An Insight Into the Way Shiv Sena Functions

What morons like Thackeray and his lumpen friends dont understand is that Bombay is now rapidly slipping in terms of its standing in India. It is following the exact path of Calcutta in the 60`s and 70s, with the only difference that the do-nothing CPM is replaced by the hate-filled Sena.

Hyderabad, Chennai and Bangalore are all booming. I would predict that within 5 years these cities will pull ahead in terms of rate of growth, breadth of industry and other metrics ahead of Bombay.

Ten years from now Mumbai-ites will be wondering why all the new companies are coming up elsewhere. Fortunately, they will always have the great wisdom of Bal Thackeray to help them pass the time.

INTERVIEW

`It will be a very costly mistake`

An interview by INDIA TODAY Associate Editor V Shankar Aiyar.

India Today

Mumbai was agog all of Monday night with one rumour: Shiv Sena chief Bal Thackeray may be arrested any time. Come Tuesday, Thackeray was still at home, showing little or no signs of having heard any of this. Outwardly, the Sena chief is showing no signs of nervousness or concern at the impending event.The Tiger though is angry and upset at what his former disciple, Chhagan Bhujbal has unleashed on the eve of Guru Poornima. Bal Thackeray took a break from marshalling his resources and preparing for a legal summit tonight, put away Anwer Bati`s Cigar Companion The Connoisseurs Guide, lit a Romeo Juliet and spoke to INDIA TODAY Associate Editor, V Shankar Aiyar.

IT: The past seems to have come back to haunt you. An old case and an old follower....What do you make of it? Is it a political gambit, a bluff or reality?

Bal Thackeray: It is just madness. What is surprising is that Vilasrao is a legal man and knows the law. He knows that the case is weak and will not stand in court. If proven guilty, the charge under 153 A carries a penalty of from one year to three years. But the charges have to be filed within a certain period. It is now almost eight years and Vilasrao knows all this. In spite of it, he is behaving like this.

IT: Why? What is the real story?

Bal Thackeray: Vilasrao is helpless. You see, he became Chief Minister after great difficulty and with some luck, since Sushilkumar Shinde lost out. He is not interested in anything but his chair. He will naturally protect, take care of not to lose his chair. Lakhoba (Chhagan Bhujbal) knows this weakness and is exploiting it fully. Deshmukh`s weak point is Bhujbal`s strong point. I expected Vilasrao — a khandaani manoos — to know better, put his foot down. He should have said, I have to rule and don`t want any disorder.

IT:Why should he say or do that?

Bal Thackeray: You see Bhujbal and this government is making this sanction to prosecute a prestige issue. It seems they want to gain prestige by putting Thackeray behind bars. I am telling them it will be a very costly mistake. They will be paying a very high price for this false prestige.

IT: Isn`t it ironic that on the eve of Guru Poornima your former follower has done this?

Bal Thackeray: What can I say. Guru cha phal guru-la phal-li (Guru`s fruits have come to guru). For 25 years, this man worked with me. But this is what happens to converts. Converted people try their level best to prove their loyalty. So this man is trying to prove his loyalty to the Congress. He feels that unless he attacks me poisonously, he will not be accepted.

IT:There is also the case connected to the Srikrishna Commission report?

Bal Thackerey: This and that are two different things. The Commission did not call me, did not summon me, did not hear me. Yet they hold me guilty, without even a hearing. How can you punish without even a hearing? For what?

IT: Your constant refrain about consequences is being read as a threat to make the government go back on its word...

Bal Thackeray: How can you say that? I have not initiated anything. You initiate the action and blame me for the consequences.

IT: Do you think you could have posted a challenge to Sonia if you had remained in the Congress?

Bal Thackeray : That is what Congressmen tell me. But personally, I do not think so. The Congress president is all powerful. Everyone in the party will grumble, but no one will stand up to authority. As for the party`s revival, democracy will bring it to power. People will vote for the Congress when they are fed up with the BJP. But the real revival of the party will depend on the issues it identifies with. Of course, such cyclical revivals will not solve basic problem of the Congress. There is as yet no viable alternative to rebuild or revive it.

IT: Are you happy outside the Congress?

Bal Thackeray: I`m the happiest man. I do not have to continuously bother about the high command`s opinion. I can make full use of my time. I do not have to camp in New Delhi.

IT: But is Thackeray is above the law? Your people seem to indicate so....

Bal Thackeray: Never. We are not foolish to claim we are above the law. Why is this being repeated again and again by political bandicoots. They don`t need to teach me the law. I say they are bringing the law down to such low levels that we automatically seem above it. Don`t bring the law to such low levels and don`t repeat this again and again. I am simply saying this case doesn`t stand a chance. I am saying the government should not only implement the law correctly, but should be seen doing so. Government should not misuse its powers under the pretext of law.

IT: Your statement ``India will burn`` sounds like a direct threat to the government?

Bal Thackeray: I am not threatening. I am just cautioning the government of the consequences. Remember what happened in 1969. I was sent to Yerwada prison in Pune and Mumbai burnt for ten days. The protests you saw are simply the spontaneous reaction of the people. But I have told them to be calm. I don`t want people to be harrassed for nothing. At this stage. But it is bound to happen.

IT: What are you suggesting will happen?

Bal Thackeray: What happened when Indiraji was assassinated in 1984: 50,000 Sikhs left Delhi, 250,000 were massacred....by Congressmen. Why? Ask Congressmen to answer this. This is not a good time with that Farooq asking for a separate nation and all that. The love, the respect and the admiration they have will surface. It will simply be a reaction. I am just warning of what could be. That people will not tolerate any nonsense.

IT: Not everyone believes the Shiv Sena is what it was? Some even feel the response shows loss of following....?

Bal Thackeray: Aha. So what do you want me to say? Do you want us to remove all these doubts? Funny things are being said. Let me remind you that what was seen last two-three days was just a reflection of spontaneous feelings. It wasn`t official. In fact, I have said there should be no agitation just now. If I say it officially, nobody can predict what will happen.

IT: Conventional wisdom in some political circles is that arresting would only make you bigger?

Bal Thackeray: I don`t want to even discuss this. I have never tried to be anybody. Whatever I am, I am. I didn`t want to contest election, don`t want to hold posts or be an advisor. I have prohibited people starting events or trusts in my name. I have told them not to name any structure after my name. I will not write my autobiography. What else do you expect from me? But if they are so foolish as to act in such a manner that will make me bigger, what can I do? How can I stop it? If you or they don`t want this to happen, then stop it.

IT: You have been also quoted as saying that the government will fall?

Bal Thackeray: Yes. I maintain that the government will fall.

IT: How?

Bal Thackeray: It will. Don`t ask me how. That joker, Jogi (Congress spokesman Ajit Jogi) can`t diffentiate between a joke and a statement. Somebody asked me and I said, ``Hamare par 153 lagega tho unpar 356 lagega``. Just like a cartoonist. But you see how he has reacted....

IT: What has he said?

Bal Thackeray: He has said a person who doesn`t even have a right to vote is threatening to topple an elected government. What rubbish. My right to vote may have gone, but you cannot rob me of my birthright to criticise the government. The Shiv Sena has 15 MP`S elected to Parliament, it has 61 elected MLA`S, 10 MLCs and MP`s in Rajya Sabha. I have not given up my birthright. Even if I don`t get my voting rights ever again, I don`t care. Why do they speak in such a loose manner? What about the way Sonia has been behaving?

IT: Can you elaborate?

Bal Thackeray: She came to Ghatkopar just because the majority killed were Muslims. Did she go to Bihar where Hindus were massacred under Laloo`s rule? No. But she went to Dang in Gujarat because Chrisitans were attacked. Each party is trying to find where they can find political breakfast, lunch or dinner. This is nothing but dirty politics.

IT: Your relationship with your allies the BJP has not been very good of late....

Bal Thackeray: No, no. It is not a clash. We have — Vajpayee and Advani — a lot of love and respect for each other. But it was my duty to bring to their notice the differential treatment being meted out to my ministers who were given portfolios without any powers.

IT: Your ministers have met the PM and Advani. What has been the response?

Bal Thackeray: They have been appraised of the situation. They have been told the legal framework and ground reality.

IT: What do you expect of the BJP?

Bal Thackeray: They have their limitations. But that apart, if they want they can do what is necessary. They can tell them that this could create a problem and instruct them to desist from such action. They should know the virus (if Thackeray is arrested) will not be restricted to Mumbai or Maharashtra but will spread all over India. But I don`t want to say anything more. I leave it to them.

IT: Do you seriously feel you will be arrested.

Bal Thackeray: I may or may not be. I am not worried about my arrest. I have already warned of the consequences. My only condition is that I want to be lodged in a cell with Indian style toilet. I will not accept the western commode.



