Strategic Depth at Home

One more time:

Chowkies,

I would like to bring up the fact that on this board, there have been, to my knowledge, only two female voices discussing the dearth of female representation in Pakistan`s government. The overwhelming majority of interactors have been male.

Yes, male interactors arguing about 1. what the roles of women in public/private spheres are 2. why their roles should be expanded or limited

3. disingenious gender stereotypes including a. ``women are manipulative`` b. ``women are no different than men in terms of abusing power``-although not a single example of an example of a Muslim country that subjects its male citizenry to the kind of political silence that women in most Muslim countries live in. c. ``the numbers of women in govt. are irrelevant because women are uneducated/are ignorant of the law``, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Male interactors misrepresenting, displacing and speaking for women.

Once again, male interactors naming, misrepresenting, displacing and speaking for women on women`s rights and political voices.

Do you not see the outrageous irony in this? I am sure that this irony has passed the minds of the majority of female interactors on Chowk.

Pearl`s Beheading

It is the general environment which is bad in Pakistan. Beheading is the way muslims deal with while taking a revenge. It goes on to this day in Saudi Arabia which is a role model for Taliban and Pakistan in particular. Afghans beheaded thousands before Soviet invasions during Soviet and after Soviet era.

Mughals have beheaded millions of Hindus and to this day Pakistan rejoices it. Pakistani people are not peaceful peoples. You can not say only 10 percent of Pakistani population is Islamist. Ten percent of 148 million is 14 million muslim extremists. That is a lot of violent people around anyone as friend, neighbour or a casual aquatance.

Pakistani society is very very violent. Muslim society is very cruel.

AAmir,

{{I wouldnt talk about Indian families experience but you are totally wrong as far as Muslims are concerned.}}

Whoah!! Mr holier-than-thou! The first 22 yr old head-strong desi patient I had is a Bangladeshi girl; whose very devout parents had gone to Haj a couple of yrs ago.

She went to college in Ohio & unbeknownst to her parents, has been living with her boyfriend over there. Whenever they would go there to visit; he would take his kit-&-kibootle & stay with friends for a while!

The parents flipped their lids because they found out that she didnt want to come home for summer vacation because she would rather work as a cashier in a Dept store in Cincinatti! Forget about knowing that she was living with a guy!!

Initially, I was puzzled why they decided to seek my professional services, cos they`re very good friends with a muslim psychiatrist in town.

The mother told me that she was kinda ashamed to go to him because they are prominent in the muslim diaspora in town & didnt want them to know that a doctor`s daughter was working in a menial job as a cashier!

It took quite a while to establish trust with this young lady for her to confide about her boyfriend. She also told me that her parents NEVER gave her a talk about ``the birds & the bees``!!--when she was growing up!

Dont get me wrong--both the parents & the girl are the nicest, most genteel people ever. This isnt a promiscuous girl. She just has established a different value system for herself--more in accordance with the American culture. She`s quite head-strong & touchy about the issue of ``morality``. Whenever, I try to steer her towards ``values`` of our desi culture--she cuts me off by saying ``dont even go there--I get enough of it at home, I dont need a lecture from you!``.

To her, an ``arranged marriage``--a concept that is drummed into her-- is nothing but a SIN. I cant get her to understand that it is a system that has survived quite successfully for centuries in our part of the world.

Here`s my BIGGEST problem. Ethically, a psychiatrist CANNOT impose his or her ``moral`` values on their patients. So I have to walk on a minefield..

Listen, I dont want to get into a debate whether muslim children fare better than non-muslim desis.

Besides, if youre interested, I think we can continue this discussion on the ``indian-porn`` board:) We`re intruding on the main topic of SameerJB`s thread:)

I`m going to Cancun with my wife & daughter for a week, so bear with me. All I`m saying is that my experience with young, intelligent desi children has given my wife & I some considerable ``realistic`` insight. We discuss such issues very frankly with our own head-strong 16yr old.

Let me give you a parting thought from a Janitorial psychiatrist. Parenthood is the ONLY amatuer profession left in this world. We ``experts``--janitorial or otherwise- also have to muddle through it like the rest of the world.

Happy Jihad to all you terrorists....you guys got the $300 million ransom and killed the guy too.
Classic proverbial Pakistani double speak followed by proverbial Pakistani double cross, double agent, double double.... everything double - fault of Hindu Brahmin, Jew, Christian ONLY one truth Allah O Akbar !!

