The Place of Debate
Chowk Staff February 4, 2002
#365 Posted by Pankaj on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Dost-Mittar
``I think you have to make a distinction between those Muslims who are able to separate their religion from their day to day lives and those who look to the Quran or Hadis or the Mullahs for their daily activities.
``
You are very correct. It is not Muslim Vs non-Muslim that matters, but those people who strived for better education, placed greater emphasis on Scince and Maths(also business), fare better than ``religious`` types. Unfortunately the proportion of people who are too religion-minded, thinking that merely faith in God will take care of everything is higher among Muslims as compared to other religions. When such Muslims are unsuccessful in real life , they think it is because they were not ``perfect`` Muslims and they respond by becomming ``truer`` Muslims, whatever their definition be. There is a wide chasm between what Muslims think of themselves and what rest of the world thinks about them. By thinking themselves as ``true believers`` in the only ``true religion`` of the world, they place themselves at a higher pedestal than the rest of the people who in their eyes are heathens. However the condition of Muslims even in the Muslim majority lands is not hidden from anybody. This cognitive dissonance gives rise to frustation and unrest Muslim societies everywhere are witnessing. Muslims need a leader who can make them realize that their salvation doesn`t lie in becomming ``true Muslims`` in the sense of replicating 7th century administration, but in learning modern science and mathematics. What Albiruni said about the decaying Indian civilization at the end of 10th century also applies on Muslims today.
``... folly is an illness for which there is no medicine, and Hindus believe that there is no country as theirs, no nation like theirs, no king like thiers, no religion like theirs, no science like theirs. They are haughty, foolishly vail, and self-conceited, and stolid...... If they travelled and mixed with other nations they would soon change their minds, for their ancestors were not as narrow-minded as the present generation is ....``
``I think you have to make a distinction between those Muslims who are able to separate their religion from their day to day lives and those who look to the Quran or Hadis or the Mullahs for their daily activities.
``
You are very correct. It is not Muslim Vs non-Muslim that matters, but those people who strived for better education, placed greater emphasis on Scince and Maths(also business), fare better than ``religious`` types. Unfortunately the proportion of people who are too religion-minded, thinking that merely faith in God will take care of everything is higher among Muslims as compared to other religions. When such Muslims are unsuccessful in real life , they think it is because they were not ``perfect`` Muslims and they respond by becomming ``truer`` Muslims, whatever their definition be. There is a wide chasm between what Muslims think of themselves and what rest of the world thinks about them. By thinking themselves as ``true believers`` in the only ``true religion`` of the world, they place themselves at a higher pedestal than the rest of the people who in their eyes are heathens. However the condition of Muslims even in the Muslim majority lands is not hidden from anybody. This cognitive dissonance gives rise to frustation and unrest Muslim societies everywhere are witnessing. Muslims need a leader who can make them realize that their salvation doesn`t lie in becomming ``true Muslims`` in the sense of replicating 7th century administration, but in learning modern science and mathematics. What Albiruni said about the decaying Indian civilization at the end of 10th century also applies on Muslims today.
``... folly is an illness for which there is no medicine, and Hindus believe that there is no country as theirs, no nation like theirs, no king like thiers, no religion like theirs, no science like theirs. They are haughty, foolishly vail, and self-conceited, and stolid...... If they travelled and mixed with other nations they would soon change their minds, for their ancestors were not as narrow-minded as the present generation is ....``
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#361 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 350
[Aiyoh Da!]
``Aiyoh!`` would be sufficient. I can`t think of the exact equivalent of ``da`` but let me simply say it is a term of familiarity you attempt only face to face and that too with close friends! Sort of like using ``thu`` instead of ``aap``. No offence taken though!
[The choice usually wasn’t between being a clerk and a carpenter – it was between being an unskilled labourer and a carpenter. Maybe not perfect, but certainly one step closer to economically enabling a family’s children to study and better themselves. (Not to mention health and nutrition.)]
But is that what you see as the options? And when does an apprenticeship end and one turns into a full-time carpenter, mason, master weaver or metalworker? Is the apprenticeship voluntary on the part of the children or do they have to take it up to help Dad along to earn more money?
I repeat: Have these guys changed profession since the time of Aurangzeb?
