The Place of Debate
Chowk Staff February 4, 2002
#204 Posted by nasah on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
Sheer joy to read this column.
For Women in Kabul, This Test Is Welcome
By JOHN F. BURNS
KABUL, Afghanistan, Feb. 9 — Afghanistan since the collapse of the Taliban has made many an ordinary event seem extraordinary, and few more so than the task that had Dr. Aziz Ahmad Rahmand, a professor of contemporary Afghan history, bursting with pride, joy and not a little gloating as he hurried about Kabul University on Wednesday.
Dr. Rahmand, 45, was supervising entry examinations, the kind of duty senior professors in most other countries might shun. But not in Afghanistan, where the source of the professor`s bliss lay in the fact that row upon row of women were taking the exam beside men in the library and in many another unheated hall across the bitingly cold campus.
The idea of women learning, of course, was anathema to the Taliban. So the female candidates, many of whom wore their finest shoes to trudge through miles of snow and slush, were mostly 18- to 25-year-olds liberated from five years of Taliban rule spent at home doing chores, and dreaming, as many said, of the improbable day when they might again study to become lawyers, doctors, engineers and teachers.
It was a day for earrings and makeup and handbags and other casual flauntings that would have had the Taliban running for the electrical cables they used for beating women in the street who showed even a glimpse of stocking. In the hallways, the burka, the head-to-toe shroud that became an emblem of Taliban repression, was now a fashion statement, tossed backward from the candidates` heads as if to say, ``Take a hike, Mr. Mullah.``
``The Taliban? I have nothing to say about those people, they did rudely to Afghan women, we are happy to see them go,`` said Fawzia Shahbaz, 25, who explained in self- taught English that she had spent the Taliban years ``just busy at home.`` Now, she said, she hoped to become a teacher, so that she could help other women play a more productive role in Afghan society.
Dr. Rahmand took in all this, and much more. With the Taliban gone, the resumption of studies in March, the traditional beginning of the Afghan university year, would mean, he said, that there would be no more barely educated mullahs insisting that 12 of the 36 hours the students spend in class each six-day week be spent on studies of the Koran, though the residual power of mullahs would mean that students would continue some Islamic studies.
Nor would the worst of the mullahs be around to ban books from the library, or to have their followers shooting Kalashnikov rounds at proscribed volumes on gynecology and human rights and other abhorred subjects that now sit as testament to the Taliban`s ways in glass cases in the library`s lobby.
What conclusion did Dr. Rahmand think it most important to draw from all this happiness? Unprompted by American visitors, he, like many others on the campus, spent much of his time doing something else that professors elsewhere do not generally do with such enthusiasm: praising a politician, in this case President Bush. If Mr. Bush wants to give a convocation address on a campus where he is certain to be welcomed with a tidal wave of approval, he might consider Kabul.
``We wish to help you, because Mr. Bush has helped us, by driving out these terrible Taliban,`` Dr. Rahmand said in rusty French learned during studies in Europe.
``I myself was a victim of their totalitarian ways. I had to grow a ridiculous beard, they ransacked my library, they banned me from teaching any 20th-century Afghan history.
``Monsieur, they were monsters, and Mr. Bush has chased them away.`` At that, Dr. Rahmand flourished his university identity card, showing a man with a long-tailed turban and an eight-inch salt-and- pepper beard, barely recognizable as the now-clean-shaven professor in the natty suit and tie and trim French raincoat pulled from a trunk at home for today`s exam vigil.
``Just look at me!`` he said. ``Quite absurd! And here I am now, no beard, no turban, in charge of the examinations. Marvelous!``
The university the students will attend will differ in important ways from the one that went into recess when the American bombing began in October. Yet in some ways, it will remain hobbled by the legacy of years of pedagogical convolutions by the Taliban, the anti-Soviet guerrilla groups that governed before them and the Afghan Communists before them. As professors and students tell it, it may be years before it is again a completely normal place.
For one thing, a lack of financing and qualified candidates will mean that it will take time before enrollment numbers approach the 10,000 students who studied at the university before the Communist coup of 1979 and the ensuing Soviet invasion.
________________________________________________
About 60 per cent of the students in the 1970`s were women, a figure almost unmatched elsewhere in Asia at the time, and one also unlikely to be replicated soon.
__________________________________________________
Enrollment last year was 2,500, and even if all of the 1,500 women expected to take the entrance exam this month qualify, many classrooms will remain empty.
Finding qualified teaching staff is another problem. Dr. Rahmand, the historian, said only 18 of the 250 members of the teaching staff last year had doctorates, the remnants of a faculty that disintegrated over the years as millions of Afghans fled abroad.
While some professors have begun to trickle back from Pakistan and Iran, many others have settled in the United States and Europe, Dr. Rahmand said, and they were unlikely to return to jobs that carried a current salary equivalent to $20 a month, compared with the $500 a month paid here in the late 1970`s.
Books, too, are in short supply. Years of no acquisitions, along with theft and book burning — and that novelty of Taliban literary criticism, book shooting — have left many shelves in the library empty.
The chief librarian, Muhammad Sadiq Wadid, 40, came running after the visitors to make a special request. ``We say hello to the educated people in the Western countries,`` he said, ``and we ask them, kindly, if you have any books about the technical and scientific world, engineering, literature — anything! — please send them to us.
``The Afghan people are in darkness, and we ask the Western countries to help us shine some light,`` he said.
For Women in Kabul, This Test Is Welcome
By JOHN F. BURNS
KABUL, Afghanistan, Feb. 9 — Afghanistan since the collapse of the Taliban has made many an ordinary event seem extraordinary, and few more so than the task that had Dr. Aziz Ahmad Rahmand, a professor of contemporary Afghan history, bursting with pride, joy and not a little gloating as he hurried about Kabul University on Wednesday.