Read a NEWS TODAY EXCLUSIVE from Anjali Cordeiro about how the withdrawl of security for nearly 200 Sena leaders in Maharashtra has got them running scared. It`s a move that is proving to be an ace up the sleeve of the state government.

The article shows what a bunch of hooligans the Shiv Sena and the Shiv Sainiks are. How can one expect progress to emerge from their kind? Farzana was right in her article, when she called Thackeray a terrorist -- and herein lies the answer to the author`s question ``Why did the Sena baulk from owning up to the act (of vandalizing the Board of Control for Cricket in India`s offices)?``. The Shiv Sena, like all terrorists (especially those motivated by political ideologies) live and die on the basis of popular opinion. When there is global condemnation of their acts, they run with their tails between their legs. Vandalizing BCCI and preventing the Pakistan cricket team from playing was an event that cut across political ideologies. When the Sena found that they were on the receiving end of criticism from everyone, they did what cowards do -- turn on a dime and run.

Re: Pmishra

``...Hyderabad, Chennai and Bangalore are all booming. ...``

And don`t forget Delhi either. It is quite well, thank you.

pmishra, Shammi,

Don`t forget the commies in calcutta. They wanted to replace all the marwaries with Begalis. Gujrat welcomed the Marwaries and we all know who came out on top.

Faruk

Re: Harish

Thanks for an informative glimpse into the physche of intolerance. The tragedy is that this intolerance is san frontiers and exists every where in this world. The greatest rallying cry in politics is fear and nothing motivates people to organize around an idea as the fear, supported by ignorance, of that idea.

Ciao

“I have already warned of the consequences. My only condition is that I want to be lodged in a cell with Indian style toilet. I will not accept the western commode.””(Thackeray)

Thank you cutandpaste(#6)for this gem.

My urgent appeal to Indian government – please accept Mr Thackeray’s “condition” pronto --immediately -- do as he says – lodge him in an Indian latrine -- and please DO NOT -- and I repeat DO NOT -- lodge him in a western commode.

The Hindutva`s Cholera-man would rather spread his sh#t all over -- than use a western porcelain commode – beware of the health ``consequences`` – Moombayee -- hurry, throw him in a Hindutva Latrine.

India should take Musharraf seriously, says Wolpert

By Fakhr Ahmad

LOS ANGELES, Feb 6: The time has come when India should start taking Pakistan`s military ruler Pervez Musharraf seriously and must realize that Kashmir is really a problem.

This was stated by an eminent scholar on Asian history and former Assistant Vice-Chancellor at UCLA, Professor Stanley Wolpert, at a one-hour examination of issues pertaining to nuclear rivals India and Pakistan.

The programme was arranged by Los Angeles World Affairs Council the other day and was co-sponsored by Council of Pakistan American Affairs (COPAA).

``We have to take a more proactive role in helping to resolve the conflict in Kashmir. It is a conflict. The Indians, however, like to say there is no Kashmir problem, which they do for their own consumption. (But) anyone who knows the region understands that the Indian army is viewed by most of the Kashmiris in the valley as an army of occupation, not as an army of protection,`` Wolpert said.

Wolpert, who is an author of over 20 books on Pakistan and India and an internationally recognized authority on India-Pakistan affairs, said for India, Pakistan could not have a better leader than Musharraf.

``If he (Musharraf) is removed, Pakistan could either go back to the kind of narrowness of rule that it had before or it could become more militant in defying India, since there are a number of generals, who have been removed by President Musharraf, who are still waiting in the wings and would like very much to take a more vigorous action,`` Wolpert told an audience at the prestigious Beverly Hills Hotel, consisting of professors, researchers, politicians and students.

The professor said he hoped India would appreciate that Pakistan was not trying to destabilize or destroy India`s elected government; that Pakistan respects and recognizes India`s elected government, and that the current buildup on the border was an excessive escalation.

``President Musharraf has done something which I think very few generals in modern times can be expected to do. He has, I believe, the toughest job of any leader of any nation in Asia today.``

He said the swiftness of Pakistan in preventing a dreadful nuclear war, whose capitals are just seven minutes of ballistic missiles of each other, in the aftermath of Dec 13 attacks on Indian parliament building, by putting some 2,500 suspected terrorists behind bars and retaining a degree of cool and banning five militant organizations, all indicate remarkable Pakistani statesmanship.

During the hour-long discussion, Wolpert, who visited Pakistan and India last December, also dwelt at length on why negotiation was the only way to resolve Kashmir issue and why India was feeling dejected following the Sept 11 terrorist attacks in New York and Washington DC.

Wolpert said many in Pakistan believed that the Dec 13 attack on the parliament was staged by India itself.

``Though I don`t believe for a moment that that is true or that was the case but there were many Pakistanis who did because the Indian false hijacking of one plane a few months before, and then several years before, led them to feel that India would do anything to call sufficient attention so that it could act with impunity in taking Kashmir, the Azad Kashmir quarter, that is in Pakistan`s control.``

The problem is India is feeling neglected after Sept 11 and had been disappointed that USA had turned to Pakistan, which was geographically necessary for any action in Afghanistan, despite its (India`s) open offer to facilitate US troops. Then, India chose a maverick way to get attention.

Wolpert reminded Indian leadership of Mahatma Gandhi`s simple solution on Kashmir: ``One should always admit one`s mistakes,`` Gandhi told premier Nehru: ``I shall advise Pakistan and India to sit together and decide the matter. If they want an arbitrator they can appoint one. Kashmir cannot be saved by military might alone. India and Pakistan must come together and decide the issue with the help of impartial mediation. Is there no one in India who is impartial?``

In the last weeks of Mahatma`s life, Gandhi moaned only the good and the noble could be brave; stupid could never be brave, adding, ``If I had my way I would have invited Pakistan`s representative to India and we could have met, discussed the matter and worked out a settlement. We should at least try.`` Then he said: ``Today, mine is a cry in the wilderness.``

Ten days later he was assassinated by a Hindu who said that the old man was nothing but a Muslim lover and a traitor to India.

That Hindu was part of the RSS, part of the right-wing extremist Hindu group that has among its more recent members many of the leaders of India`s current BJP government, including its prime minister who was once a member of that group.

That wildlife photograph exhibition of Thackeray`s nephew(not son) at Jehangir Art Gallery was one I wandered into as a tourist. We were told that bookings at the gallery were made months ahead of time, so surely some armtwisting was used by Shiv Sena to make this event happen. There was a heavy police bandobust there with metal detectors and even mahila police armed with guns. A long line of people, families all in their best clothes, bussed from mofussil towns was dutifully filing past the exhibits by the `greatest wildlife photographer` or some similar blurb. I told my father I wanted to walk out holding up a piece of paper saying `don`t preach hatred`, my father gave it some serious thought and said no. A few days later a newspaper photograph of a woman with her saree all askew, grappling with the police in a protest against the Shiv Sena made me feel good that the spirit of dissent was willing to be seen in public.

While it is clear that Thackeray/Shiv Sena`s aggressive violent approach based on hate is VERY bad news for India and Indians, in addition it provides an atmosphere of violence for those bent on killing others for jihad, for example.

The only solution is that the Indian state has to come down strongly on both. Hence no alliances with Shiv Sena until they give up their violent tactics and hateful speech and no negotiations with terrorists until they give up violence and their religious war rhetoric. Being India, neither is likely to happen since we prefer to hang in ambiguous limbo holding out hopes of absolution to all instead of taking a firm stand.

These thugs need to be monitored, confronted, charged with criminal acts when neccessary and treated mercilessly by the sentencing courts when found guilty.

Either that or a quick ``thwack`` on the back of their knees when they go prancing around in their big gay boy scout khaki shorts.

Remove a virus from a body to prevent infection.

Ref sarwari #: 8

[India should take Musharraf seriously, says Wolpert]

About as seriously as Sharon is taking Arafat.

I`ve had enough of this Thack Chap!
Hope he gets to spend much time downwind from
some of our Mullahs.

Ras

Shiv Sena is the true representative of Hindustani people and Thackray is the best leader Hindus ever had.

sarwari #8

[begin quote]

The programme was arranged by Los Angeles World Affairs Council the other day and was co-sponsored by Council of Pakistan American Affairs (COPAA).

[end quote]

Indeed, these are very neutral sponsors. Why not also have a discussion also sponsored by the JeM and the LeT? I am sure they would come up with excellent suggestions.

[begin quote]

Wolpert, who is an author of over 20 books

...

on

Pakistan could not have a better leader than Musharraf.

``If he (Musharraf) is removed, Pakistan could either go back to the kind of narrowness of rule that it had before or it could become more militant in defying India, since there are a number of generals, who have been removed by President Musharraf, who are still waiting in the wings and would like very much to take a more vigorous action,`` Wolpert told an audience at the prestigious Beverly Hills Hotel, consisting of professors, researchers, politicians and students.

