Empty Vessels And All That Jazz
Zeemax February 2, 2002
#188 Posted by SameerJB on February 16, 2002 4:14:51 pm
Sadna #186: You have nicely constructed a reasonable projection of a recent hot topic, leading to total pandemonium and anarchy if historical or biblical injustices are given unnecessarary and disproportionate importance. Within the category of historical injustices, a larger proportion are actually explainable using better logic than biblical-koranic ones. Many Science fiction writers with advanced level scientific background, such as Issac Asimov, Carl Sagan and Carl Djerassi have deconstructed religious myths logically and in many instances, it turns out that the real event was insignificant to be taken seriously, natural calamities, epidemics and often rsulting from the ``mistakes of the victims``. It is very easy to take credit for opponents shortcoming particularly when written years after the actual events. Such writings are fictitios, presented as history because time lapsed dilutes or evaporates any fear of repraisal from ``bad guys``. A current example may be that of Mongols. Not that Mongols were not bad guys but one can write anything about them, blame them for everything because Mongolia now, a very poor third world country, can do nothing to challenge. Similarly, you must remember, by the 5th century BC, Egyptians were very weak and later during Jesus times, Ptolomys in Egypt were weak and during Mohammed`s time, one can say anything against Pharoah or Ptolomys without any fear of repraisal.
Having said this about historical injustices, let me differentiate them from some of the historical injustices continuing to this day. You know what I am talking about - the status of women, untouchables and many others. They need to be challenged with full force. These issues are old but even more relevant today than in the past.
Having said this about historical injustices, let me differentiate them from some of the historical injustices continuing to this day. You know what I am talking about - the status of women, untouchables and many others. They need to be challenged with full force. These issues are old but even more relevant today than in the past.
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#186 Posted by saminashah on February 16, 2002 3:07:56 am
Sadna,
Nice work, that last post!
in admiration,
Nice work, that last post!
in admiration,
#185 Posted by sadna on February 15, 2002 4:59:35 pm
SameerJB
Actions in last 5-50 years and why there is nothing left in the cookie jar can hidden in narratives stretching back hundreds of years, namely in historic conflicts.
Just imagine what the Senate hearings on Enron would be in context of historic conflicts.
Ken Lay appears before the Senate subcommittee to answer questions on why vast numbers of his stockholders lost their life`s savings because they were misled by profit-loss figures put out by Enron, but he did nothing to save the situation and he still owns 8 houses and many million dollars in the bank.
In view of ongoing historic-cum-ethnic conflicts, there are large groups of his fellow church-goers raising slogans outside Capitol Hill about how Ken Lay is a Godfearing man and the Senate committee is out to defame their religion. Senate committee members get threats from people who are only defending their religion afterall, why can`t the committee examine the root cause of these threats namely historic injustices?
Now, a member of the subcommittee Robert Toricelli(Senator(D) from NJ)asks hard questions about what Ken Lay knew and did in the last 2 years as head of Enron.
If Ken Lay is Christian, he will answer by arguing how Toricelli is trying to defame Lay because of a historic conflict in which Toricelli`s ancestors, the Romans, crucified Jesus Christ and threw early Christians to the lions. They even fiddled while Rome burnt, which doesnot say much for Torricelli as member of any responsible government body( and look at those corrupt and quickchange artist Italian cabinets in his home country).
If Ken Lay is a Jew, he will point out how the Senate hearing is a continuation of persecution of Jews from biblical times, He will present statistics on how the percentage of Jews asked to testify on financial matters is abnormal and how Toricelli`s own Pope helped Nazis capture and murder Jews during WWII, and that Toricelli is the newest face in the Jewish-Christian conflict.
If Ken Lay happens to be Catholic like Toricelli, well Toricelli`s Sicilian ethnic brothers have taken control of Houston`s real estate business, its churches and underworld and Toricelli is their agent trying to defame him and force him to sell his 8 houses at a loss (Ken Lay will know this last is sadna`s personal concoction, which proves that a indoo conspiracy is everywhere)
Torricelli will then say that Ken Lay refuses to give straight answers because Ken Lay is a anti Catholic WASP, his White Anglosaxon Protestant forefathers disrespected Italian Americans calling them `dago` and he is trying to delegitimise Torricelli`s Senate election, witness the historic American injustice of preventing Catholics from winning elections until JFK scraped through somehow.