Dr. Rahmand, 45, was supervising entry examinations, the kind of duty senior professors in most other countries might shun. But not in Afghanistan, where the source of the professor`s bliss lay in the fact that row upon row of women were taking the exam beside men in the library and in many another unheated hall across the bitingly cold campus.
The idea of women learning, of course, was anathema to the Taliban. So the female candidates, many of whom wore their finest shoes to trudge through miles of snow and slush, were mostly 18- to 25-year-olds liberated from five years of Taliban rule spent at home doing chores, and dreaming, as many said, of the improbable day when they might again study to become lawyers, doctors, engineers and teachers.
It was a day for earrings and makeup and handbags and other casual flauntings that would have had the Taliban running for the electrical cables they used for beating women in the street who showed even a glimpse of stocking. In the hallways, the burka, the head-to-toe shroud that became an emblem of Taliban repression, was now a fashion statement, tossed backward from the candidates` heads as if to say, ``Take a hike, Mr. Mullah.``
``The Taliban? I have nothing to say about those people, they did rudely to Afghan women, we are happy to see them go,`` said Fawzia Shahbaz, 25, who explained in self- taught English that she had spent the Taliban years ``just busy at home.`` Now, she said, she hoped to become a teacher, so that she could help other women play a more productive role in Afghan society.
Dr. Rahmand took in all this, and much more. With the Taliban gone, the resumption of studies in March, the traditional beginning of the Afghan university year, would mean, he said, that there would be no more barely educated mullahs insisting that 12 of the 36 hours the students spend in class each six-day week be spent on studies of the Koran, though the residual power of mullahs would mean that students would continue some Islamic studies.
Nor would the worst of the mullahs be around to ban books from the library, or to have their followers shooting Kalashnikov rounds at proscribed volumes on gynecology and human rights and other abhorred subjects that now sit as testament to the Taliban`s ways in glass cases in the library`s lobby.
What conclusion did Dr. Rahmand think it most important to draw from all this happiness? Unprompted by American visitors, he, like many others on the campus, spent much of his time doing something else that professors elsewhere do not generally do with such enthusiasm: praising a politician, in this case President Bush. If Mr. Bush wants to give a convocation address on a campus where he is certain to be welcomed with a tidal wave of approval, he might consider Kabul.
``We wish to help you, because Mr. Bush has helped us, by driving out these terrible Taliban,`` Dr. Rahmand said in rusty French learned during studies in Europe.
``I myself was a victim of their totalitarian ways. I had to grow a ridiculous beard, they ransacked my library, they banned me from teaching any 20th-century Afghan history.
``Monsieur, they were monsters, and Mr. Bush has chased them away.`` At that, Dr. Rahmand flourished his university identity card, showing a man with a long-tailed turban and an eight-inch salt-and- pepper beard, barely recognizable as the now-clean-shaven professor in the natty suit and tie and trim French raincoat pulled from a trunk at home for today`s exam vigil.
``Just look at me!`` he said. ``Quite absurd! And here I am now, no beard, no turban, in charge of the examinations. Marvelous!``
The university the students will attend will differ in important ways from the one that went into recess when the American bombing began in October. Yet in some ways, it will remain hobbled by the legacy of years of pedagogical convolutions by the Taliban, the anti-Soviet guerrilla groups that governed before them and the Afghan Communists before them. As professors and students tell it, it may be years before it is again a completely normal place.
For one thing, a lack of financing and qualified candidates will mean that it will take time before enrollment numbers approach the 10,000 students who studied at the university before the Communist coup of 1979 and the ensuing Soviet invasion.
________________________________________________
About 60 per cent of the students in the 1970`s were women, a figure almost unmatched elsewhere in Asia at the time, and one also unlikely to be replicated soon.
__________________________________________________
Enrollment last year was 2,500, and even if all of the 1,500 women expected to take the entrance exam this month qualify, many classrooms will remain empty.
Finding qualified teaching staff is another problem. Dr. Rahmand, the historian, said only 18 of the 250 members of the teaching staff last year had doctorates, the remnants of a faculty that disintegrated over the years as millions of Afghans fled abroad.
While some professors have begun to trickle back from Pakistan and Iran, many others have settled in the United States and Europe, Dr. Rahmand said, and they were unlikely to return to jobs that carried a current salary equivalent to $20 a month, compared with the $500 a month paid here in the late 1970`s.
Books, too, are in short supply. Years of no acquisitions, along with theft and book burning — and that novelty of Taliban literary criticism, book shooting — have left many shelves in the library empty.
The chief librarian, Muhammad Sadiq Wadid, 40, came running after the visitors to make a special request. ``We say hello to the educated people in the Western countries,`` he said, ``and we ask them, kindly, if you have any books about the technical and scientific world, engineering, literature — anything! — please send them to us.
``The Afghan people are in darkness, and we ask the Western countries to help us shine some light,`` he said.
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#203 Posted by shammi on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
Re: Dost-Mittar
``...To me, this sort of genuine acceptance, and not mere tolerance, of others` beliefs is one of the core features of Hinduism...``
Yes -- I must admit that I had never paid much attention to this type of pluralism, and had taken it for granted.
