Jinnah’s Ustaadi
Rehan Ansari February 11, 2002
#114 Posted by priyavijayan on March 8, 2006 4:13:44 am
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#113 Posted by MantoLives on December 23, 2004 10:24:34 am
Jinnah WINS poll !
Jinnah the Greatest South Asian Leader ever: BBC POLL
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4100961.stm?display=1
Jinnah the Greatest South Asian Leader ever: BBC POLL
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4100961.stm?display=1
#112 Posted by MantoLives on December 21, 2004 6:40:50 am
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_21-12-2004_pg3_2
My understanding is that the speech most accurately reflected the genius and innermost constitutional and liberal convictions of Jinnah. He had mobilised Muslims in the name of Islam to popularise the idea of Pakistan, but having won his objective against overwhelming odds, his celebrated political instinct and sagacity made him realise that the state should be a modern, democratic polity
It is a most welcome development that politicians and military in Pakistan want to elevate the August 11, 1947 address of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, to the members of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly, to the status of a national covenant. That it has taken more than fifty years to reach such a conclusion is indeed most intriguing. In that address the Quaid said, among other things, the following:
“You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State... We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State... I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in due course Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.”
Examined in the background of the idea of and struggle for Pakistan, it would be highly dishonest not to admit that the vision he portrayed for the state he had founded was bound to be highly controversial. What he was proposing quite plainly and clearly was to supplant the notion of ‘Muslim nationalism’ with ‘Pakistani nationalism’.
This change was virtually a metamorphosis in terms of national identity, but the question arises, was it consistent with the main argument upon which the separatist demand for a Muslim state had been justified: that Muslims were a nation in their own right? It is important to note that when the speech was delivered to the Constituent Assembly many who were listening to it were stunned. The immediate thing which came to their mind was that if Pakistan was to be a state in which religion was to be a private matter then why was it necessary to divide India on a religious basis? The division had not been agreed easily and when it was implemented it caused gigantic problems of forced migration, religious riots and downright genocidal massacres. Several hundred thousand people died as a result.
Jinnah died on September 11, 1948 without having a chance to translate his speech into a constitutional formula. It is interesting to note that in an official collection of the speeches of Jinnah, Selected Speeches and Statements of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, published by the Research Society of Pakistan in 1966, his August 11, 1947 speech was omitted altogether.
My own understanding is that the speech most accurately reflected the genius and innermost constitutional and liberal convictions of Jinnah. He had mobilised Muslims in the name of Islam to popularise the idea of Pakistan, but having won his objective against overwhelming odds, his celebrated political instinct and sagacity made him realise that such a state should be a modern, democratic polity.
Apart from the theoretical considerations that may have influenced the wording and message of the speech, we need also to take into account the historical context in which it was made. Communal violence was at its worst at that time. The Radcliffe Award was about to be announced (it was officially announced on August 17) and one could guess that it would result in population movement on a gigantic scale; Jinnah probably wanted to discourage mass migration, uprooting and further communal violence. However, it is doubtful whether in the wake of the communal riots such a prescription enjoyed much authority in Muslim-Pakistani society, his prestige and authority notwithstanding.
In a dramatic period of seven years beginning with the March 23, 1940 Lahore Resolution, but especially from the end of 1945 when the provincial election campaign began and until Pakistan became an independent state on August 14, 1947, the All-India Muslim League had mobilised Muslims of different sectarian and ideological preferences behind its campaign for a separate state for Muslims. Modernists, diehard clerics, communists and others jumped on to the Pakistan bandwagon, each group believing that its aspirations will be realised in that state.
Jinnah deliberately kept his idea of Pakistan vague and undefined. This becomes evident even from the statements of top Muslim League leaders. Thus, for example, the governor of Punjab, Sir Evan Jenkins, wrote in his confidential fortnightly report of February 28, 1947 to Viceroy Wavell about his meeting on February 18, with the Bengali Muslim League leader Khwaja Nazim ud Din, who was visiting Lahore at that time:
“In our first meeting Khwaja Nazim ud Din admitted candidly that he did not know what Pakistan means, and that nobody in the ML knew, so it was difficult for the League to carry on long-term negotiations with the minorities”.
Once independence had been achieved, differences over the relationship between Islam and politics quickly surfaced, revealing that the Muslim community was by no means a monolithic entity. Also, in 1947, 30 per cent of the Pakistan population comprised non-Muslims: 23 per cent in East Pakistan and 7 per cent in West Pakistan. It was not therefore an entirely Muslim state. Perhaps even more crucially, the successor governments felt an acute need to distinguish Pakistan from India. Relations with the big neighbour in the east had soured considerably because of the conflicting claims to territory, division of common colonial assets and the violent conflict over Kashmir that resulted in a prolonged military confrontation between the two states in the territories of that princely state. All these factors greatly complicated the problem of national identity of Pakistan.
In a series of forthcoming articles, we will examine in the context of national identity the following three main responses to the August 11, 1947 speech from different sections of Pakistani society:
Pakistan should be a modern Islamic democracy
Pakistan should be an Islamic state based on Shariah
Pakistan should be a secular democracy
In the final article we shall examine the merits of each of these three positions, and attempt a theoretical discussion on how to resolve the controversy in the best interest of Pakistan. Pakistan needs to find an ideology that can help it cope with the challenges of the 21st century.
The author is an associate professor of political science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se
My understanding is that the speech most accurately reflected the genius and innermost constitutional and liberal convictions of Jinnah. He had mobilised Muslims in the name of Islam to popularise the idea of Pakistan, but having won his objective against overwhelming odds, his celebrated political instinct and sagacity made him realise that the state should be a modern, democratic polity
It is a most welcome development that politicians and military in Pakistan want to elevate the August 11, 1947 address of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah, to the members of the Pakistan Constituent Assembly, to the status of a national covenant. That it has taken more than fifty years to reach such a conclusion is indeed most intriguing. In that address the Quaid said, among other things, the following:
“You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State... We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State... I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in due course Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the State.”
Examined in the background of the idea of and struggle for Pakistan, it would be highly dishonest not to admit that the vision he portrayed for the state he had founded was bound to be highly controversial. What he was proposing quite plainly and clearly was to supplant the notion of ‘Muslim nationalism’ with ‘Pakistani nationalism’.
This change was virtually a metamorphosis in terms of national identity, but the question arises, was it consistent with the main argument upon which the separatist demand for a Muslim state had been justified: that Muslims were a nation in their own right? It is important to note that when the speech was delivered to the Constituent Assembly many who were listening to it were stunned. The immediate thing which came to their mind was that if Pakistan was to be a state in which religion was to be a private matter then why was it necessary to divide India on a religious basis? The division had not been agreed easily and when it was implemented it caused gigantic problems of forced migration, religious riots and downright genocidal massacres. Several hundred thousand people died as a result.
Jinnah died on September 11, 1948 without having a chance to translate his speech into a constitutional formula. It is interesting to note that in an official collection of the speeches of Jinnah, Selected Speeches and Statements of the Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, published by the Research Society of Pakistan in 1966, his August 11, 1947 speech was omitted altogether.
My own understanding is that the speech most accurately reflected the genius and innermost constitutional and liberal convictions of Jinnah. He had mobilised Muslims in the name of Islam to popularise the idea of Pakistan, but having won his objective against overwhelming odds, his celebrated political instinct and sagacity made him realise that such a state should be a modern, democratic polity.
Apart from the theoretical considerations that may have influenced the wording and message of the speech, we need also to take into account the historical context in which it was made. Communal violence was at its worst at that time. The Radcliffe Award was about to be announced (it was officially announced on August 17) and one could guess that it would result in population movement on a gigantic scale; Jinnah probably wanted to discourage mass migration, uprooting and further communal violence. However, it is doubtful whether in the wake of the communal riots such a prescription enjoyed much authority in Muslim-Pakistani society, his prestige and authority notwithstanding.
In a dramatic period of seven years beginning with the March 23, 1940 Lahore Resolution, but especially from the end of 1945 when the provincial election campaign began and until Pakistan became an independent state on August 14, 1947, the All-India Muslim League had mobilised Muslims of different sectarian and ideological preferences behind its campaign for a separate state for Muslims. Modernists, diehard clerics, communists and others jumped on to the Pakistan bandwagon, each group believing that its aspirations will be realised in that state.
Jinnah deliberately kept his idea of Pakistan vague and undefined. This becomes evident even from the statements of top Muslim League leaders. Thus, for example, the governor of Punjab, Sir Evan Jenkins, wrote in his confidential fortnightly report of February 28, 1947 to Viceroy Wavell about his meeting on February 18, with the Bengali Muslim League leader Khwaja Nazim ud Din, who was visiting Lahore at that time:
“In our first meeting Khwaja Nazim ud Din admitted candidly that he did not know what Pakistan means, and that nobody in the ML knew, so it was difficult for the League to carry on long-term negotiations with the minorities”.
Once independence had been achieved, differences over the relationship between Islam and politics quickly surfaced, revealing that the Muslim community was by no means a monolithic entity. Also, in 1947, 30 per cent of the Pakistan population comprised non-Muslims: 23 per cent in East Pakistan and 7 per cent in West Pakistan. It was not therefore an entirely Muslim state. Perhaps even more crucially, the successor governments felt an acute need to distinguish Pakistan from India. Relations with the big neighbour in the east had soured considerably because of the conflicting claims to territory, division of common colonial assets and the violent conflict over Kashmir that resulted in a prolonged military confrontation between the two states in the territories of that princely state. All these factors greatly complicated the problem of national identity of Pakistan.
In a series of forthcoming articles, we will examine in the context of national identity the following three main responses to the August 11, 1947 speech from different sections of Pakistani society:
Pakistan should be a modern Islamic democracy
Pakistan should be an Islamic state based on Shariah
Pakistan should be a secular democracy
In the final article we shall examine the merits of each of these three positions, and attempt a theoretical discussion on how to resolve the controversy in the best interest of Pakistan. Pakistan needs to find an ideology that can help it cope with the challenges of the 21st century.
The author is an associate professor of political science at Stockholm University. He is the author of two books. His email address is Ishtiaq.Ahmed@statsvet.su.se
#111 Posted by subroto on February 19, 2002 12:24:07 pm
Re Stuka # 104
``Another military brat joins Chowk. Welcome welcome``
Er, vaise to hum bhi fauji brat biradiri wale .. pur ab to brat wali age limit kai decades say ..
Who knows kabhi aap logon ko DSOI may dekha ho..vaise bahut time ho gaya
And surprise from me too - Vadas in Vasant Vihar?? I don`t know if the Malabar is still there in Yusuf Sarai market but a great place for Appams & Chicken Curry, also had a place nearby called Bharatiyam - extremely unhygenic looking but great food.
S
``Another military brat joins Chowk. Welcome welcome``
Er, vaise to hum bhi fauji brat biradiri wale .. pur ab to brat wali age limit kai decades say ..
Who knows kabhi aap logon ko DSOI may dekha ho..vaise bahut time ho gaya
And surprise from me too - Vadas in Vasant Vihar?? I don`t know if the Malabar is still there in Yusuf Sarai market but a great place for Appams & Chicken Curry, also had a place nearby called Bharatiyam - extremely unhygenic looking but great food.
S
#110 Posted by Prem on February 19, 2002 3:01:58 am
re: roohi # 109
Wow, roohi...you brought such delightful memories flooding back.
Have you had an opportunity to visit Hemkund sahib? I have had the privilege and the pleasure to do so.
Roohi, if you haven`t, please see if you can make an arrangement to go there. I have trekked to both Hemkund sahib and to the Valley of Flowers. The climb to Hemkund sahib is longer and much tougher, but ofcourse, sitting by the warm spring, one experiences an ineffable sense of achievement at the end of one`s labor. When I visited, the Valley was in bloom! Every KIND of color was spread out before me, a multi-colored, swaying, hypnotic carpet as it were...the wind was cool and strong, and snow-covered view all around the valley was breath-taking. I remember things in my mind as if it was yesterday....though it`s been close to 15 years! I recall drinking the freezing cold tap water very early morning when we left Gangharia (the website you listed calls the place Govind Dham, which may well be its new (better) name), the climb, the aching legs, my lousy shoes, broad strap of the heavy rucksack...I can feel even today the distinct apprehension about making it up quickly enough so the weather wouldn`t deteriorate on the way.
BTW, when I visited the valley, entrance was free - at least I don`t recall paying anybody anything.
Regards.
Wow, roohi...you brought such delightful memories flooding back.
Have you had an opportunity to visit Hemkund sahib? I have had the privilege and the pleasure to do so.
Roohi, if you haven`t, please see if you can make an arrangement to go there. I have trekked to both Hemkund sahib and to the Valley of Flowers. The climb to Hemkund sahib is longer and much tougher, but ofcourse, sitting by the warm spring, one experiences an ineffable sense of achievement at the end of one`s labor. When I visited, the Valley was in bloom! Every KIND of color was spread out before me, a multi-colored, swaying, hypnotic carpet as it were...the wind was cool and strong, and snow-covered view all around the valley was breath-taking. I remember things in my mind as if it was yesterday....though it`s been close to 15 years! I recall drinking the freezing cold tap water very early morning when we left Gangharia (the website you listed calls the place Govind Dham, which may well be its new (better) name), the climb, the aching legs, my lousy shoes, broad strap of the heavy rucksack...I can feel even today the distinct apprehension about making it up quickly enough so the weather wouldn`t deteriorate on the way.
BTW, when I visited the valley, entrance was free - at least I don`t recall paying anybody anything.
Regards.
#109 Posted by veeresh on February 19, 2002 3:01:58 am
yes anNy yes, I am most mortified . . . especially when I realise that all your angoors, chabelis, orchids and Pakistani men were originally . . . Indians. (Hindus)
(Takes a bow)
(Applause)
Forgive me, early in the morning here.
But the current Pakistani television and film superstar, one Pervez Musharaf, is also from Delhi.
So there.
(When I was young I wore bell bottoms)
#108 Posted by ZafarA on February 19, 2002 3:01:58 am
Reply Stuka # 106
“Ok, I give up. What is a Hema Malini from Bhogal??”
Bete, hamare bachpan men Bhogal men ganne ka ras bechthe thhe. One enterprising stall keeper called “different sugar cane juices” by film star’s names…so you could buy a Hema Malini, a Poonam, etc. etc. Your Veeresh Unkil will be able to tell you more about this.
Actually, I suspect that the glasses were all the same size…there was some masla with iss men yeh dalthe hain, aur uss men kuchh aur, but I think the whole thing was a scam to charge different prices for your basic gilaas of ganne ka ras (with adrak).
“Arrey, I don`t even know what BM stands for? Are you talking about Bengali Market?”
