Strategic Depth at Home

Thanks Zeemax for a detailed reply. I knew I could count on you. There is not much left in this thread on the previous page.

I thank each and everyone of you for sharing and discussing much more intelligently and peacefully than has been the case with Indo-pakistan and Hindu-Muslim discussions.

Love y`all,

Sameer

DullaBhatti #296 LOL!!

aicha #289 I think they need a special ``Charm Class`` as part of men`s adult education in India and Pakistan. Men would be shown how to hold the door, ingest food rather than spreading it over their hands and clothes, and to present the world with a smile rather than the dead-look of a zombie.

Reply #: 284 SameerJB

``Would you be kind enough to break down the 5 billion dollar foreign exchange reserve ...While East Asian countries foreign exchange reserves are credited to trade surplus and saving rate: Are Pakistani and Indian reserves are accounted differently?``

Well Sameer, any countries genuine reserves are only that portion of the foreign exchange in it`s coffers which has been converted to local currency in `full and final settlement` of that transaction. In other words if you send $1000 to your rupee account, that`s final settlement. However if you send it to a Dollar account, it is not ! However it`s free for the country to use it and replenish it if you want to withdraw your Dollars (Although Pakistan couldn`t with those 12 billion). Both India and Pakistan include non-residents deposits as well as institutional deposits, swap transactions etc in their reserve figures. Pakistan`s reserves held with the Central Bank are $2.6 billion but this figure includes IMF and World Bank disbursements, as well as institutional deposits. So you only need to take these factors into account to arrive at the genuine figure. India`s genuine reserves too are far below the reported figures as they include their NRI scheme, which is huge, in their calculations.

``Why the ruppee value has declined much more during 2 years of Musharraf than previous five years of corrupt democracy``

The previous government had succeeded in keeping the Rupee value under control in a `managed float` despite pressure from multilateral lenders. The IMF terms now stipulate no government intervention and the Rupee value depends purely on demand & supply. So in a net external deficit situation, Rupee only has go one way .. which is South. This is why Rupee actually appreciated by about Rs 5/- per $ after 9/11 because supply suddenly exceeded demand and hundi wallas dumped their holdings in the market.

``.. and why Pakistan deficit has climbed faster during the last two years (due to more borrowing?)?``

If it`s the fiscal deficit you refer to, it`s mainly due to the fall in the Rupee value and resultant additional debt servicing burden/cost of essential imports which cannot be passed-on to the consumer. Also, further borrowing was made under IMF Standby facility.

``Funny, at personal level all the financial planners suggest to pay off credit card debts as quickly as possible whereas at national level, the lenders sweeten the deal if you pay slowly``

Well, you said it. In Pakistan`s case it`s called `getting fiscal space`. During the rescheduled period Pakistan is supposed to use the saved foreign exchange for economic growth and there are plans to completely eliminate foreign debt by 2010. I have seen that plan and there`s nothing concrete in it.

``Another question is: What if Musharraf dies today suddenly of any cause?``

I think you`ve answered this question yourself in the succeeding para. Though I wish he remains in power regardless as Pakistan is passing through a critical phase and more turmoil will be fatal.

Rgds

Zeemax

#291

Malik sahib, it is rumoured that when Americans went to the Moon Mr. Armstrong installed the US flag and his buddies cheered him up making jokes on how they have beaten Russians in the race. As their were laughing they heard a loud jaikaara from behind their vehicle..bole so nihaal....it were couple of Nihangs asking the American team if they got some lassi from earth..one casually complained ``ChandarCharh Singh has been trying to make dahi for 5 years and it does not work here on moon...we thought may eb you guys brought some dahi...atleast enough for jaag``.

Nihangs and aaloos are everywhere.

…sorry….in #199: “yes, there are some women shelters, eg dar-ul-sakoon”….that should be dar-ul-aman…dar-ul-sakoon’s for the mentally handicapped…

urstruly:

“And if you are trying to tell me that Army planned all this just in those 1 hour and 30 minutes and then executed the plan then I would say ``Pak Fauj ko Salaam``.

…no, they didn’t…musharraf had had suspicions/heard from a little bird that bari tind might sack him while he was in colombo….before he left, he had a backup plan in place…

saminashah
I suggest you CONDUCT a macroeconomic course and call it Budhaape Kaa Sahaara 101 and Bhavati Bhiksha Dehi 102

In it you can make a sound economic case for society to engage in unproductive activities of raising families and taking care of their seniors. (since people insist on viewing the issue this way).

The productive folks who are presently getting justly rewarded for avoiding the unproductive activity of raising families, what happens when they grow old and retire?

Who is then going to ensure that monthly cheques arrive from their longterm investments now that they are no longer working? Who is going to ensure they get their social security checks ? Who is going to pay taxes for adequate police so that they donot get mugged in front of their old age homes kept habitable because the government pays for regular inspections, on the way to the pharmacy to pick up their govt-subsidized medicines.

Teach these careerists, its the children who are born and raised by unproductive parents today, who will pay for the safety net when these childless but productive careerists grow old.

Point to Germany and Japan where abysmal population growth rates encouraged by the logic that raising families is economically unrewarding in the short term, is costing their economy and the aging population in the long term.


The reason why these macroeconomic effects are not significant in the US is that there happens to be a whole burgeoning Third World out there which is being allowed to supply the shortfall of productive people without paying for social safety nets for THEIR unproductive. And an economic effect on society is being offset by a sociological effect which is yet to fructify, not because the economic theory is perfectly sound and sustainable in itself.


