The Place of Debate

temporal #72 you write ``If we had free representation my vote would be for pakistan…with or without Kashmir…enough is enough…"

You are displaying symptoms of Kashmir Fatigue. There is a lot of going around, I understand. I look at it this way - with all this bickering over kashmir, we lost all of India. How many tens of thousands of Pakistanis will die without ever visiting Agra, or check out Mumbai, or hang out in Delhi, see the Rajasthan palaces, or rent a boat on Dal (?) Lake.

Hmmmmmmm..........

OK, I admit that did not sound tragic enough. Let me try again:

How many Pakistanis who are illiterate laborers today would have been educated scientists, doctors, lawyers, poets, philosophers if the feud with India had been nipped at the bud in 1947 and Pakistan remained the ``model developing country`` that it was dubbed by the Harvard economics professors back in 1964? How many youth languishing in Afghan jails as taliban would have been globe-trotting executives wearing Armani suits and talking with fake Oxford accents? How many military officers would never have joined the military, and have found a real job rather than spending their lives saluting and returning salutes? How many babies who died in infancy would have survived to become beautiful maidens, breaking hearts of young men (latter also dead in infancy, alas)? We might even have had a team in the football world cup giving the (also non-existent) Indian football team a run for its money in the world cup finals.

Oh the pity! the sorrow, Iago (I think I am getting my tragic characters confused now, and so will end here).

Becharay Indians,

P-mishra is still missing. And then he is going to return and repeat his lies and allegations against me. I have answered him on 5 different occasions. Its not my fault he doesn`t read them. He doesn`t want to read them.

Dost mittar,

You continue to view history from the biased lens of a refugee. I have already quoted from the Journalist Sharma, and the Indian High commissioner Mr.Sri Prikasa`s book `Insights into Pakistan`. Both of them are full of praise for Jinnah`s Government and its role to protect Hindus in Pakistan post 14th August. Are they Pakistani agents? Yet you continue to harp on the same old same old in right royal Indian fashion knowing full well that even the dates you gave are well before Jinnah`s Government even took charge. I wonder if Jinnah didn`t take active measures why ... why then does the Indian High commissioner praise his efforts calling him the `protector general` of the Hindus?

Well so be it. No surprises.. what more can one expect. It is beyond the capacity of an Indian to accept that he may be wrong, so I am ready for an eternal conflict.



Shammi,

Once again you are too late, I have already used Milosovec`s example. Now you can go on twisting words and creating ironies as is your creed, but the fact is that the `Times` London and all the statistics clearly show that the Indian Government in 1947 turned a blind eye to massacres of East Punjab, while the Pakistani Government was praised even by the Indian high commissioner for its swift action.

But like Dost mittar you too have a major disadvantage when it comes to being objective: You are an Indian. You will never accept that you people ethnically cleansed the Muslims from East Punjab to create problems for Pakistan.

Assumptions

To see how Indians make a fool of themselves please observe the interaction between myself and inyourface 344 and 345.

The poor guy assumed that since my friend Prem is an Indian, he has to be studying Medicine or Science, for after all that is the only worthwhile profession. Prem was much more brilliant than that. He was taking courses like Islam, and comparitive religions at Rutgers.. he could have been a great doctor if he wanted but he was much more than that to be confined to a limited exclusive field.

But the assumption was that since I am a Pakistani I have to be dumb... even though I graduated in 3 years instead of 4... and the poor indian also assumed that I had to be a candidate for H1B, when I don`t even plan on staying in the US.

SameerJB:``In that kind of situation an insignificant change in the variable might magnify much quickly than 100,000 days, for example amount spent on waddi eid (bakra eid) compared to saving that money. I doubt everybody looks as analytically as I do before saying what I say. Once the results of analysis are in front of you or in your mind, if by just presenting them honestly seems brutal than be it.

``

How about the amount spent on Basant festivities, that would save a bundle too :) But these peasants don`t understand the workings of your brilliant mind.

Peace.

Sameer, Shankar, all,

Interesting thread; just saw it.

Sameer, what`s your take on Indonesia, East Timor and Acceh?

Also, if you have the time, the implementation of the Sharia in Nigeria.

regards

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...Muslims of Pakistan are better off after Partition...Hindu middle-class was dispensable in West Pakistan...``

Dost, have you read Hoodbhoy`s latest column in TFT:

``...In this country of 150 million people, there are perhaps fewer than 20 computer scientists of sufficient caliber who could possibly get tenure-track positions at some moderately good US university. In physics, even if one roped in every competent physicist in the country, that would be insufficient to staff one single good department of physics. As for mathematics: to say that there are even 5 real mathematicians in Pakistan would be exaggerating their numbers...Where, then, can Pakistani universities – including those yet to be established – hope to draw their faculty from?...This leaves only the science juggernaut on our eastern border...Given the highly asymmetrical Pakistan–India situation, it will be to Pakistan’s advantage if high-level manpower is imported from India...Institutions such as the Tata Institute of Fundamental Research, Madras Institute for Mathematical Sciences, and the five Indian Institutes for Technology, and several others, are simply world-class. They have no counterparts in Pakistan. ``

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news6b.htm

Take a wild guess as to how the ideologues will retort to these rantings of a scientist? Hoodbhoy is cautious enough to ask, ``Shall Pakistan’s policy-makers have the courage to pay the political price and finally create real universities?``

And you still persist in propounding politically correct ideas lest you `upset` someone?

