The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

Bengali # 412

Yeah I agree, this place stinks like a bengali mosli bazar-I should get outta here-but you know what, I was dragged into it. Oh boy! this manipulative cleopatra syndrome.

satyavadi #376 you write ``Nehru and Indira were both known to be not particually inhibited about sex.``

My 2-taka comments, as requested: Life`s too short to be totally dedicated to the service (or disservice, depending on your assessment of what they accomplished) of humanity. I hope for their sake therefore that these two souls used to have a vigorous, smashing good time in beds with their respective mates, without feeling guilty of the resulting climactic outcome.

re mullah sahib 407

`...the answers look with the bullshit that saminashah hurld towards me. `

So now you are relying on the words of a phorren woman to answer an adha-hindu`s simple questions? Ah, the shame...:(

U know there is a world out there other than Kashmir. Take a walk, smell the flowers, have drink, relax. I mean, Urstruly, you really haven`t liberated an inch of Kashmir through Chowk, have you?

Re: Urstruly

You did not give a simple `yes or no` -- here is what Zafar Al Talib had requested: `Simple yes and no will suffice for each of these questions`. I don`t think that you met the criteria.

saminashah #396
Samina, in all societies its sometimes possible to develop an oversized ego which prevents people from thinking straight because they are constrained to make many detours to feed the ego. Calling names is one of the detours.

Let me explain with an example about some of these detours in the Indo-Pak context.

An armed group named Harkat-ul-Mujahideen became active in Indian Jammu and Kashmir in the 90s. Not unnaturally, some members are caught and imprisoned by Indians, including a Pakistani Masood Azhar.

Meanwhile this group allegedly kidnapped 6 foreigners on vacation in J&K and demanded release of their jailed associates. It didnot work, they apparently killed these foreigners(one escaped, anothers head was cut off, rest are untraced for 6 years). The US declared Harkat-ul-Mujahiddeen as terrorists after this incident. The group changed its name to Harkat-ul-Ansar.

Next, this group attempted some more kidnappings in around N. Delhi for the same reason, namely release of its members from Indian jails They take the kidnappees( Americans/Europeans) to a house in Saharanpur, UP. The police busts them, frees those kidnapped and the conspirators are caught including on Omar Shiekh, a well-educated British Pakistani. (his diary as written in Tihar jail with details of his activities was published in an Indian newspaper, to general Pakistani disbelief)

Now Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh were in Indian jails. Next we have Masood Azhar`s brother and other associates hijack a plane from Kathmandu and hold the passengers hostage in Kandahar, demanding release of Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh among others. The demands are whittled down to release of 3 people. Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh were released, and the hijackers who had killed one passenger, are also allowed to go free by the Taliban and not pursued by the Pakistani authorities, either. Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh and the thrid guy are not apprehended either, and allowed to enter Pakistan.

Masood Azhar`s brother accused of being one of the hijackers is not apprehended by Pakistan, even when Indian authorities make a good enough case against him to convince Interpol and begin prosecution in absentia. Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh are not apprehended and are seen moving around in Pakistan. Masood Azhar gets married, addresses public meetings attended by lakhs of people in Karachi/Lahore threatening jihad against India, meets Bin Laden, uses Laden`s funding and starts a new group Jaish-e-Mohammad which has many former members of Harkat-ul-Mujahiddeen. Masood and Jaish-e-Mohammad proclaim their intent to wage jihad against India. Pakistani authorities do nothing.

Sometime in the last two years, Jaish-e-Mohammad tries to bomb a site in Ayodhya. Two Pakistani activists are killed by Indian police in UP and Jaish acknowledges their deaths and issues a statement threatening jihad all over India in revenge. Lashkar-e-Toiba has already proclaimed its own jihad, and publicly celebrates its attack on Red Fort in N. Delhi in which 3 people were killed(they do so even now on their website www.markazdawa.org). LeT leaders issue threats against the Indian Prime Minister, saying they will assassinate him. Pakistani authorities do exactly nothing about all this, except saying such statements get unwanted negative publicity for Pakistan(the statements are condemned, the intent is not).

