The Place of Debate

Dear YLH, RSuxena, and so many tohers . . . you would do so much better for most of us and especially yourself if you please stop getting charged up about references to the past made by people of any origin/religion . . . and take some of your fairly superb analytical skills to see if you could project possible spreadsheet like scenarios of:-

a) where our countries seem to be headed based on what you observe and know . . .

and then . . .

b) start debate with a potential of trying to change things including perceptions howsoever the truth may hurt on what steps our countries could take to move forward.

Otherwise we are all beginning to sound like poor versions of the Amoco Indo-Pak satire at onion.com . . .

Reply Shammi, Dost Mittar # 243

Re: low Muslim presence in IITs, IIMs, IAS…

Religion is just one way of classifying people – it might give some further insights into the Indian situation if one looked at other ways of grouping people (gender, economic class, whatever) and saw how these different groups fared in a similar breakdown of numbers.

I would tend to agree with Fuzair, that most Indian Muslims fall into the poorer section of the population, and relatively few into the middle class. Once you modify for class, I suspect (and no figures here, gentlemen, just a hunch) that Muslims are represented in proportion to their presence in the population. (The movement of middle class Muslims to Pakistan, and the tendency of economic class to pass down from one generation to the next, does seem to explain why the Indian Muslim middle class is relatively smaller than the Hindu middle class.)

This raises the issue: why aren’t there more people from poor families gaining entry to the IITs and IIMs, the IAS, etc. Ditto for women. Ditto for tribals (Todas, Mundas, etc.) IMO if the first issue was addressed, you’d see a lot more Muslims in IIT. I agree with you that it has to do with education.

Re:the Indian Muslim social indicators thing, I do believe that there are some social reasons to many of us not moving up the economic ladder as fast as we might – and that this is not ALL an internal cultural issue (though some of it definitely is), NOR one of State oppression. In some ways we are in a similar position to African Americans in the US – a very small group of rich people, growing middle class which is still relatively small, and a large pool of poor people. (Especially so in the North.) Like them, we have risen to prominence in the worlds of entertainment (Bollywood etc.) and of crime (Bhai) – which are often linked (?). Are the reasons they fail and succeed as they do totally dissimilar to the reasons we do? (I know the differences in our situtations are many…just wondering if there are any similarities as well.)

Reply tvarad # 252

“For me, the fact that the Muslim community or any other caste/creed/community in India does not have it`s just share of the pie NOW is not as important as to make sure that the structures for obtaining it are in place.”

These political (?) structures are necessary but are not in themselves sufficient (educational capital is another dire need). On a tangent, the deprivation of any group of people is a matter of urgency for a democracy. The fact that it is becoming politically untenable for many groups (witness the rise of the BSP, for eg) is a good thing.

Shammi,

After the defence minister, its the turkish naval chief who is in Pakistan now. And then it will be another official and then another and then another and then another and then the president, and then the PM, and then FM . PM Ecevit`s solitary visit to a certain neighbor of ours 3 years ago is a distant memory. Bet you didn`t even know his name.

RE: Reply #: 257 ylh

``The lies that are taught to the children of India as obvious by Tvarad`s post which is a complete travesty of truth is perhaps the testament to the fact that there shall never be peace between Pakistan and India..``

ylh,

We are arguing apples and oranges so your views are passe. W.r.t your statement, India can only be dented but never stopped if there is no peace in the sub-continent; Pakistan on the other hand will slowly strangle itself with it`s belligerence. The proof is self-evident. So don`t go cutting off your nose to spite your face.

No matter how many ways Indians come up to obscure the facts, but facts will be facts. They committed ethnic cleansing of the worst kind of Muslims throwing them out of India and into Pakistan to wreck Pakistan at its inception. That is where all the communal killings business started.

Those killed at partition (and most of them were heading to Pakistan) are the martyrs of Pakistan, those who have spilt their blood to make our great country. Unlike the pseudo intellectuals I have no desire to `heal the common wounds of partition` for the wounds we sustained are deeper and much more serious...

ylh,

It was not my contention that Jinnah resorted to ethnic cleansing; it was someone else`s; I was refuting his logic. You could have saved yourself a lot of bile with your ranting and raving.

