An Insight Into the Way Shiv Sena Functions

Harimau,

Your statement shows that you are a reflection of what your nation feeds you. First Pakistan is not Palestine, Musharraf is not Arafat and taking an issue with the seriousness it deserves can make a difference to the man on the street. Don`t be a slave to whatever the media rubs in your face.

Aisha.

sarwari #8

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The programme was arranged by Los Angeles World Affairs Council the other day and was co-sponsored by Council of Pakistan American Affairs (COPAA).

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Indeed, these are very neutral sponsors. Why not also have a discussion also sponsored by the JeM and the LeT? I am sure they would come up with excellent suggestions.

[begin quote]

Wolpert, who is an author of over 20 books

...

on

Pakistan could not have a better leader than Musharraf.

``If he (Musharraf) is removed, Pakistan could either go back to the kind of narrowness of rule that it had before or it could become more militant in defying India, since there are a number of generals, who have been removed by President Musharraf, who are still waiting in the wings and would like very much to take a more vigorous action,`` Wolpert told an audience at the prestigious Beverly Hills Hotel, consisting of professors, researchers, politicians and students.

[end quote]

Pure nonsense and pure pandering. Musharraf is yet another pakistani dictator who has changed his tune for the west at gunpoint. Maybe if he behaves himself (remember Kargil! remember the coup against Nawaz Sharif! remember the ludicrous claim at Agra about ``freedom fighters`` vs Jihadis) in a couple of years the indians might take him seriously. Let him be replaced by another dictator. Wolpert might be unhappy but no indian should care.

[begin quote]

. The Indians, however, like to say there is no Kashmir problem, which they do for their own consumption

[end quote]

Thats right. That`s why Vajapayee, a right-wing hindu, went to Lahore. What do you think he did that? I have yet to see a single pakistani recognize the significance of his effort. Six months later we had Kargil. Subsequently the ``war-mongering`` BJP goverment invited this commando clown Musharraf to Agra. All of this because indians believe there is no problem in Kashmir!

No goverment is going to negotiate at the point of a gun. That is exactly what Musharraf wants to do. Fortunately, the indian guns are now also ready at the border. The indians are so impressed with Musharraf`s rhetoric about ``freedom struggle``, they want to liberate all of Pakistan.

Shiv Sena is the true representative of Hindustani people and Thackray is the best leader Hindus ever had.

I`ve had enough of this Thack Chap!
Hope he gets to spend much time downwind from
some of our Mullahs.

Ras

Ref sarwari #: 8

[India should take Musharraf seriously, says Wolpert]

About as seriously as Sharon is taking Arafat.

These thugs need to be monitored, confronted, charged with criminal acts when neccessary and treated mercilessly by the sentencing courts when found guilty.

Either that or a quick ``thwack`` on the back of their knees when they go prancing around in their big gay boy scout khaki shorts.

Remove a virus from a body to prevent infection.

As a former boy scout myself (also gay, incidentally) who was and is still proud to wear khaki shorts, I hope it isn`t too petty to register my disapproval of these yobs desecrating the traditions of this illustrious garment with all its honourable scouting associations. The result is that their use of the colour khaki in this context reflects the worst excesses of militarism - maybe not such a coincidence after all?

Re: # 89
This relates to No 10 (Hardeep). Sorry!

That wildlife photograph exhibition of Thackeray`s nephew(not son) at Jehangir Art Gallery was one I wandered into as a tourist. We were told that bookings at the gallery were made months ahead of time, so surely some armtwisting was used by Shiv Sena to make this event happen. There was a heavy police bandobust there with metal detectors and even mahila police armed with guns. A long line of people, families all in their best clothes, bussed from mofussil towns was dutifully filing past the exhibits by the `greatest wildlife photographer` or some similar blurb. I told my father I wanted to walk out holding up a piece of paper saying `don`t preach hatred`, my father gave it some serious thought and said no. A few days later a newspaper photograph of a woman with her saree all askew, grappling with the police in a protest against the Shiv Sena made me feel good that the spirit of dissent was willing to be seen in public.

While it is clear that Thackeray/Shiv Sena`s aggressive violent approach based on hate is VERY bad news for India and Indians, in addition it provides an atmosphere of violence for those bent on killing others for jihad, for example.

The only solution is that the Indian state has to come down strongly on both. Hence no alliances with Shiv Sena until they give up their violent tactics and hateful speech and no negotiations with terrorists until they give up violence and their religious war rhetoric. Being India, neither is likely to happen since we prefer to hang in ambiguous limbo holding out hopes of absolution to all instead of taking a firm stand.

India should take Musharraf seriously, says Wolpert

By Fakhr Ahmad

LOS ANGELES, Feb 6: The time has come when India should start taking Pakistan`s military ruler Pervez Musharraf seriously and must realize that Kashmir is really a problem.