But this plain sequence of events is not plain enough for conspiracy theorists for whom Pakistanis are victims of Indian duplicity.

Attacks continue in Kashmir. There was a notable incident on Jammu railway station where 9 people were killed in fire from gunmen. There was an incident when dozens of laborers from Bihar are shot dead in their sleep. These incidents and numerous others get reported in world newspapers almost daily but ordinary Pakistanis and their government are not paying attention, they seem to do so only if an American politician comments on the incident.

After Sept 11, among other incidents there is an attack on Srinagar assembly. 30+ people killed. Given the daily incidents for the last 3-4 years, this is not a huge toll, though the target is new(there have been attacks at Srinagar airport though). A Pakistani newspaper the News quotes Masood Azhar taking responsibility for the incident. What is new post Sept 11 is that Powell is asked to comment on the incident. Later, after Powell comments on the incident, Azhar`s organisation retracts his statement and India is blamed for the attack(based on who benefits?)
(Meanwhile, in US bombing of Kabul, many Harkat-ul-Mujahiddeen members who had gone to support the Taliban/ Bin Laden were killed )

Next comes the Parliament attack in Dec 13. There is speculation that the attackers wanted to hold MPs hostage. Again, the Americans are asked to comment and condemn the incident. For only this reason, even given the history of attacks by Jaish-e-Mohammad nor Lashkar-e-Toiba, even given the encouragement and support that Pakistanis have offered these organisations through all ups and downs and Indo-Pak summits to advance their openly stated goal of jihad against India, even given the statements of those arrested and other evidence, India is still held responsible.

Now a similar group seems to have taken a Western journalist hostage, and its obvious the Pakistani discomfort at this incident is closely proportional to the amount of international media attention. When a dead body turned out not to be Daniel Pearl but some other white/near-white guy, the News editor on Fox said, `its not Pearl, its an ordinary murder`. But if it had been Pearl, I can bet India would be held responsible because who benefits by Pearl`s death? Apparently, Pakistani murderers and kidnappers have a finely-tuned IR antenna and only commit those murders which will not cause international incidents.

Now anyone capable of thinking straight would ask, if Pakistan has in the past refused to arrest known hijackers of planes and kidnappers, and allowed them to participate in its public affairs and provided shelter and support to their continued operations at the cost of good relations with India, is that a Indian conspiracy too? Why blame India only when these people continue operations as before and cause international incidents?

(These questions are not meant for you Samina, you think straighter than 100 other chowk posters and then some :))

Further to 406

So Mr. Aadha Hindu, do you see how ridiculous the answers look with the bullshit that saminashah hurld towards me. (the answers are cut and paste of her replies).

Now consider this:

Suppose, I am a foreign militant fighting alongwith local militants against an oppresive army and government. The things that I need most in my operation will be: food, hideout, guidance as for where the targets are and how to get away after a hit, intelligence to plan and execute an ambush etc. For that I would need full cooperation of the local population. And I cannot get that by raping my hosts daughters and by murdering his sons, or can I?

THe truth of matter is that when Hindu military death squads get information from their ``informers`` that there are militants hiding in certain village they come alogwith masked ``informers``, line up villagers, ``informers`` point out to the villagers who hid the ``militants``. The death squad either fry the villagers right there or bring them and their women and children to their investigation dungeons. This modis operandi is elaborated in the book ``Kashmir, Happy Valley, the Valley of Death by Dr.(forgetting the name).

I dont know why I wrote this and spent 5 minutes for a aadha hindu like yourself who deserves a kick on the behind in fact, but I did. I do beleive that people who take pride in advance sciences like rocket propelled monkeys and medical sciences like elephant head tranplants are capable of better common sense. Or are they?