[end quote]

Pure nonsense and pure pandering. Musharraf is yet another pakistani dictator who has changed his tune for the west at gunpoint. Maybe if he behaves himself (remember Kargil! remember the coup against Nawaz Sharif! remember the ludicrous claim at Agra about ``freedom fighters`` vs Jihadis) in a couple of years the indians might take him seriously. Let him be replaced by another dictator. Wolpert might be unhappy but no indian should care.

[begin quote]

. The Indians, however, like to say there is no Kashmir problem, which they do for their own consumption

[end quote]

Thats right. That`s why Vajapayee, a right-wing hindu, went to Lahore. What do you think he did that? I have yet to see a single pakistani recognize the significance of his effort. Six months later we had Kargil. Subsequently the ``war-mongering`` BJP goverment invited this commando clown Musharraf to Agra. All of this because indians believe there is no problem in Kashmir!

No goverment is going to negotiate at the point of a gun. That is exactly what Musharraf wants to do. Fortunately, the indian guns are now also ready at the border. The indians are so impressed with Musharraf`s rhetoric about ``freedom struggle``, they want to liberate all of Pakistan.

Harimau,

Your statement shows that you are a reflection of what your nation feeds you. First Pakistan is not Palestine, Musharraf is not Arafat and taking an issue with the seriousness it deserves can make a difference to the man on the street. Don`t be a slave to whatever the media rubs in your face.

Aisha.

Valentine`s Day celebration gets new name in India



MUMBAI (Reuters) - Card shop owners in Bombay plan to promote a festival of love celebrating family ties after a hardline Hindu party said Valentine`s Day celebrations violated Indian social values and should be banned.

The Mumbai Card Manufacturers` and Dealers` Association will bring out special cards and gifts for ``Prem Din Utsav`` or the Festival of Love from February 10-16.

The association plans to place newspaper advertisements urging people to celebrate the new festival by exchanging good wishes, sweets and gifts.

``The cards will express traditional Indian family bondings,`` Hemant Parikh, secretary of the association, said. ``We feel love could be expressed between family members not necessarily among couples.``

Bal Thackeray, firebrand leader of the ultra nationalist Shiv Sena, has called for a ban of the February 14 Valentine`s Day celebrations.

``We call it cultural corruption. Our party opposes Valentine`s Day,`` Subhash Desai, a senior party leader, told Reuters.

Last February, hardline Hindus from the Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal and Vishwa Hindu Parishad invaded gift shops, burned cards and disrupted lover`s day festivities in many parts of India.

``The disruption caused a substantial loss to our business,`` Kalyanji Chheda, vice-president of the association, which has over 500 members, told Reuters. ``We decided to change the name because we don`t want to hurt anybody.``

Despite the call for a ban, in the cosmopolitan city of Mumbai some shops windows were decorated with heart-shaped red balloons, Valentine`s Day cards, gifts and paper roses.

It is stuff like this that makes me lose faith in Indian style democracy. Now, I would totally love to see the Shiv Sena confront the Indian Army. The Shiv Sainik bodies would pile up higher than Nariman Point skyscrapers.

Being a Hindu majority country, we must lead by example of Hindus first. Finish these guys off, and then take on SIMI etc.

….can anyone tell me what bal thackery’s power base is like now?….despite being a thug par excellence, this idiot’s still roaming the streets….what’s the police scared of?...will his arrest cause massive insurrection?…

dost-mittar #16
``BTW I had difficulty believing that Vajpayee threatened Joshi with ouster if he didn`t arrest the shiv sainiks; he refused to move even against Jayalalitha after she humiliated his own Minister.``

dost-mittar, just to put the record straight, Vajpayee stood up to Jayalalitha when she was a constituent in his government. He refused to dismiss the Karunanidhi government in TN as she demanded and refused to get the corruption cases dismissed, so she withdrew her support, his government fell and midterm elections were called.(To give a point of reference in time, it was in the period between her toppling the government and the holding of midterm elections that the Kargil conflict took place)

Hopefully, if this dang democracy thing works, as it does in its own strange ways, time and again, the sena will receive a second kick in their rear ends.

Remember, they got booted out of the state govt. because the voters valued results over hatred and ideology. this will happen again in the next national elections when the voters will have to decide. Right now, there are three horrible choices--the stupid sena, Power-hungry Pawar and the congress cementheads. May the least of the evils win!

The only reason the incompetent cartoonist`s current capers is the thin-ice majority the coalition in power has. They have to look the other way at his moronic threats in order to survive. [do read Rushdie`s The Moor`s Last Sigh where he has fun with the dude].

wholly-precious-you

``can anyone tell me what bal thackery’s power base is like now?….despite being a thug par excellence, this idiot’s still roaming the streets….what’s the police scared of?...will his arrest cause massive insurrection``

Thackrey doesn`t have any support base outside Maharashtra, Bombay to be precise. And that too amongst illiterate and fanatical people. There is one thing scary about him. His loyal supporters are fanatical in nature. They may do anything, yes ``anything``, if he is arrested. He has a big nuisance value. Call it our impotence or whatever you wish, nobody dares to bell this thug. He is like a political mafia who has grown just too powerful to be undone easily.

wholly-precious-you

Actually BJP leaders may not be as impotent as we think. Vajpayee has refused squarely to let VHP construct temple when the matter is in court. A public interest litigation has also been put in the Supreme Court to keep Thackrey`s men from harassing teens on Valentine`s day. Victory to lovebirds. I must congratulate Vajpayee and his team for keeping the secular fabric of the country intact in their rule of 3 years.

Akash:

``And that too amongst illiterate and fanatical people.``

Ignorance is bliss! I wish it was so but Thakreys power base is in middle and lower middle class Marathi speaking people of Mumbai. They are typically blue-collar or lower white collar workers and very definitely not illiterates!!!

re Akash #22

``Thackrey doesn`t have any support base outside Maharashtra,Bombay to be precise. And that too amongst illiterate and fanatical people.``

This is not entirely correct. I have known a number of educated and otherwise rational people who support Shiv Sena (and by extension, Thackrey) in Bombay. People like Pramod Nawalkar, Sudhir Joshi, Suresh Prabhu or even Pritish Nandy don`t exactly fit the mould of illiterate and fanatic. We might want to believe that Shiv Sena`s support base comprises only of `lumpen proletariat` but the fact remains that Shiv Sena has considerable support amongst middle class maharashtrians in Bombay.

good to see a nambiar contribution after quite a while. and it doesn`t disappoint. very interesting insight into the way these kind of people operate, though there were a few hindi words i didn`t understand at all :(

shandana

the stupidity, or shall i say a pathetic reach for parity, of some pakistanis continues to amaze me...of what relevance is thackeray to pakistan?...what has he done in pakistan?..NOTHING...or are you people just looking for someone to equate with your retards who launch attacks in other countries? (from yousef ramzi in new york to 100s in india to taliban-buddies in afghnaistan)...

thackeray cannot be equated with islamic terrorists from pakistan and the middle-east...thackeray is a criminal who should be tried for crimes in india...his crimes are committed in india and against indians...he is not an international terrorist...

MastRam:

“We might want to believe that Shiv Sena`s support base comprises only of `lumpen proletariat` but the fact remains that Shiv Sena has considerable support amongst middle class maharashtrians in Bombay”

….hmmm….i guess that does make it harder…but you have to tackle these extremists by the gonads…a lot of nuisance value but mostly hot air and false bravado more than anything else…. ….just look at qazi & co….

semipreciousme - ``will his arrest cause massive insurrection?…``

yes unfortunately it will be another reason for very violent communal clashes. Almost everything is nowadays!!

It is absolutely true that the educated masses support them. It is common knowledge (now - but chilling nonetheless) that during elections - the party members actually go around marking houses based on the religion of the owners/occupants - and distribute flyers - showing why the hindus MUST vote for the BJP in the upcoming elections. These are only left at houses occupied by Hindus and not by any other community.

aicha

Plenty of grist for the mill coming up -- Sant (baba) Valenteen`s day is fast approaching --- time for the Thakeray brigade to start giving us moral lectures on right and wrong.

I talk to the Bombayites here, and they by and large support Thackeray. The ususal refrain is that Thackeray is evil but it is a necessary evil required to counter the Muslim fundamentalists who are a greater evil. Even otherwise rational and educated people (Bombayites) tend to think of Tackeray as some sort of savior of the city against an Islamic goonda onslaught, which to be honest, I don`t understand.

Shiv Sena may have supporters etc outside Bombay, but the political influence is negligible. In Maharashtra, the sugar belt area of Manmad etc is heavily Congress dominated, with the BJP having made recent gains. Similar story in Vidarbha, Konkan belt etc. The only area outside Bombay where Shiv Sena presence exists is Nasik, Shirdi etc etc, which are close to Bombay.

