The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

re: anNy

{I rest my case}

i do too

..lady, aap thora chill karain, as you like to say...

zafarsaab:

``magar koshish karunga…``

mae bhi karoongee

saxena:

``yah well zafar is still not going to `condemn` me as you keep prodding him to do...(he might say something now show ke liye, but that`s about it)....he`ll reserve the jootas for that ali eunuch fellow and the bearded freak from detroit....``

I rest my case

tahmedsaab:

im glad u and the mrs enjoyed it! (now that we`re off the front page) pls convey my regards and tell her she`s a very lucky woman to have a man as wonderful as youself

Reply anNy # 551

“dosti then…”

Wokay. Glad you are not cross. I still suspect that we will continue to find different things irritating, and in no small part because we have different chowk buddies…magar koshish karunga…

Raw-ulcers

“Since Hindus and Sikhs have to India, India should acquire more land where it can resttle immigrants. India should demand inclusion of Lahore in India - place for Sikhs and Punjabi history”

….i was just about to retort to this when i saw the handle….never mind…

tahmed321

“anNy #535 I checked out Matteela.com and it is a great website. Very tastefully done, and some great lok geet on it. My wife loves this kind of stuff too (even more than myself, if that is possible), and so you our thanks and double thanks.”

…..tahmadsaab, hope you checked out pappu saien in the music section…unlike what the website says, he’s very well known…well, in lahore at least….he gives a performance every thursday or so…and what a performance it is…everyone sits around in this hash infused circle...and then he starts his drumming and gets into this trance….very breathtaking…..one of the most religious experiences of my life…just this summer, my friend brought a couple of gora friends from england …they were so mesmerized they went every thursday for the whole time they were here….

Saminashah, anNy, Zafar-bhai....

Somehow the art of giving gaalis is far more developed, as it were, in Hindi/Urdu/Punjabi, muccccch more than it is in Angrezi. In the former languages, gaalis are often a form of bonding, a symbol of familiarity. THAT was what I meant when I talked about being as comfortable swearing to a woman as with a a man.... you have to understand that a lot of it is hardly literal.... for example... ``Oh Bhen * * * *`` is often used in the same tone as ``Oh sh1t``, with no implications of incest at all. Often females are uncomfortable around this kind of language, which I assume is anny`s problem at least.

When you move past that, there are enough people of ether sex very comfortable swearing at each other regardless of sex, and taking offence ``because I am a woman`` is rather stupid. Sure, invectives like ``whore`` or ``b1tch`` sound worse because they are so woman-specific, but then using generic gaalis on women renders them totally ineffective, naaa? Often in gaali-matches with woman contenders, that`s where one loses out as a male... they can tap into the entire gamut while us males have to be content with b1tch, slut, whore and then.... vacuum!

Anyway... can`t believe I`m expounding on gaali-galoch as a valid form of social interaction, but since you all asked.... those are my views...

And Zafar-bhai, thanks for the reprieve... I still think you are one of the best-behaved people on Chowk and your latest manoeuver with anNy/QuratulaiN deserves appluase :))))

Think this thread is dead..... but posting anyway.

RSaxena:

``oh yeah? we`ll see who`s laughing when i`m in amsterdam next week. you`ll be stuck with pasty boston chicks, fake blondes, and mean desis.``

Amsterdam huh...nice..I stayed at the Pulitzer. Nice place. Planning a visit to Yab Yum? :)

Spring Is Key in South Asia Standoff

Mon Feb 11, 3:20 AM ET

By BETH DUFF-BROWN, Associated Press Writer

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20020211/ap_on_re_as/south_asia_standoff_1

NEW DELHI, India (AP) - It could be the springtime thaw in the Himalayas before India and Pakistan warm up to pulling back from their military standoff.

That`s the season when Islamic militants traditionally cross into India`s portion of Kashmir (news - web sites) to help a Muslim insurgency, and the Indian government is waiting to see if Pakistan lives up to its pledge to curb extremist groups.

Until then, nearly a million soldiers likely will remain facing each other across the 1,800-mile frontier, keeping worries high about the possibility of a fourth war between the South Asian neighbors, both of which now have nuclear weapons.

The standoff has complicated the U.S. campaign against terrorist groups in this region. Pakistan, whose president is to meet with President Bush (news - web sites) this week, has been a key U.S. ally in the Afghan war, and Washington has been working to improve relations with India.

The crisis began after gunmen staged a suicide assault on India`s parliament complex Dec. 13. India`s government blamed the attack on Islamic extremist groups based in Pakistan, and both sides began reinforcing military forces on the border.

In an effort to ease tensions, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf promised to keep militants from crossing the frontier to launch attacks in the part of Kashmir controlled by India. India says it won`t pull back until it sees proof Pakistan is living up to that vow.

``The only real test of whether the infiltration is going to increase, decrease or remain the same is going to come in April or May, once the snows melt and the passes open up,`` said Rahul Bedi, a New Delhi-based defense analyst who writes for Jane`s Defense Weekly.

Robert Blackwill, the U.S. ambassador to India, said last week that the border crisis has eased since Musharraf`s Jan. 12 speech announcing a crackdown on Islamic militants and promising terrorism in the cause of Kashmir would not be tolerated.

``But the crisis has definitely not gone away,`` Blackwill added. ``It is quite dangerous that both countries have their forces on highest alert. A spark can set off an unintended conflict.``

The leaders of both counties continue to fan the flames with harsh rhetoric over Kashmir, a predominantly Muslim region that India and Pakistan have fought over twice since independence from Britain in 1947.

In a speech last Tuesday to mark Kashmir Solidarity Day in Pakistan, Musharraf accused India of murder, torture and gang rape. Kashmiris on India`s side of the frontier have had ``humiliation of the worst kind heaped upon them through the instrument of state terrorism,`` he said.

He added that Pakistan would continue to extend ``diplomatic, political and moral support to the Kashmiri people in their just struggle`` to break away from India, where Hindus predominate.

Indian Prime Minister Atal Vihari Vajpayee scoffed in response and reiterated India`s charge that Pakistan`s government is sponsoring a proxy war to bring all of Kashmir under Pakistani control.

``They can go on celebrating Kashmir Day for as long as they wish and to their heart`s content,`` Vajpayee thundered at a political rally Wednesday. ``But they can be certain about one thing, which is they will never, ever be able to get Kashmir.``

The Indian government puts the death toll for the 12-year-old rebellion at 32,000 civilians, militants and Indian soldiers. Musharraf estimated Tuesday that at least 70,000 lives had been lost.

Indians worry that Pakistan is getting the best of the international public relations war.

``The major powers, particularly the U.S., do not want these crazy Indians and Pakistanis to get into a nuclear conflict,`` said J.N. Dixit, a former Indian foreign secretary and ambassador to Pakistan. ``Musharraf has made all the right noises and the world goes by noises, and not by facts.``

Riffat Hussain, chairman of defense and strategic studies at Quaid-e-Azam University in Islamabad, Pakistan`s capital, said it is up to India to end the crisis.

``They are the ones who have initiated tensions by massing the troops. And they are the ones who have to determine whether they want to defuse the tension or reciprocate the steps taken by President Musharraf to defuse the tensions,`` Hussain said. ``The ball is in the Indian court.``

Bedi, the Jane`s analyst, said India had ``become a victim of its own rhetoric.``

``Having deployed their troops into a high state of alert, they don`t have a means to pull back without achieving something,`` he said.

anNy #535 I checked out Matteela.com and it is a great website. Very tastefully done, and some great lok geet on it. My wife loves this kind of stuff too (even more than myself, if that is possible), and so you our thanks and double thanks.

It was agreed at the time of Partition that there should not be mass migration of population which means Hindus in Pakistan can stay in Pakistan and Muslims can stay in India. It was Pakistan which broke the rule. Now that Pakistan is a theocratic Muslim State for Mussalmaans only, and violated the written rule, there is no need for India to adhere to norms when it comes to Pakistan.

Since Hindus and Sikhs have to India, India should acquire more land where it can resttle immigrants. India should demand inclusion of Lahore in India - place for Sikhs and Punjabi history.

re: anNy

{{dosti then..urstruly aur saxena jaisae dumbo`s kae upar humn jaisae paak logon ka larna bohat sharam kee baat hae}}

yah well zafar is still not going to `condemn` me as you keep prodding him to do...(he might say something now show ke liye, but that`s about it)....he`ll reserve the jootas for that ali eunuch fellow and the bearded freak from detroit....

re: spout

``mental hernia``

is that what they`re calling your condition these days?