Mr. aadha hindu # 398

Your questions and my answers:

Q.1 Do you or dont you support and endorse the murder and intimidation of kashmiris by Muslim Militants from Pakistan?

Ans. I am clearly against state sponsored violence and repression against civillians. Once again, retaliatory violence, in my opinion, serves little purpose.

Q.2 Do you or dont you suport and endorse the rape of Kashmiri women by Muslim Militants from Pakistan?

Ans. Obviously rape is an unacceptable crime, whether it is part of state sponsored violence or the act of a depraved individual.

US`s double standards on fighting terror in South Asia

Asia Times

By Ehsan Ahrari

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=168500

The December 13, 2001, terrorist attack on India`s parliament underscores the fact that the rules for nation-states responding to such acts might have changed for the United States, but not for other countries.

When India`s parliament - its ultimate symbol of democracy - was attacked, it was natural for leaders in New Delhi to assume that they would be able to operate under rules of retaliation similar to those that the United States used in the aftermath of the September 11 attacks on its symbols of military and economic power. The United States, after giving three weeks to the Taliban to hand over al-Qaeda terrorists, whom it accused of carrying out those acts, initiated a military campaign that, along with uprooting the al-Qaeda terrorist network, also dismantled Taliban rule in Afghanistan. The Bush administration did not distinguish between Mullah Mohammad Omar, the supreme leader of the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden, the head of al-Qaeda, and has continued to hunt them.

India thought that it would behave similarly by carrying out a massive build-up of force, to be followed by military operations at least against the terrorist camps on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control (LOC, which serves as a de facto border between the two South Asian neighbors). But the government of India was in for a rude awakening. While the United States steadfastly refused to reveal evidence of al-Qaeda`s involvement in the September 11 attacks, it demanded India`s evidence of Pakistani involvement in the December 13 terrorist attack. The fact that even some Indian journalists publicly questioned India`s claim that that was a Pakistani-sponsored attack did not help New Delhi`s case.

To add insult to injury, the United States put pressure on India not to pursue a military option by attacking Pakistan. So it became clear that the use of military power to fight terrorism was an option that the United States reserved only for itself. India certainly was not going to be allowed to operate under similar rules.

But there seem to be more frustrations in store for India. Before September 11, New Delhi was under the impression that it was unquestionably emerging as a major strategic partner of the United States, and the era of America`s previous treatment of India and Pakistan as two ``equals`` of South Asia was over. India was shocked by the new significance that the Bush administration gave Pakistan in the military campaign in Afghanistan. Leaders in New Delhi feel that their country - one of the major victims of terrorism - instead of emerging as a major player and as a partner of the United States, has been wrongly sidelined. Instead, Pakistan - which in India`s eye is a leading supporter of terrorism in Kashmir - instantaneously became a major stalwart in the US-led war in Afghanistan, while continuing to support for terrorism against India.

What is even more frustrating for the Indian government is that Pakistan has become the focus of economic and political ``rewards`` not only from the United States, but also from Japan and other European countries. The newly acquired international respectability of Pakistan remains a major source of irritation for New Delhi.

It is difficult to dismiss India`s frustrations as mere self-promoting rhetoric. Even though the United States was developing a strategic partnership with it before the September 11 incidents, that focus became of secondary concern afterward. As much as India`s leadership understands the hypocrisies of realpolitik - whereby the United States is chiefly driven in pursuit of its own strategic objectives in Afghanistan, while remaining unmindful of India`s regional preferences - it very much resents being told by the United States to pursue an option which Washington did not itself pursue after September 11. Needless to say, India has been acutely disappointed that the condemnation of the act against its parliament was not followed by strong diplomatic measures against Pakistan.