[Bring on the rev dude. You’re talking about distribution systems and share of profits…]
You can talk about the distribution system only in the case of the Muslim weaver selling his Benares saris through a bania. But you can be pretty sure that, with the shortage of copper and tin, Indians will be forced to rely on cheap mass-produced aluminum utensils and your brassworkers will have to find another profession soon. Ah, I miss the silver plate I used to eat off of when I was young. It is all stainless steel now when I visit home in India!
[I’ll admit your point about appreciation of craftsmanship when Indian women stop getting married in Banares/Kanjivaram saris and switch to something churned out by textile mills in Ahmedabad.]
If Indians use handwoven clothes for daily wear, you can support millions of weavers. How many weavers are employed in making Benares/Conjeevaram/Arni/Mysore silk sarees? The Ahmedabad textile mills HAVE taken over, even if we don`t want to accept it, just like the mills in Lancashire did in the 1800s.
[Agreed re: Army. (but swami how to square with your comment above about trades being a dead end]
Difference is electronics repair (TV, radios, etc.) pays more. India hasn`t gotten to the stage of throwaway TVs as the US and Japan have. People will pay to repair high-value items such as TVs, VCRs, etc.
Also, it is nice to be sitting in a building repairing things as opposed to carrying bricks in the hot sun or even crawling under cars to replace the water pump or the timing belt. Maybe even the perspective changes once you are not breaking your back under the hot sun and you start wanting your kids not to carry bricks and mortar.
[aiyaiyappoh!)]
I can`t parse THAT!
[Aiyoh Da!]
``Aiyoh!`` would be sufficient. I can`t think of the exact equivalent of ``da`` but let me simply say it is a term of familiarity you attempt only face to face and that too with close friends! Sort of like using ``thu`` instead of ``aap``. No offence taken though!
[The choice usually wasn’t between being a clerk and a carpenter – it was between being an unskilled labourer and a carpenter. Maybe not perfect, but certainly one step closer to economically enabling a family’s children to study and better themselves. (Not to mention health and nutrition.)]
But is that what you see as the options? And when does an apprenticeship end and one turns into a full-time carpenter, mason, master weaver or metalworker? Is the apprenticeship voluntary on the part of the children or do they have to take it up to help Dad along to earn more money?
I repeat: Have these guys changed profession since the time of Aurangzeb?
[Bring on the rev dude. You’re talking about distribution systems and share of profits…]
You can talk about the distribution system only in the case of the Muslim weaver selling his Benares saris through a bania. But you can be pretty sure that, with the shortage of copper and tin, Indians will be forced to rely on cheap mass-produced aluminum utensils and your brassworkers will have to find another profession soon. Ah, I miss the silver plate I used to eat off of when I was young. It is all stainless steel now when I visit home in India!
[I’ll admit your point about appreciation of craftsmanship when Indian women stop getting married in Banares/Kanjivaram saris and switch to something churned out by textile mills in Ahmedabad.]
If Indians use handwoven clothes for daily wear, you can support millions of weavers. How many weavers are employed in making Benares/Conjeevaram/Arni/Mysore silk sarees? The Ahmedabad textile mills HAVE taken over, even if we don`t want to accept it, just like the mills in Lancashire did in the 1800s.
[Agreed re: Army. (but swami how to square with your comment above about trades being a dead end]
Difference is electronics repair (TV, radios, etc.) pays more. India hasn`t gotten to the stage of throwaway TVs as the US and Japan have. People will pay to repair high-value items such as TVs, VCRs, etc.
Also, it is nice to be sitting in a building repairing things as opposed to carrying bricks in the hot sun or even crawling under cars to replace the water pump or the timing belt. Maybe even the perspective changes once you are not breaking your back under the hot sun and you start wanting your kids not to carry bricks and mortar.
[aiyaiyappoh!)]
I can`t parse THAT!
#359 Posted by shammi on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
YLH #338
``...Yet the shameless creed (Indians) that you and your countrymen have learnt, you will continue to whitewash your crimes against humanity...``
Slobodan Milosevic in the NY Times today:
Slobodan Milosevic returned to The Hague today, accusing his enemies of deliberately causing the 1999 exodus of Albanians from Kosovo and then lying about it to the world. He said NATO pilots had been guilty of ``bestiality``...
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-milosevic-trial.html
QED, ladies and gentlemen
``...Yet the shameless creed (Indians) that you and your countrymen have learnt, you will continue to whitewash your crimes against humanity...``
Slobodan Milosevic in the NY Times today:
Slobodan Milosevic returned to The Hague today, accusing his enemies of deliberately causing the 1999 exodus of Albanians from Kosovo and then lying about it to the world. He said NATO pilots had been guilty of ``bestiality``...
