The Place of Debate

Shankar and dost-mittar: Yes I do not like to be called a Muslim but all my relatives are Muslims. I do not know how I can prove that I am not indian Hindu masquerading as Pakistani. This has been asked before by Pullu and some other chowkies. I can ask one of my friend, Ron Rodebaugh (who wrote an article at chowk sometimes ago) to confirm it.

My opinions are honest because in my area of work, natural sciences or chemistry, dishonestly is quickly caught due to check and balances and analytical thinking. You just can not survive with cheating, fudging the results and lying. This is the kind of life of mind, I like. No I am not brutal with holding no punches. It is basically analytical in nature and viewing the data from a variety of angles (techniques, scientifically). Once analysis using the known techniques leads me to say something, only dishonesty can stop me which I will not use against friends. It does not make me happy to say all that but I really do not have a choice.

For example my last post looked terribly brutal but it was not brutal in my mind because many of you do not exactly know the analysis I was applying. It is very easy for a naieve to conclude that something must be wrong with believing in one god or muhammad as last prophet or praying every friday and eid days. Not at all. The differences I pointed out look very clear and undeniable. It does not mean if a person converts to Islam tomorrow, day after tomorrow his decline will be visible. It is actually the sum or product of generations or centuries of accumulation. Real world overall and over time is a cutthroat competition. On daily basis you may not even feel the difference. Just one factor, lets assume time spent on rituals, accumulates. It may look very insignificant but its cummulative effect over 100,000 day (250 years?) will look significant even in linear relationship. All extrapolations are not linear and non-linear are chaotic or unpredictable. In that kind of situation an insignificant change in the variable might magnify much quickly than 100,000 days, for example amount spent on waddi eid (bakra eid) compared to saving that money. I doubt everybody looks as analytically as I do before saying what I say. Once the results of analysis are in front of you or in your mind, if by just presenting them honestly seems brutal than be it.

My personal preference of Buddhism over Islam without any heartbreak is also analytical. I found more things overthere to connect analytically than with Islam, though I do not practice any religion. May be I did not do my homework about Islam before rejecting it but so far it has no serious implications except few unhappy relatives.

RE: Reply #: 332 dost-mittar

``I may not be able to persuade you but I have so far not seen a single Pakistani or Bangladeshi Muslim (I am not sure about SameerJB but then does he consider himself Muslim?:-)) who thinks creation of Pakistan was a mistake. And it is THEIR thinking that matters.``

It`s not so much that Pakistanis or Bangladeshis (Muslim or non-Muslim) think that Pakistan was a mistake (patriotism is very easy to indoctrinate, btw), it is that they (Pakistanis mostly) want Indians to think the same way too. Which is really what the tantrum over Kashmir is about.

Veeresh,

ooooh touchy aren`t we trying to hide your shame?... If no one takes me seriously why are 90% of the responses addressed to me, and why are shrinks from your country making psycho analytical profiles of me? The truth is that anyone who wastes precious cyber space trying to prove that US loves India better because he was wearing an orange tie could hardly be taken seriously.

Your post about the tie relieved me of a heavy burden. Increasingly my initial estimate of Indian

Secularism, intellectualism, and modernity is being reversed. No longer am I in any of awe of your country which I admit I previously was.

Inyourface,

The Indian obsession with YLH continues I see.

My friend Prem went to Bangalore and is currently studying for a Bachelors in Business there (I think he is a sophomore now or the Indian equivalent). I am sure he will be very successful... One day inshallah.

Secondly it would serve you well to stop assuming so much. I have neither applied for H1B nor do I plan on though the company I am with wants me to. I have a year long OPT up till October 15th which I don`t intend to keep since the only reason I am maintaining employment is so that I can attend the graduation ceremony of my friends. See unlike most brilliant Indians at Rutgers, this `sweat-shop` worker graduated in 3 years instead of 4.

For those of you who are interested in my personal life so much please concern yourself with bettering your own lives... besides who wouldn`t wanna work in a `sweatshop` where you can be on the internet all day.

Indian logic just doesn`t make sense.

More on Would you rather live in a secular state with Hindu theocrats in charge or an Islamic republic with secularists in charge?

Atleast we didn`t get harassed on valentines day in Pakistan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1820000/1820876.stm



Hindu nationalists disgust at Valentine`s Day

Hindu nationalists across India have been protesting in the streets over people celebrating Valentine`s Day, which they describe as an invasive western festival offensive to Hindu values. Tourists shopping in the capital, Delhi, were surrounded by one group of protestors and prevented from holding hands.

In Bombay, members of the nationalist Shiv Sena party, a part of India`s national coalition government, stood outside card shops warning customers not to buy Valentine`s Day greetings.

Other demonstrators ripped up the cards in a show of protest; some made bonfires out of them.