W.r.t. Jinnah, there could be no further repudiation of his actions than being disowned by his own daughter and grandson who have refused to hand over his ancestral house in Bombay for a Pakistani consulate and don`t want anything to do with him. So much for his legacy.

Hamzad Afaqui #229

Thank you for your kind wishes.

No, I haven`t seen the movie. Not sure how profound simplicity is (what`s profanity got to do with it anyways?). Simplicity is it`s own virtue and I think the more people try to dissect, poke and probe it, the further they move from ever discovering its peace. Like peeling onions to find out what they really are. In case I continue not to make sense, please forgive; these are hard times and there is little calm to go by.

Assalamualaikum,

Aamir

shammi #245: Increasing the size of the middle class is the best way to ensure democracy. No doubt about that. Pakistani urban middle class has traditionally been the wealthiest in South Asia, specially after the Dubai boom.

However, rural Pakistan, under the current system does not and cannot have a middle class. This is something the feudals want to avoid at all costs. Why? Because the moment there is a middle class in rural Pakistan, exactly what you have stated will happen. The rural middle class will get rid of their feudal masters, and take control of Pakistani politics. This is the one and only reason that feudals participate in politics so passionately, and do not just enjoy their lands.

If Pakistan was 2/3rd urban and 1/3rd rural, then urbanites would dominate the legislative bodies, and would force the feudals to reform themselves through laws. However, the ratio is the other way (to be percise, in the last elections, 62% feudal, and 38% urban; however even out of those urbanite 38%, some of the seats went to feudals like Zardari in Karachi).

I don`t see how a rural middle class can emerge, unless political power is forcefully taken out of the hand of the feudals and given to the non-feudals. Or the rules of Pakistani politics are changed. More non-feudals need to be given seats in the assembly. Maybe by introducing technocrat seats, maybe by giving twice as many seats to cities than to rural areas, etc. The feudals themselves will never do this.

hobbytv #244: The mindset of the urbanites has always been anti-feudal. All the Pakistani, ``intellectual waves of reform`` occur in Lahore, Pindi, Karachi, Peshawar, etc. If Pakistani politics were limited to urban centers, Pakistan would already be very democratic. Pakistani urbanites of all social levels take an extreme amount of interest in politics.

However, the actual center of power is rural Pakistan. Unfortunately, I don`t know of any wave that is taking place over there, or can take place over there. The only waves I have heard of are individual going and shooting their feudals, and then getting killed themselves. Contradict this with urban poor people. The laborer in a factory rarely if ever shoots the mill owner. The poor sepoy never shoots the General. The poor beggar never shoots the mayor. All urban shootings are due to sectarianism or ethnicities or robberies etc (or people committing suicide). The social lines aren`t as high as rural areas, because it is impossible for someone to control a poor urbanites life to the same level as a poor rural`s life.

I cannot see the feudals educating their population and empowering them. That would be like shooting themselves in the foot. The only way this power can be taken away from the feudals is through force. Someone has to dictatorially change the rules of politics in Pakistan, to make them purely anti-feudal. Ideally, through massive land reforms. Or by not allowing people with a certain amount of land to enter elections. The current Bachelors degree restriction will get rid of 60% of them. But those slots will be occupied by their US educated kids.

I am hoping the devolution plan will kick off the defanging of the feudals. The exectuive power of one feudal MNA is now delegated to hundreds of locally elected people (33% of whom by law are women, and some by law are peasants). These seats will be initially occupied by the feudals` henchmen, but power will have been diluted. Now one MNA will not enjoy massive executive power, he/she will only have massive legislative power. So the feudals will get elected, make sure no law can be passed that forces them to pay tax, but they will not be able to completely dominate the executive affairs of their constituency, i.e. the deputy commissioner will be under the Nazim, who will executively not be under the MNA.

I hope all this works.

In the twisted electioneering system of Pakistan, the best thing Musharraf can do after the elections (which will be dominated by feudals once again) is to push Pakistani power into urban hands. Give all powerful positions to urbanites. So far all urban parties (MQM, PTI, NAPP, ANP (both urban and rural), etc.) have supported him. The only urban parties against him are religious parties. He needs to somehow ally all these parties together, put them in positions of power, and maybe within five years, they can fix the feudals.