``...But there is a preponderance of evidence to show that Muslims in what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh were economically lagging behind their Hindu counterparts...``
Perhaps, it was a real problem based upon anecdotal evidence. However, to suggest that Partition (alongwith trading barriers) would fix it, may have been addressing the issue the wrong way around. Have Pakistan/Bangladesh slipped behind or forged ahead of India economically (or more importantly, has the subcontinent been delivered to economic nirvana as a result of Partition?)-- if the answer is that they have not, then clearly the economics justification does not amount to much. Further, when we learned to our dismay that Nehruvian economics (erecting barricades, cloistering sources of production, disengaging from the global economcy) is a bad formula, that should have convinced everyone that the way to advance economically is not through disengagement, but through greater competition and a level playing field -- both very tough to implement, but nevertheless the right way of going about doing things.
``...Although I can`t cite any hard statistics, the impression of most Pakistani visitors to India is that Indian Muslims are lagging in economic progress both with respect to the Hindus in India and Muslims in Pakistan...``
Well that is a problem -- can`t accept evidence at face value. Have you investigated whether such observations may be in line with gleaning selective evidence to support the prevailing mythology (i.e. `Muslims would be discriminated against in a united India, and presto! look how badly off they are? Told you so`). Last night, I met a Pakistani boy married to an Indian Muslim girl who is a software engineer and had been admitted to IIT. The girl`s father was a high-ranking govt. officer (secretary level) in India, and her 23-year old sister was the only one selected out of 800 applicants for a position in the Indian Army Medical Corps. Basically, her story was no different than any number of middle class families in India. Based upon this anecdotal evidence, would I be right to say things are hunky-dory for all Muslims in India? No. Only an economic survey would suffice. Until then, I will desist from making provocative judgment calls that can inflame opinions.
``...Do you know of any evidence that would contradict the above?...``
I think that I contradicted anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence, and this cannot be used to propogate or discredit myths
``...To me, this sort of genuine acceptance, and not mere tolerance, of others` beliefs is one of the core features of Hinduism...``
Yes -- I must admit that I had never paid much attention to this type of pluralism, and had taken it for granted.
``...But there is a preponderance of evidence to show that Muslims in what are now Pakistan and Bangladesh were economically lagging behind their Hindu counterparts...``
Perhaps, it was a real problem based upon anecdotal evidence. However, to suggest that Partition (alongwith trading barriers) would fix it, may have been addressing the issue the wrong way around. Have Pakistan/Bangladesh slipped behind or forged ahead of India economically (or more importantly, has the subcontinent been delivered to economic nirvana as a result of Partition?)-- if the answer is that they have not, then clearly the economics justification does not amount to much. Further, when we learned to our dismay that Nehruvian economics (erecting barricades, cloistering sources of production, disengaging from the global economcy) is a bad formula, that should have convinced everyone that the way to advance economically is not through disengagement, but through greater competition and a level playing field -- both very tough to implement, but nevertheless the right way of going about doing things.
``...Although I can`t cite any hard statistics, the impression of most Pakistani visitors to India is that Indian Muslims are lagging in economic progress both with respect to the Hindus in India and Muslims in Pakistan...``
Well that is a problem -- can`t accept evidence at face value. Have you investigated whether such observations may be in line with gleaning selective evidence to support the prevailing mythology (i.e. `Muslims would be discriminated against in a united India, and presto! look how badly off they are? Told you so`). Last night, I met a Pakistani boy married to an Indian Muslim girl who is a software engineer and had been admitted to IIT. The girl`s father was a high-ranking govt. officer (secretary level) in India, and her 23-year old sister was the only one selected out of 800 applicants for a position in the Indian Army Medical Corps. Basically, her story was no different than any number of middle class families in India. Based upon this anecdotal evidence, would I be right to say things are hunky-dory for all Muslims in India? No. Only an economic survey would suffice. Until then, I will desist from making provocative judgment calls that can inflame opinions.
``...Do you know of any evidence that would contradict the above?...``
I think that I contradicted anecdotal evidence with more anecdotal evidence, and this cannot be used to propogate or discredit myths
#202 Posted by rsaxena on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
re: ylh
{{And if you had seen closely, Indians love arguing with me, I don`t like arguing with them.}}
Indians, including me, love deriving juvenile pleasure pushing your buttons and watching you go haywire. Big difference between that `arguing` as you call it.
{{My statements and proclamations are all for PAKISTANIS.}}
whohahahah...so Pakistanis are the ones who need to be convinced of Jinnah`s greatness?? I thought they all knew that already ...
dude, you are losing it....
{{And if you had seen closely, Indians love arguing with me, I don`t like arguing with them.}}
Indians, including me, love deriving juvenile pleasure pushing your buttons and watching you go haywire. Big difference between that `arguing` as you call it.
{{My statements and proclamations are all for PAKISTANIS.}}
whohahahah...so Pakistanis are the ones who need to be convinced of Jinnah`s greatness?? I thought they all knew that already ...
dude, you are losing it....
#201 Posted by shankar on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
ylh,
{{And what diagnosis can a man make of a shrink who thinks he can diagnose through the internet?? Extraordinary extra sensory perception perhaps?}}
Youre right, I cant make an accurate diagnosis through the internet. In fact, shrinks dont make accurate ``diagnoses`` even in real life. Unlike other specialities, we dont have the luxury of blood tests, CT scans, X-Rays etc to make an accurate diagnosis. So we give opinions, based on certain behavior patterns we witness. Opinions, by their very nature, are subjective. Therefore shrinks disagree with each other all the time. Its not an exact science.
My opinions about you are based on the zillions of posts you have rattled out on Chowk. Also, a part of my opinion is based on the very public fight you had with kabuliwallah--someone you said is a close friend of yours.
Romair is very right when he he says that your knowlege about certain subjects is 5 yrs ahead of someone your age, but your maturity level is 5 yrs below someone your age.