Outside Maharastra, I don`t think Shiv Sena has a single MP, though their slogan (Garv sey kaho hum Hindu Hain) can now occaisionally be seen uo north as well.

``Shiv Sena is the true representative of Hindustani people and Thackray is the best leader Hindus ever had.``

This statement, made by a Paki Muslim, should be publicised among all Indian Muslims as a true representation of the love and affection Paki Muslims have for Indian Muslims. This statement is living proof that a Paki Muslim is happiest when innocent non Paki Muslims are slaughtered. I wonder why Paki Muslims were so unhappy when the throats of their own kind were being slit in Afghanistan?

Reading the posts of my democratic, secular and progressives Hindu brethren -- against the Hindu Talibani vermins like Shive Sena, RSS, Bajrang dal and that scum of the earth VHP -- fills my heart with pride and joy.

What my father fought for was not in vain.

hasan

Actually, in my previous post, ``Paki Muslims`` should be replaced by

`` Paki Muslims who are Mohajirs of UP and descendants of Bhangis, and whose Grandfathers was given a boot up the Arse by Punjabi Hindus, and whose families are regularly slapped around by Punjabi Pak Rangers on the streets of Karachi, and who love to loiter around Chowk making obnoxious comments to prove their non existent manhood, and whose Chowk handles are inspired by lousy Hindi pictures starring Govinda and directed by David Dhawan such as Anari #1, Coolie #1 etc``

Mastram

``We might want to believe that Shiv Sena`s support base comprises only of `lumpen proletariat` but the fact remains that Shiv Sena has considerable support amongst middle class maharashtrians in Bombay.

``

No Sir, what you call support is, at best, a helpless realization that he is a ``necessary evil``. No educated man, whether he is a Bombayite or not, can defend the actions of Thackrey with a straight face. In the beginning of his career he collected a bunch of ruffians and harassed South Indians in the name of marathi chauvinism. Then he needed another sentimental issue to expand his base. This time he used ``communal agenda(I wont call it Hinduism)`` to do this. Afterall, if he such a staunch Hindu, why did he persecute his own Hindu bretheren, the South Indians. Believe me, he is neither a Hindu nor a Marathi, just a cunning mafia leader who wants to rule over people. He opposes ``Valentine`s day`` in the name of cultural corruption but his own son and relatives invite Michael Jackson, the paedophile, for a stage program so that they can gobble 4 crores from that show in their pocket. Actually the real story is that the Archies refused to bribe him and he therefore ordered his goons to loot Archies shops and harass people on Valentine`s day. All Indians Hindus or Muslims, and especially Hindus should see the true colors of this person and teach him a lesson.

Sincerely

A UPite

Stuka:

``This statement, made by a Paki Muslim, should be publicised among all Indian Muslims as a true representation of the love and affection Paki Muslims have for Indian Muslims. This statement is living proof that a Paki Muslim is happiest when innocent non Paki Muslims are slaughtered. I wonder why Paki Muslims were so unhappy when the throats of their own kind were being slit in Afghanistan?``

....let`s not over-generalize, please..

Manufacturing believers

The RSS runs a network of schools country wide Anjali Mody looks at what is taught there.

Talk about the Indian variety of Madrassah educated elites!

http://www.hindu.com/stories/2002021000061200.htm

ON A cold January morning, the Union HRD Minister, Murli Manohar Joshi, told a captive audience of restive high school students from 12 institutions run by Vidya Bharati (the RSS` education wing) about the changes his Government had made to school syllabuses and textbooks. Pradeep (not his real name), a class 11 student from GLT Saraswati Shishu Mandir, in South Delhi who was there, summarised what he understood of the Minister`s message: ``He told us that although some people say that Lord Ramachandra never existed, that he did... He produced him in front of us... No... no... that`s only a joke... he said that there is this river which people say never really existed, but he has scientifically proven that it did exist, that Lord Ramachandra was born on its banks... so he also existed.``

The strange logic of this deduction would not have bothered the Minister. Nor, perhaps, Pradeep`s teachers. For they, like him and his classmates, are drilled in `sanskriti gyan` or `cultural knowledge` based on a series of workbooks devised by Vidya Bharati. Last year, the `history` section of Pradeep`s Sanskriti Gyan Pareeksha workbook would have told him: ``In Faizabad district of Uttar Pradesh where present day Ayodhya stands, there on the banks of the Sarayu river was ancient Ayodhya, capital of Suryavanshi Kshatriya kings. Manu and Maharani Shatroopa were reborn in Ayodhya as Raja Dasharatha and Kaushalya, and in their home sakshaat Narayana took incarnation (as Lord Ram). According to astrologers and the puranas the time of Shri Ram is believed to be around 8,86,000 years ago.``

This lesson in `history` is part of the `national education` that Vidya Bharati`s 19,741 schools around the country impart to their 24,00,000 students. Vidya Bharati is, says its head Dinanath Batra, one of the ``organisations through which the Sangh`s vichardhara or way of thinking is propagated``. Its aim is to provide an education which will turn out ``self-less citizens... suffused with the spirit of Hindutva``.

The first Vidya Bharati school was set up in 1952. Since then growth has been exponential. In just five years from 1998, the number went up from 13,000 to 19,741. These are by and large fee paying schools, started with private donations. Mr. Batra says Vidya Bharati has neither received, nor sought, financial support from the Government to run its schools. At Vidya Bharati`s schools across the country there is much talk of `sanskara`. This broadly includes prayers in Sanskrit, the Saraswati Vandana, teachers being called `acharya` and students who touch their feet. Respect for parents established by touching their feet. Some schools run tulsi planting campaigns as part of `environmental awareness`. Mr. Batra believes that it is the `atmosphere` of a school that makes the `difference`. With uncharacteristic flourish he declares: ``walls should speak, stones should sing``. The walls of Vidya Bharati`s schools do speak, to those willing to listen. They are lined with calendar art images of `mahapurush` — RSS gurus, M.S. Golwalkar and Baliram Hedgewar, Shankaracharya, Dayananda Saraswati, Vivekananda, Shivaji, Rana Pratap, Subhash Chandra Bose, Chandrashekhar Azad, sometimes Sardar Patel, but not Mahtama Gandhi.

A curious panoply of greats given that the majority of schools run by Vidya Bharati — variously called Saraswati Mandirs, Gita Niketans, Vivekananda Vidyalayas across the country — are affiliated either to the CBSE or the local state education boards, which still accept Mahatma Gandhi`s pre-eminence in the history of the nation. Mr. Batra dismisses this observations saying: ``We publish many pictures including a very beautiful one of Gandhi.``

Pictures apart, how do those who run Vidya Bharati schools balance their version of the truth with the facts and figures in the prescribed syllabuses and textbooks? Sitting in front of a life size portrait of Golwalkar, R.P. Vishvendu, Principal of the Shri Sanatan Dharma Saraswati Bal Mandir, in New Delhi`s Punjabi Bagh neighbourhood, admits it is a tricky business: ``When you are teaching a child to distinguish between good and bad... you tell them Shivaji was good... then how do you tell them that Auranzeb was also good... that there was a battle between two good people?... similarly with Subhash Chandra Bose... and Gandhi...`` He adds, ``if you pour water over concrete it simply flows off... But if you keep dripping water at the same spot then after sometime there will be a dent even in concrete... that is how we work...``

Clearly, Mr. Vishvendu hopes that the drip-drip of a compulsory regime of Sanskriti Gyan Pareeksha (the workbooks to which he contributes) from classes 4 to 12, with their own version of history, will do the trick. Especially since two-thirds of the over 70,000 teachers in Vidya Bharati`s schools have been `qualified` to teach the truth according to these books through a three-stage exam specially designed for them.

Sandeepji, the young clear-eyed history teacher at the Mata Ramrakhi Sanatan Dharma Saraswati Bal Mandir(MRSD), just north of Delhi University, whose students are drawn from the post-Partition resettlement colonies of north and west Delhi, has a far more sophisticated method: ``I present the truth as written in the textbooks. The textbook for instance says `In the end the Congress accepted the partition of India`. I tell my students to go home and talk to their grandparents who experienced Partition about whether there was any need to accept Partition, I then have a discussion in the classroom. And through the stories of their families and friends they understand that although Congress accepted partition it was not necessary.``

Teachers at Vidya Bharati schools are happy to share their teaching techniques. Mrs. Kulsreshta, the highly regarded English teacher at the Punjabi Bagh Shishu Mandir, says that ``in every lesson you can draw out the impact of Indian culture... from the Gita. I point out examples of this... I tell my students that even in this foreign author`s writing you can see the influence of the Gita.``

Veena Khanna, the Hindi teacher at MRSD, says, ``It is so hard to remove the wrong ideas from their minds... to teach them that it was not the Muslims who built the Qutub Minar, that Muslims peeled off the sculptures of gods and covered them with Arabic script... Prithviraj Chauhan`s sister used to look at Yamuna maiya from the top of the minar.`` With great feeling, and no sense of irony she pronounced, ``If you repeat a lie ten times it becomes the truth. It is even happening today``. At least in Model Town the lessons have had their impact. In sanskritised Hindi students of class 9 and 10 at MRSD deliver well-rehearsed lines. Manish: ``They said Hindus were cow eaters. This is wrong.`` Gaurav: ``They said Aryans came from outside. This must be changed.`` Neha: ``They have called Guru Gobind Singh a looter, when he gave his life for the nation.``

``You mean Guru Tegh Bahadur, don`t you,`` corrects Om Prakash, the principal who runs his school of 300-odd students from a building that also houses the local sanatan dharma temple. A soft-spoken man, he is very open about his long connection with the RSS. It was as a child at an RSS shakha in the 1950s that he learnt of the ``wrongs`` being perpetrated by modern school education. Before he joined the Vidya Bharati school network he was an RSS pracharak. Even today he keeps his eyes open for bright students whom he can point out to the local shakha as ``worth working on``.