IT`S TIME FOR US TO STOP BOMBING AFGHANISTAN -- THE PARAMETERS FOR TARGETTING ARE GETTING RIDICULOUS -- SOON THERE WILL NO ``TALL MAN`` LEFT IN AFGHANISTAN -- ENOUGH.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Combating sectarian terrorism

Muhammad Shahbaz Sharif

The year 2002 is likely to be a landmark year in the annals of Pakistan, for the reason that our society as whole has started thinking on the same wave-length on the very important issue of sectarian-terrorism. Previously, we all have been discussing and trying to find ways to curb this menace but unfortunately there was a motley of voices and, above all, the drive against this monster was never joined by our security and intelligence agencies. At long last the present army-led government has read the writing on the wall and taken long over due bold actions.

It was September, 1999, when a sudden spiral wave of sectarian killings began from Dera Ismail Khan in NWFP, hit Punjab and Karachi. Earlier on receipt of information that a fresh batch of killers was being trained in Afghanistan, we took up the matter with Kabul but it paid scant attention to our complaint. But everybody, it seemed, from the Interior Minister to the Foreign Office, was unhappy when I disclosed these facts at a press conference. Now there seems to be a national consensus that had we adopted a `tit for tat` policy with Kabul then, things would have worked out much better.

The government will have to devise a comprehensive and consistent strategy to root out sectarian terrorism. In the recent past, the only government that took this monster by the horns was the Muslim League government in Punjab during 1997-1999. The present government need not reinvent the wheel, it merely needs to consult the Home Department and Punjab Police archives. The key implementers of that are still around. Someone has to provide the required leadership and vision to the very capable public servants that we have.

Our government during 1997-1999 was under an unprecedented attack by sectarian terrorists. More than 300 people were killed in about 150 incidents, which tarnished the country`s image before the world and scared away private investors.

We took a conscious decision to fight the curse, considering it a national and religious duty. My government was inducted into office in the backdrop of Shantinagar, Masjid Al-Khair and Iranian Consulate massacres. From that day on, there was no looking back. We took a host of vital steps to meet the challenge.

Punjab Police was neither equipped nor trained to fight terrorism. To begin with we appointed best available officers on key positions; the only criteria were honesty, effectiveness and hard work, invoking comments from objective analysts that the quality of appointments in Punjab was the best in the country`s history. My government put to an end the practice, till then in vogue, of letting politicians in power, feudals and senior government functionaries make recruitment in police of their choice.

We recruited 8000 young educated persons as policemen through a most transparent and fair process. All district Superintendents of Police were given full autonomy and stringent guidelines to ensure merit based recruitment. Except for one district, where the head of police was brother-in-law of a Federal Minister, there were no complaints of nepotism and violation of rules. The officer was taken to task.

Thana Culture: Unfortunately, over the years our police stations have become dens of coercion and corruption where the poor and the hapless are treated most inhumanely. The result is extreme frustration and hatred against this institution. To revamp police stations, we took the landmark decision to recruit 300 police inspectors through the Punjab Public Service Commission to ensure merit based selection. Law graduates, Masters degree holders, doctors and engineers were selected through a very transparent process. No relaxation in the stringent educational and physical standards was given to anyone.

Training for Police: These new recruits went through a rigorous training at the hands of capable officers from the Police Service of Pakistan. Training modules on modern lines were prepared with the assistance of British experts. Leading luminaries from judiciary, police, civil service, media, academia and bar were involved in the training. Islamic scholars regularly addressed them.

Prior to this, training was never a priority in police as it was manned by disinterested non-professional officers under whom training schools taught outdated syllabi. Hardly any resources were allocated to training institutes. Rather they were used as ``parking lots`` for incompetent and undesirable officers. The officers` posting to field assignments was now linked to satisfactory completion of training.

Elite Police Force (Anti-terrorism strike force): The police force in Punjab was no match to the well trained, armed to the teeth, battle hardy terrorist. Our police force was equipped with rifles of the colonial era. There were constables who had never fired a shot in their entire career. To overcome this shortcoming, an anti-terrorist strike force, under the rubric of Elite Force, was raised in a record time of one year.