{where`s the originality...}

dear, that`s exactly what i asked...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,647840,00.html

My lost country

Muzamil Jaleel grew up in the meadows and mountains of Kashmir. Then he saw friends and family die in its pursuit of independence. His country has become a battlefield - and he knows it can never be the same.

Online debate: what hope is there for Kashmir?.

Observer Worldview

Sunday February 10, 2002

The Observer

Not long ago, somebody asked me what kind of stories I wrote. Obituaries came to mind. As a reporter in Kashmir I have been literally writing obituaries for the past 10 years; only the characters and places change, the stories are always the same, full of misery and tears.

And when in October last year I got a chance to leave Kashmir, I hoped for a change. Every human being has a threshold for pain and agony. I felt mine had been reached. I wanted to escape. But within days, Kashmir was in the headlines and although I was thousands of miles away, I found myself in the middle of it all again.

I was born in Kashmir. I grew up in its apple orchards and lush green meadows, dreamed on the banks of its freshwater streams. I went to school there, sitting on straw mats and memorising tables by heart. After school my friends and I would rush half-way home, tear off our uniforms and dive into the cold water. Then we would quickly dry our hair, so our parents would not find out what we had done. Sometimes, when we felt especially daring, we would skip an entire day of school to play cricket.

My village lies in the foothills of the Himalayas. During summer breaks, we would trek to the meadows high in the mountains carrying salt slates for the family cattle, sit around a campfire and play the flute for hours. The chilling winter would turn the boys and girls of our small village into one huge family - huddled together in a big room, we would listen to stories till late into the night. Sipping hot cups of the traditional salt tea, the village elder who had inherited the art of storytelling would transport us to the era of his tales. He had never been to school but he remembered hundreds of beautiful stories by heart. Kashmir was like a big party, full of love and life. Today death and fear dominate everything.

I was in Kashmir too when the first bomb exploded in 1988. People first thought it was the outcome of a small political feud, although everybody knew the pot was boiling after years of political discontent. Then that September a young man, Ajaz Dar, died in a violent encounter with the police. Disgruntled by the farce of decades of ostensible democracy under Indian rule, a group of Kashmiri young men had decided to fight. They had dreamt of an independent Kashmir free from both India and Pakistan. Although this young man was not the first Kashmiri to die fighting for this cause, his death was the beginning of an era of tragedy.

Separatist sentiment had been dominant among Kashmiris since 1947, when Kashmir was divided between India and Pakistan during partition, and the two countries fought over it. But it was not until 40 years later that most of the youngsters opted for guns against Indian rule, in reaction to the government-sponsored rigging of the assembly polls, aimed at crushing dissent.

It is not a surprise that India`s most wanted Kashmiri militant leader, Syed Salahudin, contested that assembly election from Srinagar, nor that, unofficially, he was winning by a good margin. When the elections were rigged, he lost not only the election but faith in the process as well. His polling agents and supporters were arrested and tortured; most of them later became militants.

Neighbouring Pakistan, which occupies a third of Kashmir, also smelled the changing mood in Kashmir and offered a helping hand by providing arms training and AK-47 rifles. Violence was introduced amid growing dissent against India and hundreds of young people joined the armed movement. Kashmir was changing.

I had just completed secondary school then and was enrolled in a college - a perfect potential recruit: the entire militant movement belonged to my generation. The movement was the only topic of discussion on the street, in the classroom and at home. Soon people started coming out onto the streets, thousands would march to the famous Sufi shrines or to the United Nations office, shouting slogans in favour of ` Azadi !` (freedom). These mass protests became an everyday affair, frustrating the authorities, who began to use force to counter them. Dozens of protesters were killed by police fire.

Many of my close friends and classmates began to join. One day, half of our class was missing. They never returned to school again, and nobody even looked for them, because it was understood.

Although the reasons for joining the militant movement varied from person to person, the majority of Kashmiris never felt that they belonged to India. What had been a relatively dormant separatist sentiment was finally exploding into a fully-fledged separatist uprising.

I too wanted to join, though I didn`t know exactly why or what it would lead to. Most of us were teenagers and had not seriously thought about the consequences. Perhaps the rebel image was subconsciously attracting us all.

I also prepared for the dangerous journey from our village in north Kashmir to Pakistan-controlled Kashmir where all the training camps were. One didn`t just have to avoid being sighted by the Indian soldiers who guarded the border round the clock, but also defeat the fierce cold and the difficulties of hiking over the snow-clad Himalayan peaks that stood in the way. I acquired the standard militant`s gear: I bought the Wellington boots, prepared a polythene jacket and trousers to wear over my warm clothes, and found some woollen cloth to wrap around my calves as protection from frostbite.

Fortunately, I failed. Three times a group of us returned from the border. Each time something happened that forced our guide to take us back. The third time, 23 of us had started our journey on foot from Malangam, not far away from my village, only to be abandoned in a dense jungle. It was night, and the group had scattered after hearing gunshots nearby, sensing the presence of Indian army men. In the morning, when we gathered again, our guide was missing. Most of the others decided to continue on their own, but a few of us turned back. We had nothing to eat but leaves for three days. We followed the flight of crows, hoping to reach a human settlement. I was lucky. I reached home and survived.

As the days and months passed, and as the routes the militants took to cross the border became known to Indian security forces, the bodies began to arrive. Lines of young men would disappear on a ridge as they tried to cross over or return home. The stadiums where we had played cricket and football, the beautiful green parks where we had gone on school excursions as children, were turned into martyrs` graveyards. One after another, those who had played in those places were buried there, with huge marble epitaphs detailing their sacrifice. Many had never fired a single bullet from their Kalashnikovs.

One day, I counted my friends and classmates in the martyrs` graveyards near our village. There were 21 of them. I could feel the smiling face of Mushtaq, whom I had known since our schooldays. He would have been 31 this January, but the ninth anniversary of his death is just two months away. He was killed in April 1993. His mother could not bear the pain and lost her mental balance. For all these years, she has been wandering around the villages carrying the shirt he wore on the day of his death.

Another friend, Javaid, was his parents` only son. Extremely handsome, he was obsessed with seeing change in Kashmir. The day he died, he was wearing my clothes. He had come to our house in the morning and changed there. He was 23, and even six hours after his death, when they took him for burial, blood still oozed out of his bullet wounds. I will never forget the moment when I lifted the coffin lid away from his face: there was that usual grin. For a moment, he seemed alive to me.

Javaid`s sister was to have been married 15 days later but the shock of his death gave her a heart attack. She died a few days before what would have been her wedding day.

Today, there are more than 500 martyrs` graveyards dotting Kashmir, and every epitaph standing on a grave tells a story - a tragic story of my generation. Engraving epitaphs has become a lucrative business.

As the death toll of Kashmiris mounted, the world saw the violent movement only as the outcome of a territorial dispute between India and Pakistan which had its roots in the 1947 partition. India always called the rebellion a Pakistan-sponsored terrorist movement, while Pakistan projected it as a jihad - a Kashmiri struggle to join Pakistan just because they shared a common faith.

For India, the future of Kashmir is non-negotiable - it is an `integral part` of the country, the only Muslim majority state in the union and thus a cornerstone of its democracy and secular credentials. For Pakistan, Kashmir is also important because the majority of its population is Muslim - it is Pakistan`s `jugular vein`, and an unfinished task from the subcontinent`s partition in which Pakistan was born as a home for Indian Muslims.

With these claims on Kashmir, both countries have choked the voice of Kashmiris. The Indian government has reacted with an iron fist, deployed large numbers of security men and turned Kashmir into one massive jail.

Pakistan`s hands are not clean either. When hundreds of thousands of Kashmiris came out in support of the separatist movement in 1990, Pakistan`s lust for Kashmir`s land was exposed. It hijacked the separatist movement, painted it with religious fundamentalism and introduced pro-Pakistan, and later jihadi groups to ensure it enjoyed absolute control.

Within years, Kashmir turned into yet another battlefield in the pan-Islamic jihad and its warriors as well as its leaders were now made up of non-Kashmiris whose agendas transcend the demand for self-determination. In the process, the genuine political struggle for the unification of Kashmir and the demand of the people that they should be allowed to decide their own future was forgotten.

Whatever attention Kashmir was given was because it was a flashpoint between two nuclear neighbours and not because Kashmiris were suffering. India and Pakistan seem to share one common policy on Kashmir - to force Kashmiris to toe their respective lines. In fact, it seems that both countries want to fight to the last Kashmiri.

The Indian government held state elections in 1996 apparently aimed at ensuring a representative government in Kashmir. But actually it was nothing more than a farce. The security forces herded people to polling stations and even conducted `nail parades` to check - by the indelible ink pasted on the nail of the forefinger - that people had voted.

