The Place of Debate

Veeresh`s enlightening post about George`s Tie is the hallmark of Indian Intellectual tradition (intellectual for the lack of better word).

Chotay Logon Ki Choti Khushian.

Pmishra,

My response unlike your untrue and baseless allegation was printed hours after you posted your

nonsense. The reply is 432 on Farzana Versey`s board.

I want an unconditional apology. You Indians just can`t fight fair can you.

No matter how sophisticated he might sound, its almost always a thin veneer. Indian never loses his fundamental creed: Word twisting for eg Shammi.

Listen dude, you are the one who started the whole sordid business about who visits Pakistan and who doesn`t. Do I need to remind you again of your gloat filled statement about `oh But Ecevet visited us and didn`t visit you`? when I hadn`t so much as mentioned your country`s name in my post. You can`t play fair can you? Admit that you were wrong in trying to rub something like that in my face.

Ref AAmir #: 289

[I think neither the Govt.nor the Majority Non muslims of the subcontinent coherently explained to its constituent WHY MUSLIMS HAVE LEGAL ,POLITICAL & MORAL right just as much as anyone else inside India & it not necessarily b/c of secularism,or hindu ethos just simple fact as EQUAL citizen of a Country .]

Oh yeah? For Muslims in India, it is their RIGHT as a citizen to be treated equal to the majority Hindus but in Pakistan, it is okay to treat non-Muslims as dirt?

What kind of logic is this except the usual: one rule for Muslims and another for the rest?

sigalpha235-----285

[re ali1 280

``...much glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses in Badshahi Masjid!``

Insaan to insaan, bezabaan janwaar ko bhi Hindu-Muslim-Sikh bana diya!

Man, that is a no holds barred communalism.]

__________________________________________________

No I think he really wanted to say ``----scrubbinging the Sikh asses-------``:)----:)

Ref ali1 #: 280

[Motivations!? Simple... dissolution of Pakistan, return of the Khalsa and return to the much glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses in Badshahi Masjid!]

At least you would have reached the level of your incompetence, working as a sanitary engineer in the stables.

Ref dost-mittar #: 277

[But please remember that Muslims in Bangladesh are doing far better relative to Hindus now than they did before partition. The situation there can indeed be compared to what happened between Brahmins and Non-Brahmins in Tamil Nadu after the Brahmins lost political power in that State.]

The percentage of Brahmins in Tamil Nadu is 3%. There is NO way for this community to dominate any spere of activity, particularly when you consider that quite a good portion of these were employed in extremely low-paying jobs such as school teachers (of Sanskrit, Hindi... languages never in great demand in Tamil Nadu) or priests in temples dependent offerings by the pious or priests engaged in performing Hindu rituals in households. The fact is that those of them who had merely a high school education got jobs as clerks in government offices, those with a college degree got slightly more senior positions, those who got professional degrees (law or medicine) made good money. But the last of these were primarily self-made men. The number of mirasdars was rather small and they were primarily in the Cauvery river delta. The myth has been propagated that all Tamil Brahmins lived a life of luxury and ease on the backs of their agricultural workers and is naively believed by people all over India.

The situation in Tamil Nadu is that the politics of envy has taken over, nothing gets done in government offices unless you grease everybody`s palms, the bigger the government contract the more you can be sure that all the ministers including the chief minister are involved, and the way to get ahead is to get a certificate of low-caste birth. With the government opening engineering colleges to compete with neighboring Andhra, you now have code coolies being turned out at an alarming rate; fortunately, with the downturn in US business, these idiots are no longer able to get high-paying jobs or the opportunity to go abroad and so have taken to blaming the Tamil brahmins` exodus to the US on some sort of underground railroad.

As one of my friends who returned to Tamil Nadu to set up his own business after 10 years in the US remarked, ``The MGR government has finally convinced the people of Tamil Nadu not to expect any help from the government for anything. This can only mean progress in the State.`` He has been proved right.