Ken Lay will point out that JFK won due to the support of Catholic gangsters in Chicago, a Papal conspiracy to undermine America`s Protestant roots and create a client state for the Vatican which is not reconciled to losing world power to state secularism. Witness how anti-abortionists have penetrated the White House and the US Supreme Court, and are even killing doctors not far from Torricelli`s NJ.
Moreover, the unprincipled stockholders of Enron are only looking for a scapegoat, afterall they were majority stockholders with their 401(k)s and stuff and even paid Lay`s salary. An ominous sign of eroding Christian values, relativism, godless materialism and refusal to take personal responsibility just like their representative the liberal democrat treehugger Torricelli.
Lay can also talk of Wall Street`s Catholic Jewish conspiracy which ran a calculated run on Enron out of pure envy of WASP success in America.
Suppose(it can happen!) the Senate committee is interested in only one conspiracy, namely the difference between Enron`s profit-loss figures and the reality, the historic basis of only one myth, namely Ken Lay`s honesty in backing these figures as Chairman and ONLY one historic moment in time, namely decision taken personally by Ken Lay, when the information on accounting practices and potential collapse of Enron was on his desk and he was alone in his room with the door closed.
With all the historic conflicts going on, they willnot get this information, so perhaps its best to say `Ken Lay, you are a victim of historic conflicts, so lets stop talking about it and start fighting it, may the best man win`.
Actions in last 5-50 years and why there is nothing left in the cookie jar can hidden in narratives stretching back hundreds of years, namely in historic conflicts.
Just imagine what the Senate hearings on Enron would be in context of historic conflicts.
Ken Lay appears before the Senate subcommittee to answer questions on why vast numbers of his stockholders lost their life`s savings because they were misled by profit-loss figures put out by Enron, but he did nothing to save the situation and he still owns 8 houses and many million dollars in the bank.
In view of ongoing historic-cum-ethnic conflicts, there are large groups of his fellow church-goers raising slogans outside Capitol Hill about how Ken Lay is a Godfearing man and the Senate committee is out to defame their religion. Senate committee members get threats from people who are only defending their religion afterall, why can`t the committee examine the root cause of these threats namely historic injustices?
Now, a member of the subcommittee Robert Toricelli(Senator(D) from NJ)asks hard questions about what Ken Lay knew and did in the last 2 years as head of Enron.
If Ken Lay is Christian, he will answer by arguing how Toricelli is trying to defame Lay because of a historic conflict in which Toricelli`s ancestors, the Romans, crucified Jesus Christ and threw early Christians to the lions. They even fiddled while Rome burnt, which doesnot say much for Torricelli as member of any responsible government body( and look at those corrupt and quickchange artist Italian cabinets in his home country).
If Ken Lay is a Jew, he will point out how the Senate hearing is a continuation of persecution of Jews from biblical times, He will present statistics on how the percentage of Jews asked to testify on financial matters is abnormal and how Toricelli`s own Pope helped Nazis capture and murder Jews during WWII, and that Toricelli is the newest face in the Jewish-Christian conflict.
If Ken Lay happens to be Catholic like Toricelli, well Toricelli`s Sicilian ethnic brothers have taken control of Houston`s real estate business, its churches and underworld and Toricelli is their agent trying to defame him and force him to sell his 8 houses at a loss (Ken Lay will know this last is sadna`s personal concoction, which proves that a indoo conspiracy is everywhere)
Torricelli will then say that Ken Lay refuses to give straight answers because Ken Lay is a anti Catholic WASP, his White Anglosaxon Protestant forefathers disrespected Italian Americans calling them `dago` and he is trying to delegitimise Torricelli`s Senate election, witness the historic American injustice of preventing Catholics from winning elections until JFK scraped through somehow.
