The Future Is Another Country: 2050 And Beyond

India has gone from Gandhi to Nehru to Rajiv to Vajpayee. Even Indians would agree that Advani is at the other extreme from Gandhi. Will India chose Advani and put the whole Sub-Continent into a permanent state of potential conflict (not to mention its own Muslim population in conflict), or will it chose Vajpayee, and perhaps start making its way back towards Gandhi?

1) India, 50 years ago, had to decide between Gandhi and Nehru, for the definition of the direction of its relationship with Pakistan.

Gandhi agreed with Jinnah and the British on a joint Sub-Continent under the same foreign policy, military and currency, in which Muslims would have pluralistic representation. Nehru refused this idea. And two countries were created. (I didn`t say this, Wolpert did in his book on Jinnah).

Gandhi openly stated that Kashmiris should decide their own future. Nehru initially stated this, but when he realized that Pakistan would not collapse, and the Kashmiris would join Pakistan overwhelmingly, he backed out. (Wolpert said this also in his book on Gandhi).

Nehru refused to give Pakistan its due share of resources from what the British left over. It took some fasts and convincing from Gandhi for Nehru to agree. (I am not sure whether Wolpert stated this or not. So Gandhi may or may not have fasted).

Unfortunately, India decided to use Nehru as their role model for relations with Pakistan, and did not support Gandhi`s views.

2) Ten years or so ago, India had to decide between the Congress and BJP as its political model for relations with Pakistan. Congress though not pro-Pakistan, had not built its popularity in India, on an agenda of hatred against Pakistan or Muslims. The BJP, by its manifesto, was anti-Muslim and very anti-Pakistan.

The Indians chose the BJP.

3) Now India has to decide between the ideology of Vajpayee or Advani in its relations with Pakistan.

Vajpayee, a unique person amongst the BJP, seems sincerely interested in solving the Kashmir problem, and in having good relations with Pakistan. He seems to be against tearing down mosques, or being in a prepetual state of war against Pakistan. Advani has built his whole career on tearing down a mosque, and blaming Pakistan for each and every problem of India.

This is a crucial time for the Sub-Continent. What the Indians decide right now will decide the future of South Asia.

Pakistan has already decided which direction it wants to go in. India had stated that if Pakistan took one step of friendship with India, India would take two. Now we must wait and see which direction India will go in. The coming UP elections and the subsequent building of the Ram Mandir in mid-March will be two watershed points for India and South Asia.

Indians need to understant that Pakistanis have at least as many complaints against India as India has against Pakistan. Despite these complaints, Pakistanis are asking for de-escalation, talks anytime, and are willing to play cricket. What makes the Indian complaints so special that they are unwilling to de-escalate, and talk? Why does Pakistan not consider Kashmir its, ``atut-ang`` and is willing to accept any decision by the Kashmiris, while India considers Kashmir its, ``atut-ang`` regardless of any decision made by the Kashmiris? Why do Paksitanis on Chowk (including me) are introspecitive enough to openly criticize Pakistan govts.` human rights violations against Bangladeshis, while nearly every single Indian on Chowk supports India`s similar violations against Kashmiris? Why did Pakistan not blame India for the recent burning down of a Pakistani secretariat building and the bomb explosion near the British Council/Consulate, while India immediately blamed Pakistan for the attack on the American consulate (even when America did not blame Pakistan)?

Is it because Pakistani sh/ */ stinks, while Indian sh/ */t does not stink? Wouldn`t it be better to accept that Indian sh/ */t and Pakistani sh/ */t both stink equally. Until Indians accept that their sh/ */t stinks also, there will never be peace in South Asia. I am not suggesting that Pakistan is not at fault. All I am suggesting is that Indians need to understand and accept that India is at equal fault. If Indians continue to remain brainwashed and consider themselves Ganga- cleansed, and assume Pakistan to be the evil twin, then I am afraid they are only fooling themselves and will take South Asia into a nuclear black hole, sooner or later.

Lets accept we each have an equal amount of grievances, against each other. And start fresh from there. Lets also accept that if we haven`t been able to end our enemity for fifty years, it is about time we brought in other organizations and countries to help, end it. Lets also allow human rights organizations open access to every inch of our respective countries, instead of remaining in a game of, ``he said, she said.``

Pakistan is taking its extremists out of the picture. Shouldn`t India now do the same, instead of electing its extremists and appointing them as a referee on the relations between the Indian and Pakistani people. If Advani wins out in the power game in India that is currently going on, then I am afraid, we may have forces fully deployed on the border, for months and years to come.