I am all for growing the economy by rewarding productivity, but there is a law of diminishing returns in being hardnosed about rewarding productivity. There is a breakeven point where the cost of the safety net of social services for the unproductive undoes the good effects of increased productivity and expanding economy obtained by being hardnosed.

(Why waste money on social safety net at all, one might ask? Well, the social safety net makes economic sense because it enables the productive population to continue to be productive instead of wasting productivity on law and order problems, social breakdowns and tensions created by the unproductive)


Some may argue, rewarding productivity increases efficiency of production, so you need less and less people to sustain as much economic activity, so do you really need populaiton growth. Well yes, but can less and less people be expected to buy more and more which is required to sustain a growing economy.

Veeresh yup I have been on that line

you can read an article on it at:

http://members.tripod.com/

Urstruly #279: In reply #268, you stated, ``He said he would go away after October 2002`` In reply #279, you stated, ``The mantra that, he will go back to barracks after 10/02, used to be daily``

You seem to have changed from Musharraf himself stating that he would go back, to a daily mantra. So I will once again ask the same question:

Could you point out when and where he (as per your first reply) said he would go back to the barracks after Oct 2002?

``I never said amendments, I said ``rape`` right out.``

Can you explain how a constitution is raped? The only way I can think of is through amendments or by declaring it invalid and throwing it out. Neither has been done.

``The recent changes in election laws, changing the representative structure in the assemblies, changing the laws on separate electorate;``

These have to be approved by the Supreme Court of Pakistan. The Supreme Court has allowed the govt. a certain level of authority in this regard. The elected govt. can come in and undo these if they want to. On the whole, nearly every Pakistani seems to be supporting these changes. The separate electorate law was put in the constitution through a dictatorship to begin with. What is wrong with removing it?

``the military courts that are being established to persecute political opponents and thus denying citizens the due process of law and constitutional protections.``

The courts being put in place are actually not military courts. The only pure military courts suggested were by Nawaz Sharif, for terrorism. He wanted one military judge giving a decision. The Supreme Court did not allow them. NS was lucky, because had they been put in place, Nawaz Sharif would have himself been under trial in one of these courts. The current courts will have one military judge and two civilian judges. They are not to try political opponents. They are to try people like Shiekh Omer. I cannot imagine you or I ever ending up in one of them. Whether their positive points outweigh their negative points is a separate debate. But once again, the Supreme Court has to clear them and the Supreme Court has once again decided to put them on hold. And the govt. is complying. I personally don`t think such courts are necessary.

Also could you point out who the political opponents of this govt are? The only ones I can think of are the feudal and corrupt of the PPP and PML (and people who have benefited from them) as well as the hypocritical religious right (like Qazi Hussain and Fazl-ur-Rahman, who recruit other people`s kids to fight in Kashmir, but send their own kids to the USA. As someone who was in the military ready to go to Kashmir, if assigned, I am highly offended by the hypocritical religious leadership of Pakistan). All other major parties and groups (MQM, ANP, Tehrek-i-Insaaf/Istaqlal, etc., as well as Joe Pakistani) seem to be supporting this govt.

``And not to mention the handing over of our military installations to the enemy. If he has not become a bigger security risk to Paksitan then what is.``

Have you ever been to the Jacobabad airfield? I have actually been to some of these, ``military installations.`` They are satellite stations that rarely if every get used, except during war. The US is paying Pakistan for using these installations. I am guessing that the US did quite a bit of construction there (I hope they put in air conditioners there, because when I was at one of these places for a day or two, I almost boiled to death). Pakistan has been thinking about converting some of the installations to full-fledged bases, but didn`t have the money. Now, Pakistan maybe able to turn them into a base to defend itself against India better.

The US was actually an ally in this war, and not the enemy. All major security decisions made by Pakistan are discussed with the Chinese leadership, since we are under the protective wings of China. China didn`t have too much problem with this, neither did the Pakistani strategic leadership. Do you claim to know more than them about the security of Pakistan?

And could you explain how giving Lasbela, Jacobabad etc. satellite fields to someone can be a security risk? What is going to happen? Are US helicopters going to take off and attack Lahore? Can you point to one incidence in history where something like that has happened?

``which means 2/3rd of the parliament voted for the proposed legislation and it also passed the scrutiny of the Senate. I fail to comprehend how a law passed through constitutional procedures is Un-Constitutional- just because you don’t like it?``

I didn`t say it was unconstitutional. I said the constitution was condemned, through the amendment. What if 2/3rd of the National Assembly passes a law that everyone named Urstruly should cease to be a Pakistani citizen? Would that be valid? The Supreme Court wanted to undo some of NS`s constitutional shenanigans, but it was stormed by a group of our illustrious parlimentarians.

Horse trading can be stopped through party discipline. As in not letting people back into one`s party, other they have become a lota. Or by not accepting members of other parties into one`s own party. The two parties that indulge in horse-trading are the PML and PPP. Why do they accept the lotas of the other party? And why do they accept their own lotas back into their party?Iftikhar Gillani went from PML to PPP and is now back in PML. Why did the PPP accept him, and why has the PML taken him back?