The man who represents Kashmir - not only in New Delhi, but across the world as India`s junior Foreign Minister - is Omar Abdullah, the son of Kashmir`s Chief Minister Farooq Abdullah. He received just 5 per cent of votes in his constituency - after coercion by the police and the security forces - and he won the elections. Who he does actually represent, nobody knows.

I have been a witness to all this. I have seen Kashmir change. I still remember my grandmother worrying whenever the sky turned red. `Murder has been committed somewhere,` she would say. Now that suspicion can no longer be reserved for red skies: the daily death toll is 20.

Kashmir used to be known as a crime-free state. One of my neighbours was a senior police officer in the mid-Eighties; he once told me that the average yearly murder rate in Kashmir was three or four. Today, if three people perish in a day, itis considered peaceful.

I have been fortunate enough to be safe, but my family and relatives have not been that lucky. My younger brother Mudabir was picked up in 1994 on suspicion of militancy, and it took us a month just to trace his whereabouts. We divided up the entire Kashmir valley among our family members. Every morning, each one of us would do the rounds of the security force camps to look for him.

My mother had never been to a police station in her entire life, but by the time she finally located my brother, she knew almost every military camp around Srinagar.

And by the time the security forces were convinced of his innocence and released him, he had already been tortured so much that he spent the next two months in bed.

It is now seven years since his release, but he still has nightmares and the mere sight of a soldier sends shivers down his spine. A late-night knock at the door still gives him goose pimples, and sends his heart rate soaring. But this is not exceptional any more in Kashmir.

A cousin`s husband bled to death after he was caught in the crossfire while coming out of mosque one evening. He could have been saved had he reached the hospital in time. But the security forces did not allow the family to come out of their house and take him to the hospital, and there was no other way to seek medical help. He bled to death crying for help, and his wife, mother and younger brother could do nothing but watch their own helplessness. A boy was born in the family four months after his death.

By 1992, there were hardly any young men left in the few villages in north Kashmir around my home. Many had joined the militant movement. Some had died, while others had gone underground; some had surrendered and become counter-insurgents and were part of the pro-government militias. Many had migrated to the urban area of Srinagar city, which was then deemed comparatively safe.

The complexion of the separatist movement was changing fast, and it no longer represented the genuine political aspirations of the people. The pro-Pakistan jihadi groups who dominated the movement tried to impose their radical religious, social and cultural agendas, ignoring the fact that their extremism was alien to the very ethos of Kashmir.

Kashmir has a history of composite culture and religious tolerance. In fact, Islam did not arrive in Kashmir through the clatter of the sword. It was introduced by mystics and Sufis who conquered the hearts of the people. In the centuries that followed, Kashmir turned into a melting pot of ideas and a meeting ground for Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam; there was no place for religious extremism.

Now, as fanaticism started to dominate, using the power of the gun, the militant movement was rendered a mere tool in Pakistan`s plan to bleed its arch-rival India with a thousand cuts.

I decided to leave my village to move to Srinagar and join Kashmir University. I was so desperate to leave that I applied to almost all the departments. It was mere chance that I got into journalism. And when I started writing about the war later that year, I felt that I had been part of this tragic story from the beginning. I knew the militants and the mukhbirs (the police informers); those who surrendered and those who did not; those who faced death because they had a dream and those who were sacrificed by mere chance, neither knowing nor understanding the issues at stake; those who believed they were fighting a holy war and those who joined for unholy reasons. But, as it turned out, there was more to the story.

My first assignment as a reporter was to visit a city police station and collect information regarding some corpses lying there. I accompanied a few local photographers, who began taking pictures as I stared at the six bullet-riddled bodies. They were in terrible condition: blood-soaked clothes, entrails exposed, faces unrecognisable.

That evening, I was haunted by the picture of bodies lying in a pool of blood - even a drink of water reminded me of blood. I couldn`t sleep for days; corpses haunted my dreams.

A few months later I arrived at the site of a massacre to find wailing women and unshaven men sitting in huddles. Bodies lay scattered, like rag dolls discarded by careless children. I felt a lump growing in my throat, my legs felt heavy. I felt incredibly tired and wanted to throw down my notebook and sit silently with the mourners. The noise of the camera shutters invaded my private thoughts, forcing me to think about the story I had to write.

Over the years, writing obituaries became a routine. When violence rules the day, there is nothing but tears to jerk out of the reader`s soul. If I avoided writing about the gory details of death, I would end up writing about orphans or widows. In the process, my reactions to such incidents also began to change. I could no longer relate to these tragedies. Now killings meant stories and bylines, and there was satisfaction to be found in penning them, even if I knew the victims personally.

The continuous interaction with death and destruction was providing a necessary thrill, and the killing fields of Kashmir were becoming nothing but news pastures for me. Every evening, I would wait for the police bulletin that provides the statistics of the daily deaths. Much as a shopkeeper counts his cash before calling it a day, I would count the dead before leaving the office. I once used a calculator to count the 105 men and women dead across the 12 districts in 24 hours. My newspaper wanted a breakdown and I found myself lost in numbers.

I belong to Kashmir`s cursed generation - the youth of the Nineties. I have lived all these troubled years in Kashmir and am still well and alive. But in the process my tears have dried up. I have lost normal human feelings to the adventures of reporting day-to-day violence in my country. I am immune to the death of my own people; I have developed an inability to mourn.

And it seems that the outside world too is unable to feel the pain of Kashmir. After more than 50,000 deaths, there still appears to be no headway towards peace. The international community needs to resolve issues between India and Pakistan. It is not only important in order to avoid a nuclear conflict: it is imperative to end the suffering of the Kashmiri people.

muzamiljaleel@yahoo.com

Prose poem by Agha Shahid Ali

Dear Shahid, I am writing to you from your far-off country. Far even from us who live here. Where you no longer are. Everyone carries his address in his pocket so that at least his body will reach home.

Rumours break on their way to us in the city. But word still reaches us from border towns: Men are forced to stand barefoot in snow waters all night. The women are alone inside. Soldiers smash radios and televisions. With bare hands they tear our houses to pieces.

You must have heard Rizwan was killed. Rizwan: Guardian of the Gates of Paradise. Only eighteen years old. Yesterday at Hideout Café (everyone there asks about you), a doctor - who had just treated a sixteen-year-old boy released from an interrogation centre - said: I want to ask the fortune-tellers: Did anything in his line of Fate reveal that the webs of his hands would be cut with a knife?

This letter, insh`Allah, will reach you for my brother goes south tomorrow where he shall post it. Here one can`t even manage postage stamps. Today I went to the post office. Across the river. Bags and bags - hundreds of canvas bags - all undelivered mail. By chance I looked down and there on the floor I saw this letter addressed to you. So I am enclosing it. I hope it`s from someone you are longing for news of.

Things here are as usual though we always talk about you. Will you come home soon? Waiting for you is like waiting for spring. We are waiting for the almond blossoms. And, if God wills, O! those days of peace when we all were in love and the rain was in our hands wherever we went.

A prose poem taken from The Country Without a Post Office by Agha Shahid Ali (WW Norton, £8.50). Ali was an award-winning Kashmiri poet praised by, amongst others, John Ashbery and Edward Said. He died last December.

suxena #545, ``forgot your tranquilizer dose again?``

did you suffer a mental hernia coming up with

line?

where`s the originality...i`m disappointed in you raveena.

scout - ``are you feeling alright?``

perfectly : )

``don`t ever say that again, not even as a joke....``

but I think it worked : )

semi:

``...ok...you got me...what`s the s stand for?...``

`silly` darling..you have to ASK?

samina

ref: Illa Arun

you are a woman of fine taste samina..i loved her song `haath mae botal` when it came out a few years ago..was bowled over ..the swagger in her tone totally blew my mind..sadly nobody else agreed..have you by any chance heard `sawan mae lag gayee aag` by mika who is daler mehindi`s kid brother? just beautiful

zafarsaab:

dosti then..urstruly aur saxena jaisae dumbo`s kae upar humn jaisae paak logon ka larna bohat sharam kee baat hae

Stuka:

``semipreciousme

you mean ``intimidated`` ..right?``

...oops...yeah, that`s intimidated not intimated....intimated totally changes the meaning, doesn`t it?...sorry, samina...

Shankar on YLH:

I agree with Shankar that Ylh exhibits `narcissistic` tendencies. Whenever he writes grandiosely `I, Yasser Latif Hamdani, hereby blah blah blah`, I burst out laughing.