This was stated by an eminent scholar on Asian history and former Assistant Vice-Chancellor at UCLA, Professor Stanley Wolpert, at a one-hour examination of issues pertaining to nuclear rivals India and Pakistan.

The programme was arranged by Los Angeles World Affairs Council the other day and was co-sponsored by Council of Pakistan American Affairs (COPAA).

``We have to take a more proactive role in helping to resolve the conflict in Kashmir. It is a conflict. The Indians, however, like to say there is no Kashmir problem, which they do for their own consumption. (But) anyone who knows the region understands that the Indian army is viewed by most of the Kashmiris in the valley as an army of occupation, not as an army of protection,`` Wolpert said.

Wolpert, who is an author of over 20 books on Pakistan and India and an internationally recognized authority on India-Pakistan affairs, said for India, Pakistan could not have a better leader than Musharraf.

``If he (Musharraf) is removed, Pakistan could either go back to the kind of narrowness of rule that it had before or it could become more militant in defying India, since there are a number of generals, who have been removed by President Musharraf, who are still waiting in the wings and would like very much to take a more vigorous action,`` Wolpert told an audience at the prestigious Beverly Hills Hotel, consisting of professors, researchers, politicians and students.

The professor said he hoped India would appreciate that Pakistan was not trying to destabilize or destroy India`s elected government; that Pakistan respects and recognizes India`s elected government, and that the current buildup on the border was an excessive escalation.

``President Musharraf has done something which I think very few generals in modern times can be expected to do. He has, I believe, the toughest job of any leader of any nation in Asia today.``

He said the swiftness of Pakistan in preventing a dreadful nuclear war, whose capitals are just seven minutes of ballistic missiles of each other, in the aftermath of Dec 13 attacks on Indian parliament building, by putting some 2,500 suspected terrorists behind bars and retaining a degree of cool and banning five militant organizations, all indicate remarkable Pakistani statesmanship.

During the hour-long discussion, Wolpert, who visited Pakistan and India last December, also dwelt at length on why negotiation was the only way to resolve Kashmir issue and why India was feeling dejected following the Sept 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington DC.

Wolpert said many in Pakistan believed that the Dec 13 attack on the parliament was staged by India itself.

``Though I don`t believe for a moment that that is true or that was the case but there were many Pakistanis who did because the Indian false hijacking of one plane a few months before, and then several years before, led them to feel that India would do anything to call sufficient attention so that it could act with impunity in taking Kashmir, the Azad Kashmir quarter, that is in Pakistan`s control.``

The problem is India is feeling neglected after Sept 11 and had been disappointed that USA had turned to Pakistan, which was geographically necessary for any action in Afghanistan, despite its (India`s) open offer to facilitate US troops. Then, India chose a maverick way to get attention.

Wolpert reminded Indian leadership of Mahatma Gandhi`s simple solution on Kashmir: ``One should always admit one`s mistakes,`` Gandhi told premier Nehru: ``I shall advise Pakistan and India to sit together and decide the matter. If they want an arbitrator they can appoint one. Kashmir cannot be saved by military might alone. India and Pakistan must come together and decide the issue with the help of impartial mediation. Is there no one in India who is impartial?``

In the last weeks of Mahatma`s life, Gandhi moaned only the good and the noble could be brave; stupid could never be brave, adding, ``If I had my way I would have invited Pakistan`s representative to India and we could have met, discussed the matter and worked out a settlement. We should at least try.`` Then he said: ``Today, mine is a cry in the wilderness.``

Ten days later he was assassinated by a Hindu who said that the old man was nothing but a Muslim lover and a traitor to India.

That Hindu was part of the RSS, part of the right-wing extremist Hindu group that has among its more recent members many of the leaders of India`s current BJP government, including its prime minister who was once a member of that group.

“I have already warned of the consequences. My only condition is that I want to be lodged in a cell with Indian style toilet. I will not accept the western commode.””(Thackeray)

Thank you cutandpaste(#6)for this gem.

My urgent appeal to Indian government – please accept Mr Thackeray’s “condition” pronto --immediately -- do as he says – lodge him in an Indian latrine -- and please DO NOT -- and I repeat DO NOT -- lodge him in a western commode.

The Hindutva`s Cholera-man would rather spread his sh#t all over -- than use a western porcelain commode – beware of the health ``consequences`` – Moombayee -- hurry, throw him in a Hindutva Latrine.

Re: Harish

Thanks for an informative glimpse into the physche of intolerance. The tragedy is that this intolerance is san frontiers and exists every where in this world. The greatest rallying cry in politics is fear and nothing motivates people to organize around an idea as the fear, supported by ignorance, of that idea.