Ken Lay will point out that JFK won due to the support of Catholic gangsters in Chicago, a Papal conspiracy to undermine America`s Protestant roots and create a client state for the Vatican which is not reconciled to losing world power to state secularism. Witness how anti-abortionists have penetrated the White House and the US Supreme Court, and are even killing doctors not far from Torricelli`s NJ.
Moreover, the unprincipled stockholders of Enron are only looking for a scapegoat, afterall they were majority stockholders with their 401(k)s and stuff and even paid Lay`s salary. An ominous sign of eroding Christian values, relativism, godless materialism and refusal to take personal responsibility just like their representative the liberal democrat treehugger Torricelli.
Lay can also talk of Wall Street`s Catholic Jewish conspiracy which ran a calculated run on Enron out of pure envy of WASP success in America.
Suppose(it can happen!) the Senate committee is interested in only one conspiracy, namely the difference between Enron`s profit-loss figures and the reality, the historic basis of only one myth, namely Ken Lay`s honesty in backing these figures as Chairman and ONLY one historic moment in time, namely decision taken personally by Ken Lay, when the information on accounting practices and potential collapse of Enron was on his desk and he was alone in his room with the door closed.
With all the historic conflicts going on, they willnot get this information, so perhaps its best to say `Ken Lay, you are a victim of historic conflicts, so lets stop talking about it and start fighting it, may the best man win`.
#184 Posted by tahmed321 on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
#183 Posted by tahmed321 on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
#182 Posted by tahmed321 on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Zeemax: ``Reply #: 163 tahmed321
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
``Manufacturing, like agriculture, are a diminishing share of the global GNP`` Do elaborate. Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.``
Right. The important thing though is the trend: At the turn of the 20th century, more than 50% of the US labor force was engaged in agriculture (and household servants were the second largest occupation): today only 1% (!!) of the labor force in in agriculture, and produces far greater amounts than was done a hundred years back. Manufacturing is headed the same way: factory automation is a reality in car factories in Japan and other countries. All technical trends are in the direction of automated manufacturing. This includes nanotechnologies where they are starting to build things from the molecular level up based on design information stored in computerized databases. So: the reality is that technology is headed towards making the need for semi-skilled labor obsolete in manufacturing. It is now being said that Korea is probably the last country to have found it`s way out of the economic woods via export of manufactures. CONCLUSION: Instead of worrying about the west not opening it`s markets for manufactured goods, we should be worrying about how to make our educated unemployed part of the ``global economic system``.
#181 Posted by Syed Ahmed on February 15, 2002 2:11:26 pm
Re:AlephNull #174
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
#180 Posted by Syed Ahmed on February 15, 2002 2:11:02 pm
Re:AlephNull #174
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that they do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
#179 Posted by Syed Ahmed on February 15, 2002 2:10:38 pm
Re:AlephNull #174
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that new do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
A couple of questions ..Since the orthodox Jews accept conversions.. why is it that new do not actively proselytize…. As a matter of fact they actively discourage conversions into the fold. Since religious hierarchy in the Jewish faith is genealogical ( ie all priests are Levites – ie descended from Levi Son of Jacob) – the tribe the family etc etc … ho would a convert achieve equal status in the faith without intermarrying somebody with a pedigree within the faith ??? Now Jacob’s twin brother Esau did not have Jewish successors since he was clearly a son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham- was his marriage to Caanites a good reason to be cast out of the faith – or his ablution by marrying Ishmael’s daughter restore his good fortune but denied his children to be called the Jews……
The other question has to do with the covenant of god and the rights of the “ chosen” people….and the whole debate between the Jews and the Gentiles – a fact that resulted in the formation of and spread of the Christian faith. Was the Orthodox faith exclusionary to begin with or was it a result of a future political expedience … Certainly the Rape of Dinah ( Jacob’s daughter) by SChehem –the canaanite - ( and their Subsequent slaughter by Judah and his brothes ie Jacob’s sons ) a resolution to keep the tribe relative clear of external influences….
…
#178 Posted by Syed Ahmed on February 15, 2002 1:48:02 pm
Re:tahmed #172
[I also heard of a thirteenth tribe (I have no idea what happened to the 11th an 12th ones, but presumably they did not get lost like the ten tribes you mention). This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews. But what do I know..]