Yes! Aaj main bahuth khush hoon…bachche ko apni sanskriti ke bare men kuchh tho malum hai…
“Ok, I give up. What is a Hema Malini from Bhogal??”
Bete, hamare bachpan men Bhogal men ganne ka ras bechthe thhe. One enterprising stall keeper called “different sugar cane juices” by film star’s names…so you could buy a Hema Malini, a Poonam, etc. etc. Your Veeresh Unkil will be able to tell you more about this.
Actually, I suspect that the glasses were all the same size…there was some masla with iss men yeh dalthe hain, aur uss men kuchh aur, but I think the whole thing was a scam to charge different prices for your basic gilaas of ganne ka ras (with adrak).
“Arrey, I don`t even know what BM stands for? Are you talking about Bengali Market?”
Yes! Aaj main bahuth khush hoon…bachche ko apni sanskriti ke bare men kuchh tho malum hai…
#107 Posted by roohi on February 19, 2002 3:01:58 am
stuka, i did go to APS delhi and to eat vadas in VV you would have to have a friend called called vijaylaxmi who lived there - so at least coconut grove is still there - love their malabar paranthas ! btw i missed X - for south ex ofcourse
#106 Posted by roohi on February 18, 2002 6:18:57 pm
anNy - don`t know or care about the men - but your tastes in flowers are a little vilayti !
What is wrong with Bela, Gulab, Juhi, Champa, Chameli (oh you had that one) or Nargis or Harshingar ? or if you like them bright maybe an armful of gulmohar, amaltaash or good old sarson ?
I`m sure they grow as well across the border !
Anyway if you like flowers a soul stirringly beautiful place to trek to is the Valley of Flowers National Park at the headwaters of the Ganga near Hemkunt Sahib. Here is a link to some pictures and info
http://www.sikhnet.com/hemkuntsahib/valley.htm
enjoy !
What is wrong with Bela, Gulab, Juhi, Champa, Chameli (oh you had that one) or Nargis or Harshingar ? or if you like them bright maybe an armful of gulmohar, amaltaash or good old sarson ?
I`m sure they grow as well across the border !
Anyway if you like flowers a soul stirringly beautiful place to trek to is the Valley of Flowers National Park at the headwaters of the Ganga near Hemkunt Sahib. Here is a link to some pictures and info
http://www.sikhnet.com/hemkuntsahib/valley.htm
enjoy !
#105 Posted by stuka on February 18, 2002 6:18:57 pm
Zafar:
Tell me what a Hema Malini from Bhogul is – then
you can talk.
Ok, I give up. What is a Hema Malini from Bhogal??
(Hamare zamane mein Hyatt Shyatt illa…youth of today has no
concept of struggle…beta, life isn’t all g-jams at BM, understand?)
Arrey, I don`t even know what BM stands for? Are you talking about Bengali Market? BTW, I just went thru Roohi`s culinary list...and I don`t get where she is talking about when she says V- Vadas in Vasant Vihar.
My best bet for Vadas would be Sagar in Def Col. Waise best South Indian non veg food I had was at Coconut Grove in Delhi.
Tell me what a Hema Malini from Bhogul is – then
you can talk.
Ok, I give up. What is a Hema Malini from Bhogal??
(Hamare zamane mein Hyatt Shyatt illa…youth of today has no
concept of struggle…beta, life isn’t all g-jams at BM, understand?)
Arrey, I don`t even know what BM stands for? Are you talking about Bengali Market? BTW, I just went thru Roohi`s culinary list...and I don`t get where she is talking about when she says V- Vadas in Vasant Vihar.
My best bet for Vadas would be Sagar in Def Col. Waise best South Indian non veg food I had was at Coconut Grove in Delhi.
#104 Posted by stuka on February 18, 2002 6:18:57 pm
Veeresh:
Bhai, I did go to Mezz last time. I don`t know...didn`t like it too much. I couldn`t figure out, is the damn place a club or a bar or a lounge. I mean, if you`re gonna have loud music that drowns out conversation, might as well have a dance floor. But if this is a place to unwind, then keep the music lowkey, so you can at least talk without yelling yourself hoarse. Ii don`t know...just some thoughts..
Club wise, I like Djinns, even though the floor is a bit small. To have a drink, no civil place even comes close to the small bar at the Army Battle Honor`s Mess on SP Marg
Bhai, I did go to Mezz last time. I don`t know...didn`t like it too much. I couldn`t figure out, is the damn place a club or a bar or a lounge. I mean, if you`re gonna have loud music that drowns out conversation, might as well have a dance floor. But if this is a place to unwind, then keep the music lowkey, so you can at least talk without yelling yourself hoarse. Ii don`t know...just some thoughts..
Club wise, I like Djinns, even though the floor is a bit small. To have a drink, no civil place even comes close to the small bar at the Army Battle Honor`s Mess on SP Marg
#103 Posted by stuka on February 18, 2002 6:18:57 pm
Roohi (what a nice name BTW)
``thanks and no i didn`t live in south delhi - but in the Cantt (Dhaula
Kuan and Pratap Chowk)``
Ofcourse I know the area quite well. I used to live at Air Force Palam for the longest time, which is also in Delhi Cantt, Past Loreto and Mount St Mary`s. I remember Gopinath Bazaar quite well. Then moved to Arjun Vihar, which is right opposite the Army Golf Course.
``but being an old dilli wali family we had
regular trips to the big old (crumbling) family home on rohtak road
in Karol Bagh (behind Ajmal Khan Park) and lived there after my
Dad retired from the army.``
Another military brat joins Chowk. Welcome welcome. I know exactly what you are talking about. For us, the old family home is Lajpat Nagar. BTW, ``old dilli wali wali`` is quite a relative term on Chowk. The Punjabi refugees are considered newbies I guess, compared to some of the discussions on Delhi that have taken place.
``Of course by now all my cousins have
moved to South Delhi :-). I went to APS, Sophia (in Meerut, where
my Mum is from, in hostel) DPS (mathrua rd)and Miranda House
and worked at NIIT before leaving 10 years ago.``
Ok, so I guess you didn`t go to APS Delhi then. I went to Air Force Bal Bharati on Lodi Rd.
`` delhi must look lovely right now with the roundells full of flowers -
i`d love to beam back just for the Surajkund Mela - so all you
people there who do go to it have a Lassi for me !``
I got back from Delhi a month back. January is not a good time to go I think. But March is nice, and one can play Holi. Culinary experience wise, anyone ever go for Momos at this market next to Chanakya movie theatre?
``thanks and no i didn`t live in south delhi - but in the Cantt (Dhaula
Kuan and Pratap Chowk)``
Ofcourse I know the area quite well. I used to live at Air Force Palam for the longest time, which is also in Delhi Cantt, Past Loreto and Mount St Mary`s. I remember Gopinath Bazaar quite well. Then moved to Arjun Vihar, which is right opposite the Army Golf Course.
``but being an old dilli wali family we had
regular trips to the big old (crumbling) family home on rohtak road
in Karol Bagh (behind Ajmal Khan Park) and lived there after my
Dad retired from the army.``
Another military brat joins Chowk. Welcome welcome. I know exactly what you are talking about. For us, the old family home is Lajpat Nagar. BTW, ``old dilli wali wali`` is quite a relative term on Chowk. The Punjabi refugees are considered newbies I guess, compared to some of the discussions on Delhi that have taken place.
``Of course by now all my cousins have
moved to South Delhi :-). I went to APS, Sophia (in Meerut, where
my Mum is from, in hostel) DPS (mathrua rd)and Miranda House
and worked at NIIT before leaving 10 years ago.``
Ok, so I guess you didn`t go to APS Delhi then. I went to Air Force Bal Bharati on Lodi Rd.
`` delhi must look lovely right now with the roundells full of flowers -
i`d love to beam back just for the Surajkund Mela - so all you
people there who do go to it have a Lassi for me !``
I got back from Delhi a month back. January is not a good time to go I think. But March is nice, and one can play Holi. Culinary experience wise, anyone ever go for Momos at this market next to Chanakya movie theatre?
#102 Posted by stuka on February 18, 2002 6:18:57 pm
AnNy:
``..pakistani men are the sexiest men ever...i refuse to listen to any arguements here``
Well, if that`s the case, why do Pakistani women fall all over themselves trying to hitch up with Khar Sahib, the old ``Loin`` of Punjab? Would you consider him to be the acme of Male Pakistani sex appeal ??? :)
``..pakistani men are the sexiest men ever...i refuse to listen to any arguements here``
Well, if that`s the case, why do Pakistani women fall all over themselves trying to hitch up with Khar Sahib, the old ``Loin`` of Punjab? Would you consider him to be the acme of Male Pakistani sex appeal ??? :)
#101 Posted by anNy on February 18, 2002 11:16:43 am
veeresh
have you seen our angoor you silly man..have u any idea about the beautiful chambeli and orchids we grow?...tobah..and men..pakistani men are the sexiest men ever...i refuse to listen to any arguements here
have you seen our angoor you silly man..have u any idea about the beautiful chambeli and orchids we grow?...tobah..and men..pakistani men are the sexiest men ever...i refuse to listen to any arguements here
#100 Posted by monasehgal on February 18, 2002 11:16:43 am
veeresh
I guess, the trafic jam you are talking of is on the day after the Valentine Day. The rush was due to all those weddings taking place. We too got stuck first at Naraina while going to CP for a wedding and later near Zakira while going to Punjabi Bagh where there were four weddings taking place in one park.
Mona
I guess, the trafic jam you are talking of is on the day after the Valentine Day. The rush was due to all those weddings taking place. We too got stuck first at Naraina while going to CP for a wedding and later near Zakira while going to Punjabi Bagh where there were four weddings taking place in one park.
Mona
#99 Posted by aakar on February 18, 2002 11:16:43 am
rehan
naseeruddin shah has begun a v interesting experiment with manto`s and chughtai`s works. saw part ii at prithvi last night, on the stories for which they were charged with obscenity and an enactment of the lahore court`s proceedings.
the monologues are mainly by his daughter heeba and my college roommate ankur vikal (saeed mirza who was with me said ankur is the best young actor he has seen in the last decade).
try and catch the show if u can.
1) ismat aapa key naam
2) manto, ismat haazir ho
aakar
naseeruddin shah has begun a v interesting experiment with manto`s and chughtai`s works. saw part ii at prithvi last night, on the stories for which they were charged with obscenity and an enactment of the lahore court`s proceedings.
the monologues are mainly by his daughter heeba and my college roommate ankur vikal (saeed mirza who was with me said ankur is the best young actor he has seen in the last decade).
try and catch the show if u can.
1) ismat aapa key naam
2) manto, ismat haazir ho
aakar
#98 Posted by semipreciousme on February 18, 2002 11:16:43 am
re: roohi # 85
…as someone said, drool inducing indeed….hey anNy, looks like you’ve been given a run for your money…
…as someone said, drool inducing indeed….hey anNy, looks like you’ve been given a run for your money…
#97 Posted by soundmeister on February 18, 2002 11:16:43 am
Reply Veeresh #97
``If you want to listen to classic rock in Delhi then please head for the MEZZ at Friend`s Colony (Jamia side) and ask Nikhil or any other DJ there kee Veeresh ne bhejaa hai, and wait for the Hendrix.``
* * MEZZ rocks!! Have a friend who lives at New Friends and religiously takes every visitor to Delhi at least once to Mezz. The music is truly good. But then, since this IS about being parochial and narrow minded, Mumbai has Club IX (till about 11.30, when the teeny brigade troops in) and Toto`s (lately he`s got stuck into an 80`s pop groove which is kinda annoying, but still preferably to Britney/ Jennifer/ Westlife/ whatever).... and of COURSE The Tavern, with it`s pioneering Pink Floyd LaserDs on the large screen TV.... but theek hai yaar... MEZZ is good :)))
``There are very few roundabouts left now, most have become flyovers or stations for the underground Metro``
* * Hmmmm....have to admit last trip pe, Metro signs were a bit of a shock..... will knock off my strongest argument about Mumbai`s superiority through public transport systems.... well, theek hai....you guys are miles away from DTC AC buses....heehee
``My children (f/20 and m/15) listen to my old music and are discovering Uriah Heep, amongst others.``
* * MAY their tribe increase..... my biggest kick in life till now has been to play ``Woman in Black`` in concert to an audience that actually appreciated it.... so what if it was made up mostly of adoring classmates....we loved em for it :)))
``She came to me one morning.... one lonely Sunday morning.... her long hair flowing.... in the mid-winter wind``
Sigh!
``If you want to listen to classic rock in Delhi then please head for the MEZZ at Friend`s Colony (Jamia side) and ask Nikhil or any other DJ there kee Veeresh ne bhejaa hai, and wait for the Hendrix.``
* * MEZZ rocks!! Have a friend who lives at New Friends and religiously takes every visitor to Delhi at least once to Mezz. The music is truly good. But then, since this IS about being parochial and narrow minded, Mumbai has Club IX (till about 11.30, when the teeny brigade troops in) and Toto`s (lately he`s got stuck into an 80`s pop groove which is kinda annoying, but still preferably to Britney/ Jennifer/ Westlife/ whatever).... and of COURSE The Tavern, with it`s pioneering Pink Floyd LaserDs on the large screen TV.... but theek hai yaar... MEZZ is good :)))
``There are very few roundabouts left now, most have become flyovers or stations for the underground Metro``
* * Hmmmm....have to admit last trip pe, Metro signs were a bit of a shock..... will knock off my strongest argument about Mumbai`s superiority through public transport systems.... well, theek hai....you guys are miles away from DTC AC buses....heehee
``My children (f/20 and m/15) listen to my old music and are discovering Uriah Heep, amongst others.``
* * MAY their tribe increase..... my biggest kick in life till now has been to play ``Woman in Black`` in concert to an audience that actually appreciated it.... so what if it was made up mostly of adoring classmates....we loved em for it :)))
``She came to me one morning.... one lonely Sunday morning.... her long hair flowing.... in the mid-winter wind``
Sigh!
#96 Posted by veeresh on February 18, 2002 2:30:33 am
OK all you great delhiites especially Zafar since you talk about Bhogal BHOGAL . . . Subroto, Stuka, Roohi . . .
a) If you want to listen to classic rock in Delhi then please head for the MEZZ at Friend`s Colony (Jamia side) and ask Nikhil or any other DJ there kee Veeresh ne bhejaa hai, and wait for the Hendrix.
b) There are very few roundabouts left now, most have become flyovers or stations for the underground Metro (90% of stage 1 complete from Shahdara through Seelampuri onto Tiz Hazari).
c) My children (f/20 and m/15) listen to my old music and are discovering Uriah Heep, amongst others.
d) And finally, please wait for my forthcoming opus on Jinnah, dredged out of old records from the Dawn/Daryangaj records (now TOI Training School) and help from Golden Temple sources. Here is a hint:- Jinnah believed that freedom of the press was guaranteed as long as he owned the press.