P.S. Hoodbhoy is wrong about the number of IITs (there are six, not five -- one more was built in the 90s in Guwahati)

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Re: Dost-Mittar

``..But from an equity viewpoint they (Indian private schools) have been a disaster....``

If asked to chose between a garland-maker or a charcoal-maker, you will pick the latter -- reducing everything to the same, mediocre, unappealing, amorphous form.

Re: Dost-Mittar on education

I was alarmed at what I thought were your suggestions of nationalization of education. The government should keep its messy fingers out of private educational institutions, and indeed let them flourish through benign neglect. If you are making the case for greater government funding of education, sure, I am for it -- but remember, it is higher today than at any time during India`s history, and yes (there is greater literacy today than when all three (3) British-run government schools were ostensibly better).

Shankar

``you`ll need that practice when your countrymen dangle you at the end of a rope``

Incredible! Really, in bad taste; a poor replacement for argument or even humour, disappointing.

Zafar al-Talib, Dost Mittar

Gentlemen:

Read the entire post to better understand the post. If you should choose to concentrate on a sentence, you will have only yourself to blame for the misunderstanding. interesting posts with regard to Muslims in India were registered; I found it interesting that a good many Indians made it point ot suggest that if it were true that the lot of the Muslims in India was not better than those in neighboring countries, who ever else may be responsible for this, it was most certainly not the state.

If you will read my post completely, you will note that I suggest such problems go beyond seeking to place blame and that open public debate about this may have repercussions beyond India. I have learned a lot about the varieties of opinion within the Indian Muslim community, especially from Zafar. I understand Indians and Indian Muslims have a different style in their approach to debating issues that may reflect upon Indian state. remember, Zafar, I am conscious of this when I express myself to you.

Dost, if the creation of space for another Muslim or several different states to exist within present day India is not a general good, do you not believe open debate about what a multicultural, multiethnic, polyglot ``ought`` to be and how it may seek to respond to questions of social justice, equality before the law, remain a priority?

In case it has not sunk in it - the paradigm regulating relations between Pakistan and India has already changed - perhaps, we should all reflect on this and think of addressing todays problems; yesterdays problems have changed.

dost-mittar: Sameer is an acceptable Muslim name. It is quite popular in the Turkish speaking world. In addition to Sanskrit, it has its roots in Persian Samar (meaning fruit), sameer meaning fruit bearing or fruitful?. Additionally it can be pronounced without difficulty by most - phonetically speaking.

RE: Reply #: 329 hobbyty

``And why is it that Muslims of India have only the choice of Pakistan as home. From my interaction, and again this is strictly personal, why should this choice be restricted to Pakistan? is there not room for additional states on the Indian land mass?``

I would have thought that the abject failure of just one such experiment called Pakistan would have put this kind of thinking out to pasture. It has conclusively proved that physical boundaries based on religious ideology are no panacea for systemic problems in society. A better idea would be for Pakistan to admit the two nation theory (or three nation theory now) was a big mistake, bury it and start working on true social emancipation based on the real needs of the people. Recent events have shown how dire the need for such thinking is.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``... I won`t give his name because I don`t wish to upset anyone...``

I do not think that `upsetting someone` is more important than speaking the truth and stating the facts.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...Which fake Muslim will use a sanskritic monikar like sameer?...``

Dostji:

Sameer is actually an Arabic word (cool breeze), not Sanskrit.

Ref shammi #: 357

[I found it hard to swallow statements such as:

``...The WORST thing that has happened to Muslims is learning a trade...``

Unles I have totally misunderstood your intent, that statement reeks of prejudice and condescension. Have you noticed how the Hindu society is organized COMPLETELY on the basis of profession? Need I go into the details?]

Excuuuuuse me. If the Hindus condemn a barber to hereditary barberdom because of his caste that is a barbarity but if a Muslim`s descendants follow their parent`s trade that is okay? It is okay even if it condemns them to remain stone masons and carpet weavers and metalsmiths for the rest of their lives? It is okay if it forces child labor to augment the family`s income and the family is forever trapped in a vicious cycle of poverty?

I repeat: if it is bad for a Hindu barber to remain a barber from Aurangzeb`s time, why is it okay for a Muslim barber to remain the same for the same duration?

If a Hindu barber`s son breaks through and gets a different job and then his son gets a college education and moves off to the greener pastures of USA as a code coolie, why shouldn`t the Muslim be able to do the same? Why should he trust that Allah will provide, have 4 wives and 18 children, and condemn his descendants to poverty?

#360

``You have asked why there was no exodus of Hindus from East Bengal. ``

Sheesh, somebody forgot to tell my whole damm family about this!