These are definitely crucial times; much more so for the Indian society than the Pakistani society (even though the concentration of the rest of the world has been on Pakistan).

An interesting article. I would be interested in Indian replies on the accuracy of this information, and whether all Indian voters are more likely to vote for a party which threatens war with Pakistan. Is what is politically successful in UP, comon in all of India. Is the direction India wants to head in?

I doubt you will see any major parties in Pakistan`s upcoming elections, attempting to get votes by piling up the Pakistani military on the Indian border.

```Terrorism` Casts Shadow Over India`s Campaign

Ruling Party Rallies Poor With Anti-Pakistan Rhetoric

By Rajiv Chandrasekaran

Sunday, January 27, 2002

BARABANKI, India -- Donning a garland of hot-pink roses and climbing atop a rickety platform, the chief minister of Uttar Pradesh state railed that the price of potatoes was too low for farmers to make a profit, the cost of health care was too high and the availability of electricity was insufficient in rural areas.

Then, as the crowd of several thousand poor farmers started to pay attention, he shifted into the main act of his stump speech, his tone becoming even more fiery. ``The terrorism crisis in India is huge,`` intoned the minister, Rajnath Singh, a key figure in India`s ruling Bharatiya Janata Party.

Singh cast the main opposition party as soft on terrorism. His party, he told the audience, deserves to stay in power because it has taken a hard-line stance against neighboring Pakistan, which Indian officials accuse of sponsoring Muslim militants who have committed terrorist attacks in India.

``If Pakistan doesn`t change its ways, there will be no sign of Pakistan left (my note: is the Chief Minister suggesting a nuclear war. If that is so, then how will he protect UP against a counter nuclear strike by Pakistan?),`` Singh shouted to vigorous applause. ``Our fight against terrorism will be decisive.``

With crucial elections weeks away in Uttar Pradesh and three other states, India`s unwillingness to back down from a month-long military standoff with Pakistan is driven by more than security and foreign policy objectives, according to diplomats, analysts and even some government officials. In this fractious country of 1 billion people, domestic political considerations are strongly influencing India`s global stance......

Uttar Pradesh, situated in the predominantly Hindu ``cow belt`` that stretches across the plains of northern India, is the country`s largest and most politically significant state. With 166 million people, it would be the world`s fifth-most-populous nation if it were independent.

While academics, business leaders and other members of India`s upper classes in New Delhi and Bombay worry that a conflict with Pakistan could have devastating consequences, villagers here are unabashedly hawkish, casting the confrontation as a long-awaited showdown between Hindus and Muslims.

``What`s wrong with a war?`` growled Rajesh Kumar Soni, a driver who was talking to friends outside a small store. ``We should finish them off once and for all. (my note: once again does this imply a nuclear strike?)``

Others quickly chimed in. ``We need to take strong actions,`` said Amit Yadav, a college student. ``We should not waste our time negotiating.``

On the other hand, some in the BJP question whether stressing terrorism, which is regarded as a national issue, will alienate voters who may be more concerned about poverty, health care and education......

``For the BJP, this is not just a fight against Pakistan,`` a Western diplomat said. ``It`s a fight at the polls.``.....

But with informal surveys indicating overwhelming support for aggressive measures to combat terrorism, the Hindu-nationalist BJP has opted to make the issue its dominant campaign theme. The party is distributing 1 million posters with Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee`s face superimposed over a group of militants. Singh, the chief minister, drives around the state in a truck with images of a tank, a fighter jet and a machine gun-toting soldier painted on the sides. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44074-2002Jan26.html)

Whatever happened to all the talk of Indian and Pakistani common folk being freindly, and only the govts. and politicians wanting war? Is the UP vote directly proportional to war with Pakistan, then one would have to say that most Indians (at least in UP) also support their politicians views, and are even dictating their politicians views, regarding war with Pakistan.

If Pakistani politicians and leaders take the same line for getting votes, we will soon have a war.

jay #37
`` have to agree with you, what a great man azghar is, that is why he was in india, illegally entered through banglasdesh to promote his noble ideas``

Yes, and Pakistanis are willing to risk nuclear war for this hero who entered India holding a PORTUGESE passport. Incredibly generous people, these Pakistanis!