India also feels that it was unable to attract maximum benefits for itself while the United States remained focused on South Asia. India knows full well that US involvement in the subcontinent will be drastically reduced once bin Laden is eliminated and America scales back its military presence. The Bush administration has consistently refused to get the United States involved in ``nation building`` in Afghanistan, thereby reducing the chances of a lasting, high-profile US presence in the region. India reads that position to mean that the game of power politics will resurge with a vengeance in Afghanistan`s environs in the near future. That means Pakistan will reemerge as a major kingmaker. As long as that ``kingmaking`` does not bring another jihadist regime to power, Washington will not object, because, in the final analysis, it does not matter to the United States whether Pakistan or India has a lot of influence in Afghanistan. In fact, Pakistan has an established record of kowtowing to America`s strategic interests in Afghanistan since the late 1970s.

As the military campaign in Afghanistan winds down, India is also concerned that the United States might not be that much focused on fighting terrorism, notwithstanding the reiterations of the Bush administration to the contrary. India is fully aware of how complicated and multidimensional the strategic interests of that superpower really are. And any American distraction from fighting terrorism in South Asia, India feels, will deprive it of the opportunity to constrain Pakistani shenanigans in Indian-ruled Kashmir.

While most of India`s frustrations regarding the double standards of fighting terrorism and the undeserved benefits accruing to Pakistan might be justified, it also speaks volumes of the mounting ill will and distrust between the two nuclear neighbors. Such feelings will do nothing to promote the chances of a meaningful dialogue for a peaceful resolution of the Kashmir dispute. The United States knows it, but is not likely to get involved in its resolution. As long as South Asia remains a ``manageable hotspot``, Washington will find no payoffs in upsetting the strategic applecart between the South Asian neighbors by pushing them to resolve the obdurate Kashmir conflict.

Ehsan Ahrari is a strategic analyst based in Norfolk, Virginia, US

Zafar #398

That was a ferocious reverse-swinger at 100 mph from a gentle off-spinner.

Casualty list:

a) Off and Middle stumps

b) Two front teeth

re:Reply #: 372

AAmir,

The author of the article you posted titled ``Who killed Buddhism in India`` is clearly wrong when he suggests that Brahmins were responsible. He is probably a Dalit bemoaning the loss of buddhism from India. His accusations against Mr Joshi are understandable but he does not state the facts when he says Brahmins were responsible for decline of Buddhism from India.

Brhamins had previleges but did not possess huge army or land. They were not powerful landlords. Ranvir Sena in Bihar is owned and controlled by Thakurs, who are not brahmins.

Buddhism had a stranglehold on entire India for a thousand years (7th century B.C to 7th century A.D). Universities in Taxila and Nalanda were world universities that flourished during this period. Decline in the north had much to do with the invasion of Huns (called ``Hunas``). Also, invasion by Arabs in Sindh at that time (7th century A.D)also resulted in destruction of Taxila as a center of learning.

In South, Buddhists had a greater presence. They lost out to Hindu preachers and saints. 7th century A.D saw one of the greatest spiritual thinkers in any religion viz. Adi Shankara. This man single handedly was responsible for revival of Sanatana Dharma. He did this by travelling across the country, engaging in discourses and debates, establishing the Matts in 4 corners of India from where hindu monks were trained to preach.

It needs to be remembered that Hinduism and Buddhism fought intellectually and there is no evidence of any large scale massacre or violence by one community over the other. Their`s was a fight for survival but the fight was fought through debates rather than through wars.

Kanishka was a Kushan king and a buddhist. His son became a hindu and assumed the name of Vasudeva. Surely, no forced conversion could have happened at the highest level.

The author seemed to suggest that brahmins wielded so much power that they could actually have caused downfall of buddhism. Buddhist spiritual teachings were centered around Viharas (The name Bihar is derived from this word). Viharas were like mosques or temples. Buddhist monks preached from this place. By 7th century, Viharas lost their potency. Monks became intellecually corrupt. Moral decline also began when female monks were allowed to cohabit with male monks. This along with foreign invasions were responsible for the near eclipse of buddhism in India, its birthplace. I believe Islam or its rulers had little role to play in the decline of Buddhism.