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/international/international-milosevic-trial.html
QED, ladies and gentlemen
#358 Posted by harimau on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Ref dost-mittar #: 332
[The historical advantage I am referring to is the Muslims in India withdrawing into a shell following the loss of the Mughal empire and the Hindus embracing Western education in a big way (even if it meant taking ganga-jal with them on their voyage to London!).]
Exactly how many Hindus went to England for their studies? Did they go in the millions? In the hundreds of thousands? In the tens of thousands? In the thousands? In the hundreds? I bet it was not even the last.
Let us see what the situation was like before the British arrived. Here were the Brahmin kids showing up early in the morning at the river banks for their daily bath. They gathered under a tree and were taught to memorize the Vedas and the Upanishads and any other shastras the village Pandit could teach them. Since all of this was a strictly oral tradition, even the alphabet was not taught here.
A few of these kids, not all, probably learnt the three R`s under another shade tree in the village. These guys ended up being the ones who kept records because they could read and write.
The rest of the Hindus went about being shopkeepers, barbers, blacksmiths, goldsmiths, sh!tcarriers, or whatever profession they were born into.
The Muslim kids probably went to their madrassahs in the morning to learn the Koran by rote. Since the Muslims don`t have, ahem cough cough, castes one would think that ALL Muslim kids went to the madrassahs but in reality only a handful stayed the entire course, most of the rest being satisfied with learning the absolute minimum requirements for the daily prayers and then going back home to weave carpets. But enough Muslim kids stayed on to learn to read and write in Urdu/Persian so that they could get jobs in the local government which were mostly run by sultans and nawabs.
So tell me, what specific advantages did the Hindus have over the Muslims?
When the British opened schools on the Western style, the Brahmin kids were probably the first one sent off to those schools by their parents. After all, several Brahmins were engaged as translators by the British and they realized the advantage of dealing with a slightly less arbitrary employer like an Englishman as opposed to the capricious nawabs and their underlings. The richer Vaishyas also sent their kids off to schools . The kshatriyas presumably were still learning how to fight and the shudras and the scheduled castes were firmly kept in their place by the oppressive Brahmins.
What did this education achieve? For the first hundred years, it turned out the vast number of native clerks that the Englishmen needed to run the country. While lots of students went through primary and secondary education, the number going to colleges even within India was very small. How many Indians wrote the ICS examinations and were accepted as District Commissioners and Magistrates before 1900? How many Indian lawyers went to Lincoln`s Inn before 1900? How many Indians went to Sandhurst before 1900? So why are you all making the claim that Hindus had an unfair advantage over Muslims even though it might be because of Muslim withdrawal from society? The truth is that with the British in power, there was no arbitrary exercise of power when the choise was between Hindus and Muslims as used to be the case under Muslim rule and the Muslims found themselves at the losing end when they did not understand or follow the process as instituted by the British. Rather than trying to figure out how to survive in such a society, the Muslims just withdrew in to their palaces and ghettoes depending on whether they were nawabs or laborers.
[I may not be able to persuade you but I have so far not seen a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim (I am not sure about SameerJB but then does he consider himself Muslim?:-)) who thinks creation of Pakistan was a mistake. And it is THEIR thinking that matters.]
Turning the tables on you, why should the opinions of uneducated masses be taken into account? They don`t know what is good for them. As for the educated Pakistanis, they are looking at cushy foreign postings in the diplomatic corps so obviously they want a country. Sheesh, I would love to be one of the few educated and wealthy Bhutanese today.
[``I think that before one jumps to quotas, giving preferential treatment in primary and secondary education should be attempted. A good education can open many doors.``
That`s exactly what I meant by affirmative action.]
I think in most states in India elementary education and even secondary education is free. They have to drag their a$$es over to class if they want an education.
[The historical advantage I am referring to is the Muslims in India withdrawing into a shell following the loss of the Mughal empire and the Hindus embracing Western education in a big way (even if it meant taking ganga-jal with them on their voyage to London!).]
Exactly how many Hindus went to England for their studies? Did they go in the millions? In the hundreds of thousands? In the tens of thousands? In the thousands? In the hundreds? I bet it was not even the last.
Let us see what the situation was like before the British arrived. Here were the Brahmin kids showing up early in the morning at the river banks for their daily bath. They gathered under a tree and were taught to memorize the Vedas and the Upanishads and any other shastras the village Pandit could teach them. Since all of this was a strictly oral tradition, even the alphabet was not taught here.