A more thorough-going venture of ``propagating the RSS vichardhara through education`` is Sewa Dham Vidya Mandir.

A free residential school run under the guidance of Vidya Bharati by another RSS-affiliated NGO, Sewa Bharati, funded primarily by donations from the Sangh`s NRI supporters. Located on the Delhi-Uttar Pradesh border the school, with 285 students from 21 States, mostly from Scheduled Tribe and Scheduled Caste backgrounds, has results that many fee paying schools would envy.

The CBSE schools football trophy sits proudly among other sporting awards in the Principal, O.P. Sharma`s office. School exam results displayed on the notice board declare over 50 per cent first classes, and only a tiny number of thirds.

Mr. Sharma hopes that the school will produce future administrators, who will ``do work to improve their districts having learnt their sanskars here``. The school regime is a far more rigorous and unequivocal induction into the Sangh`s way of life than the Vidya Bharati schools in cities. Shakha attendance, complete with exercise and intellectual `discussion`, is built into the school`s tough regimen that begins at 4.30 in the morning and ends at 10 p.m., with television viewing permitted only on Sunday.

Mr. Sharma says the school has an open atmosphere and students can `think and speak freely` on any subject. They have a 10,000-book library, carefully selected to include books that ``speak of gauravata ki batein not gulami ki batein``. He says they may have to be taught, because of the existing textbooks, that the Taj Mahal was a mausoleum built by Shah Jahan, but there are enough books in the library, including many by P.N. Oak, which will tell them that it was not a mausoleum but a Hindu temple.

Mr. Sharma, whose academic discipline is economics, illustrates the focus of teaching in his school. He says, ``for example economics books tell us that India is a poor country... we will not teach this. We will teach children that India is a very rich country... it has had a green revolution... it has the best record in milk production... the best cows in Denmark have gone from India.``

Sewa Dham has its particular problems. It is not so simple, as it is at an average Vidya Bharati school, to assume that the students will find the fact that ``Hindus ate beef`` objectionable. Many of their students come from communities that do eat beef. Mr. Sharma who is something of a cow protection missionary and has a cow and calf tethered near his rooms on the school campus says, ``Christians working in areas like Arunachal Pradesh have said beef is the most nutritious... we have to convince these children otherwise... we tell them that the cow is our mother... that gods reside inside her... that breeze from the direction in which a cow turns her head is pure... that there is no other treatment for cancer but go-mooth (cow urine).``

Outside the formal school system, the Sangh`s affiliates are also involved in a variety of `educational activity`. Vidya Bharati, according to Mr. Batra, is to set up `Sanskar Kendras` in poor neighbourhoods and slums. Beyond city slums, he says, they are focussing on ``sensitive areas`` — the Northeast, Jammu and Kashmir, Bastar, the Bihar-Nepal border, with ``50 centres for primitive tribes``.

Mr. Batra explains the motivation: ``Take the Northeast, you can hear the voice of disintegration... there are a lot of Bangladeshi immigrants. These are areas in which Christian missionaries are very active.``

The Bihar-Nepal border, border areas with Pakistan? ``They are full of madrassas funded from abroad... Muslims must be taught that they are born in this country, nursed by this country and must live for the country.`` Bastar? ``It has naxalwadis and vanvasis.``

`Vanvasi` is the Sangh`s catch-all term for adivasis, devised to fit its thesis that far from being the original inhabitants of the subcontinent forced to the margins by later arrivals from central Asia, they are lost tribes of Hindus waiting to be reawakened.

Another Sangh affiliate, Ekal Vidyalaya Foundation, is already involved in running schools in adivasi areas with the hope that they will be ``awakened to their Hindu heritage``. The foundation runs some 7,000 one-teacher schools in ``remote areas where Government schools do not exist or are not being run properly``.

The three-hours-a-day school is designed to deliver reading and numeracy skills, `general knowledge` no different from the material in Vidya Bharati`s Sanskriti Gyan workbooks, `sanskara` — like Sanskrit prayers, touching the feet of parents — exercise and personal health and hygiene.

Seema Ajgaonkar, co-coordinator of the foundations Expert Committee, speaks with a missionary spirit about the activities of the school which ``unite the village youth``, give them a chance to throw off the ``dependence created by Government`` and ``awaken in them the knowledge that they are not adivasis but vanvasi Hindus``.

Asim Heyat #39

If this is an indian madrassah, then I dont think we are in trouble at all.

From the article we learn that students are:

(1) learning English

(2) Competing well in public exams

(3) include students from ``non cow-eating`` backgrounds

(4) not taught to hate any particular community.

Like all religous schools these students are taught that their particular traditions are ``real``. Rama, the hindu god-king, truly lived at a certain time etc.

How is this different from believing that Jesus Christ was a historical figure? There is no historical evidence for this, nor is there any historical evidence for any part of the old testament. I would suggest you visit a Christian school and review their curriculum.

I won`t comment on Islamic beliefs, except that a whole lot of them seem to depend on whether the prophet did or did not do certain things. Sounds pretty irrational to me, but I have a feeling most muslims would disagree and view these issues differently.

How is the ideology of these schools differ from traditional christian and muslim religous schools? Leaving aside, of course, that conversion is a key part of christianity and islam but plays a very small part in hindu discourse.

semipreciousme: (God !! pls choose a smaller handle..)

``....let`s not over-generalize, please..``

ERM, UH ...You`re right ofcourse. I actually had that thought on my own as well. Please refer to my post # 35, which I posted right after the one you are talking about. One has a habit of losing one`s temper and shooting of a post, to be filled with a general sense of regret and a desire to make amends.

I was unaware of this good news. Now that rogue Thackeray will not be able to cars vote in civic polls. Good work Election Commission of India and VICTORY TO INDIAN DEMOCRACY.

http://www.timesofindia.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=555763

Summary: ``Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray, who was disenfranchised by the Election Commission (EC) for six years in 1995 could not cast his ballot for the prestigious BMC polls on Sunday, despite expiry of the ban period.

``

Re : Pmishra2 on Madrassh system in India

Dear Sir,

Your impassioned appeal to support these purveyors of falsehood and hatred is indeed well noted. However, petty jingoism aside, your rush to defend these very madrassahs shows one thing that you are trying to bury your head in the sand in so far as being objective and ``truth`` oriented. I would have expected no less from an indian fellow whose sole purpose in coming here to Chowk is to possibly cast aspersions and slanber our nation;and yet one whoo does not even have an iota of impartiality to condemn the very wrongs being perpetrated in his own back yard in the name of an ``education``. Notwithstanding Pakistan`s history of poor leaders, one thing stands out, and that is the fact that we have never had such blatant bigots as rulers as Vajpayee who proudly associates himself as swayem Savek of RSS, which is clearly a fascist organisation and immulators of Hitler et al. These people are so self deluded not to mention oblivious of truth and objtivity that they would modify the truth and the history to suggest that the Taj Mahal was a Hindu Temple. Indeed, the goop being dished out at these places of learning to the infertile minds shall result in a class of people who shall not only be more biassed and bigoted but also anti Pakistan to their own detriment. Surely you do not think that the false ideologies being taught at your 2000 odd schools is going to provide another Gandhi!

Learning English is well and good, but learning a jingoims driven version of history when the so called facts being taught by your RSS goons can be refuted by any and every ``white`` historian is hardly productive.

You may continue to live and prosper in your ``democratic`` state as long as the Hindus are left to run the country as per the Sangh Parivar.Good luck to you my friend, and may your see the folly of your reasoning.

Asim

Re: Harish et al

Has anyone considered the fact that it was a Jew who killed Rabin; a Muslim who killed Sadat; a Christian who killed Martin Luther King, Jr. and a Hindu who killed Gandhi...