There are many TYPES of intelligence. Book smarts is a small part of it. GWB did`nt even know the name of the leaders of Pakistan & India when he was running for elections. Talk about knowlege IGNORANCE! What do you think? Has he done a decent job with that part of the world after 9/11?
There are aspects about you that are likeable & endearing. At the same time, you can be a total jerk. Your vulnerabilities make you Chowk`s biggest bakra. Indians, in particular, recognise these vulneralibities and keep provoking you until you go into a hysterical frenzy. Then you ask stupid rhetorical questions like ``why are you Indians so obssessed about Pakistan, seriously, why?!`` Listen pal, we are not obssessed about Pakistan. We get a perverse thrill of watching you twist & turn in the wind:)
Jeeze, I`ve told you this about a zillion times. You settle down for a while & then invariably get caught into a trap & hang yourself. You walk into a trap even when you know its a trap!
You want to go into Pakistani politics?! Politics in ANY country is a tricky endeavor because its filled with dirty tricks & internicine conspiracies. Pakistani politics are especially rife with those kinds of activities. A Pakistani leader, esp, has to deal with Indians. How the HELL do you think you can survive in such a profession?! If your own countrymen dont make mincemeat out of you first, I`ll bet you the Indians will. You CANT learn this from reading books or going to Rutgers.
Shammi asked how can you be helped? First of all you wont change unless & until you WANT to change. That means admitting that you have vulnerabilities that hang you. Narcicissts dissmiss the notion that they have vulnerabilities. Now swallow your enormous pride & admit that you have vulnerabilities. That is the FIRST rule of introspection. If you dont do that, you wont get to first base.
__________________________________________________
In a larger sense, what is happening between India & Pakistan is quite similar to the dynamics between you & the Indians on Chowk. Pakistan has a HUGE psychological vulnerability when it comes to India--its narcicisstic jingoism ie ``we are NOT Indian..we are BETTER than Indians..we can beat the Indians in a head to head competition..we have a moral upperhand when it comes to Indians..``
Classic example: ``nuclear politics``. It was India that started this mischief in the first place & it is Pakistan that was stuggling at the brink. India KNEW Pakistan had the bomb. India also correctly sensed that if they exploded the bomb, Pakistan would walk into a trap. The Indian economy could withstand US sanctions, Pakistan`s economy is vulnerable & dependant on foreign aid. If Pakistan had not exploded the bomb, India would have been an isolated pariah state today & the BJP & Hindutva would have been in the dustbin.
Thats where Pakistan`s narcicisstic vulnerability comes in. Pakistan would rather ``eat grass`` than allow India to ``show her up``. It was a steady downhill decline after that--kargil, coup, bankrupt economy, diplomatic isolation.
I guess Allah does care about Pakistan. It was 9/11 & Mushy pragmatism that ironically saved Pakistan. Why do you think Indians are frustrated? After Mushy`s quick Texas two step after 9/11, Indians were saying ``damn!!!``
Whether you guys admit it or not, there are many ways to skin a Pakistani cat--a military war is a moot issue now. Sabre rattling, that India has finessed is NOT a prelude to war. Its India`s way of making US twist Mushy`s arm to ban Kashmiri ``freedom-fighters``. Tell me, who has exploited whose psychological vulnerabilities-- India or Pakistan?
All you guys are debating about Jinnah/Gandhi/Ataturk. Dunno about Ataturk. But Jinnah & Gandhi are anachronisms in their own countries. Its one thing to study history. But if your head is stuck in historical issues that are anachronisms in today`s India or Pakistan, you are missing the boat.
{{And what diagnosis can a man make of a shrink who thinks he can diagnose through the internet?? Extraordinary extra sensory perception perhaps?}}
Youre right, I cant make an accurate diagnosis through the internet. In fact, shrinks dont make accurate ``diagnoses`` even in real life. Unlike other specialities, we dont have the luxury of blood tests, CT scans, X-Rays etc to make an accurate diagnosis. So we give opinions, based on certain behavior patterns we witness. Opinions, by their very nature, are subjective. Therefore shrinks disagree with each other all the time. Its not an exact science.
My opinions about you are based on the zillions of posts you have rattled out on Chowk. Also, a part of my opinion is based on the very public fight you had with kabuliwallah--someone you said is a close friend of yours.
Romair is very right when he he says that your knowlege about certain subjects is 5 yrs ahead of someone your age, but your maturity level is 5 yrs below someone your age.
There are many TYPES of intelligence. Book smarts is a small part of it. GWB did`nt even know the name of the leaders of Pakistan & India when he was running for elections. Talk about knowlege IGNORANCE! What do you think? Has he done a decent job with that part of the world after 9/11?
There are aspects about you that are likeable & endearing. At the same time, you can be a total jerk. Your vulnerabilities make you Chowk`s biggest bakra. Indians, in particular, recognise these vulneralibities and keep provoking you until you go into a hysterical frenzy. Then you ask stupid rhetorical questions like ``why are you Indians so obssessed about Pakistan, seriously, why?!`` Listen pal, we are not obssessed about Pakistan. We get a perverse thrill of watching you twist & turn in the wind:)
Jeeze, I`ve told you this about a zillion times. You settle down for a while & then invariably get caught into a trap & hang yourself. You walk into a trap even when you know its a trap!
You want to go into Pakistani politics?! Politics in ANY country is a tricky endeavor because its filled with dirty tricks & internicine conspiracies. Pakistani politics are especially rife with those kinds of activities. A Pakistani leader, esp, has to deal with Indians. How the HELL do you think you can survive in such a profession?! If your own countrymen dont make mincemeat out of you first, I`ll bet you the Indians will. You CANT learn this from reading books or going to Rutgers.