+++
Does anybody from Karachi have any info on the fundas of Bennett Coleman & Co. and the relationship that company may still have with remnants of the Dalmias/Goenkas still in Pakistan, or linkages with Okara Sutlej Mills?
Ah-ha!!!
#95 Posted by ZafarA on February 18, 2002 2:03:11 am
Reply Stuka
“…You are a true Delhitie, unlike Zafar, whose culinary experiences began at the Oberoi and ended at the Hyatt. :)”
Abbe Stuka! Tell me what a Hema Malini from Bhogul is – then you can talk.
(Hamare zamane mein Hyatt Shyatt illa…youth of today has no concept of struggle…beta, life isn’t all g-jams at BM, understand?)
“…You are a true Delhitie, unlike Zafar, whose culinary experiences began at the Oberoi and ended at the Hyatt. :)”
Abbe Stuka! Tell me what a Hema Malini from Bhogul is – then you can talk.
(Hamare zamane mein Hyatt Shyatt illa…youth of today has no concept of struggle…beta, life isn’t all g-jams at BM, understand?)
#94 Posted by rehanhasanansar on February 18, 2002 12:19:55 am
``Back to the future
By Ayaz Amir
Even in a land renowned for silly edicts, the most recent addition to the statute book, Chief Executive`s Order No 15, takes the prize for silliness.
Even as separate electorates have been abolished and a single or joint electorate restored, this Order makes provision for mentioning voters belonging to the Ahmedi sect in a separate column.
Anyone suspected or accused of being an Ahmedi can be called upon within the next few days by the concerned returning officer to sign a form affirming the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (upon whom be peace). Should the person so required refuse, he or she will be counted as a non-Muslim voter.(Dawn)
Pakistani Islam is the weirdest of all Islams in the world -- and Musharraf is one of its weirdest followers.
The man professes to be building Pakistan as a progressive united Muslim country -- FREE OF SECTARIANISM and ethnic and religious infighting and bigotry -- then turns around and PERSONALLY issues this -- utterly childish, monumentally stupid, poisonously divisive, DEGRADINGLY demeaning -- AND -- one hundred percent -- SECTARIAN Ordinance.
What a twofaced hypocrite -- no wonder nobody respects him around the world any more.
And -- What a pathological obsession with Prophet`s sanctity -- they even hang and shoot people in jail -- to quench their blood thirsty paranoia.
they had already MINORITIZED a highly educated, most productive, law abiding, civilized MUSLIM community -- into THIRD class citizens.
NOW this Pakistani caricature of an ATATURK -- has practically ARMINIANIZED the hapless Ahmedis -- by issuing this horrible Ordinance -- declaring an open season on them.
Sign your RECONVERSION -- OR BE DAMNED FOR EVER.
These crazy people are almost -- WORSHIPPING MUHAMMAD -- instead of God -- over there -- and Musharraf is the craziest one -- for personally leading their prayers.
hasan
By Ayaz Amir
Even in a land renowned for silly edicts, the most recent addition to the statute book, Chief Executive`s Order No 15, takes the prize for silliness.
Even as separate electorates have been abolished and a single or joint electorate restored, this Order makes provision for mentioning voters belonging to the Ahmedi sect in a separate column.
Anyone suspected or accused of being an Ahmedi can be called upon within the next few days by the concerned returning officer to sign a form affirming the finality of the Prophethood of Muhammad (upon whom be peace). Should the person so required refuse, he or she will be counted as a non-Muslim voter.(Dawn)
Pakistani Islam is the weirdest of all Islams in the world -- and Musharraf is one of its weirdest followers.
The man professes to be building Pakistan as a progressive united Muslim country -- FREE OF SECTARIANISM and ethnic and religious infighting and bigotry -- then turns around and PERSONALLY issues this -- utterly childish, monumentally stupid, poisonously divisive, DEGRADINGLY demeaning -- AND -- one hundred percent -- SECTARIAN Ordinance.
What a twofaced hypocrite -- no wonder nobody respects him around the world any more.
And -- What a pathological obsession with Prophet`s sanctity -- they even hang and shoot people in jail -- to quench their blood thirsty paranoia.
they had already MINORITIZED a highly educated, most productive, law abiding, civilized MUSLIM community -- into THIRD class citizens.
NOW this Pakistani caricature of an ATATURK -- has practically ARMINIANIZED the hapless Ahmedis -- by issuing this horrible Ordinance -- declaring an open season on them.
Sign your RECONVERSION -- OR BE DAMNED FOR EVER.
These crazy people are almost -- WORSHIPPING MUHAMMAD -- instead of God -- over there -- and Musharraf is the craziest one -- for personally leading their prayers.
hasan
#93 Posted by rehanhasanansar on February 18, 2002 12:19:55 am
Lajwanti: I think I will not join the kafir khan fan club. My reason being as follows: He holds the Pandits (Brahmans, I assume, but I like the name Panda better) for the following : ``ritual, thugee, exploitation, slavery, child abuse, evil, injustice, violence, ridicule, Brahmanism, castism, role of Raja and inequality.``
The above are no doubt the source of much evil (by Brahmanism, I assume he means the caste system). And no doubt many Pandits are guilty of some or all of the above. BUT, that is true for humanity at large, and these evils are not the exclusive domain of the pandits. Any club that condemns any community of people for evils that are committed by individuals in ALL communities is not a club I would join.
Incidentally, I find it fascinating that a couple of chowk posters (not you, you are one of the most wonderful posters on chowk) who routinely write insulting posts about Pakistanis switch just as easily to write insulting posts about Indian Pandits. Do I see a pattern????
The above are no doubt the source of much evil (by Brahmanism, I assume he means the caste system). And no doubt many Pandits are guilty of some or all of the above. BUT, that is true for humanity at large, and these evils are not the exclusive domain of the pandits. Any club that condemns any community of people for evils that are committed by individuals in ALL communities is not a club I would join.
Incidentally, I find it fascinating that a couple of chowk posters (not you, you are one of the most wonderful posters on chowk) who routinely write insulting posts about Pakistanis switch just as easily to write insulting posts about Indian Pandits. Do I see a pattern????
#92 Posted by subroto on February 18, 2002 12:19:55 am
RE Veeresh # 88
``(Peter Gabriel hotaa to baat thee)``
O kee kahriye ho Unkal jee, ae Peter Gabriel to saddde zamana da banda hai, ae nahi chalega. Ab to aM-TV da zamana haga jee. Apna ek yaar Dilli vich DJ da kaam karta ha - so this time when I was in India I was able to hear teen`s choice - and very sorry to say sirjee but it was not Peter Gabriel. Actually your kids would be able to give you an update on whats ``in`` these days, i.e if they are not already doing that ;-)
Roohi # 85 Very yummy post indeed.
RSridhar # 83 We found that difference pretty soon for when we asked the servant to get 1 kg of meat from the market he ended up with a kilo of salt, cos salt in Marathi is ``Meeth``.
Subroto
``(Peter Gabriel hotaa to baat thee)``
O kee kahriye ho Unkal jee, ae Peter Gabriel to saddde zamana da banda hai, ae nahi chalega. Ab to aM-TV da zamana haga jee. Apna ek yaar Dilli vich DJ da kaam karta ha - so this time when I was in India I was able to hear teen`s choice - and very sorry to say sirjee but it was not Peter Gabriel. Actually your kids would be able to give you an update on whats ``in`` these days, i.e if they are not already doing that ;-)
Roohi # 85 Very yummy post indeed.
RSridhar # 83 We found that difference pretty soon for when we asked the servant to get 1 kg of meat from the market he ended up with a kilo of salt, cos salt in Marathi is ``Meeth``.
Subroto
#91 Posted by roohi on February 18, 2002 12:19:55 am
Stuka,
thanks and no i didn`t live in south delhi - but in the Cantt (Dhaula Kuan and Pratap Chowk) but being an old dilli wali family we had regular trips to the big old (crumbling) family home on rohtak road in Karol Bagh (behind Ajmal Khan Park) and lived there after my Dad retired from the army. Of course by now all my cousins have moved to South Delhi :-). I went to APS, Sophia (in Meerut, where my Mum is from, in hostel) DPS (mathrua rd)and Miranda House and worked at NIIT before leaving 10 years ago.
delhi must look lovely right now with the roundells full of flowers - i`d love to beam back just for the Surajkund Mela - so all you people there who do go to it have a Lassi for me !
thanks and no i didn`t live in south delhi - but in the Cantt (Dhaula Kuan and Pratap Chowk) but being an old dilli wali family we had regular trips to the big old (crumbling) family home on rohtak road in Karol Bagh (behind Ajmal Khan Park) and lived there after my Dad retired from the army. Of course by now all my cousins have moved to South Delhi :-). I went to APS, Sophia (in Meerut, where my Mum is from, in hostel) DPS (mathrua rd)and Miranda House and worked at NIIT before leaving 10 years ago.
delhi must look lovely right now with the roundells full of flowers - i`d love to beam back just for the Surajkund Mela - so all you people there who do go to it have a Lassi for me !
#90 Posted by sigalph235 on February 18, 2002 12:19:55 am
re aamir
``Naipaul who was given Nobel for being Brown British a cuddly pet dog sort of ...``
The Nobel is given by the Norwegians and Swedes, not the British. Your language about eminent personalities bespeaks volumes about canine features.
``Naipaul who was given Nobel for being Brown British a cuddly pet dog sort of ...``
The Nobel is given by the Norwegians and Swedes, not the British. Your language about eminent personalities bespeaks volumes about canine features.
#89 Posted by AAmir on February 17, 2002 5:31:45 pm
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#88 Posted by stuka on February 17, 2002 2:59:49 pm
Roohi:
Excellent post. You are a true Delhitie, unlike Zafar, whose culinary experiences began at the Oberoi and ended at the Hyatt. :) Too upperclass he is.
So, first time I have seen you on Chowk...details on your Delhi experiences are needed...what part of Delhi are you from?? I would bet South Delhi..
Excellent post. You are a true Delhitie, unlike Zafar, whose culinary experiences began at the Oberoi and ended at the Hyatt. :) Too upperclass he is.
So, first time I have seen you on Chowk...details on your Delhi experiences are needed...what part of Delhi are you from?? I would bet South Delhi..
#87 Posted by veeresh on February 17, 2002 2:30:40 pm
anNy #82 . . . ok so that was a coooooool Valentine`s Day do in Karachi . . . what I wonder about is the U2 selection . . . do they sing ``Sunday Bloddy Sunday`` as Friday in Pakistan and Tuesday in India and Saturday in Israel etcetc?
Wondering.
(Takes another bow)
Your sunflowers are better than ours? Have you seen our ganna, our kinoo and most of all have you seen our tarboooz? And you want to compare sunflowers?
As for the guys being better than ours, no lady, no, you are indeed sadly ill-informed . . . any guys who dance to U2 (Imagine, I will Follow YOu?) . . . oh nahee jee nahee.
(Peter Gabriel hotaa to baat thee)
#86 Posted by harimau on February 17, 2002 2:30:40 pm
ylh:
Yo, man! Here is something for you to chew on. Now you can quote VS Naipaul, with all the authority that the Nobel Prize bestows on him, on Gandhi. Thank me, Yasser, thank me.
Christianity Didn`t Damage India Like Islam
Widely regarded as the world`s greatest living writer in English, Trinidad-born Sir Vidiadhar talks to Tarun J. Tejpal in what he claims is his ``last`` interview on India
India has a fractured past and a fissured present. What do you think is India`s future? Is it a civilisation in decay?
``Fractured past``is too polite a way to describe India`s calamitous millennium. The millennium began with the Muslim invasions and the grinding down of the Hindu-Buddhist culture of the north. This is such a big and bad event that people still have to find polite, destiny-defying ways of speaking about it. In art books and history books, people write of the Muslims ``arriving`` in India, as though the Muslims came on a tourist bus and went away again.
The Muslim view of their conquest of India is a truer one. They speak of the triumph of the faith, the destruction of idols and temples, the loot, the carting away of the local people as slaves, so cheap and numerous that they were being sold for a few rupees. The architectural evidence-the absence of Hindu monuments in the north-is convincing enough. This conquest was unlike any other that had gone before. There are no Hindu records of this period. Defeated people never write their history. The victors write the history. The victors were Muslims. For people on the other side it is a period of darkness. Indian history is written about as a matter of rulers and kingdoms shifting and changing. This is why it all seems petty and boring to read and hard to remember. But there is a larger and more tragic and more illuminating theme. That theme is the grinding down of Hindu India. Let us consider two late dates. In 1565, the year after the birth of Shakespeare, Vijayanagar in the south is destroyed and its great capital city laid waste. In 1592, the terrible Akbar ravages Orissa in the east. This means that while a country like England is preparing for greatness under its great queen, old India, in its sixth century of retreat, is still being reduced to nonentity.
The wealth and creativity, the artisans and architects of the kingdoms of Vijayanagar and Orissa would have been destroyed, their light put out. Those regions are still now among the poorest in India. The theme of the last two or three centuries of the millennium-with the Sikhs, the Maharashtrians, and, above all, the British-has been one of slow recovery. This is of course looking at it from the Hindu side. The Muslims see it as a period of decay. Your three books on India summed up three separate aspects of India-An Area of Darkness, A Wounded Civilisation and A Million Mutinies Now. In a sense these are the negatives. What are the positives that help India hang together?
We are not born with full knowledge and people of my background were granted very little of it at school. Writing is a process of learning. The writer writes himself into an understanding of his world and it has taken me many years and much writing to arrive at the understanding which I now have. Somerset Maugham said something like that about his time as a playwright. He said he felt he should apologise to the public for practising on them. My Indian books were written over a period of 27 years. An Area of Darkness is a personal book. A book of shock and concern. A Wounded Civilisation deals with the beginnings of my understandings of the effects of the invasions. A Million Mutinies Now is about a country more than ever like India at present: a country in revolt at many levels, a country, in fact, beginning to deal with its bad past. I don`t think of it as a negative book.
You reckon that India`s civilisational wholeness was shattered by the incursions of Islam and then Christianity. What do you make of the school of thought that asserts these invasions, and later influences, actually enriched Indian culture and life?
Here again I find in the question an element of political politeness. Christianity did not damage India the way Islam had. There are two sides to Christianity in India. There is the fine source of the New Learning that came with the British. There is another, more petty Christianity that came as the personal faith of the rulers and then the missionaries.