Let us stop talking about ``cross-religious intolerance/terror``, because we have done more to malign our religions than any outsider could have done. Religion, in itself, is not bad; rather, it is we who have given it a bad name by our own misdeeds.

Ciao

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: Ferozk

{{Religion, in itself, is not bad; rather, it is we who have given it a bad name by our own misdeeds.}}

the nuclear bomb, in itself, is not bad either; it is the people who drop it on others. ditto for guns, poison gas and the AIDS virus...so let`s keep all those things around and pray that people improve?? or better to get rid of them so fools can`t use them to hurt themselves or others?...

Asim Hayat #44

As a product of a extremist islamist state ruled by a military dictator, you have excellent credentials to carry the message of democracy to the world.

That aside, here is a simple request: produce from the facts in the *news report * (taken from an excellent indian newspaper) three statements that are hateful or reprehensible. I am not referring to your various beliefs that Vajpayee is a form of Hitler etc. I am referring to the actual contents of the news article you included in your message.

One point I had made in my message was that true ``believers`` accept all kinds of ``facts`` about their religous traditions. Christian belief includes ``facts`` far more startling than the idea that Rama lived in Ayodhya a trillion years ago. I wont bother you with my opinion of islamic beliefs, as you will certainly construe it as a personal attack. If a hindu religous school teaches such beliefs, well, its their problem. Needless to say all this subtlety is water off your duck back.....

Stuka:

``semipreciousme: (God !! pls choose a smaller handle..)``

...good exercise for your fingers....but if you insist on being lazy, semi`ll do...

re: # 35

...that`s better...

re: Ferozk # 45

Feroze, in EACH case, the murderer was driven by a blind hatred of the ``OTHER`` group.

Yigal Amir, the Jew, who killed Rabin, did so because Rabin wanted to make peace with the Palestinians.

Khaled Islambouli, the Muslim, who kiled Sadat, did so because Sadat was trying to bury the hatchet with the Israelis.

Nathuram Godse, the Hindu, killed Gandhi because Gandhi sought to advocate the cause of Muslims.

James Earl Ray, the white Christian, killed the black Christian Martin Luther King.

The Jew loved all Jews. The Muslim loved all Muslims. The Hindu loved all Hindus. The white Christian loved all white Christians.

Except, none of them loved the simple Human Being.

Enormous love for `one`s own` and enormous hatred for `the other` are as closely tied as the two sides of a dollar bill.

Both have the same name - fascism. And Cruelty and Murder are fascism`s natural children.

dost-mittar #41
Without holding any brief for the `enlightenment of India`s middle class`, it needs to be pointed out that Manmohan Singh while campaigning last time asserted that his party the CongressI was not responsible for the 84 Sikh riots and that the RSS was. This created a major uproar and the riot effectees staged public protests against him. If he is as deserving of support as his professional competence seems to imply, he should stop peddling blatant lies on a sensitive issue like other politicians do.

Well, I guess I was off the mark when I had predicted that the Shiv Sena goons will restrict themselves only to giving moral lectures:

We will bash up Valentine`s Day couples: Sena

http://headlines.sify.com/563news1.html

Congress gets initial lead in Maharashtra civic polls

Press Trust of India

Mumbai, February 11: Congress is forging ahead in the elections for the various municipal corporations in Maharashtra, according to results available so far.

In Solapur, Congress has bagged seven seats followed by BJP winning six seats, while Shiv Sena won three and NCP two, sources in the state election Commission said in Mumbai.

Among the results available so far from the orange city Nagpur, Congress has won three seats.

In the neighbouring Thane, NCP has bagged four and Shiv Sena and BJP shared one seat each, sources said.

In Akola, BJP bagged one seat while the a local front bagged five seats and Bharipa Bahujan Mahasangh three.

In Amrawati municipal corporation polls, Congress has won four seats as against two seats by Shiv Sena.

Meanwhile, according to trends available for the Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation (BMC Brihanmumbai Mahanagar Palika) polls, Shiv Sena is leading in 14 seats, followed by Congress in nine while BJP and NCP have established leads in two seats and one seat respectively.

dost-mittar #54
http://www.indiainfo.com/news/Sep-2-99/2di25.html
http://www.the-week.com/99sep05/daily.htm#34

``..RSS was involved in `84 anti-Sikh riots
The Congress candidate for the South Delhi Lok Sabha seat Manmohan Singh, has said that the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS), was actively involved in the anti-Sikh carnage in the capital 1984. Talking to reporters at the Press Club of India, Singh called the 1984 riots ``a black spot and the saddest event``. He asserted that the Congress had no role in it, he claimed. ``It should not have happened.`` He said that his winning the Padma Vibushan in the same year was proof enough that the Congress had no role in the carnage. The first information reports lodged at police stations in Delhi show that RSS men were involved in the riots, Singh said. ..``

----
Here it is implied that he lost mainly because his own party considered him `too strong` a candidate!

http://www.expressindia.com/fe/daily/19991007/fpo07076.html

``.. As the impression gained ground in the party that he would have greater acceptibility as the Prime Minister in case the Congress romped home, there were subtle efforts to scuttle his chances of victory. There were tell-tale signs of the party leadership not extending him the physical wherewithal for electioneering. Singh himself admitted before the people that he had no funds to fight back his opponent, BJP`s Vijay Kumar Malhotra.

Singh created media wave in Delhi with newspapers headlining his winning chances from the prestigious South Delhi constituency. This put Vijay Kumar Malhotra in his toes and the BJP-RSS cadres swung into action to counter the formidable Congress candidate.

Among a few supporters of Singh was Delhi Chief Minister Sheila Dixit who tried to help him in his campaign. But that was about all. The impression sought to be created around 10 Janpath was that whoever helped Singh was bound to incur the wrath of Sonia Gandhi. They may or may not be correct. But it had its repercussions.

According to party sources close to Singh, the former world bank economist realised the odds towards the later part of his campaigning. He then went about his job virtually alone with a handful of academic supporters. The party cadres , indeed, had distanced themselves.

Singh made one mistake on the penultimate day of his campaigning which, according to sources, proved costly. Addressing mediapersons at the press club here, Singh blamed the RSS for the 1984 anti-Sikh riots in Delhi and elsewhere in the aftermath of Indira Gandhi`s assassination. The BJP cadres exploited it to the hilt and managed to alienate a sizeable section of Sikh voters from Manmohan Singh. Singh sought to correct himself the next day by issuing a statement that he had not entirely blamed the RSS for the riots and that he had only referred to the FIR then which mentioned about the RSS. But it was too late. The damage was already done...``

Hindu carving knives are out!

The writer is a well known journalist

hkburki@hotmail.com

A new India is abroad. A muscular Hindu republic, overbearing, intransigent. It seeks to impose absolute domination over its South Asian neighbours and to assert itself as the big power. A bloodthirsty bellicosity, reflecting the transformation, accompanies the massive deployment of its forces on Pakistan`s borders. And it demands compliance with its wishes, or else.

Atal Behari Vajpayee and his RSS colleagues deserve credit for their candour. For decades, the Congress Party and its camp-followers had concealed with a smokescreen of secularism an essentially Brahmanic dispensation. It was a perfect rendering of the old saying: Ram, Ram, on the lips, a knife under the armpit. The BJP leaders have shed the mask of hypocrisy and come out in the open with a strident Hindu agenda. Ram, Ram is done with, knives are out. Little wonder, Kuldip Nayar, the veteran Indian columnist, has been driven to lament bitterly that communalism was now rife in the land of Gandhi.

Despite all the mayhem, Delhi`s designs have been frustrated thus far. Thanks primarily to General Musharraf`s firm response in the field, backed by vigorous, principled diplomacy. No one is indispensable and that goes for Pervez Musharraf, too. One shudders to think, however, what might have befallen the beleaguered country had it been blessed with the services of one of those fake democrats.

The Indians have been thwarted in the first round. Their forces are still poised on the border, however. Sabre-rattling and brinkmanship continue to be the predominant motifs. The big bully may, in fact, make a lunge. It is in the nature of the beast.

Not many people are left in this country with direct personal experience of inter-action with high caste Hindus in pre-partition India. The number of those in authority who have been exposed to the inner workings of the Indian mind in the turbulent years since the independence, has also shrunk. Fortunately, Pervez Musharraf`s Foreign Minister is thoroughly conversant with India`s deviousness and hegemonic aims.

There is no dearth of expert analysts, however. Brought up mostly on a diet of Indian statements and periodic pious declarations, they thrash about in shoals of ignorance, cocksure and assertive. All manner of weird panaceas and fanciful compromises flow from their prolix pens. Adopt Pakistan first policy, forget Kashmir is one prize exhibit. Remove the provocation and the Lalajis would leave us alone.