Shammi asked how can you be helped? First of all you wont change unless & until you WANT to change. That means admitting that you have vulnerabilities that hang you. Narcicissts dissmiss the notion that they have vulnerabilities. Now swallow your enormous pride & admit that you have vulnerabilities. That is the FIRST rule of introspection. If you dont do that, you wont get to first base.
__________________________________________________
In a larger sense, what is happening between India & Pakistan is quite similar to the dynamics between you & the Indians on Chowk. Pakistan has a HUGE psychological vulnerability when it comes to India--its narcicisstic jingoism ie ``we are NOT Indian..we are BETTER than Indians..we can beat the Indians in a head to head competition..we have a moral upperhand when it comes to Indians..``
Classic example: ``nuclear politics``. It was India that started this mischief in the first place & it is Pakistan that was stuggling at the brink. India KNEW Pakistan had the bomb. India also correctly sensed that if they exploded the bomb, Pakistan would walk into a trap. The Indian economy could withstand US sanctions, Pakistan`s economy is vulnerable & dependant on foreign aid. If Pakistan had not exploded the bomb, India would have been an isolated pariah state today & the BJP & Hindutva would have been in the dustbin.
Thats where Pakistan`s narcicisstic vulnerability comes in. Pakistan would rather ``eat grass`` than allow India to ``show her up``. It was a steady downhill decline after that--kargil, coup, bankrupt economy, diplomatic isolation.
I guess Allah does care about Pakistan. It was 9/11 & Mushy pragmatism that ironically saved Pakistan. Why do you think Indians are frustrated? After Mushy`s quick Texas two step after 9/11, Indians were saying ``damn!!!``
Whether you guys admit it or not, there are many ways to skin a Pakistani cat--a military war is a moot issue now. Sabre rattling, that India has finessed is NOT a prelude to war. Its India`s way of making US twist Mushy`s arm to ban Kashmiri ``freedom-fighters``. Tell me, who has exploited whose psychological vulnerabilities-- India or Pakistan?
All you guys are debating about Jinnah/Gandhi/Ataturk. Dunno about Ataturk. But Jinnah & Gandhi are anachronisms in their own countries. Its one thing to study history. But if your head is stuck in historical issues that are anachronisms in today`s India or Pakistan, you are missing the boat.
#200 Posted by hamzadafaqui on February 10, 2002 2:25:34 pm
dost-mittar---201
[BTW, were the other temples (other than Kaaba) in Mecca and Medina left intact?]
Apparently there were none.However,just at a few hours drive Petra can be still seen as if it was built yesterday.This is the grand city which was the jewel of the Nabatean people(the nation of A`aad or Thamood,mentioned in Qura`an as condemned people who astrayed),is still there as if in its pristine glory.The pyramids,sphinx and temples at Luxor are other glaring examples.
In truth they were so unimportant that they were not even a subject worth broaching for muslims.They were generally always mentioned as an admonition against vain-glory and the temporal & temporary sojourn on earth.
Demolitions of such stones(shapes & forms to others) is heavy-duty work.Even Mahmud didn`t see any purpose in persuing this line of work---until of course-``there was gold in them thar idols``.
The Talibaans really scored a first,but then in the very early part of Muslim history(not Islamic,mind you,but Muslim),within say 100 years,it were the Karamaties who carried away the Hajr e Asvad(the Black meteorite) out of sheer love,devotion,& respect[{:)] and an intense desire to reserve it for themselves[{;)].
And the who can forget what happened in the 80s.Tanks were rolling withi the inner-sanctum.And then Indiraa Gandhi gave us an encore at Amritsar.
So Dost-Mittar never fret.This in not going to end ever & it doesn`t bother me a whit.
Sometimes I wonder if it is Gods` ingenious plan to make us remember Him all the time.So He stays in the head-lines all the time.It may not occur to the athiest--but he is remembering God,even if he is rejecting him...and he never forgets to remind himself & others of this fact.
Just rambled a bit & let my fancy take a detour.Sometimes even plain water can be very intoxicating[{:)].
[BTW, were the other temples (other than Kaaba) in Mecca and Medina left intact?]
Apparently there were none.However,just at a few hours drive Petra can be still seen as if it was built yesterday.This is the grand city which was the jewel of the Nabatean people(the nation of A`aad or Thamood,mentioned in Qura`an as condemned people who astrayed),is still there as if in its pristine glory.The pyramids,sphinx and temples at Luxor are other glaring examples.
In truth they were so unimportant that they were not even a subject worth broaching for muslims.They were generally always mentioned as an admonition against vain-glory and the temporal & temporary sojourn on earth.
Demolitions of such stones(shapes & forms to others) is heavy-duty work.Even Mahmud didn`t see any purpose in persuing this line of work---until of course-``there was gold in them thar idols``.
The Talibaans really scored a first,but then in the very early part of Muslim history(not Islamic,mind you,but Muslim),within say 100 years,it were the Karamaties who carried away the Hajr e Asvad(the Black meteorite) out of sheer love,devotion,& respect[{:)] and an intense desire to reserve it for themselves[{;)].
And the who can forget what happened in the 80s.Tanks were rolling withi the inner-sanctum.And then Indiraa Gandhi gave us an encore at Amritsar.
So Dost-Mittar never fret.This in not going to end ever & it doesn`t bother me a whit.
Sometimes I wonder if it is Gods` ingenious plan to make us remember Him all the time.So He stays in the head-lines all the time.It may not occur to the athiest--but he is remembering God,even if he is rejecting him...and he never forgets to remind himself & others of this fact.
Just rambled a bit & let my fancy take a detour.Sometimes even plain water can be very intoxicating[{:)].