When you talk of Islam`s enriching of Indian culture, you are thinking of things like the food and the music and the poetry. But there is a profounder thing to be said. The two great revealed religions, Islam and Christianity, have altered the world forever, and we all, whatever our faith, walk in their light. Over and above their theology, these religions gave the world social ideas-brotherhood, charity, the feeling of man for man-which we now all take for granted. They are the basis of our political ideas and our ideas of morality. Those ideas didn`t exist before, not in the classical world, not in Hinduism or Buddhism.It may be that these two revealed religions have done their work and have little more to offer. But that`s another matter.
What in your opinion is the most debilitating thing about the Hindu way of life?
The philosophical idea of the beauty of surrender, made much worse by the centuries of defeat, and expressed today in the widespread feeling that men should not get above themselves, that men should not make too many demands.
And what is the most enriching?
I feel nailed to the mast of your questions. I have to think about this one. But it isn`t the way my mind works.
Do you think the Gandhian prescription, harking back to an ascetic and pure past, has proven a mistake? Do you think Gandhi, and all he stood for, has resulted in a schizophrenic India, trapped in hypocrisies?
Gandhi shouldn`t be considered as laying down a prescription for anything. He was uneducated and never a thinker. He is an historical figure. He came at a particular moment; he turned all his drawbacks into religion; and he used religion to awaken the country in a way that none of the educated leaders could have done. He has absolutely no message today. People talk too much about Gandhi and study him too little. His first book, Hind Swaraj, written at white heat in two weeks in 1909, is so nonsensical it would curl the hair of even the most devoted admirer. I don`t know Indians who actually read Gandhi. They take from him some vague idea of a great redeeming holiness and they are free ignore the practical side-Gandhi the hater of dirt, the hater of public defecation. That last is still very much an Indian sport. In fact, the Gandhian idea of piety and a very holy poverty is used now to excuse the dirt of the cities, the shoddiness of the architecture. By some inversion, Indians have used the very idea of Gandhi to turn dirt and backwardness into much-loved deities.
At the same time, would you agree that were it not for a modern cosmopolitan leader like Nehru, India would have had trouble establishing itself as a secular democracy?
It is India`s luck that-unlike, say, revolutionary Iran-Gandhi never was responsible for the running of the country. Full tribute has to be paid to Nehru and the others for establishing and extending in independence the British-given liberal institutions.
What do you make of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty? Providing continuity and stability or enfeebling the democratic process and the Congress?
We mustn`t waste too much time talking about that. The position of India in 1947 was roughly like the position of the Spanish South American countries after the withdrawal of Spain in about 1810. The big question for many people at that time-the question leading very often to a civil war, which still in some places goes on-the big question was: ``Who among the local people is now going to rule us?``The Nehru dynasty provided this assurance for India for a long time.
India was lucky to have them but now that democratic institutions have to some extent taken root India no longer needs them. A liberal dynasty like that in a country like Yugoslavia would have greatly helped that unhappy country.
Of all Indian prime ministers, Indira Gandhi remains the greatest enigma. What is your judgement on her: a tough purposeful leader or a wrecker of all national institutions?
To some extent she was created by Indian need.
Though you grew up in faraway Trinidad, two generations removed from India, you carry a lot of India around in you. Where in your personality do you think is it most apparent?
A writer should never review himself. It is really for other people to say. Also, how has your being Indian shaped you as a man and a writer, particularly the latter? It has been fundamental. I was born in 1932. So I was always concerned about the independence movement. I was very soon aware that our small Indian community in Trinidad had very little political protection. The easy way out would have been to complain about British imperialism. I preferred to look inwards, to find out why a country like India had been so helpless and so indifferent to its people. That was where my writing began. That was my quest. Even my Islamic books have been part of that same quest.
What do you think of the Hindu resurgence that has been taking place in India over the last decade? Do you think it`s a dangerous militancy that will eventually destroy India`s secular character?
You have asked a loaded question. You say that India has a secular character, which is historically unsound. You say that Hindu militancy is dangerous. Dangerous or not, it is a necessary corrective to the history I have been talking about. It is a creative force and it will prove to be so.
Do you think an unpartitioned India would have worked? Why?
No. As soon as the poet Iqbal, the convert, had made his speech calling for a separate state, that state more or less became inevitable. And considering the Islamic movements of the last 30 years, nearly all the energy of an unpartitioned India would have fruitlessly gone into holding itself together.
Why is it that Pakistan so easily slips into martial/dictatorial ways, while democracy is never threatened in India?
West Pakistan was not particularly well educated. It had almost no political thinkers. It had had only about 90 years of British rule and institutions. It was easy for those institutions to be brushed aside. Jinnah was in many ways an attractive, secular man, but the snare of the Islamic movement he unleashed was like the snare of the Islamic movement in Iran. It assumed that out of a perfect Islam everything would flow: good institutions, good laws and a model citizenry. There was no need to think further; everything would come with the faith.
They were also converts and therefore fanatical. Among Arabs, there can be people like the Syrian poet Adonis for whom Islam is only an aspect of his Mediterranean identity. The convert doesn`t have that kind of security. It is also worth remembering that Islamic societies are not democratic in the modern way. They reflect to an amazing degree the state created by the Prophet. Islamic societies need the Quran, the Law and a severe ruler.
How do you see Islam working out a reconciliation with other religions and faiths on the subcontinent?
There can be no reconciliation. Islam is a religion of fixed laws. This goes contrary to everything in modern India. Also, the convert`s deepest impulse is the rejection of his origins.
Do you think India would be better off Balkanising into smaller, more manageable units?
This will be very foolish. People have not been free for very long and they can get carried away by various kinds of populism. The larger association enables these people to be saved from themselves. The people of Bihar and Tamil Nadu have constantly to be saved from themselves. Going further afield, the people of Iran might have been glad of some mechanism that enabled them to be saved from themselves, two or three years after their revolution.
Indians do brilliantly abroad but remain mediocre at home. What is the particular Indian neurosis that accounts for this?
People do well in Europe and in the US because the societies there require excellence. India as yet does not require excellence and people shrink accordingly.
You visit India often. What about it repels you the most?
The old deity of dirt and the modern deity of very brown motor smoke on the streets.
Is it true that by the end of every trip to India, you`re exhausted of the country and eager to return to England, your home? What tires you?
That brown smoke.
Did we make a mistake by going nuclear? What should India`s position be vis-a-vis the rest of the world?
It is important for India to operate at the limit of technology. India must never again fall behind. I actually think that the subcontinent is safer now.
Do you think over time the great Indian aesthetic-architecture, art, music-too has suffered? That India is no longer original in its artistic impulses?
This is actually a very important question. This is where we come face to face with the Indian calamity. When places like Vijayanagar and Orissa were laid low, all the creative talent would also have been destroyed. The current was broken. We have no means of knowing what architecture existed in the north before the Muslims. We can only be certain that there would have been splendours like Konarak and Kancheepuram. Since the current has been broken, there can be no revival. I am thinking principally of course of architecture. The Mughal buildings are foreign buildings. They are a carry-over from the architecture of Isfahan. In India they speak of the desert. They cover enormous spaces and they make me think of everything that was flattened to enable them to come up. Humayun`s tomb is, I suppose, the chastest and the best. The Taj is so wasteful, so decadent and in the end so cruel that it is painful to be there for very long. This is an extravagance that speaks of the blood of the people. And it is much worse if you think of the nation-building that was going on in Europe at the same time.But, in a way, to have no past is for an architect in India also a kind of liberation. He can`t do a Lutyens: a little Indian or Mughal motif here and there. The architect, having no past, is free to make the best buildings he can at this time. And that`s very hard to do.
So far as painting goes, it depends on patrons. If we have out Ajanta and places like that, painting came with the Mughals. They were patrons, the Rajput princes were patrons, the British for a short time up to 1820 were also patrons. So there is now no tradition of painting, no continuation of a particular sensibility. Painting as a result is all over the place in India. But there are patrons now; for the first time, art is a public affair and not something done in palaces; and the situation may right itself.
Who`d be your nominees for the three most significant Indians of this century? And why?
The first two are inescapable: Gandhi for awakening a country that had been torpid for centuries, Nehru for being a democrat and a humane man who did not abuse his power. I cannot think of a third figure of this stature and I would like instead in a spirit of mischief to nominate two buffoon figures who might stand as a warning to India of the dangers of mimicry. There is the half-witted Vinoba Bhave, the mimic mahatma. And there is Mr Basu in Calcutta, the mimic Marxist. I suppose when he goes his followers might want to embalm him like Lenin and put him on show in the Maidan.
Yo, man! Here is something for you to chew on. Now you can quote VS Naipaul, with all the authority that the Nobel Prize bestows on him, on Gandhi. Thank me, Yasser, thank me.
Christianity Didn`t Damage India Like Islam
Widely regarded as the world`s greatest living writer in English, Trinidad-born Sir Vidiadhar talks to Tarun J. Tejpal in what he claims is his ``last`` interview on India
India has a fractured past and a fissured present. What do you think is India`s future? Is it a civilisation in decay?
``Fractured past``is too polite a way to describe India`s calamitous millennium. The millennium began with the Muslim invasions and the grinding down of the Hindu-Buddhist culture of the north. This is such a big and bad event that people still have to find polite, destiny-defying ways of speaking about it. In art books and history books, people write of the Muslims ``arriving`` in India, as though the Muslims came on a tourist bus and went away again.
The Muslim view of their conquest of India is a truer one. They speak of the triumph of the faith, the destruction of idols and temples, the loot, the carting away of the local people as slaves, so cheap and numerous that they were being sold for a few rupees. The architectural evidence-the absence of Hindu monuments in the north-is convincing enough. This conquest was unlike any other that had gone before. There are no Hindu records of this period. Defeated people never write their history. The victors write the history. The victors were Muslims. For people on the other side it is a period of darkness. Indian history is written about as a matter of rulers and kingdoms shifting and changing. This is why it all seems petty and boring to read and hard to remember. But there is a larger and more tragic and more illuminating theme. That theme is the grinding down of Hindu India. Let us consider two late dates. In 1565, the year after the birth of Shakespeare, Vijayanagar in the south is destroyed and its great capital city laid waste. In 1592, the terrible Akbar ravages Orissa in the east. This means that while a country like England is preparing for greatness under its great queen, old India, in its sixth century of retreat, is still being reduced to nonentity.
The wealth and creativity, the artisans and architects of the kingdoms of Vijayanagar and Orissa would have been destroyed, their light put out. Those regions are still now among the poorest in India. The theme of the last two or three centuries of the millennium-with the Sikhs, the Maharashtrians, and, above all, the British-has been one of slow recovery. This is of course looking at it from the Hindu side. The Muslims see it as a period of decay. Your three books on India summed up three separate aspects of India-An Area of Darkness, A Wounded Civilisation and A Million Mutinies Now. In a sense these are the negatives. What are the positives that help India hang together?
We are not born with full knowledge and people of my background were granted very little of it at school. Writing is a process of learning. The writer writes himself into an understanding of his world and it has taken me many years and much writing to arrive at the understanding which I now have. Somerset Maugham said something like that about his time as a playwright. He said he felt he should apologise to the public for practising on them. My Indian books were written over a period of 27 years. An Area of Darkness is a personal book. A book of shock and concern. A Wounded Civilisation deals with the beginnings of my understandings of the effects of the invasions. A Million Mutinies Now is about a country more than ever like India at present: a country in revolt at many levels, a country, in fact, beginning to deal with its bad past. I don`t think of it as a negative book.
You reckon that India`s civilisational wholeness was shattered by the incursions of Islam and then Christianity. What do you make of the school of thought that asserts these invasions, and later influences, actually enriched Indian culture and life?
Here again I find in the question an element of political politeness. Christianity did not damage India the way Islam had. There are two sides to Christianity in India. There is the fine source of the New Learning that came with the British. There is another, more petty Christianity that came as the personal faith of the rulers and then the missionaries.
When you talk of Islam`s enriching of Indian culture, you are thinking of things like the food and the music and the poetry. But there is a profounder thing to be said. The two great revealed religions, Islam and Christianity, have altered the world forever, and we all, whatever our faith, walk in their light. Over and above their theology, these religions gave the world social ideas-brotherhood, charity, the feeling of man for man-which we now all take for granted. They are the basis of our political ideas and our ideas of morality. Those ideas didn`t exist before, not in the classical world, not in Hinduism or Buddhism.It may be that these two revealed religions have done their work and have little more to offer. But that`s another matter.
What in your opinion is the most debilitating thing about the Hindu way of life?
The philosophical idea of the beauty of surrender, made much worse by the centuries of defeat, and expressed today in the widespread feeling that men should not get above themselves, that men should not make too many demands.
And what is the most enriching?
I feel nailed to the mast of your questions. I have to think about this one. But it isn`t the way my mind works.
Do you think the Gandhian prescription, harking back to an ascetic and pure past, has proven a mistake? Do you think Gandhi, and all he stood for, has resulted in a schizophrenic India, trapped in hypocrisies?
Gandhi shouldn`t be considered as laying down a prescription for anything. He was uneducated and never a thinker. He is an historical figure. He came at a particular moment; he turned all his drawbacks into religion; and he used religion to awaken the country in a way that none of the educated leaders could have done. He has absolutely no message today. People talk too much about Gandhi and study him too little. His first book, Hind Swaraj, written at white heat in two weeks in 1909, is so nonsensical it would curl the hair of even the most devoted admirer. I don`t know Indians who actually read Gandhi. They take from him some vague idea of a great redeeming holiness and they are free ignore the practical side-Gandhi the hater of dirt, the hater of public defecation. That last is still very much an Indian sport. In fact, the Gandhian idea of piety and a very holy poverty is used now to excuse the dirt of the cities, the shoddiness of the architecture. By some inversion, Indians have used the very idea of Gandhi to turn dirt and backwardness into much-loved deities.
At the same time, would you agree that were it not for a modern cosmopolitan leader like Nehru, India would have had trouble establishing itself as a secular democracy?
It is India`s luck that-unlike, say, revolutionary Iran-Gandhi never was responsible for the running of the country. Full tribute has to be paid to Nehru and the others for establishing and extending in independence the British-given liberal institutions.
What do you make of the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty? Providing continuity and stability or enfeebling the democratic process and the Congress?
We mustn`t waste too much time talking about that. The position of India in 1947 was roughly like the position of the Spanish South American countries after the withdrawal of Spain in about 1810. The big question for many people at that time-the question leading very often to a civil war, which still in some places goes on-the big question was: ``Who among the local people is now going to rule us?``The Nehru dynasty provided this assurance for India for a long time.
India was lucky to have them but now that democratic institutions have to some extent taken root India no longer needs them. A liberal dynasty like that in a country like Yugoslavia would have greatly helped that unhappy country.