However, I shudder at the thought of ylh getting into any position of authority, in the US or Pakistan or anywhere. Narcissism will get converted to megalomania: `I, YLH, hereby bomb you to dust...`

re: stuka

{{lol ha ha ha...so that`s why ?? May I suggest Pudeen Hara?? HA HA}}

oh yeah? we`ll see who`s laughing when i`m in amsterdam next week. you`ll be stuck with pasty boston chicks, fake blondes, and mean desis.

Reply QuratulaiN # 534

Aap hamari behain haiN tho hamaiN daNtna tho aap ka huq hai. Mathlab, I had no probs with your tone – hope that my response to you was not overly stuffy or agressive (I was a bit worried after posting. So please accept my apologies if it offended you.)

“...but I stand by my argument- you/we/us need to be more fair in your/our critisism...everyone who is rude to women needs to be condemned…”

I can’t argue with that. I admit that the tone I use varies widely, depending not just on the subject to which I am responding, but also on the person whose post it is. On chowk many interactions come with a history (for example, yours and Sadna’s, mine Urstruly’s) and it is difficult to take each post entirely on its own merits, and without placing it the context of what that handle has posted in the past.

“waisae, how come you didnt say anything when i was called…”

It is to my shame that I didn’t. I should have.

Also, both your and Scout’s posts gave me pause for thought. I am not sure that I am convinced, but I did go and reread C Paglia on the subject (ok, I know passé hai, but kya karoon…age tho aisa hi hai), and am re-thinking some of the implications of what I posted.

Be well,

Zafar

RSAXENA:

``....no wonder you don`t get those European chics you salivate over.``

lol ha ha ha...so that`s why ?? May I suggest Pudeen Hara?? HA HA

semipreciousme

you mean ``intimidated`` ..right?

re: spout

{{don`t ever say that again, not even as a joke. that`s just not allowed. him and `sweet` don`t go together, not at all, ABSOLUTELY 100% not.}}

forgot your tranquilizer dose again?

re: spout

{{does it? i wonder how you would know.}}

common sense? do you have to jump off a building to know not to do it? but i guess you`ve tried that and landed on your head, so learning by doing must be your thing...

{{ps: i don`t take subways}}

oh, too much excitement for you

Sadna,

Thanks for the Spivak article: very informative! If her comments were about the Metropolitan Museum`s collections of devis and apsaras, I`ll be looking for it...they are really stunning, btw.

Your posting was serendipitous-Im reading Jane Eyre for my Feminist Lit Crit class, and Spivak Begum is assigned afterwards...and I`m looking forward to it...btw, while some critics claim Spivak`s prose is unpenetrable, has anyone read Sara Suleri`s scholarly essays? These two wome could give Julia Kristeva or Luce Irigaray a run for their money-and I dare the same critics to call their work a cakewalk....

Rsax and Wholly Precious,

How could we live without either of you? I`m just getting over that sharing moment between scout and rsax (sniff)...this is progress! Btw, semi, very funny cut and paste on the axises of evil and not so evil...

anybody,

So okay, we get the International channel and Z-TV and are you going to blame me for watching it? Anyhoo, I like Uma and Ranvir of this Ztv video show-quite witty and they big up ``serious`` causes-so cute...

I saw this video by Ila Arun in which she`s wearing a turban, a velvet doublet and her hair is curled and flowing past her shoulders. I can`t remember the song`s name, but remember her facial expresions and delivery of the song-quite campy, slapstick, flirty and suggestive- it was very cool...the young women dancers in the video, not your usual uber-femmes of Indian videos, but regular girls chewing gum and making faces while they danced...anyone see it?

aicha #529, ``Rsaxena ohh well let me ruin it some more - have I ever told you that you are the mostest sweetest person on chowk.``

beti, are you feeling alright? don`t ever say that again, not even as a joke. that`s just not allowed. him and `sweet` don`t go together, not at all, ABSOLUTELY 100% not.

suxena #538, ``...too much chana causes gas...beware..now you know why people run in the opposite direction in the subway...``

does it? i wonder how you would know.

listen, i don`t want to hear about your problems with flatulence. it`s so sick, vile, and revolting....no wonder you don`t get those European chics you salivate over.

ps: i don`t take subways

re: anNy

{{Quratulain S. Hussain}}

...who???...and i thought i was the only one using a funny, made-up moniker on chowk...

RSaxena:

``thanks for picking up on that...how could they have left me out``

...hmmm....methinks samina`s intimated by your dress sense;)....

anNy:

re: QuratulaiN S. Hussain

...ok...you got me...what`s the s stand for?...

re: spout

{{as for mirchi with lime juice, i`ll save it for eating dry chanas.}}

...too much chana causes gas...beware..now you know why people run in the opposite direction in the subway...

re: semipreciousme

{{“You, Tamed, Dost Mittar and Prem are an example of whats so compelling about Chowk.

(And scout, anNy, sadna are wonderful as well)”

….ahem, ahem…}}

thanks for picking up on that...how could they have left me out

Kashmir: Musharraf`s many dilemmas

http://www.atimes.com/ind-pak/DB09Df01.html

By Muhammad Rafique

ISLAMABAD - A startling statement by a prominent Sindhi politician and spiritual leader with hundreds and thousands of followers has presented a new dilemma to embattled President General Pervez Musharraf, who is locked in a dangerous standoff with neighboring India over the disputed and divided Kashmir.

On the eve of Solidarity Day with Kashmiris on February 5, the Peer Pagaro Shah Mardan Shah, the spiritual head of the Hur tribesmen and a known supporter of the military in the key Sindh province, shocked both the nation and the military by declaring that the Kashmir Valley never belonged to Pakistan and ``it never will``.

Although the military regime did not directly respond to the Peer`s statement, several pro-Musharraf politicians, mainly belonging to the Pakistan Muslim League party aspiring to form the bulwark of the ``real democracy`` Musharraf is planning to introduce in Pakistan after the upcoming October elections, condemned the statement as ``unpatriotic``.

The Peer Pagaro heads his own faction of the Muslim League, which is divided into half a dozen or more factions, and the military is trying desparately to unite them in order to pick a prime ministerial candidate from among them, by helping it to win the elections. Musharraf himself will become an all-powerful president under the new dispensation, after dumping the ``sham democracy`` under which Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif twice became prime ministers.

The Peer Pagaro, who helped General Zia ul Haq topple prime minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto in a coup in 1977, has always been close to the generals, not because of any political skills or popularity among the masses but simply because he commands the unalloyed loyalty of the hundreds of thousands of Hur tribesmen who live in the deserts of Sindh, bordering India, and who have always formed the second line of defense for the Pakistani regular troops in the soft belly of Pakistan.

Most observers say that if and when the war breaks out in the context of the present standoff between the two nuclear-armed adversaries, India will attack from the same very region. In both the 1965 and 1971 wars with India, the Hurs of the Peer (the hereditary spirtual head) fought side-by-side with the Pakistani troops in that strategic area and they will again need the Peer`s help if the war breaks out.

Reliable political sources have told Asia Times Online that the government has sent intermediaries to mollify the Peer to keep him on their side. The Peer, according to sources, wants a nominee from the province of Sindh to become the prime minister of Pakistan under the ``real democracy`` which Musharraf wants to introduce after amending the 1973 prime ministerial constitution patterned on the Westminster model, which all military dictators in Pakistan have spurned and amended to enable them to wield real power.

Musharraf has constituted the National Reconstruction Bureau (NRB) under a retired lieutenant-general to amend the constitution, which he is allowed to do as the Supreme Court of Pakistan validated his coup until October 2002. The NRB is now busy making the amendments which Musharraf plans to have validated by the new parliament, the seats of which he has already increased by about 30 percent. The NRB is also making provisions for Musharraf to handpick about 50 technocrats to strengthen his hand.

Musharraf has also increased to 70 the quota of seats allocated for women. These will be elected on the basis of proportional representation while the regular candidates will be elected along party lines on the first-past-the-post basis.

But Musharraf is determined to keep both Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto, both of whom are in exile, out of the electoral arena. Bhutto is now in Washington to lobby for support from the right quarters to allow her to return to Pakistan to participate in the elections. She has even said that she is ready to become prime minister under the new Musharraf dispensation, and has supported his move to crack down on Islamic jihadi organizations. But Musharraf has stuck to his stand that he will never allow either Sharif or Bhutto to contest elections while he is in power, and he is determined to remain in power even beyond the permitted five years from October of this year, unless the fates or the Americans intervene, according to independent political analysts.

And the general has removed far from the scene all the mullahs who can and are determined to muster street power to force the general out and install another general more to their liking.