#199 Posted by nasah on February 10, 2002 2:55:09 am
In a recent interview with The Washington Post, Musharraf said, ``Unfortunately, an incident (referring to the kidnapping) takes place and you convert this one incident into a sort of a rule, as if all over Pakistan everyone is insecure and nobody should come... I feel sorry and I feel bad for my country even, because it does create such images, which is not the truth.``
On the other hand........
“It`s very much a possibility that it has been done by the Indians, orchestrated by the Indians. That`s what we are looking into,`` The Washington Post quoted Musharraf as saying.
Now “it’s very much a possibility” that Mr. Musharraf has developed a forked tongue that now speaks a bazaaree/bizarre language.
Mr, Musharraf says -- ``That`s what we are looking into`` -- does that mean we are not looking for Pearl anymore -- in Pakistan?
Now that is really interesting.
Even though Mr. Musharraf can`t find Pearl anywhere -- every time he speaks these days -- pearls seem to fall from his blessed mouth -everywhere!
On the other hand........
“It`s very much a possibility that it has been done by the Indians, orchestrated by the Indians. That`s what we are looking into,`` The Washington Post quoted Musharraf as saying.
Now “it’s very much a possibility” that Mr. Musharraf has developed a forked tongue that now speaks a bazaaree/bizarre language.
Mr, Musharraf says -- ``That`s what we are looking into`` -- does that mean we are not looking for Pearl anymore -- in Pakistan?
Now that is really interesting.
Even though Mr. Musharraf can`t find Pearl anywhere -- every time he speaks these days -- pearls seem to fall from his blessed mouth -everywhere!
#196 Posted by DRUMZ on February 10, 2002 2:55:09 am
Mfarooqui:
http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/Channeled-Info/Ascended-Masters/The-Way/
U may wanna check them out, esp # 10, 11, 14...
http://www.beyond-the-illusion.com/files/Channeled-Info/Ascended-Masters/The-Way/
U may wanna check them out, esp # 10, 11, 14...
#195 Posted by tvarad on February 10, 2002 2:55:09 am
RE: Reply #: 191 sigalph235
``I think a lot Indians find Jinnah a man they love to dislike because he shrewdly maneuvered Congress and the British Empire into creating and accepting a Pakistan out of thin air. Like him or not, this is a barrister at his best, hence the portrait in Lincoln`s Inn.``
Perhaps the RSS types may have such a view , but Indians like me have a problem with him because of what his actions wrought in the sub-continent. I wouldn`t even had had this problem had the Pakistani leadership concentrated on social emancipation instead of embarking on a self-destructive agenda of matching India, a nation 6 times it`s size. The results are there for everyone to see.
``I think a lot Indians find Jinnah a man they love to dislike because he shrewdly maneuvered Congress and the British Empire into creating and accepting a Pakistan out of thin air. Like him or not, this is a barrister at his best, hence the portrait in Lincoln`s Inn.``
Perhaps the RSS types may have such a view , but Indians like me have a problem with him because of what his actions wrought in the sub-continent. I wouldn`t even had had this problem had the Pakistani leadership concentrated on social emancipation instead of embarking on a self-destructive agenda of matching India, a nation 6 times it`s size. The results are there for everyone to see.
#194 Posted by Ansari on February 10, 2002 2:55:09 am
Corners on the Curving Sky
Our earth is round, and, among other things
That means that you and I can hold
completely different
Points of view and both be right.
The difference of our positions will show
Stars in your window I cannot even imagine.
Your sky may burn with light,
While mine, at the same moment,
Spreads beautiful to darkness.
Still, we must choose how we separately corner
The circling universe of our experience.
Once chosen, our cornering will determine
The message of any star and darkness we
encounter.
- Gwendolyn Brooks
Our earth is round, and, among other things
That means that you and I can hold
completely different
Points of view and both be right.
The difference of our positions will show
Stars in your window I cannot even imagine.
Your sky may burn with light,
While mine, at the same moment,
Spreads beautiful to darkness.
Still, we must choose how we separately corner
The circling universe of our experience.
Once chosen, our cornering will determine
The message of any star and darkness we
encounter.
- Gwendolyn Brooks
#193 Posted by nasah on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
The ``axis of evil`` was one of the stupidest phrases that the juvenile george blurted out in his State of the Union address -- totally unnecessary -- utterly ignorant -- shamelessly arrogant.
After his stupendous success of Afghan policy (beginner`s luck) the boy wonder is getting a little too cocky for his comprehension and know-how of foreign affairs -– is bent upon going over the precipice -- and taking the country with him.
Inviting that Israeli war criminal Nazi Pariah – Sharon the Moron -- three times in his Durbar -- while putting Arafat in dungeon -- shows how shallow his mediocre advisors are in geopolitical knowledge of the Middle East.
His stupid (Full of Enron Vices) Vice president Cheney gave the Israeli baby killers -- the go ahead to hang Arafat as far he is concerned!
What a senile Vice President we have ended up with – and he is supposed to be our ``experienced`` and ``responsible`` foreign policy Nanny -- to watch over our Baby George
America under George Bush -- looks like -- is headed for disaster -- can`t handle the Afghan victory gracefully -- is about to go berserk on the world stage.
Already our trillion dollar surplus is gone. The question is how the hell we are going to pay for our Don Quixote -- fighting the windmills all over the world.
After his stupendous success of Afghan policy (beginner`s luck) the boy wonder is getting a little too cocky for his comprehension and know-how of foreign affairs -– is bent upon going over the precipice -- and taking the country with him.