Police in Bombay said they arrested 600 people on Wednesday, to prevent a repeat of last year`s vandalism at a number of restaurants and shops.

Over the last three years the Shiv Sena group has attempted to ban all Valentine`s Day celebrations in India. From the newsroom of the BBC World Service *

ylh #310:

``... is the hallmark of Indian Intellectual tradition (intellectual for the lack of better word).``

Hey YLH! Whatever happened to your Indian friend, Prem? I am sure he is working hard to make it in the real world as a doctor or a scientist.

Good for him and here you are, answering phone for some H1-B sweatshop in Jersey and fighting cyber battles with Indians. I am sorry for Pakistan because you do represent Pakistani `intelligentsia`.

Tera kya hoga, Kaalia?

re: AAmir

{You cannot tell Muslims in India to go to Pakistan }

...but i can tell you to return to your cage in the zoo ...

Dear YLH No. 310. . .

why are you the only person here who takes YLH seriously?

warm regards,

Veeresh

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Veeresh Malik,

I was trying my best to ignore your comment but you don`t give up. The tie was Orange not saffron not that it makes a difference, and the carpet was not green but red. But hey such little lapses are expected. You represent the finest in Indian intellectual tradition. That is why last night I was smiling remembering that famous line from the book `Grey Wolf`.

`Kemal was disappointed. The Greek Generals were not upto the mark.`

Ladies and Gentlemen, Once again, Pmishra is completely absent from the board. Now 10 days later he is going to return and accuse me of the same old trumped up charge despite the fact that I have shown him clearly that he was wrong in suggesting that I didn`t respond to you. The fact that a famous writer like Pankaj Mishra has to resort to lies about me to counter my arguments is a testament to the general decadence and academic dishonesty amongst Indians.



Dost Mittar, whatever your story is I am not denying that there was some exodus before 11th August 1947, but much of it happened afterwards. There is a great book by Alan Mcgrath

called `Destruction of Pakistan`s Democracy` Kindly read it. Your logic is completely flawed however whether or not your facts are. Jinnah`s Pakistan also included Bangladesh which had a huge Hindu Population and still does.

In any event, figures pre- and post 14th August 1947 are astounding. The total people massacred on both sides uptill the Independence Day during all the communal rioting of the 3 months leading upto Partition were close to 3000 or so. From 14th August 1947 to Jan 1948 300000+ had been killed by conservative estimates, and a great majority of them were killed in East Punjab as I have already shown.



Furthermore you take umbrage to my accusation of Nehru. Well what about Jinnah? You are accusing Jinnah rather inaccurately of throwing you out of Pakistan in July 1947 when Jinnah didn`t even arrive in Pakistan till 7th August. Whatever Drama Nehru put on the fact is that the Government of India deliberately kept the police and security apparatus from stopping the communal carnage and massacres. Their plan seems to very clear. Send Muslims to Pakistan and choke that country. To me Nehru, Patel and others were Slobadan Milosovec`s of the time. Remember your countrymen like Mahesh G and others including yourself have accused a man like Jinnah, who was more honest than any other politician or mahatma in the subcontinent, and a man of utmost integrity of something he couldn`t have imagined. Infact by every account, his Government was praised by Hindus and others of stopping the communal carnage. There is a reason why the Non Muslims in Pakistan hold Jinnah in such esteem.

On the other hand Nehru`s government was a conspiring government which forced Muslims of India to go to Pakistan, didn`t do anything to stop the horrible carnage that his constituents unleashed, and later to make things worse held Pakistan`s 55 crores when Pakistan needed them and more importantly the refugees needed them. This was Nehru`s masterplan to ruin Pakistan. IRONICALLY It was only after PAKISTAN got a loan from the Nizam of Hyderabad that the great Mahatma, Gandhi ji decided to twist Nehru`s arm. Nehru might have been a pragmatic leader and a statesman, but his record especially his conduct in Kashmir, his expansionist policies and his scheming canniving policies show a very evil side of the man. No wonder J.F.Kennedy having met Nehru in the early 60s, told his ambassador to India how Nehru was hardly a model for morality (for an account of this read Wolpert`s `A tryst with destiny`)

The actions of your government by any account seem to be criminal and inhumane and brutal. And if Slobo Nehru were alive today, he would be in Hague facing a tribunal not being placed on a pedestal. Yet the shameless creed that you and your countrymen have learnt, you will continue to whitewash your crimes against humanity.





Zafar,

Pakistan was not created for Indian Muslims. Never in the history of the Pakistan Movement was it assumed that all Muslims of India would go live in Pakistan. Pakistan was created on the basis of Muslim Majority areas and its aims and objectives were very clear as expressed by Mr.Iqbal in his famous 1930 address. So your entire argument is irrelevant but it does prove that two nation theory is not valid any more atleast for Indians whether Muslim or Hindu twist the facts in exactly the same way. Bravo.