Now all Kafirs, Journalists and members of the free world can ONLY say

Har balaa sar pe aa jaaye lekin
Allah waaloN se AllaH Bachaayee.....

Dear Sameer, I missed one aspect in your post.

The Clergy is no more. Destroyed because they were wrong. Now it is up to you & me to carry the torch for the progress of Islam. I believe we have more credibility.

Reply #: 153 SameerJB

Sameer, The basic question about women being the pillars of the familial system remains unanswered. I have asked this question because I have experienced alternate systems like communal Hippy cultures. That is fine too, only that the kid knows who is Mommy but doesn`t know who`s Daddy.

The Honor killing issue, it has something to do with family. The incident you mentioned of the powerful Pashtun had nothing to do with it being a daughter. Daughters are loved more than sons. He would have killed his son just the same.

I have one sister and two brothers. My sister is the most loved in my clan and although she`s the youngest, actually leads the Family on issues. She`s a woman and understands the Family Unit. Her word is final. If there was an attack on family honor, she would give the order. She wouldn`t decide on having someone killed, but she would decide to have that person ostracised from Family. I do not defend Honor killing but I do defend the family unit. It`s a question of degree. The Pashtun is irrational and life is cheap. The principle though is the same. Think about it.

About Musharraf, I fully support him. Time means Change and Change is essential. We only need to go back to Bilal Musharraf`s `He had no choice` to see how much has changed with time. I went back to that and it was an experience. My posts at that time were vehemently against Musharraf as were Roohi Allah Ditta`s (she called him General Mutarraf aka Mootar) but time has proven that although he was wrong at that time, now he`s right. We must forget the past and look to the future. I wish Musharraf God Speed despite all his shortcomings and the manner in which he attained Power. I tend to think, intrinsically, he`s a patriot.

Regards

Zeemax

temporal #142 On Mushy: As Mao Tse Tung said, who cares if the cat is black or white as long as it catches mice. Mushy`s catching mice right and left nowadays. However, soon he must realize that he is only a cat, and the real rulers of the house are the people of Pakistan and their will must be expressed through a proper system. Of course I never met a cat that did not consider it the master of the house. I think Mushy is smarter than that. Let us pray like hell he stays as smart as he has been to date, or else we will have another Ayub Khan at our hands.

The WSJ journalist Daniel Pearl is dead.

Another black eye for Pakistan.

And the rumor mongering ``President`` Musharraf was trying to deflect the blame on India!! --``we are looking into it`` -- instead looking FOR Daniel -- how pathetic.

Now if India really does him in -- nobody will believe -- Musharraf the Boy Who Cried Wolf -- a little too many times.

The killing of that gentle journalist Daniel Pearl has sent a chill through United States about Pakistan -- a PR disaster for Pakistan’s image -- vis a vis American public.

If MiaN Musharraf and his country want to survive as a normal law and order President -- of a normal law abiding country -- he must EXTERMINATE the Islamist extremists once for all -- without verbal gymnastics -- with no ifs and buts – with no bull sh#t like -- “Islamic Progressive” state.

Otherwise sooner than later -- Pakistan will self destruct itself like -- another ``Islamic Progressive`` state -- Somalia.

This is not a good day for Pakistan.

re:Reply #: 125

shankar,

Thanks for your post. I agree that eventually our children and grandchildren will assimilate in this so called melting pot. However, it is for us to see that they get the best out of Indian culture even as they are assimilating the American culture. The good thing about American culture is emphasis on individuality. This encourages freethinking. The same can have disastrous effect on the young minds if proper restrictions are not placed. Young minds can either be creative or so bored as to turn to drugs. A lot of drug problems afflict many childres of affluent Indian parents who are doctors and so busy as not to have anytime for their kids (I personally know one such family). A balance is needed.

Indian culture and family values are based on love and not on some power structure. Anyway, atleast my brother has decided to send his daughter to a school in India when she is older. I do not have any children but if i did, i would do the same. Schools in US are scary. US however is the ideal place for a higher education.

Sridhar

hobbyt #151
``Just when we were actually talking, you decide to the need to protect Sameer is greater than being truthful.``
hobbyt, a word of advice. You had better have something better to offer as argument to others on the subject than allegations of lying. I donot think we have anything further to discuss.