Ciao

pmishra, Shammi,

Don`t forget the commies in calcutta. They wanted to replace all the marwaries with Begalis. Gujrat welcomed the Marwaries and we all know who came out on top.

Faruk

Re: Pmishra

``...Hyderabad, Chennai and Bangalore are all booming. ...``

And don`t forget Delhi either. It is quite well, thank you.

The article shows what a bunch of hooligans the Shiv Sena and the Shiv Sainiks are. How can one expect progress to emerge from their kind? Farzana was right in her article, when she called Thackeray a terrorist -- and herein lies the answer to the author`s question ``Why did the Sena baulk from owning up to the act (of vandalizing the Board of Control for Cricket in India`s offices)?``. The Shiv Sena, like all terrorists (especially those motivated by political ideologies) live and die on the basis of popular opinion. When there is global condemnation of their acts, they run with their tails between their legs. Vandalizing BCCI and preventing the Pakistan cricket team from playing was an event that cut across political ideologies. When the Sena found that they were on the receiving end of criticism from everyone, they did what cowards do -- turn on a dime and run.

INTERVIEW

`It will be a very costly mistake`

An interview by INDIA TODAY Associate Editor V Shankar Aiyar.

India Today

Mumbai was agog all of Monday night with one rumour: Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray may be arrested any time. Come Tuesday, Thackeray was still at home, showing little or no signs of having heard any of this. Outwardly, the Sena chief is showing no signs of nervousness or concern at the impending event.The Tiger though is angry and upset at what his former disciple, Chhagan Bhujbal has unleashed on the eve of Guru Poornima. Bal Thackeray took a break from marshalling his resources and preparing for a legal summit tonight, put away Anwer Bati`s Cigar Companion The Connoisseurs Guide, lit a Romeo Juliet and spoke to INDIA TODAY Associate Editor, V Shankar Aiyar.

IT: The past seems to have come back to haunt you. An old case and an old follower....What do you make of it? Is it a political gambit, a bluff or reality?

Bal Thackeray: It is just madness. What is surprising is that Vilasrao is a legal man and knows the law. He knows that the case is weak and will not stand in court. If proven guilty, the charge under 153 A carries a penalty of from one year to three years. But the charges have to be filed within a certain period. It is now almost eight years and Vilasrao knows all this. In spite of it, he is behaving like this.

IT: Why? What is the real story?

Bal Thackeray: Vilasrao is helpless. You see, he became Chief Minister after great difficulty and with some luck, since Sushilkumar Shinde lost out. He is not interested in anything but his chair. He will naturally protect, take care of not to lose his chair. Lakhoba (Chhagan Bhujbal) knows this weakness and is exploiting it fully. Deshmukh`s weak point is Bhujbal`s strong point. I expected Vilasrao — a khandaani manoos — to know better, put his foot down. He should have said, I have to rule and don`t want any disorder.

IT:Why should he say or do that?

Bal Thackeray: You see Bhujbal and this government is making this sanction to prosecute a prestige issue. It seems they want to gain prestige by putting Thackeray behind bars. I am telling them it will be a very costly mistake. They will be paying a very high price for this false prestige.

IT: Isn`t it ironic that on the eve of Guru Poornima your former follower has done this?

Bal Thackeray: What can I say. Guru cha phal guru-la phal-li (Guru`s fruits have come to guru). For 25 years, this man worked with me. But this is what happens to converts. Converted people try their level best to prove their loyalty. So this man is trying to prove his loyalty to the Congress. He feels that unless he attacks me poisonously, he will not be accepted.

IT:There is also the case connected to the Srikrishna Commission report?

Bal Thackerey: This and that are two different things. The Commission did not call me, did not summon me, did not hear me. Yet they hold me guilty, without even a hearing. How can you punish without even a hearing? For what?

IT: Your constant refrain about consequences is being read as a threat to make the government go back on its word...

Bal Thackeray: How can you say that? I have not initiated anything. You initiate the action and blame me for the consequences.

IT: Do you think you could have posted a challenge to Sonia if you had remained in the Congress?

Bal Thackeray : That is what Congressmen tell me. But personally, I do not think so. The Congress president is all powerful. Everyone in the party will grumble, but no one will stand up to authority. As for the party`s revival, democracy will bring it to power. People will vote for the Congress when they are fed up with the BJP. But the real revival of the party will depend on the issues it identifies with. Of course, such cyclical revivals will not solve basic problem of the Congress. There is as yet no viable alternative to rebuild or revive it.

IT: Are you happy outside the Congress?

Bal Thackeray: I`m the happiest man. I do not have to continuously bother about the high command`s opinion. I can make full use of my time. I do not have to camp in New Delhi.

IT: But is Thackeray is above the law? Your people seem to indicate so....