Constitutional amendments don`t outright say that they are being put in place to control the voice of the, ``people`s representatives.`` The 14th amendment basically disallowed any party member to vote against anything put up by the party leader (like the Shariah Bill). Can you point to any PML members who voted against their party leader in the Assembly, after this amendment? And can you point to any that voted against him and were not disqualified?

``Sharia bill is idiotic or not, it should never be an issue, the issue should be if you do not like the legislation, which has just passed the lower house, what was your (the opponents) political strategy to counter that.``

I didn`t say the coup occured because of the Shariah Bill. I said it is good that it did occur, otherwise Pakistan would be under the Shariah as describe by Nawaz and a body of ulema.

The Shariah Bill was passed after the 14th amendment. At that point, anything NS stated had to be passed by his party members, since they would be disqualified if they voted against it. The purpose of the Shariah Bill was to get the mullahs on the side of NS, and more importantly to give NS the power to pass laws by simple majority, as shown by the following text:

``Notwithstanding anything contained in clauses (1) to (3), a Bill to amend the Constitution providing for the removal of any impediment in the enforcement of any matter relating to Shariah and the implementation of the Injunctions of Islam may originate in either House and shall, if it is passed by a majority of the members voting in the House (my note: this is what NS wanted) in which it originated, be transmitted to the other House; and if the Bill is passed without amendment by the majority of the members voting in the other House also, it shall be presented to the President for assent.``

Do you really think corrupt people like the Sharifs care about public welfare and the ways of Prophet Muhammad? Do you think Pakistan was a constitutional democracy in the 90s? Was it becoming more democratic or less democratic by suffocating the voice of the MNAs through the 14th amendment and by reducing a bill passing vote from 2/3rd majority to simple majority.

Pakistan was a civilian dictatorship (under NS and BB) then and is a military dictatorship now (under Musharraf). Which dictatorship is better? Take your pick. You know where I stand. But please do not try to convince me that Pakistan was a constitutional democracy under NS and BB, or going in the direction of becoming one.

Idly channel surfing a short while ago I stopped to watch a documentary on PTV World about a steam engine train ride on a railway line that has seen better days (ballast has almost vanished, and the tracks are sitting on old wooden sleepers that have sunk back into the bedrock) from Peshawar to Landi Kotwal/Khorum border . . . en route they show a station called Shahgai (Fort) where you suddenly catch a glimpse of a jatha of Nihang Sikhs with their Nishan Sahibs, on horseback, weapons et al . . . and the signage for the railway halt (not platform) is kind of handwritten in English, Urdu and Gurmukhi.

Have anybody here on chowk been on this railway line?

Nihangs are a unique (violent??) Sikh phenomenon, and I was not aware that they were resident anywhere other than in India. And seeing the Gurmukhi signage was even more amazing.

Any inputs on this from anybody? The documentary was made by M/s Bhatti & Hashmi, with narration by Malik. Oh well.

They use baltees. So did Connie Stevens.

Before I get to my debate with Omair, I would like to make two comments made on Interact:

1) Pakistans forex reserves are at a all time record:..FALSE!, It`s a form of Creative mis reporting, Pakistan introduced the practice done in many other countries during the Musharraf govt, that is to include the Reserves of Various Banks operating in Pakistan and add that to the total, the reserves obviously doubled when they were included. Also I believe Shaukat Aziz is the son of Aziz Ahmad, ZAB`s Foriegn Min I believe?

2) When NS passed the anti defection amendment. It didnt stop him from buying of people. In The Frontier Mehtab Abbassi bought of a ANP Minority MPA, with a cabinet berth. When the ANP filed a case against him, he was disqualified, he appealed and got the whole thing bogged down in the courts, while he continued as a Minister, and to be safe he filed to contest the byelections. The Amendment didn`t stop people from filing to contest again. Another point, is how can parties which are undemocratic (as almost all are in Pakistan) from disqualifying people, who may be following their conscience( Mian Azhar, Kasuri and the original core Hum Khyalys)



Now Back to my cabinet argument with Omair:

Imrans a Dictator..simple fact, and yes he has matured a lot since his 97 rout, and I don`t deny his party will win the odd seat. The Quality of his new party blood leaves much to be desired, he has Mian Sajid as his Punjab Chief( a GM Khar friend in the 70`s..I think thats sez it all!)..in the Frontier he has (Mohsin Ali Khan, who`s wheeling dealing ways in the Frontier are well known, as well as being a representative of a wealthy elite which usually is in govt in some form or the other), in Sindh he has Pervaz Ali Shah, and in baluchistan a relative of Nawab Joegazai ( again none of these people stand out for being evry competent)

Asfandyer Wali is a professional politican, but a principled one, he has never served in any Cabinet, and never made a aggressive push for Power, which is not to say he couldn`t. He also has suffered for ideals, he was horribly tortured during ZAB`s time, I believe as Ardeshir Cowasjee said..he had his toe nails extracted, the man is a National Leader not a simple Chief Min...similairly Afrasiab was horribly beaten by the FSF, and despite that went on to top his masters exam from prison, in effect both are people who have proven their belief in their convictions. The need for people with grass roots understanding of problems is essential, e.g, Minister of SAFRON( the Tribal and Northern Areas), in NS`s time was Majeed Malik, now regardless of how competent he is, what wiuld a retired General from Chakwal know about the problems of the Tribal Belt? Simialirly Mush got the token Pashtun ..Abbas Sarafraz ( he`s spent his whole life in Karachi and is a Mush drinking buddy) ..now what would he know again about the Tribal areas?...or even the northern areas?