Secondly, the way you Indians detract from the original argument is amazing. Let me remind you how this started. Mr.Tvarad declared that all communal killings happened in Pakistan and nothing happened in India which is a complete travesty of the truth as the majority of the killings happened in India... quite the contrary Pakistani government was actually praised for how it so efficiently handled the issue that was my point.

I started with `I am not in the business of justifying killings` ... but I guess you chose to ignore that. You are indeed one NATION and not two. There is no difference between you, Pankaj Mishra or Harimau.

Sameer #321

By your reasoning, the fact the Jews have excelled, generally in the professions and academics, in the West, means Christians are uncompetative? unable to compete, unwilling to compete? are culturally at a disadvantage?

Your analysis betrays your ideological ``commitment`` - and that`s a loss for you as well.

Minorities, whenever they are allowed to compete, invariably produce successes that are asymetrical in relation to the number of individuals that form that minority community. This is true of Jews in Europe, Armenians in Muslim countries, Asians in the States, etc..

However; If the central point were it to be that Muslims have not excelled in modern times and that this is in general due to the values and atttudes they have formed with regard to the West and towards the dimished position of Islam as a potent world power, would be generally true.

You seem unable to comment on Muslims and Islam without being crude and display little regard to reason or at arriving at a more truthful statements. You ought to reconsider if you wish to be credible.

Re: Faruk

Thanks for the great Web-site for statistics. I wonder if similar statistics exist for India (with breakdowns by religion/regions)

Re: Dost-Mittar

``..abolish all private/religious/army schools and replace them with State schools...``

You must be joking, are you? Consign education to the same level of mediocrity as the government has done to Air India and countless other enterprises (banks being one)?

Re: Gymnosophist

Kerala`s example is not representative of India. Kerala has an even population distribution (1/3 hindus, muslims, christians) and near 100% literacy. Thus, the demographics in a local regional college are hardly going to be mirrored in an All-India institution, where neither the demographics, literacy rates or poverty levels match that of Kerala`s

Re: Zafar

“small karigar types (masons, carpenters, etc.) at least in Delhi are Muslims. (Also brass workers in Muradabad, weavers – and murthi producers!!!! - in Benares...) So there has been a move into micro business already”

Yes, I have noticed that, too -- although once while passing through Moradabad, I was directed by a muslim brassware shop owner to a Hindu`s shop, in case I wanted to buy idols:) My desire to buy the same, being less than urgent, I merely moved on without buying anything.

“…and these servants are not always the same religion as the employer. I bet you can count on one hand, however, the number of Hindu families you know who have hired a Muslim servant. What’s going on here? …”

Nothing else than guttural discrimination comes to mind. Is this true in the South as well?

‘…and far far far more intermarriage…”

Did you mean that religious intermarriages are more common in India than in the West?

RE: Reply #: 315 Zafar Al-Talib

``Not an edge, but a level playing field (once they get the hell out of those damn madrassahs). Vaisai, perhaps you have a point (!!!) because a relatively high proportion of the small karigar types (masons, carpenters, etc.) at least in Delhi are Muslims. (Also brass workers in Muradabad, weavers – and murthi producers!!!! - in Benares...) So there’s been a move into micro-businesses already.``

Actually, this is where the fundamental failure of Indian planning has occured. Instead of coming up with grandiose 5 year plans, if the Govt. had empowered people to set up their own small businesses, we would have seen wonders in terms of employment. Such a move was at least as important as the green revolution for a country as populous as India since it would have generated massive employment with little administrative and capital input compared to the white elephants known as public sector companies.

Indians are naturally entrepeneurally inclined (they don`t have the Confucian work ethic to be housed in dorms and carted off to the nearest factory to mass produce widgets like in China). The small business sector should have been actively encouraged much, much earlier.

RE: Reply #: 317 Zafar Al-Talib

``.... witness the Government’s reaction to the inclusion of untouchability on the agenda of the Durban (?) Conference on racism and discrimination based on descent or occupation.``

Frankly, I have no respect for such conferences. They are very easily hijacked by extremists for their own ends, generate a lot of hot air and accomplish very little.

If the voices against discrimination in India were not heard it is one thing, but the Indian Govt. has worked overtime to bring the Dalits (the topic they wanted included) into the maintstream with job reservations, political emporwerment and educational quotas. If they haven`t been able to do so adequately it is because of the enormity of the task and not systematic neglect.

YLH

Show a bit of generosity and humour. And why is it that Muslims of India have only the choice of Pakistan as home. From my interaction, and again this is strictly personal, why should this choice be restricted to Pakistan? is there not room for additional states on the Indian land mass? I think opportunities for the debate and development of such possiblities should be priorities within Present day India. Such a debate may engender a larger debate on social justice and values that uphold a multiethnic, multicultural, plural, tolerant, objectively secular political economy. It may sociopolitical movements for larger regional consequences.