A few of these kids, not all, probably learnt the three R`s under another shade tree in the village. These guys ended up being the ones who kept records because they could read and write.
The rest of the Hindus went about being shopkeepers, barbers, blacksmiths, goldsmiths, sh!tcarriers, or whatever profession they were born into.
The Muslim kids probably went to their madrassahs in the morning to learn the Koran by rote. Since the Muslims don`t have, ahem cough cough, castes one would think that ALL Muslim kids went to the madrassahs but in reality only a handful stayed the entire course, most of the rest being satisfied with learning the absolute minimum requirements for the daily prayers and then going back home to weave carpets. But enough Muslim kids stayed on to learn to read and write in Urdu/Persian so that they could get jobs in the local government which were mostly run by sultans and nawabs.
So tell me, what specific advantages did the Hindus have over the Muslims?
When the British opened schools on the Western style, the Brahmin kids were probably the first one sent off to those schools by their parents. After all, several Brahmins were engaged as translators by the British and they realized the advantage of dealing with a slightly less arbitrary employer like an Englishman as opposed to the capricious nawabs and their underlings. The richer Vaishyas also sent their kids off to schools . The kshatriyas presumably were still learning how to fight and the shudras and the scheduled castes were firmly kept in their place by the oppressive Brahmins.
What did this education achieve? For the first hundred years, it turned out the vast number of native clerks that the Englishmen needed to run the country. While lots of students went through primary and secondary education, the number going to colleges even within India was very small. How many Indians wrote the ICS examinations and were accepted as District Commissioners and Magistrates before 1900? How many Indian lawyers went to Lincoln`s Inn before 1900? How many Indians went to Sandhurst before 1900? So why are you all making the claim that Hindus had an unfair advantage over Muslims even though it might be because of Muslim withdrawal from society? The truth is that with the British in power, there was no arbitrary exercise of power when the choise was between Hindus and Muslims as used to be the case under Muslim rule and the Muslims found themselves at the losing end when they did not understand or follow the process as instituted by the British. Rather than trying to figure out how to survive in such a society, the Muslims just withdrew in to their palaces and ghettoes depending on whether they were nawabs or laborers.
[I may not be able to persuade you but I have so far not seen a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim (I am not sure about SameerJB but then does he consider himself Muslim?:-)) who thinks creation of Pakistan was a mistake. And it is THEIR thinking that matters.]
Turning the tables on you, why should the opinions of uneducated masses be taken into account? They don`t know what is good for them. As for the educated Pakistanis, they are looking at cushy foreign postings in the diplomatic corps so obviously they want a country. Sheesh, I would love to be one of the few educated and wealthy Bhutanese today.
[``I think that before one jumps to quotas, giving preferential treatment in primary and secondary education should be attempted. A good education can open many doors.``
That`s exactly what I meant by affirmative action.]
I think in most states in India elementary education and even secondary education is free. They have to drag their a$$es over to class if they want an education.
#356 Posted by shammi on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Re: Zafar
``...Probably made by him and he got a cut of the profits. Sound probable to you?...``
Wouldn`t surprise me in the least, now that you mention it! Sort of like my vegetarian, teetotalling Hindu friends who let their temptations run wild once beyond the earshot of their families.
``...Probably made by him and he got a cut of the profits. Sound probable to you?...``
Wouldn`t surprise me in the least, now that you mention it! Sort of like my vegetarian, teetotalling Hindu friends who let their temptations run wild once beyond the earshot of their families.
#355 Posted by shammi on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Re: Dost-Mittar
``...The test is not whether Pakistan or Bangladesh has developed faster than India, but whether Muslims there are doing better than they would have without the creation of Pakistan...``
Alas, there is no way to test this. The only close surrogate will be if the Muslims in India do `better` than the Muslims in Pakistan/Bangladesh. You also mention that there is a lack of Pakistani/Bangladeshi spokesmen who do not consider Partition to be a `mistake`. Could it be that such dissent is stifled and sent packing into exile, if they do not toe the official line? Allow me to introduce to you Altaf Hussain (of MQM) and the Bangladeshi forgetting-her-name poetess (now in exile in Calcutta). Have you also heard of the Sindhi idealogue who was jailed for 30+ years for his views on TNT?