Instructors from Pakistan Army`s Special Services Group trained about 5000 police personnel. Specially-trained platoons of Elite Force were deployed in every district of Punjab. Latest weaponry, telecommunication equipment and transport were provided. More than Rs. 400 million were allocated for raising this force. The Government of Punjab from 1997-1999 did not purchase a single vehicle for any politician or a bureaucrat but vehicles were purchased for the anti-terrorist force and police.

Incentives for High Achievers and Police force: Despite our efforts to introduce the finest stuff, there was a genuine concern that once in service these officials would get influenced by their surroundings. We, therefore, decided to sufficiently increase their salaries so that they were not easily sucked into the pool of corruption. Just imagine how a poor policeman, who could not make his both ends meet with his meagre salary of Rs 2600, can he be expected to protect the life and property of the ordinary citizen.

About 70,000 constables were given a raise of Rs 1300. Out-of-turn promotions through an objective assessment were given for outstanding performances against terrorism. Over 150 officers and men of Punjab police met martyrdom in the crusade against terrorism from 1997-1999. Their families were given special grants and their children provided jobs. Officers with bad reputation were purged. After a thorough investigation, 64 Deputy Superintendents of Police were put off duty.

Improved intelligence gathering: Effective intelligence plays a pivotal role in anti-terrorism operations. Sufficient resources were provided to the Special Branch and CID in order to enhance their effectiveness, enabling them to penetrate headquarters of terrorist in Kabul, and locations/sanctuaries of wanted terrorists were identified in Afghanistan.

Effective use of media, rewards for arrests, etc., led to the arrests of more than half of 60 wanted criminals. In an effort to reduce hatred and tension and persuade the sectarian warring groups to agree to a peaceful co-existence, we would convene separate and joint meetings of these groups.

These efforts led them to have better understanding of each other`s point of view. At joint public meetings a message of peace and harmony would be conveyed. An Ulema Board comprising highly respected scholars from all sects was formed. This board did a very fine job by unanimously proscribing some 70 odd extremely controversial books which were a great source of fuelling sectarian hatred. Our attempts were helped by the fact that a vast majority of people are averse to killings preached by sham mullahs.

Prosecution of sectarian terrorists has been the weakest point. There were instances of very senior judges refusing to hear cases of desperate terrorists. Judges of courage and integrity were appointed to anti-terrorist courts. Exceptionally high rates of conviction were achieved. Security of judges and witnesses was the prime concern of the government,

In upholding commitment to the rule of law, we demonstrated zero-tolerance for anyone found on the wrong side of law. A Parliamentary Secretary/MPA from Sargodha was arrested on charges of harbouring a wanted criminal, and was behind bars for months. A serving DIG was punished for illegally getting his friend released from Police custody and SSP Gujranwala district was suspended and proceeded against on corruption charges. A judge of anti-terrorist court belonging to Chief Minister`s constituency and supported by a very influential political group, was recommended for removal on poor performance.

All this was achieved at a very high cost and at peril to personal safety. SSP Ashraf Marth, one of the finest police officers, laid down his life in line of duty. Ministers, Chief Secretary and Inspector General of Police were on the hit list of terrorists. An attempt was made to eliminate the Prime Minister and the Chief Minister through Raiwind bomb blast. But terrorists could not defeat the will and determination of our team.

I do realize, however, that our efforts to combat sectarian terrorism were far from sufficient, but we worked with good intention and sincerity of purpose. This madness has affected immensely, and in order to succeed we will have to launch a resolute, and comprehensive crusade which demands sweat, toil and blood.

We would not have been able to achieve half of what we did had it not been for the unflinching support of my elder brother, then Prime Minister Mian Nawaz Sharif.

I don`t wish to be misinterpreted:

The following statement:

2) Slobo Nehru and Adolf Patel for trying to wreck Pakistan by sending all the refugees to Pakistan (this they tried along with blocking our 55 crores).

Should read:

2) Slobo Nehru and Adolf Patel for trying to wreck Pakistan by scaring the Muslims to Pakistan (this they tried along with blocking our 55 crores).

Oh by the way, please don`t come back with : oh but Our education minister was Azad. ... Cuz our law Minister was a Hindu too... we are not counting token Muslims or Hindus or show boys.