Omer Asghar Khan, I am deeply disappointed with as a Minister, him and Zubeida Jalal both represented the successful NGO crowd which achieved much in very tough environments..but their performance as Ministers was ineffectual at best. For that reason I can`t really see why he should be a Governor...his father`s also been over hyped, and is long past his prime..if you are going to consider him, then what about Sherbaz Mazari?(Baluchi a well respected one as well)

Mubarak Ali is a fine individual, do read up on him, I like Pervaiz Hoodhboy, and he probably would be an excellent VC, but he has definite potential. Why not consider in Sindhi`s Sajjad Ali Shah or Mukhtar Junejo (Chief Election Commisoner who disqualified Tarrar, and was sacked for that?)..Another person I like and I believe was on the verge of joining PTI ..Danyal Aziz..(O yeah Omair you should check out the PTI web site sometime..interestin some of the comments on the web site discussion forumm..sadly the site needs a major overhauling..compared to Tahir Ul Qadris, MQm and Jamiat e Islamis)

Well thats my two cents...:)

tahmed - ``Seriously ... (not Indian though, they are as bad as we are in these matters)``

Tell me aboutit!! If an Indian is ahead of you dont expect him to hold the door for you - you are liable to get a flatnose if you do.

And forget elevators - bound to get elbowed out! Meetings and chairs - place a firm hand on the chair you are about to sit on - otherwise do it at your own risk !!

Smalltalk - ``do you know java`` or ``greencard??`` - ``what??`` and you will be talking to yourself.

: ) ofcourse I am exaggerating and digressing - couldnt help it !!

``Seriously ... (not Indian though, they are as bad as we are in these matters)``

Tell me aboutit!! If an Indian is ahead of you dont expect him to hold the door for you - you are liable to get a flatnose if you do.

And forget elevators - bound to get elbowed out! Meetings and chairs - place a firm hand on the chair you are about to sit on - otherwise do it at your own risk !!

Smalltalk - ``do you know java`` or ``greencard??`` - ``what??`` and you will be talking to yourself.

: ) ofcourse I am exaggerating and digressing - couldnt help it !!

saminashah #280 to Fuzair ``Well, actually a lot more passes for Women Studies; are you familliar with Luce Irigaray, Elaine Showalter, Kate Millett, Fatima Mernissi, Julia Kristeva, and Helen Cixous? Are you familliar with Shoshana Felman`s deconstruction of the principle of ``logoscentricism``? ``

I am impressed!! I am an obvious illiterate on the subject of Women`s Studies, although I have heard the song ``I am woman, hear me roar, in numbers to big to ignore`` or something like that. Does that count?? Seriously though, for the Pakistani male, it will take a couple of generations and exposure to other cultures (not Indian though, they are as bad as we are in these matters), to understand how issues like spouse abuse and gender inequality in day to day life (e.g. washing dishes, running corporations) are set right quickly once women are no longer dependent on men for physical or economic security.

A good start in Pakistan therefore would be to change divorce laws so that the woman gets 50% of the chappies assets plus future earnings (something along the lines in the US). Maybe this is something to pass along to folks in Pakistan. I know an Indian ex-friend of mine (this incident made me change my opinions on him) who tricked his wife to accompanying him back to Bombay where he divorced her (thus avoiding US divorce laws), and then came back to the US with her passport with him. The wife of course managed to come back and take him to court in the US.

Zeemax # 283 ``They have never understood and they never will. But we`ll keep on. Nothing will deter us.``

Nothing will deter you from what ? What`s your vision for Pakistan ? What do you think are it`s most 5 most pressing issues in order of priority ?

Thanks in advance.

Zeemax: Would you be kind enough to break down the 5 billion dollar foreign exchange reserve that many of the Musharraf supporters are pointing out as a feather in the cap of Shaukat Aziz? What is your assessment of Shaukat Aziz? I believe he is a nephew of Sartaj Aziz and had been very close to Sharif brothers in the past.

While East Asian countries foreign exchange reserves are credited to trade surplus and saving rate: Are Pakistani and Indian reserves are accounted differently? India does make billions of dollars per year from IT related trade but IT alone does not account for 40-50 billion dollars Indian reserve (wouldn`t it be nice if India pays off 20-30 billion dollars of their debt in one day out of the reserve. Is it possible, if all the reserve is held by the government?). Similarly in the case of Pakistan, IT related exports create miniscule amount of foreign exchange, trade deficit, budget deficit and a total of about 10 billion dollars exports against 12 billion dollars imports per year can not put 5 billion dollars in reserve. Is this mostly remittance or part IMF bailout money currently in the bank until paid as interest on the loans? The private foreign currency accounts were once 11 billion dollars which previous governments (including my few thousand dollars) used up through borrowing from the banks and then banned withdrawals in the form of foreign currency because there was not anything foreign left in the banks. Now it may be again 3-5 billion dollars according to the new scheme of foreign currency accounts.

The other question is: Why the ruppee value has declined much more during 2 years of Musharraf than previous five years of corrupt democracy and why Pakistan deficit has climbed faster during the last two years (due to more borrowing?)?