As regards the MQM, character assasination is the key to discrediting Hussain, but here is a speech he gave to ZeeTV:
``Complete video interview of Mr. Altaf Hussain, telecast in Encounter Programme on Zee TV``
http://www.mqm.org/mqmvideo.htm
``...The test is not whether Pakistan or Bangladesh has developed faster than India, but whether Muslims there are doing better than they would have without the creation of Pakistan...``
Alas, there is no way to test this. The only close surrogate will be if the Muslims in India do `better` than the Muslims in Pakistan/Bangladesh. You also mention that there is a lack of Pakistani/Bangladeshi spokesmen who do not consider Partition to be a `mistake`. Could it be that such dissent is stifled and sent packing into exile, if they do not toe the official line? Allow me to introduce to you Altaf Hussain (of MQM) and the Bangladeshi forgetting-her-name poetess (now in exile in Calcutta). Have you also heard of the Sindhi idealogue who was jailed for 30+ years for his views on TNT?
As regards the MQM, character assasination is the key to discrediting Hussain, but here is a speech he gave to ZeeTV:
``Complete video interview of Mr. Altaf Hussain, telecast in Encounter Programme on Zee TV``
http://www.mqm.org/mqmvideo.htm
#354 Posted by shammi on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Re: Harimau
While I agree with your defence of private education in India, I found it hard to swallow statements such as:
``...The WORST thing that has happened to Muslims is learning a trade...``
Unles I have totally misunderstood your intent, that statement reeks of prejudice and condescension. Have you noticed how the Hindu society is organized COMPLETELY on the basis of profession? Need I go into the details?
While I agree with your defence of private education in India, I found it hard to swallow statements such as:
``...The WORST thing that has happened to Muslims is learning a trade...``
Unles I have totally misunderstood your intent, that statement reeks of prejudice and condescension. Have you noticed how the Hindu society is organized COMPLETELY on the basis of profession? Need I go into the details?
#353 Posted by shankar on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
ylh,
{{If no one takes me seriously why are 90% of the responses addressed to me, and why are shrinks from your country making psycho analytical profiles of me?}}
Because some shrink thought maybe, just maybe, you`d be a little introspective & stop making an ass of yourself & show some maturity. Only then would people take you seriously.
Remember, you went ballistic not with just Indians (on this thread) but with Pakistanis who did`nt share identical opinions of Jinnah as you. Ofcourse, anyone who doesnt agree with you is then labelled an IDIOT--in bold letters, no less.
Shammi, you were wondering if ylh could change. Let me tell you, I`ve known this butthead ever since he made his grand appearance on Chowk. This guy will NEVER change. He thinks he is the self appointed defender of Pakistan on Chowk. He actually BELIEVES he`s taken seriously.
Sigh..I guess he enjoys playing the role of a bakra. Heheh..more power to him.
Yo ylh...like I`ve said before...stand in front of a mirror...squeeze your neck TIGHT with your hands...& then sing the Pakistani national anthem...you`ll need that practice when your countrymen dangle you at the end of a rope...maybe Pakistanis will be nice & let Indians do that job for them. Heck..we banias are just rubbing our hands with excited anticipation at that prospect..
{{If no one takes me seriously why are 90% of the responses addressed to me, and why are shrinks from your country making psycho analytical profiles of me?}}
Because some shrink thought maybe, just maybe, you`d be a little introspective & stop making an ass of yourself & show some maturity. Only then would people take you seriously.
Remember, you went ballistic not with just Indians (on this thread) but with Pakistanis who did`nt share identical opinions of Jinnah as you. Ofcourse, anyone who doesnt agree with you is then labelled an IDIOT--in bold letters, no less.
Shammi, you were wondering if ylh could change. Let me tell you, I`ve known this butthead ever since he made his grand appearance on Chowk. This guy will NEVER change. He thinks he is the self appointed defender of Pakistan on Chowk. He actually BELIEVES he`s taken seriously.
Sigh..I guess he enjoys playing the role of a bakra. Heheh..more power to him.
Yo ylh...like I`ve said before...stand in front of a mirror...squeeze your neck TIGHT with your hands...& then sing the Pakistani national anthem...you`ll need that practice when your countrymen dangle you at the end of a rope...maybe Pakistanis will be nice & let Indians do that job for them. Heck..we banias are just rubbing our hands with excited anticipation at that prospect..
#352 Posted by veeresh on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
Dear Yasser . . . everybody at chowk, I think, got the drift of sarcasm and mild humour in context with my multi posts on saffron ties worn by George-ji . . . except you.