Of all Indian prime ministers, Indira Gandhi remains the greatest enigma. What is your judgement on her: a tough purposeful leader or a wrecker of all national institutions?
To some extent she was created by Indian need.
Though you grew up in faraway Trinidad, two generations removed from India, you carry a lot of India around in you. Where in your personality do you think is it most apparent?
A writer should never review himself. It is really for other people to say. Also, how has your being Indian shaped you as a man and a writer, particularly the latter? It has been fundamental. I was born in 1932. So I was always concerned about the independence movement. I was very soon aware that our small Indian community in Trinidad had very little political protection. The easy way out would have been to complain about British imperialism. I preferred to look inwards, to find out why a country like India had been so helpless and so indifferent to its people. That was where my writing began. That was my quest. Even my Islamic books have been part of that same quest.
What do you think of the Hindu resurgence that has been taking place in India over the last decade? Do you think it`s a dangerous militancy that will eventually destroy India`s secular character?
You have asked a loaded question. You say that India has a secular character, which is historically unsound. You say that Hindu militancy is dangerous. Dangerous or not, it is a necessary corrective to the history I have been talking about. It is a creative force and it will prove to be so.
Do you think an unpartitioned India would have worked? Why?
No. As soon as the poet Iqbal, the convert, had made his speech calling for a separate state, that state more or less became inevitable. And considering the Islamic movements of the last 30 years, nearly all the energy of an unpartitioned India would have fruitlessly gone into holding itself together.
Why is it that Pakistan so easily slips into martial/dictatorial ways, while democracy is never threatened in India?
West Pakistan was not particularly well educated. It had almost no political thinkers. It had had only about 90 years of British rule and institutions. It was easy for those institutions to be brushed aside. Jinnah was in many ways an attractive, secular man, but the snare of the Islamic movement he unleashed was like the snare of the Islamic movement in Iran. It assumed that out of a perfect Islam everything would flow: good institutions, good laws and a model citizenry. There was no need to think further; everything would come with the faith.
They were also converts and therefore fanatical. Among Arabs, there can be people like the Syrian poet Adonis for whom Islam is only an aspect of his Mediterranean identity. The convert doesn`t have that kind of security. It is also worth remembering that Islamic societies are not democratic in the modern way. They reflect to an amazing degree the state created by the Prophet. Islamic societies need the Quran, the Law and a severe ruler.
How do you see Islam working out a reconciliation with other religions and faiths on the subcontinent?
There can be no reconciliation. Islam is a religion of fixed laws. This goes contrary to everything in modern India. Also, the convert`s deepest impulse is the rejection of his origins.
Do you think India would be better off Balkanising into smaller, more manageable units?
This will be very foolish. People have not been free for very long and they can get carried away by various kinds of populism. The larger association enables these people to be saved from themselves. The people of Bihar and Tamil Nadu have constantly to be saved from themselves. Going further afield, the people of Iran might have been glad of some mechanism that enabled them to be saved from themselves, two or three years after their revolution.
Indians do brilliantly abroad but remain mediocre at home. What is the particular Indian neurosis that accounts for this?
People do well in Europe and in the US because the societies there require excellence. India as yet does not require excellence and people shrink accordingly.
You visit India often. What about it repels you the most?
The old deity of dirt and the modern deity of very brown motor smoke on the streets.
Is it true that by the end of every trip to India, you`re exhausted of the country and eager to return to England, your home? What tires you?
That brown smoke.
Did we make a mistake by going nuclear? What should India`s position be vis-a-vis the rest of the world?
It is important for India to operate at the limit of technology. India must never again fall behind. I actually think that the subcontinent is safer now.
Do you think over time the great Indian aesthetic-architecture, art, music-too has suffered? That India is no longer original in its artistic impulses?
This is actually a very important question. This is where we come face to face with the Indian calamity. When places like Vijayanagar and Orissa were laid low, all the creative talent would also have been destroyed. The current was broken. We have no means of knowing what architecture existed in the north before the Muslims. We can only be certain that there would have been splendours like Konarak and Kancheepuram. Since the current has been broken, there can be no revival. I am thinking principally of course of architecture. The Mughal buildings are foreign buildings. They are a carry-over from the architecture of Isfahan. In India they speak of the desert. They cover enormous spaces and they make me think of everything that was flattened to enable them to come up. Humayun`s tomb is, I suppose, the chastest and the best. The Taj is so wasteful, so decadent and in the end so cruel that it is painful to be there for very long. This is an extravagance that speaks of the blood of the people. And it is much worse if you think of the nation-building that was going on in Europe at the same time.But, in a way, to have no past is for an architect in India also a kind of liberation. He can`t do a Lutyens: a little Indian or Mughal motif here and there. The architect, having no past, is free to make the best buildings he can at this time. And that`s very hard to do.
So far as painting goes, it depends on patrons. If we have out Ajanta and places like that, painting came with the Mughals. They were patrons, the Rajput princes were patrons, the British for a short time up to 1820 were also patrons. So there is now no tradition of painting, no continuation of a particular sensibility. Painting as a result is all over the place in India. But there are patrons now; for the first time, art is a public affair and not something done in palaces; and the situation may right itself.
Who`d be your nominees for the three most significant Indians of this century? And why?
The first two are inescapable: Gandhi for awakening a country that had been torpid for centuries, Nehru for being a democrat and a humane man who did not abuse his power. I cannot think of a third figure of this stature and I would like instead in a spirit of mischief to nominate two buffoon figures who might stand as a warning to India of the dangers of mimicry. There is the half-witted Vinoba Bhave, the mimic mahatma. And there is Mr Basu in Calcutta, the mimic Marxist. I suppose when he goes his followers might want to embalm him like Lenin and put him on show in the Maidan.
#85 Posted by ZafarA on February 17, 2002 2:30:40 pm
Reply Veeresh, Aakar
Aakar: ``actually jai bandra. don`t care so much about the rest of maharashtra.``
Poor Ghatkopat. So far from God, so close to the airport...
Veeresh:``(For those of you from Delhi, it took me three hours to drive from Rohini to DefCol. Last night. After midnight. Two hours to clear the stretch from Zakhira to Dhaula Kuan.)``
Unkilji, if you had properly spent Valentine`s day offering prayers and engaged in family oriented pursuits aise kabhi nahin hotha. Please ask Aakar Bhai to send you a copy of Samna where all these things are clearly explained. NAMASTE! Zafar
Aakar: ``actually jai bandra. don`t care so much about the rest of maharashtra.``
Poor Ghatkopat. So far from God, so close to the airport...
Veeresh:``(For those of you from Delhi, it took me three hours to drive from Rohini to DefCol. Last night. After midnight. Two hours to clear the stretch from Zakhira to Dhaula Kuan.)``
Unkilji, if you had properly spent Valentine`s day offering prayers and engaged in family oriented pursuits aise kabhi nahin hotha. Please ask Aakar Bhai to send you a copy of Samna where all these things are clearly explained. NAMASTE! Zafar
#84 Posted by roohi on February 17, 2002 2:30:40 pm
Delhite A-Z with emphasis on khana that as a desi stuck in america i`ve been missing even more after reading about jee jams (g-jams) in the last A-Z someone wrote here ...
A ¡V amrood, aloo tikki and aampapad
B ¡V bhutta (roasted), biryani and ber picked off the bush on ridge road
C ¡V chola bhatura from K-Nags
D ¡V dahi bhalle and dal fry in a dhaba ¡V the real one, or the one in Claridges
E ¡V ek plate of aloo tikki, chola bhatoora or dahi bhalle in a dhaba :-)
F ¡V falooda with my kulfi (what is that famous place in K Bagh ¡K?)
G ¡V ganne ka ras, g-jams, golgappas and gajar ka halwa
H ¡V hare channe or holle eaten right off the plant
I ¡V ice cream at india gate ¡K predates even nirulas
J ¡V jamun eaten right after they fall off the trees at india gate
K ¡V kulchas, kababs, *kakdi * with nimboo & namak and kulhad (the only way to have chai in a train)
L ¡V laddos and lassi
M ¡V matter ki chaat and makke ki roti both things bombayites seem unaware of
N ¡V nimbo pani at PG women¡¦s hostel in DU
O ¡V oh to be eating this stuff ƒ¼
P ¡V paronthas as puppies (punjabi yuppies) would say from pranthe wali gali in chandini chowk ¡V we usually consumed stacks of these after trousseau shopping for my various cousins and sisters weddings at RCKC (ram chandra krishan chandra ka sari shop) in chandini chowk
Q ¡V qilas ¡V purana, lal and all the others
R ¡V rumali rotis, rajma chawal, rasgolla from bengali market and roohafza
S ¡V sarson ka saag, shakarkandi ki chaat and that place in Sunder Nagar where if you are a dipsite you would surely have eaten stacks of stuff
T ¡V tikkas even better than the tikkis
U ¡V u-specials to DU stuck in traffic on roshanara road
V ¡V vadas in vasant vihar
W ¡V wot are you saying yaar !
Y ¡V Yaar ¡V the way delhites like to end all comments
Z ¡V zeera as in jal zeera
A ¡V amrood, aloo tikki and aampapad
B ¡V bhutta (roasted), biryani and ber picked off the bush on ridge road
C ¡V chola bhatura from K-Nags
D ¡V dahi bhalle and dal fry in a dhaba ¡V the real one, or the one in Claridges
E ¡V ek plate of aloo tikki, chola bhatoora or dahi bhalle in a dhaba :-)
F ¡V falooda with my kulfi (what is that famous place in K Bagh ¡K?)
G ¡V ganne ka ras, g-jams, golgappas and gajar ka halwa
H ¡V hare channe or holle eaten right off the plant
I ¡V ice cream at india gate ¡K predates even nirulas
J ¡V jamun eaten right after they fall off the trees at india gate
K ¡V kulchas, kababs, *kakdi * with nimboo & namak and kulhad (the only way to have chai in a train)
L ¡V laddos and lassi
M ¡V matter ki chaat and makke ki roti both things bombayites seem unaware of
N ¡V nimbo pani at PG women¡¦s hostel in DU
O ¡V oh to be eating this stuff ƒ¼
P ¡V paronthas as puppies (punjabi yuppies) would say from pranthe wali gali in chandini chowk ¡V we usually consumed stacks of these after trousseau shopping for my various cousins and sisters weddings at RCKC (ram chandra krishan chandra ka sari shop) in chandini chowk
Q ¡V qilas ¡V purana, lal and all the others
R ¡V rumali rotis, rajma chawal, rasgolla from bengali market and roohafza
S ¡V sarson ka saag, shakarkandi ki chaat and that place in Sunder Nagar where if you are a dipsite you would surely have eaten stacks of stuff
T ¡V tikkas even better than the tikkis
U ¡V u-specials to DU stuck in traffic on roshanara road
V ¡V vadas in vasant vihar
W ¡V wot are you saying yaar !
Y ¡V Yaar ¡V the way delhites like to end all comments
Z ¡V zeera as in jal zeera
#83 Posted by Ras Siddiqui on February 16, 2002 7:41:56 pm
St. Valentine move over. Basant is here..
From The News International (Jang Group) Sunday
The people`s festival
The writer is a Lahore-based columnist and a
well-known journalist
masood_news@hotmail.com
Every time someone wants to have some fun in Pakistan, frowning eyes materialise out of the depressing gloom and eyebrows climb into the skies. Ever since Terry Thomas and his motley crew descended from the barracks and decided to force morality down every one`s throat and up every one`s you-know-what, there has been no shortage of moralisers and preachers who have ranted and raved at the people. The poor people, who are whipped with bad news faster than Mian Nawaz Sharif can belch after camel stew, hold their heads in bewilderment as more morality and repentance rents the air and sinners are reminded of the punishments that await their arrival in hell.
There is not much to celebrate in Pakistan given the country`s natural abundance of bad news. It seems even the elements are constantly conspiring to undo us. If it rains, it rains and rains and rains till we have rainwater gushing out of our ears. If it doesn`t rain, it just doesn`t rain. Day after day the sun beats down with the same single-minded purpose as Benazir demonstrated when the word money was mentioned within three miles of her ears. The earth is scorched, the grass turns to sand and the rivers, which at most times of the year bear striking resemblance to their poor relations, the gutters, simply shrink into dirty, murky streams that cannot even move. Either there is no water or there is too much of it. Either there is an invasion of every living variety known to mankind, of bugs that defy death and lay waste entire fields or there is a bumper crop that nobody wants to buy. When oil prices plummet worldwide, they make a striking recovery in Pakistan and climb higher. Every single tremor in the world hits giga time on the lowly scales of the country and if the dollar wobbles, stock exchanges close down and everyone thinks of ten easy ways to commit suicide. Double-dealing is a refined and finely honed craft that is practiced by every Pakistani who is able to walk straight and the presence of well-maintained luxuriant beards or the tell-tale piety branding in the middle of the forehead simply imply that the sting operation is being played at a very high level. Whoever can manage it, manages to cheat whomever they can. It is not dog eat dog -- it is worse and it is nationally available all the year round.
Those who survive these and many other equally deadly virus attacks of life in the land of the pure are robbed at will by anyone who has no time for doing things the right way. The people are cheated day in and day out by anyone who has figured out that two and two makes four and better still if half of that is ill gotten and not yours in the first place. Servants steal anything they can steal. They steal food, sugar, salt, tea, spices, oil, detergents, soap, and fruit -- the list stretches to Texas where Bush flourishes. When they are not stealing the above, they are pilfering knives, forks, spoons, plates, pots, pans, cups, saucers and anything that is mute and cannot raise an alarm when snitched. Drivers, if you have the variety, cheat on gasoline, service charges, cleaning cloth -- anything that the vehicle could possibly require. If checked and a barrier placed between them and the spirit of free enterprise that they seemingly relish, they wear faces that are a few feet long and perpetually in sulk mode. The wonderful thing is that not only are the robbers quite happy robbing you, but are actually piqued should you question their career calling. Although the phrase about suckers being born every minute is pretty old, it is rather startling to realise that it has universal application here and given the sensational birth rate that we have achieved in such a short time, the number of suckers has to be an all time record, likely to remain intact till the cows come home -- provided someone doesn`t hijack them enroute -- a possibility that is eternally likely. Therefore, with so many practitioners of the refined arts floating about, the chances of being cheated, mugged, robbed, murdered or all four thing simultaneously are brighter than Mian Shahbaz Sharif dome on a bright June day.