Inviting that Israeli war criminal Nazi Pariah – Sharon the Moron -- three times in his Durbar -- while putting Arafat in dungeon -- shows how shallow his mediocre advisors are in geopolitical knowledge of the Middle East.
His stupid (Full of Enron Vices) Vice president Cheney gave the Israeli baby killers -- the go ahead to hang Arafat as far he is concerned!
What a senile Vice President we have ended up with – and he is supposed to be our ``experienced`` and ``responsible`` foreign policy Nanny -- to watch over our Baby George
America under George Bush -- looks like -- is headed for disaster -- can`t handle the Afghan victory gracefully -- is about to go berserk on the world stage.
Already our trillion dollar surplus is gone. The question is how the hell we are going to pay for our Don Quixote -- fighting the windmills all over the world.
#192 Posted by Romair on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
shankar #175: Your analysis is quite interesting. I have always been interested in psychiatry and psychology. Psy Ops is actually a branch of many militaries. I used to have a weekly discussion with a Psychology professor, when I was in college.
Ylh is a very knowledgeable person for his age; for any age, for that matter. His knowledge level is perhaps ten years beyond his age. At the same time, his presentation and maturity and patience is five years below most people his age. That is my analysis. Not that it matters much. People have a right to personally be as they like. What is of concern is that if people get into positions of power, they need to open their minds to other views completely, and have the ability to listen to opposing views.
Since we are on the subject. I would be interested in an expert psychiatric analysis of me (seriously). I am assuming, under normal circumstances, this would cost me a couple of hundred dollars, but maybe I can get it for free here, from you.
Ylh is a very knowledgeable person for his age; for any age, for that matter. His knowledge level is perhaps ten years beyond his age. At the same time, his presentation and maturity and patience is five years below most people his age. That is my analysis. Not that it matters much. People have a right to personally be as they like. What is of concern is that if people get into positions of power, they need to open their minds to other views completely, and have the ability to listen to opposing views.
Since we are on the subject. I would be interested in an expert psychiatric analysis of me (seriously). I am assuming, under normal circumstances, this would cost me a couple of hundred dollars, but maybe I can get it for free here, from you.
#191 Posted by ylh on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
Rsaxena,
Guess who is on which site. And if you had seen closely, Indians love arguing with me, I don`t like arguing with them. My statements and proclamations are all for PAKISTANIS.
Shankar,
And what diagnosis can a man make of a shrink who thinks he can diagnose through the internet?? Extraordinary extra sensory perception perhaps?
Romair,
Read about Kemal Ataturk sometime and read the works of Allama Iqbal and the life of Jinnah especially that 1932 turning point when Jinnah happened to walk one day in Hampstead England stopping to buy a book at a local bookstore. Then put everything in perspective, the rise of Turk Nationalism, famous Indian Muslim Historian/jurist/judge Syed Ameer Ali`s (the original idealogue of Two Nation theory) interaction with the Young Turks, Rise of Kemal, fall of the Khilafat the failure of the Khilafat movement, the rise of a political and cultural Muslim Nationalism, and the antecedents and the precedents of the Pakistan National Movement, and you will understand how big of a contribution Kemal Ataturk and Turkey as an inspiration made to the creation of Pakistan.
I have no objection to you not knowing about the man but you keep denigrating him much in the same fashion as Indians throw insults at our Quaid e Azam without knowing much. Furthermore you insult Turkey which by far is the most advanced Muslim country wrt economy (remember they had no oil), human rights and education. And you call them an `Economic` basketcase based on their recent reverses in Economics... forgetting the bigger picture.
Sincerely
Yasser Latif Hamdani
#190 Posted by sigalph235 on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
re romair and turkey
Points well made. Turkey often goes overboard with enforcement of secularism. Nonetheless, the Turkish officer corps and elite know full well that what they are fighting in the shadows is a deadly menace which will waste no time in destroying the progress of the last 80 years. Hence, they pounce on the slightest symbolism of religious nazism. Algeria took that cue as well. History seems to have shown well that if you give Islamists the slightest lattitude, they will use every mean to upturn the whole system. These are dedicated, ruthless, violent people who kill at will for getting into Heaven. The only language they understand is that of violence. In dealing with them neither Algeria nor Turkey are left with little choice. You simply cannot argue with an Islamist on the fine points of individual liberties and democracy.
Points well made. Turkey often goes overboard with enforcement of secularism. Nonetheless, the Turkish officer corps and elite know full well that what they are fighting in the shadows is a deadly menace which will waste no time in destroying the progress of the last 80 years. Hence, they pounce on the slightest symbolism of religious nazism. Algeria took that cue as well. History seems to have shown well that if you give Islamists the slightest lattitude, they will use every mean to upturn the whole system. These are dedicated, ruthless, violent people who kill at will for getting into Heaven. The only language they understand is that of violence. In dealing with them neither Algeria nor Turkey are left with little choice. You simply cannot argue with an Islamist on the fine points of individual liberties and democracy.
#189 Posted by sigalph235 on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
ha ha ha
I think a lot Indians find Jinnah a man they love to dislike because he shrewdly maneuvered Congress and the British Empire into creating and accepting a Pakistan out of thin air. Like him or not, this is a barrister at his best, hence the portrait in Lincoln`s Inn.
As for YLH, young, impetuous, and hypersensitive as he is, his defense of the Quaid-e-Azam is always thickly laced by tons and tons of bibliographic references.
I think a lot Indians find Jinnah a man they love to dislike because he shrewdly maneuvered Congress and the British Empire into creating and accepting a Pakistan out of thin air. Like him or not, this is a barrister at his best, hence the portrait in Lincoln`s Inn.
As for YLH, young, impetuous, and hypersensitive as he is, his defense of the Quaid-e-Azam is always thickly laced by tons and tons of bibliographic references.