To be a great leader you will have to evolve a sense of humour. Unless, of course, your idol is, say, someone like the late dour Jinnah ji?
Alack and yorrick . . . now be a good boy, Yasser, and tuck your tie in before getting after the porridge, your slip is showing.
And once and for all, please, Yasser, do not just assume that chowk is a ``Pakistani`` site, ok? The Internet is all about borderless dialogue and the sooner you twig about that, the better.
Warm regards,
Veeresh
(ps: Zafar, why do you think everybody wants to go to Canada, isn`t Australia better?)
#351 Posted by rsaxena on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
re: dost-mittar
``I may not be able to persuade you but I have so far not seen a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim (I am not sure about SameerJB but then does he consider himself Muslim?:-)) who thinks creation of Pakistan was a mistake. And it is THEIR thinking that matters.``
...but their thinking should be confined to their countries, not into India`s issues in Kashmir...
...most indians of the current generation don`t give a $hit about the creation of pakistan or bangladesh...we look at what is happening in pakistan and say: `good riddance, imagine having 150 million people allergic to democracy and modernization in our country, which already has enought to deal with`
``I may not be able to persuade you but I have so far not seen a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim (I am not sure about SameerJB but then does he consider himself Muslim?:-)) who thinks creation of Pakistan was a mistake. And it is THEIR thinking that matters.``
...but their thinking should be confined to their countries, not into India`s issues in Kashmir...
...most indians of the current generation don`t give a $hit about the creation of pakistan or bangladesh...we look at what is happening in pakistan and say: `good riddance, imagine having 150 million people allergic to democracy and modernization in our country, which already has enought to deal with`
#350 Posted by rsaxena on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
re: Zafar
{{ If we have done so well, given the circumstances, why should we be afraid of it being discussed and analysed in an open forum? }}
we are not afraid of doing that ... i just don`t attach much value to comments on this from two-cent pakistanis hailing from a feudalistic, military dictator-ruled, non-secular Islamic country on the verge of bankruptcy ...
{{ If we have done so well, given the circumstances, why should we be afraid of it being discussed and analysed in an open forum? }}
we are not afraid of doing that ... i just don`t attach much value to comments on this from two-cent pakistanis hailing from a feudalistic, military dictator-ruled, non-secular Islamic country on the verge of bankruptcy ...
#349 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply Tvarad # 331
“If the voices against discrimination in India were not heard it is one thing, but the Indian Govt. has worked overtime to bring the Dalits (the topic they wanted included) into the maintstream with job reservations, political emporwerment and educational quotas. If they haven`t been able to do so adequately it is because of the enormity of the task and not systematic neglect.”
Our performance varies very widely from State to State on this one. If there was the smallest chance that international discussion of this could motivate the Central Govt to lean on the laggards in this respect, I think it would be worth it. If we have done so well, given the circumstances, why should we be afraid of it being discussed and analysed in an open forum? Personally I think that a lot has been done, but we still have a long way to go – and that short term politics keeps the laggards from facing any kind of institutional consequences for their failure.
“If the voices against discrimination in India were not heard it is one thing, but the Indian Govt. has worked overtime to bring the Dalits (the topic they wanted included) into the maintstream with job reservations, political emporwerment and educational quotas. If they haven`t been able to do so adequately it is because of the enormity of the task and not systematic neglect.”
Our performance varies very widely from State to State on this one. If there was the smallest chance that international discussion of this could motivate the Central Govt to lean on the laggards in this respect, I think it would be worth it. If we have done so well, given the circumstances, why should we be afraid of it being discussed and analysed in an open forum? Personally I think that a lot has been done, but we still have a long way to go – and that short term politics keeps the laggards from facing any kind of institutional consequences for their failure.
#348 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply Hobbyty # 329
“Show a bit of generosity and humour. And why is it that Muslims of India have only the choice of Pakistan as home. From my interaction, and again this is strictly personal, why should this choice be restricted to Pakistan?”
Agreed – most Indian Muslims would prefer to live in Canada than in Pakistan. Vaisai, most Pakistani Muslims would ALSO prefer to live in Canada than in Pakistan…er, was this your point? Ya aap Sindhudesh ke bare mein baath kar rahe thhe?
Kya haal bhaijaan?
“Show a bit of generosity and humour. And why is it that Muslims of India have only the choice of Pakistan as home. From my interaction, and again this is strictly personal, why should this choice be restricted to Pakistan?”