COMMUNAL KILLINGS OF 1947 :

Being a decent people we have chosen not to emphasize or appropriate the blame of the communal killings of the partition. Add to that, some of our `South Asian` wannabes like Samina Shah are too busy `healing the common wounds of partition`. All these situations have been taken advantage in the most dastardly fashion by the Indians, who have assumed that we are naive and we don`t know history.

The descendants of the communal murderers now deny their crimes, and are accusing us of committing them. Nothing can be sadder or farthest from the truth. Wanna talk facts.. let us talk facts.



ETHNIC CLEANSING of Muslims from East Punjab:

Through a well orchestrated plan, the Indian Government led by Nehru and Patel took advantage of the Hindu Mahasabha propaganda by looking away from communal frenzy and at times expediting the exodus of 7 Million Muslims to Pakistan. The plan was simple. Send so many refugees to Pakistan that the state collapses.

Remember that famous Caravan which has become so characteristic of the partition exodus, the one which stretched for miles after miles after miles. Well guess what ? It was a Muslim caravan heading West and not a Hindu caravan heading East.

THE TIMES (LONDON) September 4th 1947:

A Column of Muslim Refugees 20 Miles long and estimated 200 000 most of them on foot have been straggling into the Border town of Kasur, some 55 miles South of Lahore.

THE TIMES (LONDON) SEPTEMBER 5TH 1947

``The Slaughter in East Punjab was worse than in West, the sikhs were better armed and better organized``

(I wonder who organized them: Yes you are right. the congress Party through the efforts of Slobolal Nehru and Adolf Patel)

The TIMES (London) January 20th 1947:

West Punjab received 5.5 Million Refugees compared to 3.5 Million refugees of East Punjab.



Indian CONSPIRACY:

West Pakistan`s Economy was vastly dependant on the Non Muslims of this area. Their Exodus and the exodus of their resources meant further setbacks to Pakistan`s Economy which was already teetering.

Pakistan also faced a dearth in clerical staff and middlemen who were mostly Hindu and Sikh.

The problems created by the exodus of Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan were much greater and were part of the same conspiracy of the Indian National Congress, Hindu Mahasabha, Adolf Patel and Slobo Nehru.



JINNAH`S EFFORTS TO STEM THE MADNESS:

Whereas I have already quoted many of Jinnah`s speeches which are all emphatic in their message so I will refrain from re quoting all 50 of them.

There are good works by Sharma, a Hindu Journalist based in Pakistan at the time of the partition, and `Insights into Pakistan` by Sri Prikasa the first Indian High Commissioner to Pakistan which outline Jinnah`s role against the communal murderers, his police and his crack down on those going after the Hindus and the sikhs. Infact Sri Prikasa called Jinnah the `Protector-General` of the Hindus in Pakistan.



Tvarad in his ignorant post claims that no ethnic cleansing happened in India... placing it on two naive premises: 1) since there are Muslims in India there was no ethnic cleansing in India. 2) there are no Non Muslims in Pakistan.

The fact is that Ethnic cleansing happened mostly in Punjab, and mostly of Muslims in East Punjab according to the figures. The retatliation led to the ethnic cleansing of West Punjab. The Hindu Populations of Sindh, though harmed to some extent, and Hindu Populations of Bengal remained intact. Infact Bangladesh has 20% Hindu Population and in Sindh there are close to 1.5 Million Hindus.

Jinnah`s complicity in the so called `Ethnic cleansing` was only as much as Gandhi`s complicity in the `Moplah Killings` in the aftermath of the Khilafat Movement in 1920s or as much Gandhi is to blame for say the Jallianwalla Massacre.

Jinnah and his Government, especially the able sophisticated Sir Francis Mudie overcame all odds and manage to restore order in Punjab way before it occured to Slobo Nehru to send his police to East Punjab to protect the Muslims.



All in all the blame for Communal massacres and ethnic cleansing of Punjab on both sides lies with

1) Hindu and Sikh Intolerance to Partition demand and the creation of PAKISTAN which was an accepted legal fact.

2) Slobo Nehru and Adolf Patel for trying to wreck Pakistan by sending all the refugees to Pakistan (this they tried along with blocking our 55 crores). <

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts