The Place of Debate

Did you see Pervezji and Georgeji on BBC and CNN earlier? The carpet was green (on which the media was scuffing their shoes) and George Bhai`s tie was saffron in colour!! And Musharafji was all the time looking at George Bhayya`s tie . . . and smiling?

This is really really bad news for Pakistan.

Looks like Musharaf ji is preparing for teerth yatra soon.

RE: Reply #: 277 dost-mittar

``I do not like quotas, but I do feel some kind of affirmative action is needed to improve the situation of Muslims to overcome systemic disadvanges faced by them; otherwise they will continue to be denied the full role that they ought to play in the public life.``

Are there any empirical studies done to determine the distribution of Indian Muslims in the social spectrum which would help to determine if such steps are needed and if so how they should be implemented?

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Great, great, great discussion on the economic peformance of the Muslim community in India. From AAmir to everyone else, very well thought out posts.

I have noted something that at first appears pardoxical - I found very few Muslims in professional schools I attended, but the ones who were there, were among the very best achievers. Neither of these two observations is difficult to explain, given our socio-economic conditions.

A random thought: With salaried jobs becoming scarce, and small/micro business being the new salvation of India`s lower-middle class, is it possible that the Muslim community might have a small edge?

Romair, YLH, Urstruly

Relevent to the conversation about feudals, secularization/Rationalization and values, notice how blood bond and kinship operate to perpetuate feudalism, a governance of patronage as to primacy of the law and merit. Values are intrinsic to this entire discussion and suggest just the depth we have to access in order to better understand these processes.

From ``Foreign Affairs`` - in a piece entitled, The Pressures on Pakistan``:

http://www.foreignaffairs.org/Search/document_briefings.asp?i=20020101FAESSAY6560.XML&nb=20

``...Two other causes often cited for Pakistan`s repeated economic failures over the past 20 years are ``feudalism`` and corruption. Neither is an adequate explanation, however, and both are misleading. The prominence of hereditary landowners in Pakistani politics is striking, especially when compared with the way the middle classes and wealthy peasants dominate politics in India and Bangladesh. Pakistan`s ``nobles`` (only some of whom hold formal titles) owe their influence partly to their wealth but also, and more importantly, to their positions as leaders of tribes, clans, families, or hereditary religious organizations. Although this ``feudal`` elite is drawn from a much narrower range of families than are the political classes of northern India, it functions politically in much the same way, protecting followers through physical force or by influencing the civil service, the police, and the judiciary.

Over the past 20 years, the effect of the violent traditions in this society has been intensified by the impact of the wars in Afghanistan and Kashmir. Automatic weapons have become readily available, heroin smuggling has increased, and armed radical Islamist militias have grown drastically. In this environment, political and even business figures have had to provide physical protection to their supporters, encouraging the feudalization of what might otherwise have been a relatively progressive urban capitalist class.

In both Pakistan and much of India, it is the overwhelming supremacy of loyalty to blood over trust in the state or the law that lies at the root of corruption and a host of other social ills. Kinship links are the fundamental building block of society and thus cannot help but dominate politics as well. In such a social and political environment, modernization is devilishly difficult. But without progressive reforms, the power of the Islamists will almost certainly grow in the long term, despite the defeat they have suffered in Afghanistan.``

I thought we were done with this endless nonsense about Jinnah being this really, really great guy.

I had even provided Bipin Chandra`s biographical note to YLH which basically said: good leader and contributor to indian freedom struggle (similar terms used for Nehru) who after 1930 adopted extreme sectarian and communal platform.

This was at a point in the debate where YLH was making all kinds of claims about indian historians positive assessment of Jinnah. Suddenly, i got no response but then no surprises here...

The idea of blaming partition on Nehru and Patel is as crazy as blaming it exclusively on Jinnah. To say that Jinnah ``merely wanted a sectarian state but had no responsibility for the killings that followed`` is deeply nonsensical and an insult to commonsense. All three leaders collaborated in this process and all three are culpable. To pick particularly on East Punjab as more communal or the West Punjab as being worse is foolish and self-serving.