Similarly, the benefit of 1.2 billion dollars from the rescheduling of the loans by EU is 1.2 billion dollars if paid in 30 years, like mortgage. Any attempt to pay off faster, or failing to pay the minimum cuts sharply into 1.2 billion dollar windfall. Funny, at personal level all the financial planners suggest to pay off credit card debts as quickly as possible whereas at national level, the lenders sweeten the deal if you pay slowly, with assurance of making the minimum payment in time.

Another question is: What if Musharraf dies today suddenly of any cause? Who will be the CE, President? Such is the working of this greatest leader since Jinnah that the path to any systematic power transfer is intentionally blocked because it might challenge his authority. Reminds me of another ``great lader``, Aurangzeb killing his 2-3 brothers and blinding another.

The downfall of NS is attributed to the power hungry Musharraf and not Shariah bill, no matter how much one detests Sharia bill.

Reply #: 279 Urstruly

[(1) If a member of a Parliamentary Party defects, he may be…….``. The keyword in the text is ``a member of a Parliamentary Party``, which means if an elected member defects then the law is applicable to him. This law actually protects the constituents who voted for that member of parliament on the basis of his political convictions, and when he got elected he changed his political convictions thus defrauding his constituents. This law prevents floor crossing and horse trading.]

Urstruly .. you fight big and strong, but there are curtains on eyes and ears of people. They have never understood and they never will. But we`ll keep on. Nothing will deter us.

Thanks my friend. I salute you.

Zeemax

re fuzair #278:

Rrgression analysis with rational deduction has its limits. You are getting a little carried away with your beef with subjective perspectives. I agree with your posts about feminazis demanding an equaltarian rather than an egalitarian society however your assertion to brush aside all subjective experience as deficient is rather extreme.

There is always a place for human intervention and deduction even when the numbers are saying quite the opposite. I see it in my profession all the time. Whether the human mind is a far more complex number crunching machine whose functioning is beyond the realm of our understanding or subjective reasoning(based on individual experience) is as valid a tool for forming counter opinions is open to conjecture. As is true in most cases the truth depends on your vantage point.

later

-sac

P.S: I do have a couple of hilarious stories for your liberation of males league but they`ll have to wait for a more opportune time.

Fuzair you write ``Women who choose to have babies earn less money for the reasons I have detailed earlier``. I see a chink in your armor sir. It is not the woman alone who chooses to have babies, but a man is involved as well. Takes two to tango. So you should write ``Couples who choose to have babies earn less money for the reasons I have detailed earlier``. This means, men with children should have their 23% (or whatever is the income differential in society) of their lifelong income deducted. So, the gender gap in income will be replaced by a ``parenthood gap`` whereby couples with children get 23% less than childless couples, and 11.5% less than childless singles.

You could of course then place a suitable tax on the childless folks (``Propogation of the Species Tax, or PST for short, kind of like a VAT tax) and bring everyone up to par.

You can go through all this, or you can simply accept the fact that just as honesty is the best policy, so is decency towards women the best policy. Logic certainly is not on your side.

Fuzair,

re: ``I was labelling a certain group of women ``hysterical,`` etc. based upon how they made their arguments. You will pardon me if I do not choose to be impressed by histrionics, wild accusations and a complete unwillingness (inability?) to think rationally or logically about issues. Is that what passes for scholarship in Women`s Studies and the like?``

Well, actually a lot more passes for Women Studies; are you familliar with Luce Irigaray, Elaine Showalter, Kate Millett, Fatima Mernissi, Julia Kristeva, and Helen Cixous? Are you familliar with Shoshana Felman`s deconstruction of the principle of ``logoscentricism``? If not, how could you possibly decide what is meaningless or not? Many of these theories work in tandem with more (yes, Fuzair, grip that table, get ready) progessive systems of democracy. But, do read these theorists before making any irrational judgements.

``BTW, thanks for posting that NYT study. Unfortunately it is completely useless since it doesn`t describe the methodology used.``



How surprising. Intially you waved away the reality in income disparaties as insignificant, and negligable. Now that the study, a recent one that illustrates that the disparity has actually increased, 1. it`s not interesting 2. it`s not credible (even though it seems to come from an institution that has nothing to gain) 3.it`

s useless, because the NYTimes always prints the methodologies that news worthy stories use. Sounds like nothing pleases you. Another attempt at delegitmising a rather mainstream study.

``My guess is that its more of the same: raw averages do ``prove`` discrimination but they also prove how ignorant the people who carried out the study are. ``



And this comment is based on what form of logic?

``Go ask your Stats friend about how to run a regression and make a really good model (i.e., if you actually want useful results and not just to ``prove`` your political point). I`m sure she knows more than I do about this stuff since I am not an econometrician.``



Indeed I will. What I won`t do is post her comments to you, since it seems this entire conversation has been a game of switch and bait, in which you make all kinds of slippery remarks that differ from post to post. About 6 monthes ago, you were against affirmative action, but this week you are for aa for eco disadvantaged individuals. You support progressive women activists in Pakistan, but I`m sure that you wont make the connection between between their grassroots work and progressive agendas. You like ``some`` feminists, but not the ones that disagree with you, or contend what mainstream studies bear out. Clearly the center of your arguments doesn`t hold.

``...Once they started famillies, mothers who were managers could count on earning 66 percent of what fathers who were managers were paid, she said....``

Btw, these women in managerial positions are not all white. I have several aunts, cousins and a mother who fall into this category. And they left Pakistan because there were no jobs for them.