It looks pretty neat in print and original. There is just one small flaw. It is oblivious of Indian ruling elite`s mindset and barely concealed agenda. You can ditch the Kashmiris, yes, but it won`t buy you any relief, much less safety. For Delhi Kashmir is a nuisance, and it can remove the irritant at any time. All it needs to do is to let the Kashmiris exercise the autonomy already conceded in the Indian Constitution. No, in Delhi`s book, there is only one problem: Pakistan. Its very existence is taken as an insult to Mother India.

The BJP makes no bones about its plan to impose on all citizens, including Muslims and Christians, Hindu culture. That is one short step away from total absorption. It is in an old mantra, long familiar to Muslims, and also identified by a great Mexican writer. Octavio Paz who served as his country`s ambassador in Delhi for several years, noted Hinduism`s immense power of assimilation. ``Like an enormous metaphysical boa, Hinduism slowly and relentlessly digests foreign cultures, gods, languages, and beliefs.``

High-caste Hindus nurse a bitter, deep-seated grudge against the Muslims for having ruled over them a thousand years. That the boa constrictor has failed to digest the Muslims must rankle even more. Now that India has achieved great economic strength and assembled a juggernaut with nuclear teeth, the Hindus want to settle all old scores at one go. Here and now, Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent notwithstanding.

The weekly TV programme, ``Question Time India`` is an eye-opener. The panelists as well as the 150 selected questioners, predominantly middles class Hindus, have been baying for Pakistan`s blood for months. They think they are already a Super Power. If the US can attack Afghanistan to destroy terrorists why can`t India cross the Line of Control and do the same? No cricket with Pakistan they scream in unison. What defies comprehension is the craven attitude of Pakistan`s very martial cricket establishment. Why must it keep begging for fixtures? If the Indians don`t want to play, let them go to Timbuktu.

TV channels, the print media with some honourable exceptions like ``The Hindu``, even Bollywood films have all been carrying on a hysterical campaign against Pakistan, demanding condign punishment. One leading pundit of strategy has boldly gone forth to propose that Pakistan`s nuclear bluff must be called, as if it was a game of cards. Defence Minister George Fernandes, perhaps already in the jaws of the metaphysical boa, has boasted that India can absorb the first nuclear strike. Even as bluster, it borders on madness.

Clearly, the Indians think they have Pakistan at their mercy and can realise their dream of sucking it back into the lap of Mother India. Nehru and Patel had tried to snuff it out at its very birth. Nehru`s daughter came very close to destroying it in 1971. And she thought she had cut what remained of it down to size. She had overlooked the political genius and resolution of a man called Zulfikar Ali Bhutto. The dynamic leader, still much reviled in his homeland, picked up the pieces, restored Pakistan to robust health and launched a full-scale nuclear programme. It is time, the General stopped foul-mouthing the already much-wronged man and acknowledge publicly his contribution.

Another bid to fix Pakistan was made in 1998 with a series of nuclear tests. A K Advani, the arch Hindu revanchist, promptly declared that Pakistan was back in the situation it faced in December 1971, thereby hinting at the prospects of another surrender. Somehow the Indians concluded that Pakistan lacked nuclear capability or at least the will to demonstrate it. They were not too far off the mark. But for the military`s insistence, Nawaz Sharif would have obliged.

Then came a reversion to the Ram, Ram ruse. They worked on Nawaz, buying his sugar and offering economic openings for his family business. There was a well-orchestrated yatra by Lala Vajpayee to Lahore, signing a meaningless Lahore Declaration. To their dismay, however, Nawaz Sharif`s bid to become the all-powerful Caliph was nipped in the nick of time. In inter-state relations, one has rarely come across the kind of venom the Indians spewed against Pakistan for changing its government, purely its own internal affair.

Atalji was in good company. Bill Clinton, let us not forget, was equally incensed. The US President immediately imposed sanctions. And on his way back from his triumphant visit to India, he stopped over in Islamabad four hours simply to heap insults on Gen Musharraf. Those who claim that these gentlemen were acting in defence of democracy need to have their heads examined. Bill and Atalji were both furious because they had been deprived of a protÈgÈ they had cultivated assiduously. The leader of Pakistan`s sham democracy was to implement their agendas.

Some Pakistani scribes, more authoritative than yours truly by far, have been taking frequent swipes at Pervez Musharraf for his handling of the post-September 11 situation. One telephone call from George Bush and the country`s sovereignty was compromised. That is one charge against the General. Even more scathing is the question: What happened to the much vaunted deterrent?



One can`t help wondering in which geological stratum these gentles reside. What. Planet of the Apes? Who had ever suggested that Pakistan`s two dozen bombs were a deterrent against Washington? In the heat of self-righteous indignation, it is forgotten that Pakistan was a virtually bankrupt state and already under a dire threat from the east. How could President Musharraf risk denying staging facilities and over-flights to a wounded Super Power ready to pulverize all opposition to its war of revenge against terrorists?

Pakistan`s participation in the international coalition in which India, incidentally, is a more than eager partner, has exposed the country to certain dangers. It has brought, however, significant and much-needed immediate economic benefits. No less important, it has assured Western diplomatic support against a rampant India.

There is an unfortunate dimension to this latest jigsaw of international equations. The Western Powers in general and the United States in particular, do not understand or do not want to know, the true nature and aspirations of a resurgent India.

One of Washington`s long-standing obsessions is the containment of China. When Nehru`s forward policy resulted in a thorough drubbing by a battle-hardened People`s Liberation Army in 1962, Kennedy rushed to Panditji`s assistance. Arms for six mountain divisions were gifted and several ordnance factories followed. Now, once more, George Bush wants to counter China`s growing economic clout and military muscle. Agreements to transfer state of the art defence technology were signed by the Indian Defence Minister in Washington last month. Strategic cooperation is on the anvil. Since India already enjoys full access to Russian weaponry, it seems well set to buying its way into the super league.

In seeking a counter-weight to China, already a near Super Power, the United States will end up facing two Super States. For Washington does not seem to realise that India would want to operate as a world power with goals of its own and not as an American sidekick.

What would be the fate of Pakistan? Islamabad could throw itself at the mercy of Delhi, as some smart alecks amongst us are already hinting. In that case, Pakistanis must be prepared to accept the status of virtual untouchables, for the Hindu upper crust is not going to abandon its caste system any time soon. Even after three millennia of near serfdom, 200 million Dalits are still struggling to free themselves. There is an honourable alternative available, and it is rather Spartan. Maintain a minimum creditable deterrent, both in conventional forces and nuclear weapons. And, simultaneously, acquire economic strength. Not too tall an order, but it demands dedication.

Asim Hayat #56

In which other country would a mainstream newspaper publish articles written by ``well known journalists,`` full of such bigotry against followers of another religion?

Ram, Ram, on the lips, a knife under the armpit.

Personal experience of inter-action with high caste Hindus.

Inner workings of the Indian mind.

Remove the provocation and the Lalajis.

``Like an enormous metaphysical boa, Hinduism.

That the boa constrictor.

Hindus baying for Pakistan`s blood.

Defence Minister in the jaws of the metaphysical boa.

Lala Vajpayee.

``Liberals`` of which other country would post such articles on a public forum?

Re: Asim Hayat #56:

Just curious..... but is it necessary as a Pakistani to publicly announce your love/admiration/ hero-worship of one of your great leaders? Case in point: YLH and Jinnah. But at least YLH is on sound ground. This joker actually counts Bhutto Senior as one of his heroes!!! A man who led his country through a horrendous Civil conflict, not to mention a humiliating international war soon after, who was later overthrown violently and executed by his own countrymen for treason, is now a hero! Yaar, you guys better tell us which of your leaders is worth mocking. Till now it`s only Benazir, who for some reason is easy meat(I suspect it`s because she`s a woman but my opinion as a Hindian don`t count). Mushy is fun to make fun of, but Pakistanis get needlessly upset when we do that. Why can`t you be more like us and hate your leaders the way we do?

Asim Hayat #56

Thanks for publishing this piece of hate speech. It is similar to the kind of articles the nazis wrote about Jews amd may even be a rewrite of one of those articles. The most amazing thing is that it is published in a major pak national newspaper on the OpEd page. You will never find its equivalent in any indian newspaper.

It shows that *educated * pakistanis are brought up to think of hindus as sub-human (or super-human!) but defintely not as plain human beings. The really sad thing is that these thoughts are coming from pakistanis with some education, though perhaps education has a different meaning in Pakistan. The final irony is that this poster has previously potrayed himself as a great democrat and broad minded thinker on this message board!

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...Are you certain that it is he who said this and not some of his underlings? ...``

Yes, indeed it was him. The electorate is not all that dumb after all.

re: asim hayat

{The writer is a well known journalist}

...yeah, that`s why his name isn`t attached...

you guys are pathetic...get a backbone and an identity...living in perpetual paranoia and inferiority complex viz-a-viz India isn`t becoming of a sovereign nation...