PS: No wonder they (Pakis) are so thrilled with India being lectured about its Army and being nonviolent, oh how much opportunity for social work for prinicipled Pakistanis like Masood Azhar. land of gold, nothing less..

Romair #29
``whether all Indian voters are more likely to vote for a party which threatens war with Pakistan``

You are showing interest in Indian public opinion approx. 8 months too late. Around June/July last year, the President of India referred to Musharraf as `a proud son of Delhi`, the Indian press and media hung on Musharraf`s every word and gesture and gave him more coverage than all Indian leaders combined, the Indian urban upper classes was swooned over Musharraf`s designer persona and vigor.

Neither the BJP, nor the Chief Minister of UP, nor common Indian voters you refer to, protested at any of this. Even the `fascist` RSS joined in, its newspaper celebrated the summit by collaborating with Jang of Pakistan in holding a joint Indo-Pak essay competition on `how to be better neighbours`.

At that time, Romair, you were not interested in the Indian public`s opinion or sentiments, or those of the UP Chief Minister. You and other Pakistanis were too busy gloating, look, this summit is proof that Pakistan`s jihad policy is working, India is bowing down to Pakistan`s successful machinations in Kashmir. India is now willing to talk to the Kargil mastermind, a military dictator, which it refused to do earlier. A policy of violence in Kashmir was declared successful by you and Pakistani newspapers at the time, and a hawk called Advani was projected as the only spoiler of a successful Pakistani strategy to soften Indians.

You should have paid attention to Indian public opinion at that time, you should have realised that the tamasha was not Pakistan`s reward for pursuing a policy of violence in Kashmir but a general Indian willingness to make peace with Pakistan, expressed by a broad spectrum of opinion in India, leaders to media to public.

Today Pakistan`s continuance of the same policy of violence based on the same flawed assumptions about softening India has turned ordinary Indians against Pakistan. It has made war an acceptable option to leaders and public alike across party lines and only now you choose to pay attention to Indian public opinion and are demanding answers..

``There is a tide in affairs of men,
which taken at flood, leads to fortune..``

You and other Pakistanis missed the tide.
Even though Pakistanis like you and Musharraf are so amazingly stupid and hypocritical where you assessment of Indians are concerned, my guess is that you guys are not willing to go to war for your so-called principles.

Ms. Gopal:

Overall, tripe! Aesthetcism (characterized by those exquiste sensiblites that care not if life is a dung heap, but that it produces a rose - that the measure of Art is no objective, but subjective) stands disgraced everywhere but in India, so much like Marx - Like a great many Indians, Ms. Gopal does not let a breath escape her, without spitting venom at Muslims for ``thousand years of invasion and tyranny``.

Individualism? most certainly not, not in this piece. Liberty? certainly not. These ideas never made it into the Indian intelligencia. They masked their resentment of the Ferenghi (The Franks AKA Franj) by never acquainting themselves with the intellectual and religious foundation of the West - succor and promise of ``pay back`` lay in Marx, as does the spirit of this piece. Democracy is holding an election every now and then or regularly - asking ``Why`` - was never a strong point in India or Pakistan

Globalization? If anything it teaches that we can`t do without another? said the Master to the servant, one combatant to the other, the Rich to the poor, the Abuser to the abused - really, just tripe - who edits this stuff???

As I read this I began to feel sorry for the Indian - why does he or she feel the need to assert themselves globally - does it have anything to do with the fact that they can`t assert themselves inside their own country? Peace with neighbors and minorities? while you and other ``serious`` intellectuals, insists that they are wounded by a millenia of ``invasion and tryanny`` and cannot heal? Is the Indian or for that matter the Pakistan, Clanish, tribal, parochial, ghetto loving, abroad, because he or she has not made the intellectual and moral connection to be free in their countries of birth?

A south Asian confederation or federation or something that will allow The vision of the Hindu nationalist to rule supreme. Is this what what you mean by the ``past to be reconciled with the future? What planet are you on? Just being reconciled with ourselves is the order of the day. This by definition entails encounters with Liberty, Freedoms and meaning in a moral framework.

The two questions of primary importance for Hindu Indians : What does it mean to be a Hindu? followed by the question ``Why`` to what answer they come up with.