As that old man Thanthai Periyar (Father Big Man, in keeping with the Tamilian`s penchant for calling their leaders by some fancy titles as opposed to their names) EV Ramaswamy Naicker said, ``Sheesh, here we were systematically excluding Brahmins from government jobs and those fellows now have started their own small industries and are turning out to be pretty good enterpreneurs! We should have kept them as clerks!``

By the way, I don`t think the life of a single Pallan or Paraiyan, traditionally the agricultural worker community, has been made easier because of the advent of the DMK government. In fact, working under Thevars and other murderous castes, they are in danger of losing their lives if they oppose their landlords.

YLH, you forgot to mention that Bulen Ecevit`s chaprassi also visits Pakistan more often than he visits India. All Indians should be `ashamed` of this.

PS Just want to let you all know, I don`t have a confirmation of the last Gandhi quote on Jinnah yet, but my source is quite credible given the other quotes that source has provided.

I don`t want to mislead anyone or give anyone any ammunition to discredit my genuine and well researched facts, as Pmishra has tried to do in the past. I will find a proper reference for the mentioned quote.

HOW TRUE:

``The single-mindedness and persistent integrity of Muhammad Ali Jinnah gave him the victory

over all his adversaries,`` Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi.

Re: Nasah #254

``...IT`S TIME FOR US TO STOP BOMBING AFGHANISTAN -- THE-- SOON THERE WILL NO ``TALL MAN`` LEFT IN AFGHANISTAN -- ENOUGH...``

Nasah, check out:

``Strike likely killed top terrorist``

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/default-2002213225013.htm

Re: Romair

``...I don`t see how a rural middle class can emerge, unless political power is forcefully taken out of the hand of the feudals and given to the non-feudals...``

If one assumed (as you do) that plain vanilla democracy in Pakistan will not break the feudals` stranglehold on power, then there remains only one other alternative -- and that is to break the feudals` monopoly on the modes of economic production, not by violent means (as were used in China by Mao) nor by legislative means (as was done by Nehru in India to stamp out the zamindari system since according to you the Pakistan political system is rigged and won`t allow this). The best way would be to break the peasants` dependence on land as a means of production, by moving to either an industrial or a post-industrial, knowledge economy. Either alternative is very daunting and challenging. It requires education (which will empower the masses and allow them to stand up to the feudals), a conducive political-social climate for direct foreign investment, and infrastructure. It is a difficult task, but not an impossible one, especially so given your confidence in the Pakistan human capital.

Ansari--265

[No, I haven`t seen the movie. Not sure how profound simplicity is (what`s profanity got to do with it anyways]

NOTHING whatsoever.But then why did you ask?

But then I have heard some sick(sic) jokes which are equally profane and profound.Sometimes,it is difficult to stifle a laugh and to pretend to get the joke at the same time.

PS:please check out www.dictionary.com

Pmishra,

Its not my fault that you make an outrageously inaccurate claim and then leave for 3 weeks.

Your claim that I didn`t respond is a lie. Kindly go back to Farzana`s Board and see for yourself.

I responded in detail to your post on the other board as Mr.Dost Mittar will testify and not only that I tore to shreds your pathetic argument vis a vis Advani , furthermore I showed you how you were misquoting me. I had put up Bipan Chandra`s post in response to the claim that nobody thought Jinnah was amongst the greatest leaders. Bipan Chandra`s post was not supposed to me the Gospel of truth, but it was to show that he considers Jinnah as one of the 10 greatest leaders in India of the last millenium.

As for positive assessment, in classic Indian style you have once again successfuly obscured my argument by lying. The three books I mentioned, you didn`t even bother read or refute. Those books were

1) Secular and Nationalist Jinnah by Dr Ajeet

2) Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the creation of Pakistan by Sailesh Kumar Bandopadhaya

3) Jinnah the Man of destiny by Prakash Almeida.