Agreed – most Indian Muslims would prefer to live in Canada than in Pakistan. Vaisai, most Pakistani Muslims would ALSO prefer to live in Canada than in Pakistan…er, was this your point? Ya aap Sindhudesh ke bare mein baath kar rahe thhe?
Kya haal bhaijaan?
#347 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply Harimau # 327
“The WORST thing that has happened to Muslims is learning a trade. Once you learn a trade, as economic circumstances make it difficult to make ends meet, these guys force their kids into the trade at an early age and perpetuate the cycle of poverty…Take instead even a clerk`s son. What can the clerk teach his son except to go to school and get a college degree? If the kid is reasonably attentive to his studies, he will get an education and make something of himself..”
Aiyoh Da! The choice usually wasn’t between being a clerk and a carpenter – it was between being an unskilled labourer and a carpenter. Maybe not perfect, but certainly one step closer to economically enabling a family’s children to study and better themselves. (Not to mention health and nutrition.)
“Trade and craftsmanship are not valued in India because you can always find cheap manual labor and of course we have been taught NOT to value excellent craftsmanship but to go for the lowest price. That poor guy making brass utensils in Moradabad is going to lose his livelihood to factories churning out aluminum and stainless steel utensils by the millions. And the truth is, that poor Muslim weaver in Benares is dependent on a Hindu trader to sell his sarees and that damned bania is making more money than the weaver.”
Bring on the rev dude. You’re talking about distribution systems and share of profits…I’ll admit your point about appreciation of craftsmanship when Indian women stop getting married in Banares/Kanjivaram saris and switch to something churned out by textile mills in Ahmedabad.
“The Indian Army is a darn good place for Indian Muslims just like the US Army has been good for American Blacks. Soldiering is an honorable profession and the guys come out with much more self-confidence than they went in with. They could also get into automotive or electronics maintenance, trades that will pay more and will grow in demand.”
Agreed re: Army. (butswamihowtosquarewithyourcommentaboveabouttradesbeingadeadendaiyaiyappoh!)
“Don`t sit on your haunches and bemoan fate.”
Hai – now whyyyyyy are my haunches are coming into this? Lookist! (I blame too many paper dosais, anyway. You must bear some responsibility for this unfortunate situation I find myself sitting on.)
“Get out and get an education. Above all, leave your hometown. That is the way you will be prevented from being sucked into your dad`s trade.”
Wokay, wokay. Done.
“The WORST thing that has happened to Muslims is learning a trade. Once you learn a trade, as economic circumstances make it difficult to make ends meet, these guys force their kids into the trade at an early age and perpetuate the cycle of poverty…Take instead even a clerk`s son. What can the clerk teach his son except to go to school and get a college degree? If the kid is reasonably attentive to his studies, he will get an education and make something of himself..”
Aiyoh Da! The choice usually wasn’t between being a clerk and a carpenter – it was between being an unskilled labourer and a carpenter. Maybe not perfect, but certainly one step closer to economically enabling a family’s children to study and better themselves. (Not to mention health and nutrition.)
“Trade and craftsmanship are not valued in India because you can always find cheap manual labor and of course we have been taught NOT to value excellent craftsmanship but to go for the lowest price. That poor guy making brass utensils in Moradabad is going to lose his livelihood to factories churning out aluminum and stainless steel utensils by the millions. And the truth is, that poor Muslim weaver in Benares is dependent on a Hindu trader to sell his sarees and that damned bania is making more money than the weaver.”
Bring on the rev dude. You’re talking about distribution systems and share of profits…I’ll admit your point about appreciation of craftsmanship when Indian women stop getting married in Banares/Kanjivaram saris and switch to something churned out by textile mills in Ahmedabad.
“The Indian Army is a darn good place for Indian Muslims just like the US Army has been good for American Blacks. Soldiering is an honorable profession and the guys come out with much more self-confidence than they went in with. They could also get into automotive or electronics maintenance, trades that will pay more and will grow in demand.”
Agreed re: Army. (butswamihowtosquarewithyourcommentaboveabouttradesbeingadeadendaiyaiyappoh!)
“Don`t sit on your haunches and bemoan fate.”
Hai – now whyyyyyy are my haunches are coming into this? Lookist! (I blame too many paper dosais, anyway. You must bear some responsibility for this unfortunate situation I find myself sitting on.)