In this way they are like their neighbors to their West - who similarly need to answer, What does it mean to be a Muslim? Why?

hobbyty # 33

I can`t begin to imagine I get Popper and Soroush anywhere near as thoroughly as you do. I am sympathetic to that line of reasoning, although, I have many questions/issues I need to figure out in my mind.

My belief is that articles like this one are not worth the paper they are written on/type writer they are typed on unless there is something CONCRETE at the end of it. We have had enough hand waving and empty words to keep us busy a few millennia.

But what is the alternative to these rose-scented papier-mache articles? Popper and Sourush? I think they provide at least part of the answer. I just have to convince myself that they provide the full answer. Fair Sir?

P.S. Even as we discuss some of these important ideas, in a mutually beneficial, calm manner, I hope we will continue to fight on other issues...for example, I am questioning Musharraf`s sincerity toward India....I am sure you (and other Pakistanis) will have enough ammo to blast me with :)

Regards.

urstruly, ylh ras siddique and all other pompous pakistani buffoons:

Oh yeah! You Pakistanis really love us Indians and are so level headed about your attitudes to India and wait for it, Hindus! Your newspapers, television, writers, so called ``intelligentsia``, you are all so magnanimous, whiter than white, wonderful peace lovers.

As Akash so rightly said, as you reap, so shall you sew...shove it up your noses you pile of intellectually decrepit hypocrites.

(Why the hell are terrorists like Urstruly so upset by Indian hatred for Pakistan to the extent that they hang on every word of the great Kaffir`s TV stations. Listen, you idiot, any sentient Indian will be blasted by white hot heat if they watch the excrement produced in your media for five minutes. Stick to it yourself and stop whinging like a little crybaby. And that goes for all of you Pakis)

hamidm:

The choice insult in my household and with all my friends is ``mangy smelly Pakistani``. Usually I would add dog at the appendage but that would be unnecessary, you know why.

re: ylh

{{I presume you are talking about India. And you have the nerve to call me delusional? The day India obtains 75% literacy ... is still too far away, but I wish you all the best.}}

umm, retard, i`m quoting what the author wrote...and the exact number is irrelevant to my point anyway...but now that you`ve stuck your delusional arse into this, let me remind you that India`s per capita and literacy rate are HIGHER than pakistan`s....

delusion is talking grandly about secularism in a country run by a military dictator...a country named the ISLAMIC republic of pakistan...a country with a constitution lying in the dustbin...a country on the verge of bankruptcy...a country created by a power-hungry fool looking for a `secular` country exclusively for Muslims...a country which has lost 3 wars to India and continues to indulge in hot air bravado...a country that produces people like you who have an incredibly hard time accepting the obvious facts stated above...

Ms. Gopal.

Excellent piece! Looking forward to more of your work.

regards

freedom of press, pakistani style...

{{ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- The Wall Street Journal says a staff reporter who has been missing since Wednesday has been abducted.

Steven Goldstein, a spokesman for the New York-based newspaper, told CNN the Journal received four photos of Daniel Pearl in an e-mail. One of the photos showed Pearl, 38, held at gunpoint; two others showed him chained; and the fourth showed him holding up a newspaper.

The photos were sent to another Journal correspondent via e-mail and revealed by the newspaper Sunday. The U.S. government is aware of the photos, Goldstein said. He said writing on them indicates the abductors think Pearl is a spy for the Central Intelligence Agency.}}

Jay----37

[For pakistanis education makes absolutely no difference]

You really learn fast.Others are still trundellig towards this reality.

Haven`t you had enough of those whose brindrabun of education is infested with ibids,etals,biblios,

and iquotes?Unfortunately such educated but not learned kind have the reins of kalloo-colonialism in their hands.

Why is it that every dropout elsewhere in the world is the paymaster of phD & MBA type?In kanjar-lands those weaned on such alphabet-soup spend rest of their lives by denigrating those who tolerate their kanjarised westernism.

When the great Agha Jaani Kaashmiri(I was fortunate to be considered among his buddies despite a 1.5 generation gap)was asked how much education he had he replied mischievously,``only two grades more than Shakespeare``.

(Agha Jaani was a great script writer & director of Urdu/hindvee movies.Taqdeer,Anmol ghadi, ghazal among them)

__________________________________________________

DE-EDUCATION & DE-PROGRESS is the crying call of the times.And this is not a hindu-muslim issue either.Perhaps you forgot to notice that I reproduced only that which has no communal current.