``I think this quotation says it all. Women who choose to have babies earn less money for the reasons I have detailed earlier.``

No, its not a choice. Its our institutions deciding that women who choose to ``have it all`` as their husbands should be penalized for stepping out of their so called biological roles as caretakers and nurturers. This should be about choices for women, made by women who are citizens. You pointed out that your friend had to leave his job in order to be a fully present father. I would argue that this discrimination affects both women and men like your friend, who of course, should be applauded and supported for wanting to be an intergral part of child raising.



Btw, you refused to engage a significant theme in this article; that women-headed households are affected by this glass ceiling (which doesnt exist, according to one of your posts)during an impending recession.

No ``discrimination.`` Why don`t you admit it that you have a political agenda? You want the US to look more like the Scandinavian welfare state where the govt pays for everything and the top marginal tax rate used to be 102%? In short, you want an equalitarian society, not an egalitarian one.



Yes, I do have a political agenda. No bones about it. Yes, I think our socialist Scandinavian neighbors have some good ideas. So sorry.

Romair

``Could you point out when and where he said he would go back to the barracks after Oct 2002?``

Those were the days when Musharaf was not an apple of West`s eye. The mantra that, he will go back to barracks after 10/02, used to be daily whenever they (army) needed to re-schedule the next installment of loan from IMF and other soodkhors. That was the mandate given to him by the supreme court of Pakistan and he agreed to it. Yaar what is this? chori aur seena zori?

`` Are you aware of any amendments made to the constitution?``

I never said amendments, I said ``rape`` right out. The recent changes in election laws, changing the representative structure in the assemblies, changing the laws on separate electorate; the military courts that are being established to persecute political opponents and thus denying citizens the due process of law and constitutional protections. And not to mention the handing over of our military installations to the enemy. If he has not become a bigger security risk to Paksitan then what is.

`` Infact it was Nawaz Sharif who completely condemned the constitution with the 14th amendment that allowed him to get rid of any party members that voted against him.``

The 14th Amendment that you have mentioned is called `` CONSTITUTION (FOUTEENTH AMENDMENT) ACT, 1997``; the keyword is ``ACT`` which means 2/3rd of the parliament voted for the proposed legislation and it also passed the scrutiny of the Senate. I fail to comprehend how a law passed through constitutional procedures is Un-Constitutional- just because you don’t like it?. And if you look at the text of the legislation it says `` Article 63A Disqualification on ground of defection, etc.--- (1) If a member of a Parliamentary Party defects, he may be…….``. The keyword in the text is ``a member of a Parliamentary Party``, which means if an elected member defects then the law is applicable to him. This law actually protects the constituents who voted for that member of parliament on the basis of his political convictions, and when he got elected he changed his political convictions thus defrauding his constituents. This law prevents floor crossing and horse trading. Similar laws exist in Britain, where you have to leave your elected position before you change your party. So the question remains how this law is un-constitutional.

{ His Shariah Bill, through amendment 15 would have completely put the constitution on the backburner. An idiotic version of Shariah would have reigned supreme. And NS would have been able to get things passed just through simple majority. The coup actually saved the constitution from being over run by the Shariah Bill.}

Sharia bill is idiotic or not, it should never be an issue, the issue should be if you do not like the legislation, which has just passed the lower house, what was your (the opponents) political strategy to counter that. A coup? So it means that coup was all planned and general`s constant whining that ``I had no choice`` is plain bull-crap. And it also supports the skepticism that Musharaf and company had already planned a coup way ahead, which was due to execute as soon as his plane landed on the ground. Otherwise how is it possible with in a 1 hour and 30 minutes while Musharaf`s plane was circling in the air to not only rescue him but also to sack a whole elected government in that short interval of time. And if you are trying to tell me that Army planned all this just in those 1 hour and 30 minutes and then executed the plan then I would say ``Pak Fauj ko Salaam``. I stand in awe.

Weeeel, there you go again. I was labelling a certain group of women ``hysterical,`` etc. based upon how they made their arguments. You will pardon me if I do not choose to be impressed by histrionics, wild accusations and a complete unwillingness (inability?) to think rationally or logically about issues. Is that what passes for scholarship in Women`s Studies and the like?

BTW, thanks for posting that NYT study. Unfortunately it is completely useless since it doesn`t describe the methodology used. My guess is that its more of the same: raw averages do ``prove`` discrimination but they also prove how ignorant the people who carried out the study are. Go ask your Stats friend about how to run a regression and make a really good model (i.e., if you actually want useful results and not just to ``prove`` your political point). I`m sure she knows more than I do about this stuff since I am not an econometrician.

``...Once they started famillies, mothers who were managers could count on earning 66 percent of what fathers who were managers were paid, she said....``

I think this quotation says it all. Women who choose to have babies earn less money for the reasons I have detailed earlier. No ``discrimination.`` Why don`t you admit it that you have a political agenda? You want the US to look more like the Scandinavian welfare state where the govt pays for everything and the top marginal tax rate used to be 102%? In short, you want an equalitarian society, not an egalitarian one.

Reply #: 204 saminashah

[critiques the power imbalance between those who look/discuss and those who are looked at/discussed. How might that dynamic be applied to this board?]

That`s exactly what happens when women`s rights are discussed. I noticed you complained that not many women are participating though this board is about them. Women themselves for some reason do not participate but prefer to be talked about or defended. Maybe it`s cultural inhibitions.