Politicians other than the Peer of Pagaro are eyeing the key positions, including the prime ministrial post, and they are looking to the Americans more than the ruling junta because they perceive that power in Pakistan comes via Washington. Meanwhile, the Americans, especially the very active American Ambassador Wendy Chamberlain, are keeping a close eye on who might become the next prime minister.

One of the current favorites is Mehmood Kasuri, a lawyer from Lahore who runs a string of schools throughout Pakistan. As for the unpredictable and sometimes jocular Peer of Pagaro, his favorite could be anybody from the half a dozen politicians who go and touch his feet, as is the custom for the holy men of Sindh. The Peer is no fundamentalist and is known to keep the compay of beautiful women.

Intriguingly, some analysts believe the Peer of Pagaro might have made his Kashmir remarks with a wink and a nod from ``someone important`` to help solve the Kashmir dilemma by having both India and Pakistan maintain the parts of Kashmir they now hold - which just may be the ultimate solution.

sorry, thats:

www.matteela.com

tahmedsahab, dostmitter, stuka:

ww.mateela.com might also interest you gentlemen..it was doing rounds in the cultural scene in khi a few months ago..still getting rare reviews..it is a production house dealing mainly with making new and restoring old punjabi films, music, literature and making the same available on the net for those abroad and all..they have also branched out into silent movies very recently

soundmiester: dearie, childish i am..its so much fun acting like a cute lil 14 year old and getting away with taking peoples fulltime

saxena: pls say something horrid quick..youre freaking me out

mastram dear no money you see

Challenging chessboard of Asia

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20020208-7593024.htm

William R. Hawkins

President George W. Bush will soon embark on a diplomatic swing through Asia, which will include a summit in China with President Jiang Zemin.

Beijing`s support for the U.S. campaign against al Qaeda, tepid as it has been, has led some observers, particularly former members of the Clinton administration, to argue that China should again be considered a ``strategic partner.`` But a realist look at Beijing`s behavior demolishes this line of thought.

China has recently held naval maneuvers in the East China Sea with the apparent intent to pressure Taiwan. And Chinese interceptors have again been harassing American patrol aircraft flying over the South China Sea, recalling the crisis of last April 1 when a Chinese jet collided with a U.S. Navy EP-3 reconnaissance plane and forced it down on Hainan Island.

The state-run Chinese media have been critical of the United States and its president. The official journal Beijing Liaowang concluded in a year-end review, ``U.S. foreign policy under Bush is overbearing and extremely supercilious; it smacks of unilateralism, and obviously betrays the desire for exclusive domination.`` The Beijing Review, China`s leading English-language journal, opened the new year with an article claiming ``The September 11 tragedy, however, has not weakened America`s superior role in world dynamics; the United States has not given up its demand for world hegemony.``

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Kong Quan said on Feb. 4 that China disapproves of the use of such words as the ``axis of evil`` in international relations. Mr. Kong also claimed that American public opinion does not support President Bush`s characterization of Iran, Iraq and North Korea as terrorist states. ``China always holds that anti-terrorism campaigns should be based on irrefutable evidence, and anti-terrorism attacks should not be expanded arbitrarily,`` said Mr. Kong.

Beijing has itself attempted to use ``anti-terrorism`` to justify suppression of the Muslim independence movement in Xinjiang Province, but this conflict has nothing to do with Sept. 11. Beijing well knows that Osama bin Laden`s focus was the United States. Bin Laden also trained fighters for war in Chechnya against Russia and in Kashmir against India, but he did not make the same effort to train fighters for Xinjiang. This was because the al Qaeda/ Taliban network was created and backed by China`s ally, Pakistan.

The Taliban even sent parts of U.S. cruise missiles fired in 1998 at al Qaeda camps to China for study. Chinese firms also set up the Taliban`s telecommunications system and shipped in weapons through Pakistan.

China`s ambitions remain what they were before September 11, and Beijing continues to see the United States as the main obstacle to fulfilling those ambitions. While seeking a ``multipolar`` world to weaken American influence, China has wanted a unipolar Asia with Beijing as its center. It has worked to isolate India, bully Taiwan, contain Japan, and divide the Association of South East Asian Nations (ASEAN).

China has been working hard to encircle India. In Tibet, Beijing has built all-weather military roads linking a chain of army bases, major airfields and ballistic missile sites. China is fast increasing its ability to launch deep strikes — by both aircraft and medium-range missiles, against major Indian targets in the hinterland. China still holds the disputed territory in the Aksai Chin, over which the 1962 war with India was fought and through which runs a vital logistical route supporting Beijing`s occupation of Tibet.

In Myanmar (Burma), long recognized as ``the back door to India`` China has strongly supported the military dictatorship by providing arms, and upgrading strategic infrastructure and port facilities. Beijing has built naval bases along Burma`s coastline in the Bay of Bengal, better designed to service Chinese warships than the nonexistent Myanmar fleet.

China is also sending arms and money to support the ``Maoist`` guerrillas in Nepal, and is the main supplier of arms to Sri Lanka and Bangladesh.

Beijing`s strategic calculations have been thrown into turmoil, however, by the vigorous U.S. response to September 11. China sees the United States acquiring a new foothold in Central Asia and improving relations with Russia.

Chinese has long supported Pakistan`s jihad in Kashmir. Pakistan`s top military commanders met with their opposite numbers in Beijing at the height of the India-Pakistan crisis triggered by a terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament. This Chinese gambit against India has been damaged by American pressure on Islamabad to curtail the infiltration of guerrillas into Kashmir, and by the elimination of the Taliban.

Beijing views a potential U.S.-Indian military alignment with horror. Paired with the U.S.-Japan alliance, it would bracket China and bring into concert with Washington Asia`s other two major powers. Furthermore, the new Changi Naval Station in Singapore, the provision of new weapons to Taiwan, the reintroduction of American troops into the Philippines and U.S. discussions of collaborative work with regional allies on missile defense presents Beijing with the specter of having its encirclement strategy turned against it.

A prominent circle of Chinese military thinkers and hardline academics believe that Beijing needs to demonstrate its strength, rather than look meek, in the wake of the American demonstration of power in Afghanistan. They are urging President Jiang to more forcefully confront President Bush over issues like Taiwan, missile defense and any expansion of the war on terrorism.

Whatever the atmosphere of the summit turns out to be, President Bush needs to remember one thing; he had Beijing pegged right the first time.

China is a ``strategic competitor.``

William R. Hawkins is senior fellow for National Security Studies at the U.S. Business and Industry Council Educational Foundation.

``Chupp Chupp kharray ho,zaroor koi baat hai.``

``Kaun jeeta kaun haara,yeh kahaani phir sahee.``

__________________________________________________

Signs of a Cover-up at the Pentagon.

How many times did we see the video clips of the planes hitting the World Trade Centre? It was repeated almost like a loop on every channel until the horror of the event was permanently burned into our memories.

Yet what can be said of the plane crash at the Pentagon – we heard about it soon enough, but very few images were forthcoming on the day, and the bulk of what we saw afterwards were still photos of the collapsed portion of the pentagon and a few pictures of fire-fighters attempting to extinguish the blaze. No sign of any video recordings, very few witness reports and definitely nothing to show us the event as it happened.

Have a look at the following two links – it appears the Pentagon’s security cameras failed to capture the crash on CCTV, yet a nearby hotel and a gas station had security cameras which DID manage to capture the whole event. Pretty poor security at the Pentagon – its just a wonder that no-one else is trying to attack the world’s only superpower if the security cameras on their military command centre can’t manage to film a plane crashing into the building. The FBI came and confiscated all the tapes without even having the common courtesy to give them to CNN so we could see them 56 times a day. Were they worried that we might see pieces of paper with state secrets on them flying out of the building? What exactly are they worried we might see?

http://www.gertzfile.com/ring092101.html

Video of attack

The electronic news media have broadcast repeatedly the attack on the World Trade Centre. They are perhaps the most dramatic news images since the explosion of the first atomic bomb over Hiroshima.

Now word has reached us that federal investigators may have video footage of the deadly terrorist attack on the Pentagon.

A security camera atop a hotel close to the Pentagon may have captured dramatic footage of the hijacked Boeing 757 airliner as it slammed into the western wall of the Pentagon. Hotel employees sat watching the film in shock and horror several times before the FBI confiscated the video as part of its investigation.

It may be the only available video of the attack. The Pentagon has told broadcast news reporters that its security cameras did not capture the crash.