“Get out and get an education. Above all, leave your hometown. That is the way you will be prevented from being sucked into your dad`s trade.”
Wokay, wokay. Done.
#346 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply ylh # 338
“Pakistan was not created for Indian Muslims.”
Dude, till 1947 we were all Indian Muslims. ??? Aap ka point???
“Pakistan was created on the basis of Muslim Majority areas”
FOR and ON THE BASIS OF are two different concepts. One in no way compromises the other. Jinnah himself was not from a Muslim majority area.
Vaisai, please explain to me, in your own words rather than quotes from somebody else, how Pakistan met the hitherto unmet need of Muslims in Muslim majority areas to live as a majority (which they already were as they lived in Muslim majority areas).
I would further appreciate your comment on the referendum regarding the formation of Pakistan. Which areas (Muslim majority/minority) did Muslims vote FOR it, and where did they vote AGAINST it? Were many of the Muslims who voted FOR it aware that the country was not really being created for them, and that they would not really be welcome there? Actually I’d be interested in hearing what any Pakistanis with muhajir backgrounds think of your view.
“So your entire argument is irrelevant”
The phrase you are looking for is “uncomfortable for Yasser”.
“…but it does prove that two nation theory is not valid any more…”
Never was.
“Secondly, the way you Indians detract from the original argument is amazing. Let me remind you how this started. Mr.Tvarad declared that…”
You will forgive me if I am uninterested in commenting on your entire conversation with TVarad. What I DID want to comment on were some statements, by you, which caught my eye.
“I started with `I am not in the business of justifying killings` ... but I guess you chose to ignore that.”
Actually Yasser, YOU chose to ignore it when you proceded to do just that.
“You are indeed one NATION and not two. There is no difference between you, Pankaj Mishra or Harimau.”
Well, at least you admit that I’m not stupid. Thanks, I guess.
“Pakistan was not created for Indian Muslims.”
Dude, till 1947 we were all Indian Muslims. ??? Aap ka point???
“Pakistan was created on the basis of Muslim Majority areas”
FOR and ON THE BASIS OF are two different concepts. One in no way compromises the other. Jinnah himself was not from a Muslim majority area.
Vaisai, please explain to me, in your own words rather than quotes from somebody else, how Pakistan met the hitherto unmet need of Muslims in Muslim majority areas to live as a majority (which they already were as they lived in Muslim majority areas).
I would further appreciate your comment on the referendum regarding the formation of Pakistan. Which areas (Muslim majority/minority) did Muslims vote FOR it, and where did they vote AGAINST it? Were many of the Muslims who voted FOR it aware that the country was not really being created for them, and that they would not really be welcome there? Actually I’d be interested in hearing what any Pakistanis with muhajir backgrounds think of your view.
“So your entire argument is irrelevant”
The phrase you are looking for is “uncomfortable for Yasser”.
“…but it does prove that two nation theory is not valid any more…”
Never was.
“Secondly, the way you Indians detract from the original argument is amazing. Let me remind you how this started. Mr.Tvarad declared that…”
You will forgive me if I am uninterested in commenting on your entire conversation with TVarad. What I DID want to comment on were some statements, by you, which caught my eye.
“I started with `I am not in the business of justifying killings` ... but I guess you chose to ignore that.”
Actually Yasser, YOU chose to ignore it when you proceded to do just that.
“You are indeed one NATION and not two. There is no difference between you, Pankaj Mishra or Harimau.”
Well, at least you admit that I’m not stupid. Thanks, I guess.
#345 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply Shammi # 335
“once while passing through Moradabad, I was directed by a muslim brassware shop owner to a Hindu`s shop, in case I wanted to buy idols:)”
Probably made by him and he got a cut of the profits. Sound probable to you?
“Did you mean that religious intermarriages are more common in India than in the West?”
No – I meant that religious intermarriages within India’s Middle Class are far more common than Black/White marriages in the US Middle Class. (As we were comparing the Hindu/Muslim and the Black/White divides. Sorry if I was unclear.)
“once while passing through Moradabad, I was directed by a muslim brassware shop owner to a Hindu`s shop, in case I wanted to buy idols:)”
Probably made by him and he got a cut of the profits. Sound probable to you?
“Did you mean that religious intermarriages are more common in India than in the West?”
No – I meant that religious intermarriages within India’s Middle Class are far more common than Black/White marriages in the US Middle Class. (As we were comparing the Hindu/Muslim and the Black/White divides. Sorry if I was unclear.)
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