that of India. These founders of ``mythology`` studies - including such individuals as Sir George Grey, Rudolph Otto and Karl Kerenyi - were convinced, as is unarguably evident in their writings, that the entire realm of religious story could be clearly demarcated into two radically distinct camps:

1) ``Myth``, that is the ``primitive`` stories about gods, goddesses, spirits, demons, magic and mysticism, etc. found throughout all of the indigenous and non-Biblical cultures of the world. Such stories are all considered to be certainly no more than ignorant ``pre-scientific`` attempts by ``primitive peoples`` (THEIR words, not mine) to come to terms with and explain such frightening mysteries as natural weather phenonema. The study of such mythologically ridden cultures was then relegated to the nascent fields of anthropology, folk-lore and aesthetic studies.

2) The second category that religious stories were placed in was termed ``History``, that is Biblical literature and all supposedly factual accounts of events proceeding such literature to be found throughout the history of Europe and the post-Columbian Americas. In order to study these supposed historical facts, Euro-American scholars employed a different battery of academic disciplines entirely, including philosophical, ethical, literary, psychological, etc. The only overlapping exception being the field of philology, which was employed to research both the glorious history of Europe, as well as the primitive utterings of the Rg Veda.

There is the wonderful saying that we have all encountered that assures us that ``history`` is written by the victors. Consequently, the stories of the Garden of Eden, Noah`s Ark, Abraham, Moses, the Judges, David, etc. are unquestioningly accepted by most European historians - and interestingly by many Indian historians! - as being incontrovertible and established fact. This, even though the evidence for these supposed historical facts are in many cases no stronger, or even less so, than the evidence supporting the historicity of the ancient stories of Sanatana Dharma. What these Western scholars and their Westernized Indian counterparts called the ``mythical`` Sarasvati River, for example, was discovered to be a concrete geological fact in our century by no less empirical evidence than satellite photography; Krishna`s ``mythological`` city of Dvaraka was, likewise, impertinently discovered off the coast of Gujarat about two decades ago (anyone out there have a crane?). Despite these geological facts, the Puranas, Itihasas and traditional histories of India, unlike the Biblical ``myths``, are relegated by modern Euro-American scholars to the misty realm of ``myth``. Or more bluntly: primitive fables.

If we would venture to speculate that what has brought this stark double standard about has been nothing less than European racism and intellectual colonialism, coupled with a strong element of Hindu inferiority complex, we would not be far from the mark! The terms ``myth``, ``mythology``, ``mythological``, etc., have been used as a powerful weapon for decades as a way of delegitimizing the world-view of Sanatana Dharma, as well as the Hindu and Indian way of life.

Whether such unscholarly use of these otherwise legitimate terms will be allowed to continue as a weapon against the sacred stories of Vedic culture, or whether the use of such terms will be relegated to the same dust-bin of other such derogatory terms is up to both the greater community of ethical scholars, as well as practitioners of Sanatana Dharma. Such terms should be absolutely anathema to every sincere and self-respecting scholar when speaking about the sacred stories of Sanatana Dharma.

As a more positive alternative to these terms, I propose that South Asianists who study the religions of South Asia approach their purported object of research in a similar manner as do scholars who study many other formally oppressed non-Christian cultures (such as those who study Native American tribes). In these fields the religious stories of the subjects under study are often referred to by the more culturally sensitive term ``Sacred Stories``. We can later, as informed scholars, debate over the actual meaning of these stories - whether they are literal history (which in many cases they very clearly are), or meant to be taken allegorically or metaphorically. Let us all, in any case be in agreement that these Sacred Stories must never be degraded again by terming them ``myth``.

The Depolemicizing of South Asian Studies

The perennial use of politically surcharged words to stifle the aspirations of a people, to deflect the actual meaning of an action or concept, and to otherwise keep a people subservient to the dominant cultural mainstream is nothing new. Additionally, it is not new that the very people who have been the victims of such propangandistic terminology will inevitably come to adopt such terms in self-referential ways. We have the case of the Ethiopian Jews who for hundreds of years were termed “Falashas” - an incredibly derogatory term in the Ethiopian language - by those who persecuted them. After hundreds of years of such persecution, the Jews of Ethiopia even began to refer to themselves as the ``Falasha`` community. Such instances of the victims adopting the polemic terminology of their oppressors has been witnessed repeatedly over the long course of human history - among the Jews, Native Americans, European Pagans, and now among the so-called Hindus.

Consequently, the use of inaccurate, and often consciously and maliciously distorted, terminology has been a double-edged source of oppressive discourse. The use of such terms has been made use of by an intellectually lethargic tradition of South Asian scholars who view the religion of Sanatana Dharma, not as the noble and vibrant living tradition that it is, but as their own personal academic plaything. On the other hand, followers of Sanatana Dharma have, in turn, blindly accepted these non-indigenous and inaccurate terms and adopted them as their own. Thus, while the bulk of the blame must placed squarely on the shoulders of the oppressors, the victims too need to free themselves of a colonialist-induced mentality of inferiority and acceptance of their oppression. It is my fervent hope, and I know it is the hope of the majority of ethical scholars of South Asian religions, that we will soon witness the beginning of a new way of viewing the nature, history and future of Sanatana Dharma.

Every revolution, however, begins with thoroughly grasping the power of the word.

Copyright Frank Morales, 2002

This article can be forwarded only in unaltered form and with due citation of author and source.

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Reply # 441 harimau

[However, you need to know something about Hindu women.

Even if they are married to the worst misogynist on earth, they will not say that in their next life they want to marry a different person. Because, for them, life continues when they are re-born and marrying a different person would be infidelity to their current husband.]

I have read this mumbo jumbo elsewhere. Things have changed since you left your RSS shaka in the 60s.... I have heard of a few married Hindu women who ran away with the handyman.... but you can live in your time warp, no problemo!

aicha….forget zafarsaab…are u sure you’re not related to anNy?…:)

Ref dost-mittar #: 416

[We poor folks in Ottawa can`t afford any of these artists (sigh!!)]

How about marking your calendar for the first week of April? Rumor is Vyjayanthimala Bali will be performing in Toronto. No filmi stuff... just classical Bharath Natyam.

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 447

[Clout? Actually it sounds like laziness! What do you mean you never could get around to doing that? Thank goodness that at least Valli behaved decently…]

Not laziness! It is a question of being in Madras and knowing if Valli would be home or touring because of her programme! But as you pointed out Valli is a fantastically gracious person. She has been among the top Bharath Natyam

performers and doesn`t have an ounce of the prima donna in her.

[I have not yet had the pleasure of seeing Padma Subhramanyam dance, but hopefully will some day.]

It will be an intellectual treat.

[Re: flexibility etc.: age doesn’t stop Bharat Natyam dancers, it just changes how they dance – Balasaraswati ended up just sitting and doing mudras and facial expressions (what’s the word here?) to the music, but apparently that was as powerful as full on tillana type stuff by younger dancers. Perhaps what older dancers lose in physical ability they gain in Abhinaya?]

You are completely correct about that. Since one aspect of the dance (foot movements) is no longer possible, they become teachers and tend to concentrate on `bhava` (facial expressions) and `abhinaya` (hand gestures). I had the privilege of attending a lecture by an older Kalakshetra dance teacher and she was just wonderful. I have also seen women dance well into their early 50s and the good ones are still able to do their tillanas. Though you can see that they are winded at the end of each piece. Dance is a very vigorous art and a good dancer is an extremely good athlete.

It is indeed great that dance has been rescued from obscurity i