The attack occurred close to the Pentagon`s heliport, an area that normally would be under 24-hour security surveillance, including video monitoring.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:cEYcct0w1g8C:www.militarymarket.com/+nex+gas+station+camera+pentagon&hl=en

NEX camera captures Pentagon crash

Security cameras at a NEXCOM-operated gas station recorded the Sept. 11 crash of a hijacked passenger airliner into the Pentagon, Navy sources have said.

The security tape, which sources said clearly shows the American Airlines jet ploughing into the building and exploding, was turned over to the FBI.

The gas station is located on a hill south of the Pentagon. Its security camera is aimed to record cars coming and going from the gas pumps. The angle of the camera gives a clear view of the side of the Pentagon where the 757 jet hit, sources said.

The tape’s existence has not been discussed publicly by military officials or federal investigators.

What exactly do they not want us to see?

Here are two abstracts of articles taken from the Daily Press:

`HORRIFIC` IMAGE STILL HAUNTS SURRY WOMAN DISASTER VIEWED FROM ARLINGTON

Daily Press; Newport News; Sep 14, 2001; TERRY SCANLON Daily Press;

Abstract:

Her brother, [Keith Wheelhouse], of Virginia Beach, spotted the planes first. The second plane looked similar to a C- 130 transport plane, he said. He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.

Wheelhouse`s account of a second plane is unlike everything else that has been reported about the attack. Some initial reports on television said a second airliner might be headed for the Pentagon, but authorities later dismissed that. A Norfolk-based FBI agent interviewed Wheelhouse Wednesday evening.

A possible explanation for the second plane could be a plane landing at nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport. The Pentagon is between the cemetery and the airport. But Wheelhouse insists he was not confused by other air traffic.

HAMPTON ROADS WOMAN SAYS SHE, TOO, SAW PLANE FOLLOWING JET THAT HIT PENTAGON

Daily Press; Newport News; Sep 15, 2001; TERRY SCANLON Daily Press;

Abstract:

Kelly Knowles, a First Colonial High School alumnus who now lives in an apartment a few miles from the Pentagon, said some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion.

At the same time, [Keith Wheelhouse] and his sister, Pam Young, who lives in Surry, were preparing to leave a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery, which is less than a mile from the Pentagon, when they watched the jet approach and slam into the Pentagon. Both of them, as well as at least one other person at the funeral, insist that there was another plane flying near the hijacked jet.

A follow up article to these two can be seen at this link. (From the Google cache)

Over a month later Pentagon officials finally decide to deliver a convenient story that the mystery plane WAS in fact a c-130 that flew out of Andrews Air force base and just happened to see flight 77 on its way to destruction. It followed the plane on a request from air traffic control. If this is true, surely you’d think that a fighter from the same base could have intercepted the plane instead of having to ask a c-130 that just happened to be in the area to have a look?

All of this certainly adds a lot of fuel to the popular theories that the planes were being flown by remote control, especially now we have evidence to suggest that an unknown plane or flying object has been sighted at the WTC, flight 93 and now at the Pentagon.

WTC object caught on camera as plane hits: http://www2.justnet.ne.jp/

suxena #524, ``yeah, i missed you too...the bleach didn`t do it? try some mirchi mixed with lime juice. that`ll do it.``

hmmm, you seem to speak from experience. do you still have nightmares about it..

as for mirchi with lime juice, i`ll save it for eating dry chanas.

Rsaxena

ohh well let me ruin it some more - have I ever told you that you are the mostest sweetest person on chowk.

he he he i hope you are breaking out into hives reading this : )

aicha

samina:

“You, Tamed, Dost Mittar and Prem are an example of whats so compelling about Chowk.

(And scout, anNy, sadna are wonderful as well)”

….ahem, ahem…

veereshsaab (sounds so much better than unkil, right? : ))

“Here is another one: the English print and tv media in India has never been more ir-relevant now than during any election in the past.”

….how’s that? does the u.p. electorate not like english? …btw, you never got around to telling us why gandhi never won the peace prize….would be very interested in your thoughts….and how is surhavi?…remind her to def. visit sargodha next time she comes….as for your charpoy in jhang…maybe one day:)…

samina

``Hydra

When you get up in the morning, how do you decide which personality youre going to be? Do you rub your eyes, look in the mirror and say ``I feel very Kim today!``? Or is it ``Sunny days mean Aamir, rainy days mean Fatima``?``

...uh-uh...picks one out of a hat....

saminashah, anyone, you might find this interesting :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/09/arts/09SPIV.html
Creating a Stir Wherever She Goes
Gayatri Chakravorty Spivak had been invited by a group of scholars on this chilly January evening to give a talk at the Penniman Library of the University of Pennsylvania, in Philadelphia. ``They have read Gayatri`s paper,`` said Ms. Spivak, a professor in the humanities at Columbia University who sometimes refers to herself in the third person. ``And they said they couldn`t understand it.``

Ms. Spivak, wearing a sari, with vivid pink highlights in her crewcut hair, looks a little like Grace Jones. She originally wrote the paper, called ``Moving Devi,`` as a catalog essay for a 1999 museum exhibition of representations of Devi, the divine female principle in Hindu mythology.

``People had some problem following her argument,`` Sanjay Krishnan, a professor of English who organized the talk, explained respectfully. Mr. Krishnan is a Spivak admirer. Like the other 17 members of the audience, he was looking forward to the lecture. After all, Ms. Spivak, 59, is a celebrity in academia. (Her r *sum * of publications, lectures and awards has now reached 41 pages.) She was one of the first translators of Jacques Derrida into English and one of the most famous practitioners of postcolonial studies, devoted to the culture of people of the former colonies.

Ms. Spivak began. ``What does `Moving Devi` mean?`` he asked.

``The answer,`` she said, ``is a change in the relation of the subject who is writing from a place where Devi belongs as she slowly moves into the text of the museum. What I`m looking at here is that itinerary, not the nostalgic identatrianism of the metropolitan migrant.``

As she spoke, Ms. Spivak summoned a dazzling array of references: Marx, Hegel, Freud, Lacan, Rilke, Aristotle, and Hindu and Sufi mysticism. ``The Sufi is not invaginated in the polytheistic universe,`` she said, ``but the supernatural is invaginated in the natural.``

Got all that? Hard going for the layman as well as for some academics.

``She certainly enjoys celebrity status in our profession,`` Michael Rosenthal, a colleague of Ms. Spivak`s in Columbia`s English department, said in an interview. ``But I don`t think I am alone sometimes in finding it difficult to understand what exactly she is saying.``

Indeed, over the years Ms. Spivak has become almost as famous for her dense writing style as for her theories about colonial oppression. ``Spivak is so bewilderingly eclectic, so prone to juxtapose diverse notions without synthesis, that ascribing a coherent position to her on any question is extremely difficult,`` Stephen Howe wrote in The New Statesman and Society, a British weekly. Fred Inglis, a professor at the University of Sheffield in England, derided Ms. Spivak`s work in the Times Higher Education Supplement as ``preposterous.``

And the Oxford scholar Terry Eagleton, in a much talked-about essay in The London Review of Books, called Ms. Spivak ``pretentiously opaque.``

He cited ``a wretched sentence, like `the in-choate in-fans ab-original para- subject cannot be theorized as functionally completely frozen in a world where teleology is schematized into geo-graphy.` ``

Still, Mr. Eagleton wrote, Ms. Spivak is ``among the most coruscatingly intelligent of all contemporary theorists, whose insights can be idiosyncratic but rarely less than original.``

``She has probably done more long- term political good, in pioneering feminist and post-colonial studies within global academia than almost any of her theoretical colleagues,`` he continued.``

Edward Said, Ms. Spivak`s colleague at Columbia, echoed the praise in an interview: ``She pioneered the study in literary theory of non-Western women and produced one of the earliest and most coherent accounts of that role available to us.``

Ms. Spivak, who was born in Calcutta, first made her reputation with her 1976 translation of Mr. Derrida`s ``Of Grammatology.`` Then, in 1985, she published her landmark essay ``Can the Subaltern Speak?,`` about the inability of the powerless to express themselves. Subaltern originally meant a junior officer in the British Army, but it has been co- opted by academics studying groups particularly oppressed by colonial powers. Ms. Spivak argued that the experiences of such groups are inevitably distorted by the perspectives of the elite who are describing them Ñ academics, for instance.

In this essay Ms. Spivak also extended the meaning of subaltern to apply specifically to women in colonial countries. She examined the suicide of an Indian woman, Bhubaneswari Bhaduri, in 1926. The suicide was originally attributed to Bhaduri`s distress over an out-of-wedlock pregnancy. Ms. Spivak pointed out that Bhaduri was not, in fact, pregnant. She said Bhaduri killed herself because she could not bear to take part in a political assassination. This woman ``was not heard,`` Ms. Spivak said, because she was defined only within the narrow limits of gender.