#188 Posted by arjun_m on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
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#187 Posted by shammi on February 9, 2002 4:18:22 pm
Re: Romair
``...Somewhere along the lines, he (Jinnah) realized that Muslims may not get a fair deal in India...The original supporters of Pakistan were from Bengal and UP...``
There are two observations that I would like to make based upon the above statements:
1) this has to be a case in which the perceived victimization and persecution occurred BEFORE the fact -- sort of presuming someone guilty before gathering any evidence, and taking a political position based upon speculation, and acting upon it. Today, this often results in Pakistani idealogues finding selective evidence in present-day India to justify Jinnah`s decision or to force-fit evidence to prove his hypothesis (e.g. Indian secularism is a whitewash, Muslims are suffering in India, look -- we told you so, etc.). Ironically, it is the minorities in Pakistan (a country established for the advancement of minority rights) that have suffered more than the minorities in India, and in an undivided India the minorities would have had even more political clout. But, who asks such questions, right? I am not saying that Muslim concerns were not legitimate -- all I am saying is that there was no reasonable dialog on the possible solution -- we were not even free of foreign domination and had no time to work out Indian solutions to Indian problems.
2) The solution (demand for Pakistan) addressed the problems of a minority of present-day Pakistanis (UP/Bihari/Bengali muslims, since they were from provinces where Muslims were in a minority -- Punjab, Sind, NWFP did not `need` Pakistan as much as they did). So, this was a case of a solution looking for a problem -- and I wonder if 54 years of Indo-Pak hostility, millions dead and displaced, militarization, nuclear sabre rattling, Kashmir, Bangladesh are factored in the cost/benefit analysis by the proponents of Partition -- has Pakistan addressed the `concerns` of the vast population of India`s muslims?. If we can`t assess the complet impact of the Partition, then the market certainly does -- look at the human development index or GDP/capita of the subcontinent, and compare it with where it was in `47 w.r.t to Singapore, Korea, Japan, etc. and where it is today. There is a day of reckoning, and a judgment which is beyond our capabilities to add or detract. The market is usually right, because its results are irrefutable, and its movement is based upon billions of interactions that are beyond the ability of any individual to predict. So, is the case with politics -- at no point was the debate over Partition conducted by Indians (and the forfathers of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis) in an elected assembly (the `stock market` of public sentiments) which was answerable to the people of the subcontinent -- the referees and the ultimate arbiters were the English, and the decision-makers were individuals, not institutions. The English had more than two centuries of experience in the subcontinent -- and they knew that to retain influence, they had to maintain a balance of power -- the same old `divide and rule` policy. And in case you didn`t notice, the Anglo-Saxons are back in the subcontinent -- only this time they have not come in through Ft. George in Calcutta -- rather from the Khyber. And countless Indians and Pakistanis will remain too stupid and fixated upon each other to see the forest for the trees.
Peace.
``...Somewhere along the lines, he (Jinnah) realized that Muslims may not get a fair deal in India...The original supporters of Pakistan were from Bengal and UP...``
There are two observations that I would like to make based upon the above statements:
1) this has to be a case in which the perceived victimization and persecution occurred BEFORE the fact -- sort of presuming someone guilty before gathering any evidence, and taking a political position based upon speculation, and acting upon it. Today, this often results in Pakistani idealogues finding selective evidence in present-day India to justify Jinnah`s decision or to force-fit evidence to prove his hypothesis (e.g. Indian secularism is a whitewash, Muslims are suffering in India, look -- we told you so, etc.). Ironically, it is the minorities in Pakistan (a country established for the advancement of minority rights) that have suffered more than the minorities in India, and in an undivided India the minorities would have had even more political clout. But, who asks such questions, right? I am not saying that Muslim concerns were not legitimate -- all I am saying is that there was no reasonable dialog on the possible solution -- we were not even free of foreign domination and had no time to work out Indian solutions to Indian problems.
2) The solution (demand for Pakistan) addressed the problems of a minority of present-day Pakistanis (UP/Bihari/Bengali muslims, since they were from provinces where Muslims were in a minority -- Punjab, Sind, NWFP did not `need` Pakistan as much as they did). So, this was a case of a solution looking for a problem -- and I wonder if 54 years of Indo-Pak hostility, millions dead and displaced, militarization, nuclear sabre rattling, Kashmir, Bangladesh are factored in the cost/benefit analysis by the proponents of Partition -- has Pakistan addressed the `concerns` of the vast population of India`s muslims?. If we can`t assess the complet impact of the Partition, then the market certainly does -- look at the human development index or GDP/capita of the subcontinent, and compare it with where it was in `47 w.r.t to Singapore, Korea, Japan, etc. and where it is today. There is a day of reckoning, and a judgment which is beyond our capabilities to add or detract. The market is usually right, because its results are irrefutable, and its movement is based upon billions of interactions that are beyond the ability of any individual to predict. So, is the case with politics -- at no point was the debate over Partition conducted by Indians (and the forfathers of Pakistanis/Bangladeshis) in an elected assembly (the `stock market` of public sentiments) which was answerable to the people of the subcontinent -- the referees and the ultimate arbiters were the English, and the decision-makers were individuals, not institutions. The English had more than two centuries of experience in the subcontinent -- and they knew that to retain influence, they had to maintain a balance of power -- the same old `divide and rule` policy. And in case you didn`t notice, the Anglo-Saxons are back in the subcontinent -- only this time they have not come in through Ft. George in Calcutta -- rather from the Khyber. And countless Indians and Pakistanis will remain too stupid and fixated upon each other to see the forest for the trees.
Peace.
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