Against such a cheery backdrop, the Pakis venture out daily, having tossed their garbage happily into their neighbour`s drive. They are mentally prepared to be done in before they have taken ten steps and in a sense, they are quite ready for it -- a kind of inner stoicism sets in faster than rigor mortis in the city morgue -- no it is not the hospitals as some believe them to be. In this depressing gloom, add the holier-than -thou pundits, who break every rule in bestiality and other things equally abominable yet never tire of invoking the wrath of the Lord on those who sin and don`t fall in a heap and repent. The high dosages of this convenient morality take heavy toll of ordinary people who simply wish to lead their lives the way they feel they should and can. Because being happy is a state of sin, anything that the people might remotely enjoy, is frowned and censured. The festival of Basant might have been hijacked by the multinationals and dressed up to look more like a starlet than what it used to be before the megabucks rolled in, but in essence it is a season of high spirits and bonhomie and the people of this land -- and all those who find their way to Lahore, deserve more than we all understand. It might send prices of everything skyrocketing and getting a hotel room would be just as difficult as finding an honest cop, and the power cuts can even send Russian fridges into convulsions, but at the end of it, the noise, the fireworks, the raucous music, the sirens, the hooters and the yelling is all welcome. One can happily applaud the men and women who simply dress up simply to see and be seen; and it doesn`t matter if the women look startlingly like cheap extras out to make it to stardom and the men having spent hours manicuring and fine tuning their exteriors, because all they are desperately trying is to have a good time where good times are taboo.
So while the authorities cloak Basant every year with various kinds of decent garb and make many efforts to take away the `Hindu` colour out of this festival, so that the moral censorship is not allowed to rob the people of some of the few things they can still claim as their own, the Lahoris more or less give a damn and simply go ahead. Every year, the moral ostriches moan and groan and exhort the Good Lord to rain thunderbolts on the merrymakers and every year, Basant happens. It is a festival of the people and it crosses all frontiers -- including the one of noise. It is one of the few occasions in our chequered public life where the poor have just as much fun as the rich and while we who never venture into the squalid streets of the old city find it trendy to be there, right inside, the locals, while wearing half-amused looks, still open their hearts and make it the one special day in the year. Wish we could Basantise Eid one of these days!
#82 Posted by rsridhar on February 16, 2002 6:25:17 pm
re:Reply #: 10
Subroto,
Thanks for your informative post. Believe it or not, i have bookmarked it. Who knows when these things may be useful!
When i was in Bombay (many moons ago), trying to start (unsuccessfully)my own private practice as a doctor, i was shocked (coming from Delhi as i did)to hear the gross misuse of Hindi. It took me quite sometime to figure out, for eg, what the following meant: `` kahe ko khalee peelee lafda karta hain`` which literally means ``why are you unnecessarily creating trouble``. Bombaywallahs have done to Hindi what Bengalees have done to English (no offfense intended!).
Sridhar
Subroto,
Thanks for your informative post. Believe it or not, i have bookmarked it. Who knows when these things may be useful!
When i was in Bombay (many moons ago), trying to start (unsuccessfully)my own private practice as a doctor, i was shocked (coming from Delhi as i did)to hear the gross misuse of Hindi. It took me quite sometime to figure out, for eg, what the following meant: `` kahe ko khalee peelee lafda karta hain`` which literally means ``why are you unnecessarily creating trouble``. Bombaywallahs have done to Hindi what Bengalees have done to English (no offfense intended!).
Sridhar
#81 Posted by anNy on February 16, 2002 6:25:17 pm
vereesh
karachi valentines saw the performance of a play organized, directed, choreographed and acted by 18 to 21 year old boys and girls from a variety of institutions after which everbody danced to U2 and later one wonderful young man gave all us girls bright yellow sun flowers as we filed out of the auditirium
our sunflowers and men are better than yours
karachi valentines saw the performance of a play organized, directed, choreographed and acted by 18 to 21 year old boys and girls from a variety of institutions after which everbody danced to U2 and later one wonderful young man gave all us girls bright yellow sun flowers as we filed out of the auditirium
our sunflowers and men are better than yours
#80 Posted by Banjaara on February 16, 2002 6:25:17 pm
Romair # 49
``How exactly can you justify that you, and, ``many like you`` have reached this status of being, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground`` in comparison to anyone else.``
Because HE says so..
``How exactly can you justify that you, and, ``many like you`` have reached this status of being, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground`` in comparison to anyone else.``
Because HE says so..
#79 Posted by harimau on February 16, 2002 4:14:51 pm
Ref aakar patel #: 75
[no rose petals, we called the cops. couple of them still sitting outside today. saamna (the old man`s paper) still raving and ranting over `security breach` (we had a young girl deliver plastic hearts and flowers and valentine`s card) at his residence.]
No guts, I see. Tehelka.com would have delivered the girl, instead of or along with the roses.
I presume the thug still lives at Kala Nagar.
[no rose petals, we called the cops. couple of them still sitting outside today. saamna (the old man`s paper) still raving and ranting over `security breach` (we had a young girl deliver plastic hearts and flowers and valentine`s card) at his residence.]
No guts, I see. Tehelka.com would have delivered the girl, instead of or along with the roses.
I presume the thug still lives at Kala Nagar.
#78 Posted by harimau on February 16, 2002 4:14:51 pm
Ref ylh #: 72
[That last post was not for this board.]
That applies to all of your posts and any of the boards in any combination whatsoever.
[That last post was not for this board.]
That applies to all of your posts and any of the boards in any combination whatsoever.
#77 Posted by aakar on February 16, 2002 4:14:51 pm
zafar al-talib
re `aap kaun hai?`
friend of rehan`s, ocassional chowk contributor and bandra resident.
jai hind jai maharashtra
aakar
actually jai bandra. don`t care so much about the rest of maharashtra.
re `aap kaun hai?`
friend of rehan`s, ocassional chowk contributor and bandra resident.
jai hind jai maharashtra
aakar
actually jai bandra. don`t care so much about the rest of maharashtra.
#76 Posted by veeresh on February 16, 2002 4:14:51 pm
Yes, and how did they celebrate Valentine`s Day in Karachi, then? Did they have traffic jams? Did they enforce the seat-belt law? Most of all, did they do anything about driving around without tail-lamps?
I tell you . . . this is most distressing.
Even our traffic jams are better than yours.
(For those of you from Delhi, it took me three hours to drive from Rohini to DefCol. Last night. After midnight. Two hours to clear the stretch from Zakhira to Dhaula Kuan.)
#75 Posted by ZafarA on February 16, 2002 3:07:56 am
Reply rehanhasanansari # 68, Aakar
``zafar, aakar ka makaan dekho gay to drool karo gay...``
I drool enough as it is, but thank you for your kind thoughts.
Article wasn`t bad either, but let me add my voice to Lajwanti`s in this matter - love interest honi chahiye, pictures (pref colour), and glossary ki tho sakhth zaroorath hai. Please keep us, your audience, in mind. Yeh mensa vensa jaisi koi faltu jagah nahin hai.
Aakar - I was busy condescending to RSax - aap kaun hain?
``zafar, aakar ka makaan dekho gay to drool karo gay...``
I drool enough as it is, but thank you for your kind thoughts.
Article wasn`t bad either, but let me add my voice to Lajwanti`s in this matter - love interest honi chahiye, pictures (pref colour), and glossary ki tho sakhth zaroorath hai. Please keep us, your audience, in mind. Yeh mensa vensa jaisi koi faltu jagah nahin hai.
Aakar - I was busy condescending to RSax - aap kaun hain?
#74 Posted by aakar on February 16, 2002 3:07:56 am
rehan #68
no rose petals, we called the cops. couple of them still sitting outside today. saamna (the old man`s paper) still raving and ranting over `security breach` (we had a young girl deliver plastic hearts and flowers and valentine`s card) at his residence.
anyway, write on.
aakar
no rose petals, we called the cops. couple of them still sitting outside today. saamna (the old man`s paper) still raving and ranting over `security breach` (we had a young girl deliver plastic hearts and flowers and valentine`s card) at his residence.
anyway, write on.
aakar
#73 Posted by ylh on February 16, 2002 3:07:56 am
Musharraf`s Visit to the US, Key addresses.
http://www.c-span.org/search/index.asp?
http://www.c-span.org/search/index.asp?
#72 Posted by sigalph235 on February 16, 2002 3:07:56 am
re aisha 56
Thanks for the kind words. I believe in your and Yasser`s vision of Pakistan because frankly there is no future of Pakistan without that vision. Intemperate both of you can be(and I have mentioned it a few times before) but irresponsible you are certainly not. Don`t worry about what detractors say; the Quaid-e-Azam was called similar things and worse. I`m sure you recall the old Urdu couplet that went something like
Rang laati hai hena patthar pe pis jaane ke bad.
Thanks for the kind words. I believe in your and Yasser`s vision of Pakistan because frankly there is no future of Pakistan without that vision. Intemperate both of you can be(and I have mentioned it a few times before) but irresponsible you are certainly not. Don`t worry about what detractors say; the Quaid-e-Azam was called similar things and worse. I`m sure you recall the old Urdu couplet that went something like
Rang laati hai hena patthar pe pis jaane ke bad.
#70 Posted by rehanhasanansar on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
On the recent crisis, the Pakistani people won two victories, killed two birds with one stone. Here is how:
a. Victory over Islamist thugs: Islamist rogues no longer sent to Kashmir. Therefore, same rogues no longer important to military government within Pakistan. Predicted Result: Stock of Islamist rogues within Pakistan goes down (admittedly, result remains to be seen).
b. Victory over Hindutva thugs: Hindutva thugs still living in dream world after 1971. Prime Minister publicly declares time has come for ``decisive war`` with Pakistan. Chowk Indians start talking about marching into Pakistan (as happened in Junagadh, Goa, Hyderabad). ``Great Power`` India masses one million man army on borders. Sends warships over. Hindutva thugs dancing in streets. But...Musharaff releases three missiles, one after another. Declares willingness to use nukes if needed. Hindutva thugs fall silent. Change propoganda line to start talking about ``international pressures`` forcing Pakistan to call off the Islamist thugs.
Final result: Pakistan saved from both Islamist thugs and Hindutva thugs and nationalist thugs in India.
Now tell me someone that God is not in heaven, watching out for Pakistanis. You may proceed to heap insults on me now. Wont change reality.
a. Victory over Islamist thugs: Islamist rogues no longer sent to Kashmir. Therefore, same rogues no longer important to military government within Pakistan. Predicted Result: Stock of Islamist rogues within Pakistan goes down (admittedly, result remains to be seen).
b. Victory over Hindutva thugs: Hindutva thugs still living in dream world after 1971. Prime Minister publicly declares time has come for ``decisive war`` with Pakistan. Chowk Indians start talking about marching into Pakistan (as happened in Junagadh, Goa, Hyderabad). ``Great Power`` India masses one million man army on borders. Sends warships over. Hindutva thugs dancing in streets. But...Musharaff releases three missiles, one after another. Declares willingness to use nukes if needed. Hindutva thugs fall silent. Change propoganda line to start talking about ``international pressures`` forcing Pakistan to call off the Islamist thugs.
Final result: Pakistan saved from both Islamist thugs and Hindutva thugs and nationalist thugs in India.
Now tell me someone that God is not in heaven, watching out for Pakistanis. You may proceed to heap insults on me now. Wont change reality.
#69 Posted by saminashah on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Rehan,
This is really good, evocative writing. Sorry I came to it later than usual.
Is this part of a larger work or a short essay piece?
regards
This is really good, evocative writing. Sorry I came to it later than usual.
Is this part of a larger work or a short essay piece?
regards
#68 Posted by Prem on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
re: Ansari # 44
AAmir,
I am rediscovering the finer things in life...and Caron Ann Duffy is one of the brightest jewels I have found.
She was a lucky find. A friend suggested I look at her ``Mean Time.`` I borrowed the book from a local library, only to decide within a few minutes that a book like that ought to be purchased, not borrowed. Even though the volume has been out of print, I was fortunate to obtain a used copy for myself.
AAmir,
I am rediscovering the finer things in life...and Caron Ann Duffy is one of the brightest jewels I have found.
She was a lucky find. A friend suggested I look at her ``Mean Time.`` I borrowed the book from a local library, only to decide within a few minutes that a book like that ought to be purchased, not borrowed. Even though the volume has been out of print, I was fortunate to obtain a used copy for myself.
#67 Posted by ylh on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Shammi,
Are you familiar with Iqbal`s writings on `Khudi` or the philosophy of Ego?
Slink,
Thanks for your kind post and wishes.
About Sheema Kirmani:
1) At Yale the topic of discussion was `Peace between Pakistan and India` presented by International Conflict resolution group and not dance in Pakistan so her diatribe against the so called `Laws` in Pakistan was irrelevant. She became the laughing stock of the Yale`s student body. I didn`t need to insult her, eventhough when I spoke, her answers to my queries were very embarrassing for her. Instead of answering my questions like a mature educated person, she tried to take shots at me by first asking me the name of my high school in Pakistan and then declaring that she hadn`t heard of it. At the dinner afterwards Sunil the president of Indian Students association there came up to me and apologized for Sheema Kirmani`s behavior. Imagine that, an Indian apologizing for the behavior of my fellow Pakistani.
2)She was not talking about Zia times, she claimed it was going on today. Had she said Zia times and blamed it on Zia, I would have been her biggest supporter but she went on a tirade against Pakistan. To me Nation comes first, so I will expose anyone who lies about Pakistan to gain mileage for their social agenda, no matter how noble that agenda may or may not be.
3) Her lie about the `exile` of Naheed Siddiqui was hilarious.
Whatever she might have done for Pakistan and women`s rights in Pakistan comes to naught when one takes into account the deliberate hate mongering she indulged in that day. People like her should understand that not everyone can reach the stature of Asma Jehangir or Hina Jelani though they are not without faults either.
Are you familiar with Iqbal`s writings on `Khudi` or the philosophy of Ego?
Slink,
Thanks for your kind post and wishes.
About Sheema Kirmani:
1) At Yale the topic of discussion was `Peace between Pakistan and India` presented by International Conflict resolution group and not dance in Pakistan so her diatribe against the so called `Laws` in Pakistan was irrelevant. She became the laughing stock of the Yale`s student body. I didn`t need to insult her, eventhough when I spoke, her answers to my queries were very embarrassing for her. Instead of answering my questions like a mature educated person, she tried to take shots at me by first asking me the name of my high school in Pakistan and then declaring that she hadn`t heard of it. At the dinner afterwards Sunil the president of Indian Students association there came up to me and apologized for Sheema Kirmani`s behavior. Imagine that, an Indian apologizing for the behavior of my fellow Pakistani.
2)She was not talking about Zia times, she claimed it was going on today. Had she said Zia times and blamed it on Zia, I would have been her biggest supporter but she went on a tirade against Pakistan. To me Nation comes first, so I will expose anyone who lies about Pakistan to gain mileage for their social agenda, no matter how noble that agenda may or may not be.