My own sense is that the entry of islam into North-West India (current Pak and Nothern India) was accompanied by complete destruction of the indigenous culture. The local elite either had to convert or was killed. This is in deep contrast to south and east india where islam (for the most part) entered without destroying the indigenous elite. As a result relations between the convert indian muslims and representatives of the indigenous culture are very bad in the region, whether in Pakistan or in indian gujarat or UP. At the same time the microscopic size of the Hindu minority in Pakistan is very significant and deserves more explanation.

There is a need to find a construction or narrative on top of this history which is positive and forward looking. Needless to say the Pakistani political class and their cousins in the RSS have no interest in finding such a narrative.

BTW, I don`t think Gandhi was some kind of demi-god either. In reading his works I was surprised by the lack of emphasis on literacy improvement (elementary schools) in India of the 20`s and 30`s. Maybe I missed his main writings on this subject?

re ali1 280

``...much glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses in Badshahi Masjid!``

Insaan to insaan, bezabaan janwaar ko bhi Hindu-Muslim-Sikh bana diya!

Man, that is a no holds barred communalism.

The” Plight” of Indian Muslims.

Folks there are some erudite explanations being offered by the posters on the state of affairs vis a vis Indian Muslims.

Let me offer some less erudite “explanations” with regard to Muslime in India.

First of all keep in mind in a country like India -- ratio wise -- 70% of the Hindus are still very poor, very illiterate very destitute and in real bad shape – compared to the total numbers of the destitute Muslims.

So it is NOT -- that the Hindus are enjoying -- a blissful paradise called India -- and the Muslims are confined to the Black Hole of Calcutta (sorry -- Kolkota).

Secondly the undoing of the Muslims in India is that they are feudalistic and lazy -- don’t like to go to schools and colleges -- are no good in trade or business – abhor the power of science or math – believe in the power of prayer -- will rather loaf around -- than work for an honest living.

Madrassas are still in their blood -- whenever the going gets tough they run to the masjid rather than to the college.

The biggest undoing of the Muslims in India is --their Muslim Personal Law.

That “privilege” is their self inflicted exile into backwardness -- a perpetual exile from modernity – an albatross that has bent their backs -- but they insist on wearing it proudly.

AND of course -- in politics -- even now – as it WAS -- 55 years ago before Independence – the Muslims of India still love to practice Vulturism.

The FACT is -- it is NOT that the Hindu majority has oppressed the poor Muslim minority in India.

The Muslims clinging to their own archaic past and ways -- are largely responsible for what they have done to themselves in India -- as a MINORITY – and what they have done to themselves in Pakistan – as a MAJORITY.

The difference is only of the miniscule degree.

hasan

YLH,

[Indian CONSPIRACY:

West Pakistan`s Economy was vastly dependant on the Non Muslims of this area. Their Exodus and the exodus of their resources meant further setbacks to Pakistan`s Economy which was already teetering.

Pakistan also faced a dearth in clerical staff and middlemen who were mostly Hindu and Sikh.

The problems created by the exodus of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan were much greater and were part of the same conspiracy of the Indian National Congress, Hindu Mahasabha, Adolf Patel and Slobo Nehru. ]

Is it your priority in life to make a complete fool of yourself?

First you throw out the minorities without thinking of the consequences. And then when it hits you, you blame the minorities. What a farce.

Reply # 266 Romair

[``SameerJB #263: Had Shahbaz Sharif and Nawaz Sharif stuck around, the Shariat Bill (fifeenth amendment) would have definitely become a part of the Pakistani Constitution. In this sense, I am unable to understand your motivations. One the one hand you detest the maulvis. Yet you support people like the Sharifs who were a hair away from turning Pakistan into a legal theocracy.``]

Motivations!? Simple... dissolution of Pakistan, return of the Khalsa and return to the much glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses in Badshahi Masjid!

Reply # 266 Romair

[``SameerJB #263: Had Shahbaz Sharif and Nawaz Sharif stuck around, the Shariat Bill (fifeenth amendment) would have definitely become a part of the Pakistani Constitution. In this sense, I am unable to understand your motivations. One the one hand you detest the maulvis. Yet you support people like the Sharifs who were a hair away from turning Pakistan into a legal theocracy.``]

Motivations!? Simple... dissolution of Pakistan, return of the Khalsa and return to the much glorified job of scrubbing Sikh horses in Badshahi Masjid!