Perhaps you should read my post again…After Solomon’s death The 10 tribes of Israel formed the northern kingdom of Judah and were soon overrun by the Assyrians and lost to posterity. . The 2 remaining southern tribes formed the kingdom of Israel and survived the Assyrian onslaught – their descendants are the current day Jews
After Jacob’s migration to Egypt - he adopted 2 of his grandchildren – the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh. Thus Joseph would beget two tribes instead of one and that would make th 13 tribes of Israel. This is a very contentious issue in Jewish religious circles and is heavily contested…….
[I also heard of a thirteenth tribe (I have no idea what happened to the 11th an 12th ones, but presumably they did not get lost like the ten tribes you mention). This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews. But what do I know..]
Perhaps you should read my post again…After Solomon’s death The 10 tribes of Israel formed the northern kingdom of Judah and were soon overrun by the Assyrians and lost to posterity. . The 2 remaining southern tribes formed the kingdom of Israel and survived the Assyrian onslaught – their descendants are the current day Jews
After Jacob’s migration to Egypt - he adopted 2 of his grandchildren – the two sons of Joseph - Ephraim and Manasseh. Thus Joseph would beget two tribes instead of one and that would make th 13 tribes of Israel. This is a very contentious issue in Jewish religious circles and is heavily contested…….
#177 Posted by sadna on February 15, 2002 8:50:29 am
SameerJB #177
Er, don`t look now but its Zeemax who has brought up the historicity of biblical conflicts, I am only refusing to discuss them.
Er, don`t look now but its Zeemax who has brought up the historicity of biblical conflicts, I am only refusing to discuss them.
#176 Posted by tahmed321 on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Zeemax #170 Thanks for shedding some light on Li Ka Shing`s activities. I understand he is among the ten richest men in the world today. I thought he was investing heavily in China even when Hong Kong was still under the Brits. Also, I think the fact remains that overseas Chinese investors are a major source of foreign capital inflows to China. I also know of a couple of Chinese colleagues who left the US for China at mid-career, so looks like the Chinese diaspora may finally be finding peace within their homeland after almost a century of strife caused by foreign powers (starting with the Boxer revolution, the Japanese invasion, the civil war and the excesses of the cultural revolution).
#175 Posted by SameerJB on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Sadna: What are you trying to understand from bible and koran? History? Theology? Ethics?
Bible and Koran are as reliable sources of history as Rig Veda or Mahabharata or popul vuh or book of the dead.
History mythologized for about 1000 years and finally written down by two individuals ``E`` and ``J`` during exilic period (around 500-600BC) with practically no archeological or heiroglyphic deciphering to back with is really myths or religion rather than history.
Oh by the way, if you are feeling sympathy for being brought in chains as slaves by Nebuchanezzer to Babylon, don`t worry. Because you do not know the number of people and within 50 years, Nebuchenezzer empire was overrun by Persians and Cyrus (I or II?) freed them to go back to Jerusalem if they so desired. Less than 50 percent chose to go back and rest are/ were the forefathers of Iraqi and Iranian jews.
By the rivers of babylon poem comes from jewish literature and boneyM, a Caribbean group out of Germany (Munich or Hamburg?) who used to play in a night club sang it. Rest of their songs were basically playing famous songs by other singers. Anyway, they were never popular in the west as AbbA, BeeGees, Beatles or Carpenters except in India, Pakistan and Middle East.
Syed Ahmed is right. Assyrians has nothing to do with Syria. Assyrian Empire was in the northern part of Iraq whereas Babylonian was in the southern Iraq, Euphretes and Tigris delta - although at different times. Assyrian were earlier than Babylonians. Syrians were quite popular around the time of Jesus and later. The language spoken in the area, which Jesus also spoke was of Syrian origin, called Eramic or edamic? (sorry could not recall from top of my head). Toynbee actually calls the civilization in the surrounding areas as Syriac around 200BC to 300BC. He gives credit to Islamic Empires as much as adoption of Syriac civilization by Arabs. The Syriac civilization was a mixture of Greek, Phoenician and Babylonian/ Assyrian culture/ civilizations. The problem with Toynbee and his theory is that it does not give enough credit to Judiac culture and monotheism religions and that does not go well in the West since second world war.