Sridhar

Urstruly dude,

Regarding your fantasy of RAW being behind the acid throwings on jeans clad and non-burqa wearing women in Kashmir, all I can say is that the acid throwings were pubilcly supported by a separatist women`s organisation - Dukhtaran-e-Millet or some similar sounding name. You can look it up. Why would they support something if initiated by RAW?

Saminashah # 395

Ok its better than nothing. Thank you.

# 396

``Another interesting thing, none of the Hindu, Christian or Ahmedis on Chowk revert to this kind of name calling of women...its actually amusing in a sad kind of way...``

Please check # 398

``PS I thought you’d appreciate a bit of your own medicine. How do you like the taste? Delicious, na? Excellent, excellent…I knew you`d be a good sport, Mr aadha pig.``

Which means that our altalib is neither hindu, nor, christian, nor ahmedi or at least I am not a women. And why do you forget what hindus did to Zahra, twice. I think you need glasses, and also need to improve English language reading comprehension.

Reply pmishra2 # 381

“The question is: what is the quality of the minority nationalism? Is the nationalism of a Martin Luther King Jr. or is the nationalism of a Farrakhan? There is a world of difference between the two. Which one do you think Jinnah`s actions are closer to?…My point was simply this: Advani has played an honourable role in the Indian goverment. Lately, he has taken to given many speeches about secularism and multi-culturalism. In spite of his ``good behavior``, given his role in the destruction of the Babri masjid, I don`t take his ``positioning`` very seriously…Similarly, given the reality of the role Jinnah played in a creating a sectarian state and the great human, social and economic damage this did, I look upon his ``secular`` statements with a similar scepticism.”

Well said. Advani, btw, also started having Iftaari parties last Ramzan – don’t know quite what he was trying to prove there, but I suspect that he failed.

Reply Shankar # 380

Shankar bhai,

I am impressed by your quixotic attempt to debate rationally with somebody who clearly does not have his being in the same millenium as the rest of us.

Zafar

PS “imagine there’s no heavennnnnnn…..” Can you imagine anything worse for some people that peace breaking out?

Reply Urstruly # 393

[``Would I want to support a group that coerced girls and women into wearing burqas/hijabs for fear of having acid thrown in their faces? (keeping in mind that these minority and local decrees are supposedly made as a ``protest`` against the Indian government.)``

“Yes I would support that group to gain independence from the oppressors who show no mercy for helpless women and throw acid on their faces.”]

It sounds like you are supporting the Indian Army’s actions in Kashmir – after all, it isn’t they who are terrorising women by throwing acid in their faces. It’s Muslim Militants from Pakistan who are doing that. Aap ke loyalty ka kya ho gaya?

Allow me to ask you a couple of questions.

Q.1 Do you or dont you support and endorse the murder and intimidation of kashmiris by Muslim Militants from Pakistan?

Q.2 Do you or dont you suport and endorse the rape of Kashmiri women by Muslim Militants from Pakistan?

Simple yes and no will suffice for each of these questions. I dont care what your political agenda is, but this will give all of us an indication of whether you are a decent human being, or whether you are willing to sacrifice all humanity at the alter of arrogance and hatred. Please be honest, or you will confirm our suspicions that you are a fat transvestite, a drunken pig and a Jahil enemy of God and His Prophet (as all people who knowingly tell lies are).

Zafar

PS I thought you’d appreciate a bit of your own medicine. How do you like the taste? Delicious, na? Excellent, excellent…I knew you`d be a good sport, Mr aadha pig.

sadna,

I`m also a little struck by the rancor in the posts of Certain Islamicist Chowkies. If youre a trannie, then apparently I mud wrestle-oh yes, while being an Oreo Kanjar-quite a spectacle, na? Lets see, what would one wear to such an event? And will the hours on Chowk have prepared me for battle?....Another interesting thing, none of the Hindu, Christian or Ahmedis on Chowk revert to this kind of name calling of women...its actually amusing in a sad kind of way...

Shankar, rdesi,

Interesting posts