Such an approach has put Ms. Spivak on one side of a bitter divide. Like many college English departments around the country, Columbia`s is split between cultural theorists like Ms. Spivak, who study the political, social and psychological forces that drive culture, and more traditionally minded scholars.

And in a place where petty slights can take on gargantuan proportions, it doesn`t help that Ms. Spivak, unlike most professors, has her own secretary. ``I negotiated this when I came because I had a very busy office,`` she said.

In 1986 she published another important essay in the journal Critical Inquiry. She disagreed with Sandra M. Gilbert and Susan Gubar Ñ authors of ``The Madwoman in the Attic`` (Yale University Press), a feminist analysis of 19th-century women who were authors Ñ who had depicted Bertha, Mr. Rochester`s insane wife in Charlotte Bront‘`s ``Jane Eyre,`` as Jane`s dark double.

``I found it more interesting that she was a Creole from Jamaica,`` Ms. Spivak recalled. Bront‘ also used animal imagery to describe Bertha. ``They thought it was O.K. to represent her in these animalistic terms,`` Ms. Spivak said.

``It told us about the society when someone could present someone from the colonies as an animal,`` she observed. ``We are also marked by our time as she was by hers.``

Ms. Spivak comes from the first generation of Indian intellectuals after the country`s independence. Her father, Pares Chakravorty, was a doctor. ``I am, unfortunately, a Brahmin,`` Ms. Spivak said, ``but from an inferior sect of the Brahmin cast.``

Her highly intellectual mother, Sivani, did charitable work and is an avid reader of her daughter`s work. When she read Ms. Spivak`s translation of Mr. Derrida, Ms. Spivak recalled, her mother said it reminded her of Madhyamika Buddhist sacred texts. ``Then,`` Ms Spivak remembered, ``she said, `But dear, how are you going to reconcile your communism with this?` ``

Despite her sari and her frequent references to Indian culture, Ms. Spivak dislikes being identified as a scholar of India, a label she attributes to ``benevolent racism.``
``I am a Europeanist,`` she said.

She attended a Christian missionary school and the University of Calcutta. Her graduate work was at Cornell, ``on borrowed money, before multi-culti,`` she said, adding, ``I was a brilliant student.`` When she wrote her dissertation on Yeats, her adviser was Paul de Man, who was later found to have written pro-Nazi newspaper articles in wartime Belgium. ``I have seen all around me profound contradictions, colleagues who speak about Arabs in an unspeakable way,`` she said of de Man`s anti- Semitism. ``Hegel says unspeakable things about Africa, but I can still use Hegel.``

In 1964 Ms. Spivak married a fellow student, Talbot Spivak. They divorced in 1977. Then, while teaching at the University of Iowa, she began a 10-year relationship — which she calls ``a second marriage,`` although it was not legally binding — with one of her students, who was nine years younger. ``People wanted to see if he got an easy Ph.D.,`` she said. ``I was incredibly hard on him.`` (Today many colleges prohibit professors from dating students.) She has been separated for 10 years from her second husband, Basudev Chatterji, a history professor at Delhi University. She has no children.

Ms. Spivak is in demand around the world for talks and lectures, causing a stir wherever she goes. In the United States, she usually wears a sari, sometimes with combat boots; when in India, she often wears jeans, she says. She objects to comments about her exotic appearance.

``Since they can`t talk about my work,`` she said, ``I say they talk about my style.`` She admits, though, to sometimes being flattered by the attention. ``At a gay costume party in Cairo, someone came dressed as Gayatri; this is an admiring thing,`` she said.

Ms. Spivak also bristles at criticism of her writing. ``When academics say I`m difficult to understand, I don`t pay attention because I think they are saying, `This does not deserve to be understood,` `` she said. ``No student ever complained at the end of a course.``

The scholars at the University of Pennsylvania weren`t complaining, either; they were just trying to understand.

Aditya Behl, an associate professor in the university`s department of religious studies, asked Ms. Spivak about a particular passage: `` `If multicultural mulch begins to affect museal practice,` `` he read, `` `it will have happened in the middle voice, neither active nor passive — an expressive instrument we have lost in modern grammars.` ``

Mr. Behl said he was ``perplexed by this seeming that Devi is rendered inaccessible to the metropolitan migrant.``

Ms. Spivak told him: ``It`s not that it can`t enter the museum. You have to be able to recognize it without its cultural dress.``

Of course.

re: aicha

{{ absolutely mortified - and I abs agree with Harpreet - I think you are pretty cool too!! }}

uhh...if you wanna be nice to people, please go somewhere else...you are ruining chowk for everyone...

:)

re: spout

{ hi moron, i missed you. i did wash my eyes out, with bleach. and they still feel dirty. }

yeah, i missed you too...the bleach didn`t do it? try some mirchi mixed with lime juice. that`ll do it.

dost-mittar . . . I travel a fair bit in connection with keeping body, soul and family together but mostly by plane which is so synthetic . . . so train rides are always used by me to analyse the state of the nation by checking out on cream roll and dosa quality as well as price . . .and standing satiated at VT on a comfortable day weatherwise with the option of travelling 1st AC for 600/- I see no reason why I should not travel general class for all of 55/- rupees ( a dollar and 10 cents now) over a distance of almost 200 kilometres and in the same train . . . to add to the fun, 2nd Class compartments usually have wires leading out from the fan/light wall switch outlets used by people to listen to their transistors so I could use my laptop also without worrying about battery running out which I cannot do in the dignified environs of AC for more than 2 hours.

saminasha . . . I think the best reportage on Enron in India was from The Economist . . . they have been giving the truth as they saw it (John Elliot, I think) for the last few years. What is new about Enron in India, it is just a flagrant continuation of the same thing that our ``better`` leaders of yore did with so much class/style - rip the country.

Reply cutandpaste # re: Onion article on Amoco conflict

I take back every unkind thought I have ever had about you. You are a star. You illuminate. We would be dull and lifeless without you. Cutandpaste ki jai.

Reply Soundmeister # 501

``Zafar-bhai.... your argument, forgive me, is really stupid.``

waaaaaah!

``Even assuming you are right in saying that more Muslim bhais do gaali-galochh on Hindu behens than vice-versa``

Look, I admit asking anybody to count these things is excessive...but it`s true...(sniff)

``1. In a truly liberated society, you should be as profane to a woman as a man, ideally, because you are beyond social niceties and speak uninhibited. Example would be the way i converse with really close friends, regardless of their sex.``

But chowk is not a truly liberated society. Not that I think the use of wulgurrrr langvayge is a perfect indicator of liberation, but how many women use it, and how many men use it?

``2. The fact remins that the composition of this site`s visitors is largely Pakistani, and the kind of Indians who DO patronise are more or less from the same stratum, not to mention, they are intimidated by the sheer Paki-ness of it all :))).``

We`re here because we dig it! Truly. We like you heaps - why else would we keep coming back for more? (But our kebabs, I must tell you, are definitely better, not that I`ve ever tasted uss paar ke, magar koi baath nahin, yeh mujhe patha hai...)

``Add to that mix the fact that anonymity on this site is rather a thin veil, compared to other sites, because the interactors are by and large the same people with a few changes over time. So forgive my co-religionists for being more polite than they intend to be.``

Totally not understood, but forgiven, forgiven...(btw have NO IDEA which religion etc. and find that I quite like it that way. :-)

Veeresh,

Agreed that events taking place in the US are not the focus of the world`s attention; in Enron`s case I`ve noticed that the US media has neglected to mention its pretty cutthroat deals in Argentina and India. What exactly were Enron`s deals with India?

In terms of Argentina`s crisis, it might help us to understand some of the corporate forces leading to this country`s troubles. Also, in terms of the WFO meetings in NYC;(which were moved from Switzerland to avoid the growing protest movements in Europe)would it not be instructive to make some linkages here?

regards

http://www.theonion.com/onion3804/indo-pakistani_tensions.html

DETROIT— Indo-Pakistani tensions continue to escalate this week at the Eight-Mile and Telegraph Road Amoco, where hostilities between owner Rajesh Srinivasan and in-store Subway mini-franchise manager Majid Ashraf threaten to spill over into all-out war.



``We have made every effort to extend the hand of friendship to the Pakistani delegation that runs the Amoco Mart`s Subway Express,`` said the India-born Srinivasan, 49, in a statement to the press Monday. ``But that hand, my own hand with which I built this business for my family, has been repeatedly and without remorse slapped away.``

Leased and operated by Pakistani immigrant Ashraf and his family since March 1999, the in-store Subway occupies 30 percent of the Amoco Mart`s total retail space. Ever since their arrival, the Ashrafs have been the subject of increasingly inflammatory rhetoric from Srinivasan, who charges, among other things, that they are not mopping their fair share of the disputed territory near the coolers.