Don`t mix religion with history. One has to be out of their mind to split into 12 tribes because of 12 sons and then according to their own accounts, they were slaves and laying bricks for centuries. Sure 12 tribes distinctly separated and yet all sticking together in the same constuction business except when they starting invoking god and cursing everybody who was richer than them. And god started listening by responding to curses in the form of death to first borns and famines. Do you know how many children Ramses fathered before believing in the death of his first born. According to most historian, he still holds the world record of fathering as many as 600 children, some of his own, some through infidelity and some by adoption. Imagine a person devastated with sorrow by the death of first born, with about 30 children of him being born every year.
Why not take a ball, cut into 100 pieces, water them and you have 100 Kauru brothers. I gather they knew cloning thousands of years before dolly.
Bible and Koran are as reliable sources of history as Rig Veda or Mahabharata or popul vuh or book of the dead.
History mythologized for about 1000 years and finally written down by two individuals ``E`` and ``J`` during exilic period (around 500-600BC) with practically no archeological or heiroglyphic deciphering to back with is really myths or religion rather than history.
Oh by the way, if you are feeling sympathy for being brought in chains as slaves by Nebuchanezzer to Babylon, don`t worry. Because you do not know the number of people and within 50 years, Nebuchenezzer empire was overrun by Persians and Cyrus (I or II?) freed them to go back to Jerusalem if they so desired. Less than 50 percent chose to go back and rest are/ were the forefathers of Iraqi and Iranian jews.
By the rivers of babylon poem comes from jewish literature and boneyM, a Caribbean group out of Germany (Munich or Hamburg?) who used to play in a night club sang it. Rest of their songs were basically playing famous songs by other singers. Anyway, they were never popular in the west as AbbA, BeeGees, Beatles or Carpenters except in India, Pakistan and Middle East.
Syed Ahmed is right. Assyrians has nothing to do with Syria. Assyrian Empire was in the northern part of Iraq whereas Babylonian was in the southern Iraq, Euphretes and Tigris delta - although at different times. Assyrian were earlier than Babylonians. Syrians were quite popular around the time of Jesus and later. The language spoken in the area, which Jesus also spoke was of Syrian origin, called Eramic or edamic? (sorry could not recall from top of my head). Toynbee actually calls the civilization in the surrounding areas as Syriac around 200BC to 300BC. He gives credit to Islamic Empires as much as adoption of Syriac civilization by Arabs. The Syriac civilization was a mixture of Greek, Phoenician and Babylonian/ Assyrian culture/ civilizations. The problem with Toynbee and his theory is that it does not give enough credit to Judiac culture and monotheism religions and that does not go well in the West since second world war.
Don`t mix religion with history. One has to be out of their mind to split into 12 tribes because of 12 sons and then according to their own accounts, they were slaves and laying bricks for centuries. Sure 12 tribes distinctly separated and yet all sticking together in the same constuction business except when they starting invoking god and cursing everybody who was richer than them. And god started listening by responding to curses in the form of death to first borns and famines. Do you know how many children Ramses fathered before believing in the death of his first born. According to most historian, he still holds the world record of fathering as many as 600 children, some of his own, some through infidelity and some by adoption. Imagine a person devastated with sorrow by the death of first born, with about 30 children of him being born every year.
Why not take a ball, cut into 100 pieces, water them and you have 100 Kauru brothers. I gather they knew cloning thousands of years before dolly.
#174 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Ref Zeemax #: 170
[Li Ka Shing is (1) not an expatriate Chinese as he lives in Hong Kong which is China now and; (2) he not only never invested in China, but also disinvesting from Hong Kong since it returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997.]
I was reading, most likely in the Far Eastern Economic Review, about how Li Ka Shing was cashing in his real-estate chips and putting his money into ships so that he can float away his assets if the need arises.
[Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.]
As Lee Iacocca put so very well, the USA would have the best army in the world defending McDonald`s and drive-in banks.