The ``MESSAGE`` not the ``MESSENGER`` as DRUMZ so passionately reminds us.(I like him as much as I like YLH).

Young people with passion,however`misguided`,lend beauty,colour,and fragrance to Life itself )

The Pharoah,Nimrod,Caligula & Shaddad and all other tyrants did this.Nothing new or `modern` about it.

What next Killing all male first-born?

__________________________________________________

Netcast this by chainmail.

! RAISETHEFIST.COM FOUNDER RAIDED BY FBI AND SECRET SERVICE! URGENT!!! (english)

by anonymous 11:56pm Thu Jan 24 `02 (Modified on 2:48am Mon Jan 28 `02)



about 25-30 agents raided home of raisethefist.com`s founder.

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FBI and secret service entered the house, seizing all servers and political liturature. Raisethefist.com was currently being ran within the founders room of the house, over a computer network. The room was literarly ransacked, and all equipment, disks, cd`s .. etc. were boxed up, loaded into a truck and seized until further notice.

Since 1999, raisethefist.com has been under extensive government monitering. At times, Raisethefist.com has recieved over 100 hits from the U.S Department of Defense in a single day. The FBI, police department, NSA (and who else) continuesly monitered the site on a daily basis. Even government`s..........

READ THE REST ON THIS CHILLING SITE:It might make you rearrange your ``educatedness``



http://www.indymedia.org:8081//front.php3?article_id=123728

Ralph/Prem #17: Masood Azhar`s speeches are no different than the speeches from Fernandes, and Advani. The current Chief Minister of UP, Rajnath Singh, has stated, ````We should finish them off once and for all.`` (Washington Post). The, ``them`` in this case is Pakistan. I believe the COAS of India has stated, that it would be, ``jolly good`` if India went to war against Pakistan.

There is however one huge difference. The Masood Azhars of Pakistan have never had any chance of getting elected into any office in Pakistan. Their chances are zero. Specifically, Masood Azhar is under house arrest in Pakistan. He will never have control of Pakistan`s nuclear weapons, or have the authority to declare war against India, regardless of how many speeches he makes.

While in India, Advani and Fernandes are running the country. Advani maybe the Prime-Minister in waiting, and already the most powerful man in India. While Fernandes controls the defence forces. They have their finger on the nuclear button, and have openly declared war on Pakistan. Rajnath Singh is the Chief Minister of India`s most influential electoral province. These guys are not dictators or vocal leaders of extremist parties like Thackeray. They have been voted into power by the average Indian, thus representing the desires and feelings of India.

So, tell me, what is scarier? Masood Azhar, with no leadership position in the Pakistan govt., and nearly zero political following, shouting anti-indian slogans from under house arrest. Or the fully elected BJP leadership, threatening to finish off Pakistan, once and for all.

You need to get a bit realistic and start criticizing (or at least not supporting) your own leaderships, which are as extremist as the Masood Azhars of Pakistan; the only difference being you vote for these leaderships, while Pakistani never vote for Masood Azhars.

hamidm #26
``faulein sadna goebbels``
You got that right. hamzad is an honest Pakistani, and calls a kanjar a kanjar(whatever that is, perhaps its a spade). I keep a machette at home not only for people like him but hypocrites too.

Romair # 27

The basic premise of your argument that India has metamorphesed from Gandhi`s India into Vajpayee`s India is wrong. Your argument is built around the basic notion that Gandhi and Vajpayee are two different things; is actually wrong.

If we go back in history, it is interesting to note that it was not the Muslim religious leadership who figurered out the grand Hindu-Chanakia designs, it was the ``enlighetend`` and ``secular`` (as ylh puts it so fervently) leadership of Muslim League who smelled the rat in Hindus soup. Religious leadership on the other hand was conned into beleiving that a untited India will gurantee an egaliterian society. In order to appease the religious leadership (of Muslims) Hindus had to use the rhetoric of equality and secularism. So after partition the so-called Nehru-ism, that is, secular nationalism became a monkey that congress leadership couldn`t get rid of. The survival of Pakistan and its gradual strengthening made it even harder for Hindu leadership to take the facade of secularism off of their faces. Now BJP is exactly what the Muslim League leadership warned us of. That was the face Hindu always had. Anti-Muslim/Anti-Paksitan hate is now genetically ingrained in this nation. All credit goes to the honesty of BJP that it has given confidence to Hindu population to get rid of this dichotomy and be what they are and always have been.