Oh, the Heartache! They Want Cupid Banished

By SOMINI SENGUPTA



The Associated Press

A party member smashed an advertisement for a Valentine celebration.

The Associated Press

Facing threats from a radical Hindu political party over Valentine`s Day, card-shop owners like Kalyanji M. Chheda have produced ``Love Day`` cards, with no mention of Cupid or St. Valentine. The party, Shiv Sena, views Cupid as a symbol of the West`s corrupting influence.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=170510





MUMBAI, Feb. 11 — In the Indian imagination, this has long been the place where women could wear short skirts and dance with men. where lovers could take in the lights along Marine Drive and life could be like the movies.

Today, Bombay is called Mumbai, and there is a red rage brewing over Valentine`s Day.

The Shiv Sena, the radical Hindu political party that is a powerful force in the city and state governments, sees in Cupid the very avatar of Western culture, a symbol of its corrupting influence over traditional Indian society.

Last year, supporters of Shiv Sena — literally, the Army of Shivaji, the 17th-century Hindu king who warred against several Muslim rulers — stormed shops that carried Valentine`s Day greeting cards, overturned display racks and made bonfires on the streets.

This year, Sena leaders issued another death warrant of sorts against Valentine`s Day, calling it a frivolous occasion that sullies Indian values and gives young people another excuse to spend their parents` money.

Pramod Navalkar, a Shiv Sena man and the former culture minister of the state of Maharashtra, of which this is the capital, declared: ``Drinking, dancing. Drinking, dancing. These two D`s are destroying us. If our boys go and demonstrate in front of those shops, we cannot stop them. We have not asked them to demonstrate, but they might do.``

``What you need,`` he added, ``is to create some public opinion on this.``

Taliban of the Hindu right, guardians of Indian values, or killjoys of the Bombay spirit? Public opinion on the Shiv Sena here is by no means uniform.

What is certain is that their crusade against Cupid is merely the latest sign of a creeping puritanism that aims to make this India metropolis less freewheeling.

The passion over Feb. 14 is just the latest effort by the Shiv Sena, a coalition partner in the national government led by the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party, to weigh in on Bombay`s cultural life.

In recent years, their supporters have raised a ruckus over a Muslim artist`s nude portrayal of a Hindu goddess, disrupted the concert of a Pakistani ghazal singer, and stormed movie theaters to protest a lesbian relationship portrayed in a film.

During his tenure as state culture minister, Mr. Navalkar campaigned against park benches that could encourage public cuddling; he urged that single seats be installed instead.

To hear Mr. Navalkar tell it, the Sena`s grievances cover a gamut of social ills.

Mr. Navalkar is opposed to the proliferation of Western clothes; soon, he fears, Indian women will have forgotten how to wear the traditional sari. He is also against the proliferation of restaurants, for fear they will deprive long-married couples of the one thing they have to talk about every day — shopping for fish and cooking.

``The lifestyle has totally changed,`` Mr. Navalkar lamented. ``Gradually this Westernization has grabbed the entire society.``

Such attitudes have more than a few detractors among those who regard the Shiv Sena`s latest vendetta against Cupid as a political gimmick. One of those is Kiran Nagarkar, a Bombay-born playwright and novelist, who has felt the wrath of Shiv Sena himself.

``Thuggishness is their primary objective,`` he said of the party`s campaign. ``They don`t have any causes left.``

Despite the Shiv Sena`s best efforts, Bombay remains, by many accounts, the most do-as-you-dare, most cosmopolitan of Indian cities, a place where women can, for the most part, safely walk the streets at night and order a gin without turning heads.

But card makers and sellers today cannot help but pay heed to the Shiv Sena campaign. Some in Bombay, as well as in nearby Pune and a few other Indian cities, have been forced to reduce or stop the production of Valentine`s Day cards altogether. One card shop chain, Archie`s, has asked the Indian Supreme Court to issue an order preventing a repeat of last year`s mayhem.

Kalyanji M. Chheda, owner of Satyam Collection card shop, in the heart of Bombay, around the corner from Eros Cinema, has mounted a smaller-than-usual Valentine`s Day spread this year. But he would not drop it altogether.

How could he? Last year, he sold 50,000 Valentine`s Day cards, just short of New Year`s Day card sales of 75,000; Diwali and Eid, the largest Hindu and Muslim holidays here, saw card sales of 50,000 and 25,000.

This year, to take some of the Shiv Sena heat off, the card-makers association has proposed thinly disguised Indian alternatives to Valentine`s Day.

There are new ``love cards,`` affectionate missives adorned with red hearts and pink roses but with no mention of that foreign interloper, St. Valentine, or his unclothed sidekick, Cupid.

Card-makers say they also hope their new invention, Prem Din Utsav, or Love Day Celebration, will soothe even the Sena`s hearts.

But the Sena`s threats have hardly erased the commercial promise of Valentine`s Day.

At least one nightclub is having a Valentine`s Day party. Newspapers are chock-full of ads for Valentine`s Day movie screenings, vacation packages and specials on Eric Segal novels.

The other day, at St. Xavier`s College, a hip and prestigious Jesuit-run school where the prom was recently banned, students leaned against the cool stone pillars and yawned at the Sena`s threats over Valentine`s Day.

``Maybe because we`re becoming more globalized they`re afraid of it becoming more American,`` said a fourth-year student who would give only her first name, Karen. ``This is their inferiority complex way of preserving it

Sena-BJP combine retains Mumbai, Thane civic bodies

Apparently cashing on the national security issue, Shiv Sena-Bharatiya Janata Party saffron combine have braved the anti-incumbency factor and retained prestigious Mumbai and Thane civic bodies, while ruling Congress and Nationalist Congress Party suffered a setback for entering the fray separately.

In the 227-member Brihanmumbai Municipal Corporation, out of the 223 results declared, Shiv Sena has bagged 99 seats and BJP 35 seats, while Congress managed 59 seats and NCP 11 seats.

Samajwadi Party got 10 seats and independents bagged 9 seats.

In neighbouring Thane, Shiv Sena bagged 44 seats, BJP 11 seats, as against 22 seats of NCP and 10 seats of Congress.

The decision of the Sena and BJP combine to give united fight paid rich dividends as the alliance wrested the Congress stronghold of Nasik.

Of the 81 results declared for the 108 civic body, Sena has made a significant gain capturing 31 seats followed by BJP with 20 seats, while Congress has so far picked up only 10 seats in a township hitherto known as its bastion.

NCP also could not make any dent in the constituency, from where party`s mercurial leader and Deputy Chief Minister Chhagan Bhujbal hails.

In Solapur, Congress has gained marginally in its stronghold bagging 41 seats followed by BJP with 29 seats, NCP with 12 seats.

Encouraged by its success in the December two municipal council polls, NCP, which had decided to contest on its own, has failed to make much of an impact barring Ulhasnagar.

The swing in satellite town civic polls in favour of NCP is also mostly attributed to the merger of Ulhasnagar People`s Party founded by TADA-accused Suresh (Pappu) Kalani.

In Nagpur, where saffron parties fought separately, Congress was able to put up a considerable fight.

Of the results available for the 136-member corporation, despite the scandals of alleged sex abuse which haunted the party leadership on the eve of the polls, Congress has notched up 16 as against 24 by BJP and one by Shiv Sena, while NCP has bagged four seats.

BSP has picked up three seats while SP bagged one. In NCP chief Sharad Pawar`s pocket borough Pimpri-Chinchwad, the party emerged as the single largest outfit with 36 seats.

Congress made substantial gains winning 31 seats followed by BJP with 13 seats, Shiv Sena 12 seats and independents two seats.

In Amravati, Congress has bagged 21 seats, followed by Sena 10 seats and BJP 12 seats.

In Akola, which went to the civic polls for the first time, Sena and BJP have forged ahead with 13 and nine seats respectively. Congress has bagged nine, while Bharipa Bahujan Mahasangh has bagged six.

dost-mittar #64
``It seems that Manmohan Singh was done in more by his own party rather than for an allegedly misquoted statement. It still doesn`t reflect very well on the kind of democracy we have in India. ``

dost-mittar, thats why I provided three references, so that you cannot say `misquote`. And there is no conspiracy against Manmohan Singh, the talents of people like himself and Jaswant Singh who cannot win in Lok Sabha due to party and/or voter disaffection are made available by their parties through the Rajya Sabha.

Manmohan Singh ought to have made a greater effort to garner support in his own party, and the Congress party should offer a structure for this sort of career advance, based on more objective vote-pulling criteria than mere vote-pulling dynasty/personality. Its no surprise that this sort of functioning has put the Cong at a disadvantage wrt the better (in comparison) organized and more democratic BJP.

There is no good democracy or bad democracy, there is only absence of democracy (whi