In a terse Feb. 1 statement to reporters, Ashraf struck back.

``I come to America to make business, not to be insulted by the son of a New Delhi whore,`` Ashraf said. ``I take my orders from [Subway regional manager] Larry [Ferber], not from son-of-b itch Indian dog who says to me where I mop and where I not mop.``

Though tensions have existed ever since the Ashrafs took over the Subway, the situation began sharply deteriorating in December of last year. Upon seeing Srinivasan sweep the parking lot at his wife`s behest, Ashraf mocked his Indian counterpart, calling him ``a quaking little baby goat`` and questioning the manhood of ``anyone who would take orders from a woman.``

``What Majid doesn`t recognize is that there are significant differences between his Islamic culture and Rajesh`s Hindu culture regarding gender roles,`` said Dr. James Sasser, a Harvard professor of Middle Eastern studies. ``But, to be fair, Rajesh didn`t help matters when he came after Majid with that squeegee.``

Relations further deteriorated on Jan. 20, when a dispute over cleaning-supplies inventory led to a full-blown shouting match between the small-business owners. For 45 minutes, Srinivasan and Ashraf loudly traded insults in full view of customers, and the episode reached its apex when Srinivasan called Ashraf ``a filthy, lying cheat lower than the untouchable caste of my native land.``

Srinivasan then spit on the floor in disdain, prompting Ashraf to retaliate by hurling an economy-sized container of Janitor In A Drum™ at his rival`s head.

Though the skirmish resulted in no serious injuries, it did end what little dialogue there had been between the two sides. Neither Ashraf nor Srinivasan is currently speaking to the other, and both are said to be hiding the employee bathroom key in an attempt to force the other out.



Acquired by the Srinivasan family in 1987, Eight-Mile and Telegraph Road Amoco has long been a hotbed of Indo-Pakistani tension, as its strategic location makes it critical to Pakistani cab drivers needing to refuel on their way from Detroit garages to the more lucrative suburban trade routes. Fluctuating gas prices have, over the years, resulted in strained relations between the station`s Indian owners and its Pakistani cab-driver customers, but the economic interdependence of the two groups in a highly competitive climate kept such tensions in check.

Given the volatility of the current situation, officials from Amoco and Subway, who license franchise rights to the Srinivasan and Ashraf families, are keeping a close eye on the troubled region.

``Something must be done, or we`re looking at a situation that could lead to all-out war,`` said Frederick Foss, Subway director of franchise relations for southeast Michigan. ``It`s in the best interests of everyone in the area that positive relations are maintained between the two sides.``

Community members are equally eager to see stability restored to the once-peaceful Amoco. Among the concerned local residents are Sandy Kreil, the nurse who gets coffee at the Amoco Mart on her way to work; local panhandlers ``Dan-O`` and ``Malik``; and Frannie Koenig, the elderly woman who drops in every morning for a Diet Dr. Pepper and a pack of Newport Lights.

In spite of the concern, diplomatic initiatives on the part of Subway and Amoco officials have met with failure.

``I do not see why I must refill ice machine every day when Ashraf`s customers have taken away 40 percent of my business for soda,`` said Srinivasan before walking out on a Jan. 11 negotiating session. ``You go die, Mr. Ashraf. I am not listening to you anymore.``

In the wake of the breakdown in negotiations, many observers are fearful that the Indian family will ``drop the bomb`` and refuse Ashraf access to the Dumpster behind the station, effectively forcing him to pay for a separate commercial garbage service and increase his costs beyond profitability. This move would leave Ashraf with little choice but to retaliate with a strike against the candy aisle.

``If such a scenario were to unfold, the devastation unleashed upon the Amoco and its surrounding environs would be vast,`` Sasser said. ``Without the Amoco Mart, locals would have to go all the way over to the Exxon on Gratiot [Avenue] for gas and snacks. Something must be done immediately, or it could spell doomsday for everyone.``

Enron? What do I say about Enron? I say that anybody investing anywhere in the sub-Continent must (a) always be ready for fast exit (b)appreciate that we learnt the art of renegotiating contracts from the Brits and (c) I think enron stuck a lot of Indian Financial Institutions as well as Sovereign India with plenty of bad debts.

Vaise it has been a learning curve for many ``business journalists`` here who are not looking for jobs.

Here is another one: the English print and tv media in India has never been more ir-relevant now than during any election in the past.

samina

: ) absolutely mortified - and I abs agree with Harpreet - I think you are pretty cool too!!

gupshup w/o chai looses half its fun : )

aicha

scout #513
``i fall into a diabetic coma.``
Nope no danger of that.

tahmed321 #508
``I also realize that men and women have slightly different thought processes, and vive le difference as the French say. So on that note I shall leave you with the choice of having the last word on this board (destined to disappear soon, I think) if you so wish.``

Thanks, but I have nothing more to say. Though if you donot mind expanding on what the different thought processes of men and women have to do with it all?
For eg, with respect to the general point being made by others here, for cultural reasons, women often know less `gallis` than men and are less able to neatly answer `galli` with matching `galli`. For this reason perhaps women may choose to hit back in more general terms. But then I`ve not noticed men abstaining from generalities either..

sadna #500, ``You haven`t be interacting as frequently, hope it means that things are getting interesting and going well.``

you care about me? you sweet thing you.

stop it before i fall into a diabetic coma.

sadna #499 I dont ``dislike`` you as you think, and am sorry if I have created that impression. We are after all mere shadows of our complete selves on chowk and so can only judge each others posts, not our complete personalities. I mean no more than what I have written in posts below, which does not add up to liking or disliking anyone. I wish you and all other chowkies a happy, healthy ``real`` life. This includes urstruly and jay to whom I have yet to write a post that is not critical or downright mean, and quite rightly so I think. I am not trying to change your (or anyones) behavior (I have a full-time job minding my own behavior in real life) as you say, but will use my ``chowk-given`` right to write a critical post when I think it appropriate.

On a positive note, we both agree on the principle that it is unacceptable for anyone to disparage other people`s faith, nationality, ethnicity etc. I also realize that men and women have slightly different thought processes, and vive le difference as the French say. So on that note I shall leave you with the choice of having the last word on this board (destined to disappear soon, I think) if you so wish.

suxena #502, ``sadna can wash her fingers with soap and water for uttering those words (i won`t repeat them), but shouldn`t you wash your eyes out for reading them? didn`t bert & ernie warn you about not repeating words like those?``

hi moron, i missed you. i did wash my eyes out, with bleach. and they still feel dirty.

so can you sit on the toilet seat without crying now?

correction:

SOME self id.`ed Indian interactors have written stupid things about Pakistan...of course, they are in the minority. My apologies for the typo-just reviewed yesterday`s post.

soundmeister,

Forgive my intrusion into your conversation with Zafar, but I don`t quite follow your logic.

If you use the same kind of language with both genders thats fine. However, one would assume that you would say the equivalents to each gender. Therefore if you say to Adnan:

``I don`t agree that Enron has had extremely unethical practices in India. You are a lap dog of the godless Communist party``

the female equivalent I`d argue, has more loaded connotations in terms of language and cultural associations. These associations cannot be simply divorced from language.

regards

Hydra

When you get up in the morning, how do you decide which personality youre going to be? Do you rub your eyes, look in the mirror and say ``I feel very Kim today!``? Or is it ``Sunny days mean Aamir, rainy days mean Fatima``?

Veereesh,

I`m afraid our lines are at crossends (is that a completely mixed metaphor)...let me say I appreciate your posts and your walks among us mere interactor mortals!

Could you or anyone else like to write about the Enron/India connection? It seems rather timely...

regards

...traveling General 2nd Class without reservation on the Mumbai-Chennai Express upto Kirkee, Pune ...

Veeresh Unkil, yeh to hamara elakha hai!!

Stuka #490 you listened to Musarrat Nazir while commuting. This morning, while commuting, I listened to Lata part of the way (yes, I am still not done listening to the CDs I mentioned a few months ago on chowk!), and western classical music part of the way. Traffic was s-l-l-ow, but I was in no rush to get to where I was going, and was in my own little seventh heaven for the one hour it took to get where I was going.

Some people build walls around themselves, as defined by national boundries or whatever. You and I know better - unrestricted by such walls, we enjoy whatever comes floating our way - be it music or art of science or deep thoughts on the internet or the company of friends.