It seems to me that all Indians when they can`t counter an argument on facts, pick and choose from the evidence. Anyone who read what I had written in detail knows that not once did I say that Bipan Chandra`s article was the end all, but the article does claim Jinnah to be one of the 10 greatest Indians of the millenium.

Seems like not even the most `educated` of Indians are free from the disease.

Zafar #272

``...This raises the issue: why aren’t there more people from poor families gaining entry to the IITs and IIMs, the IAS, etc...``

Based on my experience, the answer lies in access to good education in middle and high school. There is no way anyone is going to make it to an IIT (the exam for which has the youngest applicant pool of the three options you mentioned) without a good education in the basic sciences and mathematics. Thus, the distortion in high school education is magnified several times over when one has to pass through the filter of an entrance exam.

``...Ditto for women...``

The reason that relatively few women go to IIT has less to do with access to high school education, and more with the lack of appeal that an engineering career had for women (this is not true for computer sciences though, where women are present in droves).

I am troubled by these disparities, and I feel that the state has an obligation in removing them.

Thanks for your insight.

Re: Dost-Mittar #277

``... But please remember that Muslims in Bangladesh are doing far better relative to Hindus now than they did before partition...``

What are the underlying reasons for this? Do you have any statistical evidence? Or could it be that the Hindu mercantile class fled Bangladesh, thus creating an illusion that `Muslims are doing far better relative to Hindus now than they did before partition`.

``...Jinnah knew the historical disadvange of Muslims vis-a-vis Hindus and knew that this disadvantage could be overcome only if Muslims were able to exercise political power...``

What `historical disadvantage` are you referring to? Has that `advantage` of political power led Pakistan/Bangladesh to exceed India in any of the various indicators of human development that I mentioned? If not, then would you not agree that `historical disadvantages` have still not been corrected by `political power`?

So, in the end I still have not read a persuasive argument that supports your original assertion that `Partition benefited the Muslims of Pakistan`

``...I do not like quotas, but I do feel some kind of affirmative action is needed to improve the situation of Muslims to overcome systemic disadvanges faced by them...``

I think that before one jumps to quotas, giving preferential treatment in primary and secondary education should be attempted. A good education can open many doors.

Re: Tvarad

``...witness the drastic reduction in communal riots in the last decade in India with the implemenation of economic reforms...``

That has been a truly stunning and satisfying development.

Re: Nasah #284

I used to harbor the same views as you regarding Indians in general, but came around to concluding much later that I was wrong. There is not a whole lot wrong with Indians, but there is a lot wrong with our institutions and our priorities. Could you be, like me, off the mark?

Re: Ali1

``...glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses...``

Horses have religion, too? I see that Sigalph235 #285 has already responded with similar sentiments.

People like tvarad and mahesh g haven`t been able to negate the facts so now they are responding with stupid statements:

``W.r.t. Jinnah, there could be no further repudiation of his actions than being disowned by his own daughter and grandson who have refused to hand over his ancestral house in Bombay for a Pakistani consulate and don`t want anything to do with him.``

Jinnah himself wanted to retire in that house in Bombay, his conception Pakistan and India was very different, and I for one agree his final vision for Pakistan and India was a confederation.

But the Slobos and Adolfs of the Congress Party, intolerant of the `separatists` much in the same fashion as Serbians were off Slovenians, Bosnians and croatians, (and now Montenegrans and Kosovars) created the communal holocaust to damage Pakisan.



Ali1

Bhai no need to thank me. It is our duty as Pakistanis to dispel such propaganda.



Indians,

So tell me when is your next petition coming up? against the president of the US?



Mahesh G

these are the facts ... and they are unchangeable.

1)The Bulk of the communal massacres happened in East Punjab and due to Indian government looking away.

2)Jinnah`s efforts against the communal massacres were lauded by people Sri Prikasa the first Indian High Commissioner in his book `Insights into Pakistan`.