Zeemax: Thanks for averi nice post and welcome. Actually I would agree with everything you are saying. You and I know quite well how bargaining works in Pakistani establishment. It would be nice to gain everything you are asking for because they are genuine concerns. Rational and sensible bargaining works with people of similar qualities. Such is not the case in Pakistani elite. Remember it was the previously so-called progressive, Ajmal Khattack taking the charge against a move to condemn honor killing in the Senate. Musharraf, himself was friendly in camera to a powerful Pashtun, who was allegedly involved in the killing of his own daughter.

In my own case, ladies got better grades than men, at graduate level at Quaid-e-Azam University but almost none of them is working right now. All of them could have easily gotten admission in Ph.D. programs in USA and had successful carrier. But the traditions, social structure and society as a whole did not favor their entry into workforce. From here on, I may have disagreement with you about traditions and social structure. All traditions are not equally deep rooted, strong and worth sticking to them. After this post, I plan to respond to rshridhar`s post about veil. Anyway, in my opinion, many of our traditions are artificially supported by manufacturing consent, fully backed by establishment and clergy alike, yielding lot more power to clergy in social and moral arena. While the need to keep working on all the areas, you and others have mentioned must continue unabated, a powerful move at the top can in no way hamper the efforts. It is only going to help expedite the positive changes and putting an end to the continuation of injustices for too long.

hobbyty #???: I have already responded to my dislikeness of Musharraf in a post to Assad_K. Musharraf to me is not a leader but the current ruler of Pakistan. He is legal ruler but not a legitimate one. I have also said that in a comparison between NS and Musharraf, IMO, NS wins because I judge both with different parameters. The bar for Musharraf is placed so high that he can never cross because he crossed the bar by cheating - he went under the bar instead of going over it. I am not asking Musharraf or Core Commanders (thanks temporal) as leaders: I am asking them as rulers.

If my article look patronizing to women - it probably is. I will keep patronizing the powerless, poor, outcasts and disenfranchized over patronizing the most powerful hypothetical idea. Aren`t you patronizing god through Islam? I have only poorly written one article for patronizing and people are patronizing all their life by praying, fasting, animal blood sacrifices, killing kafirs and so on. Patronizing is at it worse, if the focus of it is single individual as in the case of Musharraf or a hypothesis that will not make it to even theory in 3000 years. Patronizing women in this article is just fine with me because I am patronizing my sisters before my chowk colleagues.

Sadna

Just when we were actually talking, you decide to the need to protect Sameer is greater than being truthful. Yes power relations are an element of the relations between men and women but just like there is a contract between sinners and saints, a contract exists among the powerful and the powerless. None of these relationships is amenable in an enduring manner to political manipulation but they will change when the way men and women earn their living will change. Serving values must change prior to larger social transformations and these values reside in the social realm.

I agree and I do not challenege that conscience (and an excess of ideology of a certain kind) compels Sameer, but his analysis misses the Mark and the prescription calls for a radical political remedy as opposed to those slow but enduring changes in the values that animate society. The more clearly, more minutely, more completely a problem is defined, the clearer the remedy to those problem.

Arjun_m

I think you have gained enough mileage from the point you made, you now risk making constructive criticism into something extreme. Please reconsider.

Sadly, Danny Pearl has become a well-publicized victim of what passed as our foreign policy and strategy for the last decade. Condolences to his widow and children. Hopefully the criminals will be caught and punished, but I do fear the worst on that score.

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Chowkies,

I would like to bring up the fact that on this board, there have been, to my knowledge, only two female voices discussing the dearth of female representation in Pakistan`s government. The overwhelming majority of interactors have been male. Yes, male interactors arguing about 1. what the roles of women in public/private spheres are 2. why their roles should be expanded or limited

3. disingenious gender stereotypes including a. ``women are manipulative`` b. ``women are no different than men in terms of abusing power``-although not a single example of an example of a Muslim country that subjects its male citizenry to the kind of political silence that women in most Muslim countries live in. c. ``the numbers of women in govt. are irrelevant because women are uneducated/are ignorant of the law``, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Male interactors misrepresenting, displacing and speaking for women.

Once again, male interactors naming, misrepresenting, displacing and speaking for women on women`s rights and political voices.

Do you not see the outrageous irony in this? I am sure that this irony has passed the minds of the majority of female interactors on Chowk.

Sameer brought up, as a member of your gender, an issue that has moral, political, social and economic resonances for any society, and particuarly Pakistan. Hopefully some female Pakistani interactors will join this forum, and the male interactors will have the decency to be silent for once and listen.