That`s also what I pervceive as a chip on the shoulder. Women are perceived to have been wronged, whether true or not, and they would rather carry the flag of womanhood for their men to take of their cause, rather than they doing it themselves. They would rather make men feel guilty over some perceived wrongs done to them without achieving a proper role in society, which was never denied to them. You can just take the example of many women in our history who were great leaders and matriarchs.

I`m a firm believer, that society cannot function without due role by women in it`s functiong. As to what that role might be? It`s open to debate.

Rgds

Zeemax

Urstruly #268: ``He said he would go away after October 2002 to the barracks``

Could you point out when and where he said he would go back to the barracks after Oct 2002? All I heard him say was that he would hold elections in Oct 2002. Infact he seemed pretty straightforward about the fact that he will stay on.

``but instead he has condemned the constitution to the toilet``

Are you aware of any amendments made to the constitution? The Supreme Court has greatly limited the govts. power to amend the constitution. It is the same constitution that he inherited. Infact it was Nawaz Sharif who completely condemned the constitution with the 14th amendment that allowed him to get rid of any party members that voted against him. His Shariah Bill, through amendment 15 would have completely put the constitution on the backburner. An idiotic version of Shariah would have reigned supreme. And NS would have been able to get things passed just through simple majority. The coup actually saved the constitution from being over run by the Shariah Bill.

Are you aware of how long Z. Bhutto waited before discarding the 73 constitution in certain provinces through governor`s rule type martial laws?

So while I agree that Musharraf, through his martial law, has put the constitution on the side for three years, I don`t think it is in the toilet. All previous leaders have however condemned it. You have a choice amongst these leaders. If there was an electable leader who is honest and does not condemn the constitution to the toilet, then I will definitely support him/her.

To paraphrase Cowasjee, ``It is better to have a General in command, then a thief.``

Musharraf, Zia and Ayub are three different people, just like Jinnah and Altaf Hussain are different people, and Nawaz and Allama Iqbal are different people (even though they hail from the same provinces, ethnicities or institutions).

``Since that time, I have watched with great interest all the johnny-come-latelys attempt to jump on his bandwagon (including US Presidents).````(romair miaN)

US president jumping on ``Mushrraf`s band wagon`` – Walla keya analysis ki hai -- iss saadgee pe kaun na.... -- by any chance –- could it be the other way? -- nah it couldn’t be.

rSridhar # 250

audio-video radio etc etc etc is Studbraker etc etc etc----.

Urstruly #254

Thanks for all the compliments.

Oye Musalmano Kamjato, Kamino, Behaya, Befaa, Zaleemo, Gundo, Besharmo, saur - have some shame. It is very cold in New York so Shammi is hibernating in the Basement. I will let him know you remembered.

Fuzair,

Actually if go back and read your posts they are chockfull of typical male dismissal, starting from ``hysterical`` , compassing ``shrill`` and so forth. I don`t see my posts as falling into any of these categories and whats more`s, unless you acknowledge that you are in effect, labelling critiques of patriarchical structures in an age old manner of discrediting and marginalizing those critiques, an intellectual dishonesty is at work. Its really not my concern to write my viewpoints in a manner that is appealing to you, and I find some of your viewpoints extremely shortsighted and yes, male chauvinistic. I could pad my points with comments like, ``Relax`` and ``Don`t take it so seriously`` etc., but I won`t. But do be honest, at the very least.



My pointing to the sector we label ``privilleged white women`` and the discrimination they are facing in the prof. working world was meant to illustrate that if these economically middle class women workers are facing difficulty, imagine what the classes you profess to be concerned about are dealing with. Use it as reference point, and stop the bs about how wonderful our current systems are.

Study Finds a Growing Gap Between Managerial Salaries for Men and Women

by Elizabeth Becker

The difference in managerial salaries for men and women in American industry grew from 1985 to 2000, a Congressional study has found.

During one of the nations biggest economic booms, managerial salaries for women not only failed to catch to those of their male counterparts, they lost ground in several industries, according to the study which was released today.

In entertainment, communication, finance, insurance and retailing, the study said, the gap between men and women grew as much as 21 cents for every dollar earned.

The report by the General Accounting Office, the independent research office of Congress, looked at the salaries in the 10 industries that employed the most women from 1995-2000. I t defined a manager as any job whose description included the words administrator. director, manager of supervisor. Among other controls, the study compared salaries for full time employees only.

The study also found that women continued to be scarce in managerial ranks. Over all, women make up roughly half the workforce but only 12 percent of the corporate officers.

``While there has been overall progress for women, they are stalling or sliding back when they reach management,`` said Representative Carolyn Maloney, Democrat of Manhattan, who commissioned the study.

Mothers lost the most ground according to the report.

``The widest gap was between parents``, who were managers, said Martha Riche, an economist and former director of the Census Bureau who vetted the study for the accouting office.

...Once they started famillies, mothers who were managers could count on earning 66 percent of what fathers who were managers were paid, she said....

Women now provide at least half of the income for more than two thirds of American famillies.

``This is no longer a women`s issue, but a family issue,`` said Rep. John Dingell, Democrat od Michigan.

NYTimes, 1/24/02

Ref Romair #: 260

[Urstruly #255: I failed to understand your replies. Are you suggesting that Musharraf and Maleeha Lodhi aren`t good leaders, and not doing a good job, because they are on the Newsweek list.

There was actually one Hindu on the latest Newsweek list: Vajpayee. So you need to look at the list again.]