3) Her lie about the `exile` of Naheed Siddiqui was hilarious.
Whatever she might have done for Pakistan and women`s rights in Pakistan comes to naught when one takes into account the deliberate hate mongering she indulged in that day. People like her should understand that not everyone can reach the stature of Asma Jehangir or Hina Jelani though they are not without faults either.
#66 Posted by ylh on February 15, 2002 4:46:22 pm
Shammi,
Are you familiar with Iqbal`s writings on `Khudi` or the philosophy of Ego?
Slink,
Thanks for your kind post and wishes.
About Sheema Kirmani:
1) At Yale the topic of discussion was `Peace between Pakistan and India` presented by International Conflict resolution group and not dance in Pakistan so her diatribe against the so called `Laws` in Pakistan was unfounded. She became the laughing stock of the Yale`s student body. I didn`t need to insult her, eventhough when I spoke, her answers to my queries were very embarrassing for her. Instead of answering my questions like a mature educated person, she tried to take shots at me by first asking me the name of my high school in Pakistan and then declaring that she hadn`t heard of it. At the dinner afterwards Sunil the president of Indian Students association there came up to me and apologized for Sheema Kirmani`s behavior. Imagine that, an Indian apologizing for the behavior of my fellow Pakistani.
2)She was not talking about Zia times, she claimed it was going on today. Had she said Zia times and blamed it on Zia, I would have been her biggest supporter but she went on a tirade against Pakistan. To me Nation comes first, so I will expose anyone who lies about Pakistan to gain mileage for their social agenda, no matter how noble that agenda may or may not be.
3) Her lie about the `exile` of Naheed Siddiqui was hilarious.
Whatever she might have done for Pakistan and women`s rights in Pakistan comes to naught when one takes into account the deliberate hate mongering she indulged in that day. People like her should understand that not everyone can reach the stature of Asma Jehangir or Hina Jelani though they are not without faults either.
Are you familiar with Iqbal`s writings on `Khudi` or the philosophy of Ego?
Slink,
Thanks for your kind post and wishes.
About Sheema Kirmani:
1) At Yale the topic of discussion was `Peace between Pakistan and India` presented by International Conflict resolution group and not dance in Pakistan so her diatribe against the so called `Laws` in Pakistan was unfounded. She became the laughing stock of the Yale`s student body. I didn`t need to insult her, eventhough when I spoke, her answers to my queries were very embarrassing for her. Instead of answering my questions like a mature educated person, she tried to take shots at me by first asking me the name of my high school in Pakistan and then declaring that she hadn`t heard of it. At the dinner afterwards Sunil the president of Indian Students association there came up to me and apologized for Sheema Kirmani`s behavior. Imagine that, an Indian apologizing for the behavior of my fellow Pakistani.
2)She was not talking about Zia times, she claimed it was going on today. Had she said Zia times and blamed it on Zia, I would have been her biggest supporter but she went on a tirade against Pakistan. To me Nation comes first, so I will expose anyone who lies about Pakistan to gain mileage for their social agenda, no matter how noble that agenda may or may not be.
3) Her lie about the `exile` of Naheed Siddiqui was hilarious.
Whatever she might have done for Pakistan and women`s rights in Pakistan comes to naught when one takes into account the deliberate hate mongering she indulged in that day. People like her should understand that not everyone can reach the stature of Asma Jehangir or Hina Jelani though they are not without faults either.
#65 Posted by scout on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
hamzad afaqui #50,
i have to say that was much more innovative and interesting than rehan`s article.
i have to say that was much more innovative and interesting than rehan`s article.
#64 Posted by shammi on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
YLH
``...I do not have an extraordinary conception of my greatness...``
Actually, you do. Listen to Shankar, heed his advice, and you may one day turn out to be what you think you are today.
``...I do not have an extraordinary conception of my greatness...``
Actually, you do. Listen to Shankar, heed his advice, and you may one day turn out to be what you think you are today.
#63 Posted by aakar on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
zafar al-talib #60
being a ``hill road type`` (bandra west), as was my boss tariq ansari, i object to your condescension.
gheun tak, as balasaheb (whose goons incidentally have laid seige to our office as i write, over a valentine`s day story) would say.
aakar patel
being a ``hill road type`` (bandra west), as was my boss tariq ansari, i object to your condescension.
gheun tak, as balasaheb (whose goons incidentally have laid seige to our office as i write, over a valentine`s day story) would say.
aakar patel
#62 Posted by semipreciousme on February 15, 2002 11:20:07 am
ylh:
“Nevertheless what is wrong with KGS? Or Aitchison? Why must such elite institutions always be maligned by self proclaimed intellectuals and `liberals` like our own Mr. Rehan Ansari, who one can be sure off was brought into his life with a gold spoon in his mouth. These people are usually with an inherent guilt for their previlege.”
….an inherent guilt for their privilege??!?…. *snort *...i don’t know about kgs, but most (repeat most) aitchisonian guys are the most pretentious snobs who think that it’s their daddy’s wealth given right to do as they please…
“Nevertheless what is wrong with KGS? Or Aitchison? Why must such elite institutions always be maligned by self proclaimed intellectuals and `liberals` like our own Mr. Rehan Ansari, who one can be sure off was brought into his life with a gold spoon in his mouth. These people are usually with an inherent guilt for their previlege.”
….an inherent guilt for their privilege??!?…. *snort *...i don’t know about kgs, but most (repeat most) aitchisonian guys are the most pretentious snobs who think that it’s their daddy’s wealth given right to do as they please…
#61 Posted by slink on February 15, 2002 9:10:11 am
dear ylh,
this bits and piece reply thing is indeed very difficult to follow, but i`ve discovered this little thing called a mouse which allows me to scroll up and down ;)
i did read your whole post. my point was, since you are someone who still has the strength of your convictions, keep it in reserve for those who can do you and your convictions real damage, rather than people who generally have only as much impact on your life as you let them (like writers). of course, it goes without saying that i also need to take my own advice.
i am sure we agree on many things, not least of which is the belief that pakistan has great potential. and some amazing people. if you ever spent time with sheema kirmani, or were familiar with the work she has done as a dancer, a performer and an activist through tehrik-i-niswan, i think you would have done her greater honour than try to humiliate her at yale. she is right in that there are no purpose built auditoriums for the study and performance of classical dance (or any kind of dance), dancing WAS banned on television and at any public gathering (watch recent interviews of Naheed Siddiqi on PTV and you hear her refering those days), and as for her last point she was probably trying to say that sometimes in pakistan you could get shot for doing something disapproved of by the authorities. as is the case in many nations
tehrik-i-niswan brought street theatre to many parts of karachi and sindh. they have also used television and the press to further the causes of womens rights and development. their contribution has been significant and praiseworthy, and i think your dismissal of her as someone interested only in self glorification does you and your knowledge of the realities of pakistan no credit. sometimes we will agree, and sometimes we will disagree :)
this bits and piece reply thing is indeed very difficult to follow, but i`ve discovered this little thing called a mouse which allows me to scroll up and down ;)
i did read your whole post. my point was, since you are someone who still has the strength of your convictions, keep it in reserve for those who can do you and your convictions real damage, rather than people who generally have only as much impact on your life as you let them (like writers). of course, it goes without saying that i also need to take my own advice.
i am sure we agree on many things, not least of which is the belief that pakistan has great potential. and some amazing people. if you ever spent time with sheema kirmani, or were familiar with the work she has done as a dancer, a performer and an activist through tehrik-i-niswan, i think you would have done her greater honour than try to humiliate her at yale. she is right in that there are no purpose built auditoriums for the study and performance of classical dance (or any kind of dance), dancing WAS banned on television and at any public gathering (watch recent interviews of Naheed Siddiqi on PTV and you hear her refering those days), and as for her last point she was probably trying to say that sometimes in pakistan you could get shot for doing something disapproved of by the authorities. as is the case in many nations
tehrik-i-niswan brought street theatre to many parts of karachi and sindh. they have also used television and the press to further the causes of womens rights and development. their contribution has been significant and praiseworthy, and i think your dismissal of her as someone interested only in self glorification does you and your knowledge of the realities of pakistan no credit. sometimes we will agree, and sometimes we will disagree :)
#60 Posted by ZafarA on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Reply Rsax #: 51
“you delhiwallahs have a serious case of bombay envy...you guys are sneaking in everywhere...today it`s malabar hill, then it will be nariman point, then cuffe parade, then even juhu beach...what`s wrong with that connaught place or whatever it`s called?...”
Go home to Ghatkopat, you Hill Road Type! CP has been renamed after Rajiv or Indira (I forget which. Vaisai I suggested Chhatrapati Shivaji Place, but mera kaun suntha hai?)
“you delhiwallahs have a serious case of bombay envy...you guys are sneaking in everywhere...today it`s malabar hill, then it will be nariman point, then cuffe parade, then even juhu beach...what`s wrong with that connaught place or whatever it`s called?...”
Go home to Ghatkopat, you Hill Road Type! CP has been renamed after Rajiv or Indira (I forget which. Vaisai I suggested Chhatrapati Shivaji Place, but mera kaun suntha hai?)
#59 Posted by ylh on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
Romair,
My comment was in regard to the Pakistani Silent Majority led by Pervez Musharraf. Seems like the Indian ailment is infectious. Kindly read my post again. I do not have an extraordinary conception of my greatness, but I do have the staunchest faith in the ability of my nation.
Sincerely
YLH
My comment was in regard to the Pakistani Silent Majority led by Pervez Musharraf. Seems like the Indian ailment is infectious. Kindly read my post again. I do not have an extraordinary conception of my greatness, but I do have the staunchest faith in the ability of my nation.
Sincerely
YLH
#58 Posted by ylh on February 15, 2002 2:53:08 am
More in reply to Shandana:
Hope you don`t mind my answer in bits and pieces. I have work you see and thats the reason I am giving you answer in bits. If you read some of the
posts I have written you will realize that some of my favorite writers have very different world views (if not different views on Jinnah for whom
they all being reasonable people have a certain amount of respect) ... These writers/thinkers include the late Eqbal Ahmed, Salman Rushdie, Edward Said, our own chowk Veteran Farzana Versey, and Najam Sethi (well sethi and I prescribe to very similar world views so I don`t think thats an appropriate example) this should suffice to show that my anger against Mr.Rehan Ansari is not because of his goody goody wannabe southasian give up borders humanism, but the fact that he is masquerading as such, when he is really a very petty creature full of spite. His comment was neither a criticism nor an intellectually driven argument. It was a reflection was deep down ugliness which prompted him to single me out for attack. People like him are a dime a dozen.
I am open to dialogue and discussion on the lines outlined by Aisha Sarwari in her post. But I am not very tolerant of people fingering without reason and then leaving without defending their ill founded assertions. So I am waiting for the coward to pen a response. But he will not precisely for that reason.
Hope you don`t mind my answer in bits and pieces. I have work you see and thats the reason I am giving you answer in bits. If you read some of the
posts I have written you will realize that some of my favorite writers have very different world views (if not different views on Jinnah for whom
they all being reasonable people have a certain amount of respect) ... These writers/thinkers include the late Eqbal Ahmed, Salman Rushdie, Edward Said, our own chowk Veteran Farzana Versey, and Najam Sethi (well sethi and I prescribe to very similar world views so I don`t think thats an appropriate example) this should suffice to show that my anger against Mr.Rehan Ansari is not because of his goody goody wannabe southasian give up borders humanism, but the fact that he is masquerading as such, when he is really a very petty creature full of spite. His comment was neither a criticism nor an intellectually driven argument. It was a reflection was deep down ugliness which prompted him to single me out for attack. People like him are a dime a dozen.
I am open to dialogue and discussion on the lines outlined by Aisha Sarwari in her post. But I am not very tolerant of people fingering without reason and then leaving without defending their ill founded assertions. So I am waiting for the coward to pen a response. But he will not precisely for that reason.
#57 Posted by Romair on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
ylh #42: ``All three are scared of me and many like me. For they cannot beat us fair and square, since we are since we are intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground even if its a tight rope``
You are dangerously too sure of yourself. You are intellectually, morally and logically on the same ground as everyone else, in my opinion. There is nothing I have seen in your comments that would indicate otherwise. There are very very very few people in the world who are, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground,`` in comparison to people around. Infact, there are very few people who reach a higher plane in any one of these three areas, much less in all three areas together.
Unfortunately, there are far too many people in the world who think they have achieved this status. They start believing that the world, or their own surroundings, revolves around them. And they feel they are being attacked by everyone else. When actually, the rest of the world is trying to stop them from attacking it. Benazir is a good example of this.
Even Prophet Muhammad was forty years old or so, when generally it was accepted he was, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground.`` And that too only by his closest followers. Jinnah reached this status towards the end of his life (and even he was considered intellectually and thus logically superior to those around him; morally he was considered a normal person). Gandhi achieved this status late in life also (and he was genarlly considered morally at a higher plane; intetllectually and logically, he was considered to be just like everyone else). These individuals had a long track record of success. They changed the world.
How exactly can you justify that you, and, ``many like you`` have reached this status of being, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground`` in comparison to anyone else.
So this is a good time for a reality check for you, and others like you: You are in no way in a higher ground in comparison to anyone. You are on the same plane as anyone else. And I hope you will accept this. Otherwise, you will never be able to reach any kind of a of a higher ground, since you will never see your own faults. You will always project your own shortcomings onto other people, and blame them for attacking you.
You are dangerously too sure of yourself. You are intellectually, morally and logically on the same ground as everyone else, in my opinion. There is nothing I have seen in your comments that would indicate otherwise. There are very very very few people in the world who are, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground,`` in comparison to people around. Infact, there are very few people who reach a higher plane in any one of these three areas, much less in all three areas together.
Unfortunately, there are far too many people in the world who think they have achieved this status. They start believing that the world, or their own surroundings, revolves around them. And they feel they are being attacked by everyone else. When actually, the rest of the world is trying to stop them from attacking it. Benazir is a good example of this.
Even Prophet Muhammad was forty years old or so, when generally it was accepted he was, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground.`` And that too only by his closest followers. Jinnah reached this status towards the end of his life (and even he was considered intellectually and thus logically superior to those around him; morally he was considered a normal person). Gandhi achieved this status late in life also (and he was genarlly considered morally at a higher plane; intetllectually and logically, he was considered to be just like everyone else). These individuals had a long track record of success. They changed the world.
How exactly can you justify that you, and, ``many like you`` have reached this status of being, ``intellectually, morally and logically on a much higher ground`` in comparison to anyone else.