Bal Thackeray: Never. We are not foolish to claim we are above the law. Why is this being repeated again and again by political bandicoots. They don`t need to teach me the law. I say they are bringing the law down to such low levels that we automatically seem above it. Don`t bring the law to such low levels and don`t repeat this again and again. I am simply saying this case doesn`t stand a chance. I am saying the government should not only implement the law correctly, but should be seen doing so. Government should not misuse its powers under the pretext of law.

IT: Your statement ``India will burn`` sounds like a direct threat to the government?

Bal Thackeray: I am not threatening. I am just cautioning the government of the consequences. Remember what happened in 1969. I was sent to Yerwada prison in Pune and Mumbai burnt for ten days. The protests you saw are simply the spontaneous reaction of the people. But I have told them to be calm. I don`t want people to be harrassed for nothing. At this stage. But it is bound to happen.

IT: What are you suggesting will happen?

Bal Thackeray: What happened when Indiraji was assassinated in 1984: 50,000 Sikhs left Delhi, 250,000 were massacred....by Congressmen. Why? Ask Congressmen to answer this. This is not a good time with that Farooq asking for a separate nation and all that. The love, the respect and the admiration they have will surface. It will simply be a reaction. I am just warning of what could be. That people will not tolerate any nonsense.

IT: Not everyone believes the Shiv Sena is what it was? Some even feel the response shows loss of following....?

Bal Thackeray: Aha. So what do you want me to say? Do you want us to remove all these doubts? Funny things are being said. Let me remind you that what was seen last two-three days was just a reflection of spontaneous feelings. It wasn`t official. In fact, I have said there should be no agitation just now. If I say it officially, nobody can predict what will happen.

IT: Conventional wisdom in some political circles is that arresting would only make you bigger?

Bal Thackeray: I don`t want to even discuss this. I have never tried to be anybody. Whatever I am, I am. I didn`t want to contest election, don`t want to hold posts or be an advisor. I have prohibited people starting events or trusts in my name. I have told them not to name any structure after my name. I will not write my autobiography. What else do you expect from me? But if they are so foolish as to act in such a manner that will make me bigger, what can I do? How can I stop it? If you or they don`t want this to happen, then stop it.

IT: You have been also quoted as saying that the government will fall?

Bal Thackeray: Yes. I maintain that the government will fall.

IT: How?

Bal Thackeray: It will. Don`t ask me how. That joker, Jogi (Congress spokesman Ajit Jogi) can`t diffentiate between a joke and a statement. Somebody asked me and I said, ``Hamare par 153 lagega tho unpar 356 lagega``. Just like a cartoonist. But you see how he has reacted....

IT: What has he said?

Bal Thackeray: He has said a person who doesn`t even have a right to vote is threatening to topple an elected government. What rubbish. My right to vote may have gone, but you cannot rob me of my birthright to criticise the government. The Shiv Sena has 15 MP`S elected to Parliament, it has 61 elected MLA`S, 10 MLCs and MP`s in Rajya Sabha. I have not given up my birthright. Even if I don`t get my voting rights ever again, I don`t care. Why do they speak in such a loose manner? What about the way Sonia has been behaving?

IT: Can you elaborate?

Bal Thackeray: She came to Ghatkopar just because the majority killed were Muslims. Did she go to Bihar where Hindus were massacred under Laloo`s rule? No. But she went to Dang in Gujarat because Chrisitans were attacked. Each party is trying to find where they can find political breakfast, lunch or dinner. This is nothing but dirty politics.

IT: Your relationship with your allies the BJP has not been very good of late....

Bal Thackeray: No, no. It is not a clash. We have — Vajpayee and Advani — a lot of love and respect for each other. But it was my duty to bring to their notice the differential treatment being meted out to my ministers who were given portfolios without any powers.

IT: Your ministers have met the PM and Advani. What has been the response?

Bal Thackeray: They have been appraised of the situation. They have been told the legal framework and ground reality.

IT: What do you expect of the BJP?

Bal Thackeray: They have their limitations. But that apart, if they want they can do what is necessary. They can tell them that this could create a problem and instruct them to desist from such action. They should know the virus (if Thackeray is arrested) will not be restricted to Mumbai or Maharashtra but will spread all over India. But I don`t want to say anything more. I leave it to them.

IT: Do you seriously feel you will be arrested.

Bal Thackeray: I may or may not be. I am not worried about my arrest. I have already warned of the consequences. My only condition is that I want to be lodged in a cell with Indian style toilet. I will not accept the western commode.



Read a NEWS TODAY EXCLUSIVE from Anjali Cordeiro about how the withdrawl of security for nearly 200 Sena leaders in Maharashtra has got them running scared. It`s a move that is proving to be an ace up the sleeve of the state government.