What people don`t seem to understand is that the US will never give up high value-add manufacturing to other countries. There is no way you will find Intel relocating a chip design and manufacturing plant (except to Jerusalem, but that is another story). The Intel plants outside the US are in the lowest end of IC manufacturing, namely, assembly of the chip on to chip carriers. They get it done in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia or Philippines because of the low wages there. Nor will the design of the successor to Pentium 4 go overseas to India/China/Singapore or any other country with engineering expertise or low cost labor. Ditto for the Boeing Corporation. A single Boeing 747 at $150 million+ will pay for a lot of $1 T-shirts from Bangladesh or $5 shoes from Brazil
[Li Ka Shing is (1) not an expatriate Chinese as he lives in Hong Kong which is China now and; (2) he not only never invested in China, but also disinvesting from Hong Kong since it returned to Chinese sovereignty in 1997.]
I was reading, most likely in the Far Eastern Economic Review, about how Li Ka Shing was cashing in his real-estate chips and putting his money into ships so that he can float away his assets if the need arises.
[Although the Services Sector is rising but Manufacturing is still the bulk of the rest. I would place Manufacturing at 30% of the total which is a significant chunk.]
As Lee Iacocca put so very well, the USA would have the best army in the world defending McDonald`s and drive-in banks.
What people don`t seem to understand is that the US will never give up high value-add manufacturing to other countries. There is no way you will find Intel relocating a chip design and manufacturing plant (except to Jerusalem, but that is another story). The Intel plants outside the US are in the lowest end of IC manufacturing, namely, assembly of the chip on to chip carriers. They get it done in places like Costa Rica, Malaysia or Philippines because of the low wages there. Nor will the design of the successor to Pentium 4 go overseas to India/China/Singapore or any other country with engineering expertise or low cost labor. Ditto for the Boeing Corporation. A single Boeing 747 at $150 million+ will pay for a lot of $1 T-shirts from Bangladesh or $5 shoes from Brazil
#173 Posted by AlephNull on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Syed Ahmad #147/148
``Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races.``
In point of fact, one can convert into Orthodox Judaism. What is true is that Orthodox Jews do not recognise conversions performed by the other branches of Judaism, i.e. they do not regards converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism as Jews. This further implies that the children of a female convert to non-Orthodox Judaism, married to a Jewish man, brought up as Jews, are nevertheless not considered Jewish by the Orthodox - and so on. The Orthodox are in other respects the most rigid in asserting the static nature of halachah (rabbinical law) and its continuing applicability .. reminiscent of sects of some other Abrahamic religions, perhaps?
tahmed #172
``I also heard of a thirteenth tribe .. This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews.``
You mean the controversial theory of the Khazar origin of Ashkenazi Jews (not all European Jews - Sephardic Jews are of clearly non-Khazar origin).
``Since the orthodox “Jews” are a chosen people – there is no conversion into Judaism…you can be only born into it and its follows a matrilineal tradition ( ie descent from the mother) – consequently Jews can be found in all races.``
In point of fact, one can convert into Orthodox Judaism. What is true is that Orthodox Jews do not recognise conversions performed by the other branches of Judaism, i.e. they do not regards converts to Reform or Conservative Judaism as Jews. This further implies that the children of a female convert to non-Orthodox Judaism, married to a Jewish man, brought up as Jews, are nevertheless not considered Jewish by the Orthodox - and so on. The Orthodox are in other respects the most rigid in asserting the static nature of halachah (rabbinical law) and its continuing applicability .. reminiscent of sects of some other Abrahamic religions, perhaps?
tahmed #172
``I also heard of a thirteenth tribe .. This was supposed (from a book I read many years ago by Arthur Koestler) to live in the Black Sea area and converted to Judaism (after giving salesmen for Islam and Christianity to show their stuff), and were pushed into Hungary by the invading Mongols and from their pushed into the rest of Europe and presumably were the forefathers of the European Jews.``
You mean the controversial theory of the Khazar origin of Ashkenazi Jews (not all European Jews - Sephardic Jews are of clearly non-Khazar origin).
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