So this is a good time for a reality check for you, and others like you: You are in no way in a higher ground in comparison to anyone. You are on the same plane as anyone else. And I hope you will accept this. Otherwise, you will never be able to reach any kind of a of a higher ground, since you will never see your own faults. You will always project your own shortcomings onto other people, and blame them for attacking you.
#56 Posted by Lajwanti on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
Reply Rehanhasanansari # 33
“…I always find something strangely missing form what you write…”
I am talling you a nd talling you to put in glossry because many people are not understanding aap kay big big word and lumbay chauday sentebnce….do not angry, I am o nly advising as friend, ok?
(Aap love interest aur pictures bhee include kartay to fayedah hee fayedah…)
Best wushes. (1st Ipo sted by mstake on wrong bored. sory.)
“…I always find something strangely missing form what you write…”
I am talling you a nd talling you to put in glossry because many people are not understanding aap kay big big word and lumbay chauday sentebnce….do not angry, I am o nly advising as friend, ok?
(Aap love interest aur pictures bhee include kartay to fayedah hee fayedah…)
Best wushes. (1st Ipo sted by mstake on wrong bored. sory.)
#55 Posted by Aisha_Sarwari on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
Sigalph,
I am always encouraged and touched by your belief in us when the world around considers my kind intemperate and irresponsible.
Thank you.
Aisha
I am always encouraged and touched by your belief in us when the world around considers my kind intemperate and irresponsible.
Thank you.
Aisha
#54 Posted by bharatvaasi on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
YLh BTW did you see the latest TFT. Check the learned profs article - where he says Pakistan should import Indian profs to teach science to pakistanis.
What a sad state of affairs - that true blue blooded pakistanis like yourself, descendents of the old mughal noblity etc etc etc are feathering their nest in the west while the true inheritors of india are going to go back to the land they belong to too.
oops the fish is there it needs to be reeled in.
What a sad state of affairs - that true blue blooded pakistanis like yourself, descendents of the old mughal noblity etc etc etc are feathering their nest in the west while the true inheritors of india are going to go back to the land they belong to too.
oops the fish is there it needs to be reeled in.
#53 Posted by ylh on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
Slink,
Furthermore, your article in The Friday times `Perv`s Swerve` is a testament to the fact that you understand what I am saying regardless of what you might say here on Chowk.
Furthermore, your article in The Friday times `Perv`s Swerve` is a testament to the fact that you understand what I am saying regardless of what you might say here on Chowk.
#52 Posted by ylh on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
PS Furthermore, you are right I shouldnt have lumped Rehan Ansari with the fundoos and Lunatics. Atleast the fundoos and lunatics don`t sacrifice Pakistan for their own glorification.
#51 Posted by ylh on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
Dear Shandana Minhas,
Please be patient and read the whole thing.
Let me clarify, I think everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter what. But I too have the right to criticize them to the nth degree. By arguing with them doesn`t mean I am out to put them 6 feet under. Are you equating my use of pen (or Keyboard) to show Mr.Rehan Ansari in his true colors which are really ugly with real violence?
The fact is that Rehan Ansari has criticized my belief in Jinnah`s ideals, but he hasn`t mustered up the courage to actually put something up that is concrete and factual. In other words, what he did was not criticism but just provocation. There is no substance to his criticism. He says what is worse is for everyone to see, but he doesn`t elaborate. He just wants to look cool, sound cool, more `intellectual` .. the dissident. Only time will tell who the real dissident is though, and believe me its not Rehan Ansari.
People like Rehan Ansari are a dime a dozen. They lie to get accepted. One such morally bankrupt wannabe intellectual self loathing P-O-S is Sheema Kirmani the famous dancer. At Yale University, much to my annoyance, she made three inaccurate claims which you will see are proposterous:
1) There is no Auditorium in Pakistan.
2) Dancing is BANNED in Pakistan.
3) Government shoots the dancers.
Now let me tell you something, I went to school with the famous Naheed Siddiqui`s kid. Naheed Siddiqui is one of the most famous dancers in Pakistan. Shima Kirmani wishes she was like Naheed Siddiqui. In all three schools I attended in Pakistan we had a class for Dance or Music. There are auditoriums all over Pakistan.. surely Alhambra or the famous Ali Auditorium in Lahore are just two. There are more a 100 in Lahore, many more in Karachi
So I got up and I informed Shima Kirmani that she was out of line.. I gave her the example of Naheed Siddiqui.. and guess what her answer was : Naheed Siddiqui has been in exile for 20 years. Now that is the biggest lie anyone could have told and this woman told it at Yale. Naheed Siddiqui was married to the famous actor Mr.Zia Mohiyuddin and she got divorced getting the house in England while Mr.Mohiyuddin moved to Pakistan. She performs regularly in Pakistan and her family is big in Pakistani plays and dramas: Arifa Siddiqui and her mother etc.. I am sure you know very well who I am talking about.
So what was Shima Kirmani`s motivation in describing Naheed Siddiqui`s residence in England as an `exile`? I think it goes without saying.
Sincerely
Yasser Latif Hamdani
PS: If you see my pal Khalid Muhammad in Karachi tell him to email me.
Please be patient and read the whole thing.
Let me clarify, I think everyone has the right to their own opinion no matter what. But I too have the right to criticize them to the nth degree. By arguing with them doesn`t mean I am out to put them 6 feet under. Are you equating my use of pen (or Keyboard) to show Mr.Rehan Ansari in his true colors which are really ugly with real violence?
The fact is that Rehan Ansari has criticized my belief in Jinnah`s ideals, but he hasn`t mustered up the courage to actually put something up that is concrete and factual. In other words, what he did was not criticism but just provocation. There is no substance to his criticism. He says what is worse is for everyone to see, but he doesn`t elaborate. He just wants to look cool, sound cool, more `intellectual` .. the dissident. Only time will tell who the real dissident is though, and believe me its not Rehan Ansari.
People like Rehan Ansari are a dime a dozen. They lie to get accepted. One such morally bankrupt wannabe intellectual self loathing P-O-S is Sheema Kirmani the famous dancer. At Yale University, much to my annoyance, she made three inaccurate claims which you will see are proposterous:
1) There is no Auditorium in Pakistan.
2) Dancing is BANNED in Pakistan.
3) Government shoots the dancers.
Now let me tell you something, I went to school with the famous Naheed Siddiqui`s kid. Naheed Siddiqui is one of the most famous dancers in Pakistan. Shima Kirmani wishes she was like Naheed Siddiqui. In all three schools I attended in Pakistan we had a class for Dance or Music. There are auditoriums all over Pakistan.. surely Alhambra or the famous Ali Auditorium in Lahore are just two. There are more a 100 in Lahore, many more in Karachi
So I got up and I informed Shima Kirmani that she was out of line.. I gave her the example of Naheed Siddiqui.. and guess what her answer was : Naheed Siddiqui has been in exile for 20 years. Now that is the biggest lie anyone could have told and this woman told it at Yale. Naheed Siddiqui was married to the famous actor Mr.Zia Mohiyuddin and she got divorced getting the house in England while Mr.Mohiyuddin moved to Pakistan. She performs regularly in Pakistan and her family is big in Pakistani plays and dramas: Arifa Siddiqui and her mother etc.. I am sure you know very well who I am talking about.
So what was Shima Kirmani`s motivation in describing Naheed Siddiqui`s residence in England as an `exile`? I think it goes without saying.
Sincerely
Yasser Latif Hamdani
PS: If you see my pal Khalid Muhammad in Karachi tell him to email me.
#50 Posted by rsaxena on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
Re: Zafar
{{Breachcandy-Malabar Hill!, thank you v v much!}}
you delhiwallahs have a serious case of bombay envy...you guys are sneaking in everywhere...today it`s malabar hill, then it will be nariman point, then cuffe parade, then even juhu beach...what`s wrong with that connaught place or whatever it`s called?...
{{Breachcandy-Malabar Hill!, thank you v v much!}}
you delhiwallahs have a serious case of bombay envy...you guys are sneaking in everywhere...today it`s malabar hill, then it will be nariman point, then cuffe parade, then even juhu beach...what`s wrong with that connaught place or whatever it`s called?...
#49 Posted by hamzadafaqui on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
ENJOY!
__________________________________________________
A first grade teacher collected well known proverbs.
She gave each child in her class the first half of a proverb and asked them to come up with the remainder of the proverb. It`s hard to believe these were actually done by first graders! There are some good ones, and their insights may surprise you.
1. Better to be safe than ....punch a 5th grader
2. Strike while the............... bug is close
3. It`s always darkest before .. Daylight Savings Time.
4. Never underestimate the power of ....termites.
5. You can lead a horse to water but........how?
6. Don`t bite the hand that......looks dirty
7. No news is ................ impossible.
8. A miss is as good as a ...........Mr.
9. You can`t teach an old dog new.................math
10.If you lie down with dogs,you`ll........stink
in the morning
11. Love all, trust...........................me
12. The pen is mightier than the............pigs
13. An idle mind is..............the best way to relax
14. Where there`s smoke there`.........pollution
15. Happy the bride who.....gets all the presents
16. A penny saved is....................not much
17. Two`s company, three`s......the Musketeers
18. Don`t put off till tomorrow what............
you put on to go to bed
19. Laugh and the whole world laughs with you, cry and...... you have to blow your nose
20. There are none so blind as............Stevie
Wonder
21. Children should be seen and not......spanked
or grounded
22. If at first you don`t succeed.......
get new batteries
23. You get out of something only what you......
see in the picture on the box
24. When the blind leadeth the blind.....
get out of the way
25. And the favorite : Better late than........
_______________________________________________________________
__________________________________________________
A first grade teacher collected well known proverbs.
She gave each child in her class the first half of a proverb and asked them to come up with the remainder of the proverb. It`s hard to believe these were actually done by first graders! There are some good ones, and their insights may surprise you.
1. Better to be safe than ....punch a 5th grader
2. Strike while the............... bug is close
3. It`s always darkest before .. Daylight Savings Time.
4. Never underestimate the power of ....termites.
5. You can lead a horse to water but........how?
6. Don`t bite the hand that......looks dirty
7. No news is ................ impossible.
8. A miss is as good as a ...........Mr.
9. You can`t teach an old dog new.................math
10.If you lie down with dogs,you`ll........stink
in the morning
11. Love all, trust...........................me
12. The pen is mightier than the............pigs
13. An idle mind is..............the best way to relax
14. Where there`s smoke there`.........pollution
15. Happy the bride who.....gets all the presents
16. A penny saved is....................not much
17. Two`s company, three`s......the Musketeers
18. Don`t put off till tomorrow what............
you put on to go to bed
19. Laugh and the whole world laughs with you, cry and...... you have to blow your nose
20. There are none so blind as............Stevie
Wonder
21. Children should be seen and not......spanked
or grounded
22. If at first you don`t succeed.......
get new batteries
23. You get out of something only what you......
see in the picture on the box
24. When the blind leadeth the blind.....
get out of the way
25. And the favorite : Better late than........
_______________________________________________________________
#48 Posted by anNy on February 14, 2002 7:58:37 pm
subroto:
I know what ure saying :)
dhU(thora jhatka)KKan!
I know what ure saying :)
dhU(thora jhatka)KKan!
#47 Posted by slink on February 14, 2002 8:48:33 am
ylh,
by rehan ansari types, i take it you all mean writers/poets/artists/film makers etc etc who have problems with the notions of borders and nationalism and prefer to challenge through questions rather than brute force. this is interesting coming from someone who so obviously wants a more progressive pakistan. do you think we should just put all those silly people whose opinions are not yours in a little box six feet under the ground? i`d like to clarify i`m not attacking you, i`m glad you have belief and passion, and people like you are as neccesary for moving forward as anybody else, i`m just commenting on your rabid distrust of someone whose weapon of choice is a pen, and the ease with which you group him with fundo`s and lunatics. are you equating his criticism (merely in a line or two on a website) of your faith in the ideals of jinnah with real violence and opression?
by rehan ansari types, i take it you all mean writers/poets/artists/film makers etc etc who have problems with the notions of borders and nationalism and prefer to challenge through questions rather than brute force. this is interesting coming from someone who so obviously wants a more progressive pakistan. do you think we should just put all those silly people whose opinions are not yours in a little box six feet under the ground? i`d like to clarify i`m not attacking you, i`m glad you have belief and passion, and people like you are as neccesary for moving forward as anybody else, i`m just commenting on your rabid distrust of someone whose weapon of choice is a pen, and the ease with which you group him with fundo`s and lunatics. are you equating his criticism (merely in a line or two on a website) of your faith in the ideals of jinnah with real violence and opression?
#46 Posted by soundmeister on February 14, 2002 5:26:34 am
Reply #43 Zafar-bhai/Harish
I guess the beauty of this language is in the way it has evolved and acquired so many sub-accents while retaining an essential honesty and refreshing directness that can`t be found say in unctous Dillispeke (``Kaisee hai auntyjee?``) or stilted-sounding Bangalorese (``No buggerrrr``).
Having said that, I tend to agree with Zafar`s placement of Shankar further South of Wadala... Harish, he`s already said on some other board that he isn`t a Tambrahm but a Konkani-speaking Saraswat so my guess is Talmakiwadi, Tardeo. Close enuff to Malabar Hill by walk, if not by bank balance :)))
Mohd. Ali Road ka lingo actually jyaada suna nahin hai.... but Zafar`s samplings make it sound positively hyderabadi....kya baataa kartaa.... humko naukri honaa.... types. Barobar?
But by far the funniest is the ghaati version from around Girgaum or Shivaji Park.... this guy originally from Poona used to come up and say things like ``Abhi akraa baj gayaa...... baara ko jevan karenge, theek hai?``....tooooo much :)))
I guess the beauty of this language is in the way it has evolved and acquired so many sub-accents while retaining an essential honesty and refreshing directness that can`t be found say in unctous Dillispeke (``Kaisee hai auntyjee?``) or stilted-sounding Bangalorese (``No buggerrrr``).
Having said that, I tend to agree with Zafar`s placement of Shankar further South of Wadala... Harish, he`s already said on some other board that he isn`t a Tambrahm but a Konkani-speaking Saraswat so my guess is Talmakiwadi, Tardeo. Close enuff to Malabar Hill by walk, if not by bank balance :)))
Mohd. Ali Road ka lingo actually jyaada suna nahin hai.... but Zafar`s samplings make it sound positively hyderabadi....kya baataa kartaa.... humko naukri honaa.... types. Barobar?
But by far the funniest is the ghaati version from around Girgaum or Shivaji Park.... this guy originally from Poona used to come up and say things like ``Abhi akraa baj gayaa...... baara ko jevan karenge, theek hai?``....tooooo much :)))