RE: Reply #: 271 Zafar Al-Talib

``These political (?) structures are necessary but are not in themselves sufficient (educational capital is another dire need). On a tangent, the deprivation of any group of people is a matter of urgency for a democracy. The fact that it is becoming politically untenable for many groups (witness the rise of the BSP, for eg) is a good thing.``

I think you re-inforced my views with the last sentence. We should ensure that the disposessed have access to the corridors of power which is the surest way to reach an equitable distribution of national wealth.

I didn`t mean to say that the needs of those who are under-represented should not be solved now or should be postponed with my post. It is self-evident that wide economic disparities are the main cause of social unrest, so the sooner they are eliminated the better.

On a side note, for too long we have been in the mode that distributing the national wealth pie equitably will ensure justice. But the point which was missed was that growing the pie fast enough to stay ahead of the population rise and reduce poverty is as important.

And simply giving the people their economic freedom has done wonders; witness the drastic reduction in communal riots in the last decade in India with the implemenation of economic reforms.

ylh:

thank you for your post # 261. I am not surprised that the perpetrators of genocide at the time of partition are now portraying themselves as victims, considering the active help they get in their propaganda from the Pakistani communists and liberals.

Romair 266

``Keep the pot boiling`` - ``If facts do not fit theory, change the facts``

Were communists to operate in the manner of sectarian terrorists - the entire coersive mechanism of the State, Masjid and civic society would come down on them - therefore; a strategy to obfuscate, to hide in plain sight and to set the stage for unstablity and social divisions.

SameerJB #263: Had Shahbaz Sharif and Nawaz Sharif stuck around, the Shariat Bill (fifeenth amendment) would have definitely become a part of the Pakistani Constitution. It had already passed the National Assembly, and had been rejected by the Senate. However, in the next Senate elections, PML would have had more than enough Senators elected to pass the Shariat Bill.

In this sense, I am unable to understand your motivations. One the one hand you detest the maulvis. Yet you support people like the Sharifs who were a hair away from turning Pakistan into a legal theocracy. On the other hand, you oppose Musharraf, who is trying his best to not move Pakistan away from being a theocratic state. Your stance is quite contradictory (as is Shahbaz Sharif`s stance).

You should take a look at the long list of sectarian violence that occured during the PML rule. And the sectarian criminals NS let out of jail. The Sharifs are hypocrites of the highest order.

Once the Shariat Bill would have passed, Pakistan would have officially, for the first time in its history, become a theocratic state. Following is some of its text:

``1. Short title and commencement (1)

This Act may be called the Constitution (Fifteenth Amendment) Act, 1998.

(2) It shall come into force at once.

2. Addition of new Article 2B in the Constitution

In the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, hereinafter referred to as the said Constitution, after Article 2A, the following new Article shall be inserted, namely:-

``2B.

Supremacy of the Quran and Sunnah

(1) The Holy Quran and Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him) shall be the supreme law of Pakistan.

Explanation:- In the application of this clause to the personal law of any Muslim sect, the expression ``Quran and Sunnah`` shall mean the Quran and Sunnah as interpreted by that sect.

(2) The Federal Government shall be under an obligation to take steps to enforce the Shariah, to establish salat, to administer zakat, to promote amr bil ma`roof and nahi anil munkar (to prescribe what is right and to forbid what is wrong), to eradicate corruption at all levels and to provide substantial socio-economic justice, in accordance with the principles of Islam, as laid down in the Holy Quran and Sunnah.

(3) Nothing contained in this Article shall affect the personal law, religious freedom, traditions or customs of non-Muslims and their status as citizens.

(4) The provisions of this Article shall have effect notwithstanding anything contained in the Constitution, any law or judgement of any Court``.

http://www.karachipage.com/news/15amendment.html

Re: YLH

``...Oh so can anyone explain to me why there are no `Muslim` Punjabis in India?...``

YLH, check out the demographics of the district of Malerkotla in Indian Punjab, before you go off in this direction. Malerkotla has a majority muslim population. There are still more than 4000 Muslim Punjabis in Delhi alone.