Urstruly is taking remedial courses at the Detroit madrassah on identifying kaffirs. As Jay is wont to say, he might have temporarily forgotten his `k for kaffir` education.

Ref hobbyty #: 263

[For more than 15 years, the world has refused to acknowledge the fascist goings on in India - Today, Indians themslves are are awakening from the stupor of the fascist instinct they have have nutured.Witness: ``the illiberal tendencies a military dictator seeks to expel, with popular support, from Pakistan seem to be finding a hospitable home in democratic India.``]

If electing Hindutva politicians is fascist, what do you call the enactment of the Blasphemy Law and the Hudood Ordinances in Pakistan? Democracy reflecting the popular will of the people?

We don`t need any fcuking lecture from fundamentalist Muslims like you tell us what fascism is. We will recognize it and nip it in the bud. The maximum allowed term for fascism or communism or any other ism in India is 5 years; after which they have to face the electorate to continue their policy.

Dost Mitter

Romair has just informed me that Bajpayee`s name is also on the list. Oh boy! you people are fcuked too. And am I happy.

Romair

What I wrote in my post has nothing to do with good or bad leadership skills of the general. And it also does not have anything to do with being an American puppet or not.

The point that I always try to make wrt general is that, even the most benevelont of the dictator has to work in two parallel fields simultaneously-he can do all the good to his people on one hand but on the other hand he is condemend to do everything bad to the same people to stay in power. The times of kingships, and sultanates are long gone. And I dont buy your assertion that he has done what he always said. He said he would go away after October 2002 to the barracks but instead he has condemned the constitution to the toilet and expected to stay as long as his C-130 doesnt blow up in the skies. He said he will establish the rule of law, and what he did is that he has incarcinated citizens of pakistan on the charges for which legislation is yet to be invented, courts yet to be established.

Admit it that he has now tasted the blood of people, and he is gonna keep his teeth stuck to our jugular until one of us whither and die. In simple words Paksitan has lost another chance at rule of constitution and law for next decades or two. We have regressed as a society to early Ayoub years. Yeah Ayoub was benevolent; he industrialized a fragile nation and taught it to stand on its feet, but at what cost? At the cost of half of the country. What good is that benevolence. What good is that leadership.

Zakk #262: Thanks for the reply and the list. As I stated, I have only mentioned people I have heard of and heard about. It is quite possible the names you have mentioned are better candidates. In which case they should be appointed.

In my opinion, cabinet positions should ideally go to technically qualified politicians. However, if their isn`t enough of a talent pool available there, then they should go to technically qualified people rather than politicians. Successful honest businessmen, in my opinion, make the best ministers. They know the problems and the solutions and have a good track record of success within the Pakistani system. While positions like Governor, MNA, Chief Minister etc. should go to politically popular people over technically qualified people.

I do not know much about Soomro, so he can be kicked out. He is a relative of the PML Soomro, and would thus give representation to the Sindhi feudals (a very powerful block in Pakistani politics). The governor of Sindh would have to be a rural Sindhi, with Musharraf (an urban Sindhi) being the President. Abdul Hafiz Shaikh may be better than Moeen Qureshi (I don`t know). Mengal will probably stay as the Governor of Baluchistan. If Iqbal Haider is better than Aitezaz Ahsan, then fine. I think the PPP leadership needs to be in the hands of urbanites, and out of the hands of feudals. So both fit the bill.

Imran Khan would be an excellent choice for governor. Look at the guy`s track record in everything he has touched (except politics, so far) and conviction and honesty. He is now a much mature politician than before. His party will get the third or fourth highest number of votes in the whole country (even though they will not win many seats). Who else has done anything for Punjab, who would make a better candidate?

The only thing I know about Makhdoom Khaliquzzaman are his long mustache and orange and yellow coats and pants. So I cannot say.

Afrasiab Khattak is defintely a good choice. Although, I am not sure whether he is interested in politics. If he is, then he should definitely be in. I am quite impressed with Asfandyar Wali Khan in all the interviews I have heard. Very balanced. A good choice for Chief Minister, hence not a governor candidate. Although, I have a great dislke for all the politicians in Pakistan who have already been tried. If they are so good, then why didn`t they improve Pakistan before. Don`t you think it is time for new blood, like Omer Asghar Khan (the guy is a philanthrapist and a politician, a rarity in Pakistan). If not him, then Asghar Khan. He single-handedly built one of the best and most technically advanced Air Forces in the world in a third world country. He was decades ahead of his time.

Dr. Mubarak Ali, I dont know much about. While I am a great admirer of the efforts of people like Pervez Hoodbhoy, they lack the maturity to handle positions of responsibility outside the university. His views outside his own area of expertise, in many cases, are quite ill-informed and based more on emotion than fact. He would however make a great vice chancellor for a research university.

Fuzair #265
In saying affirmative action benefiting white women who wouldnot get hired otherwise, I meant that without the campaign for equal oportunity, white women quite as competent and qualified as white men wouldnot have gotten hired because men were doing the hiring and they had a mindset about the suitability of employing women.

``OK, I could hazard guess: evil, Pakistani brute!``
You mean like every other Pakistani :)?

``you certainly don`t get my dander up``
Nice to hear that but something gets Samina`s dander up so you are quits. Being a guy doesnot make you more right, so there.

IMO, yourself and Samina have each had painful experiences on opposite sides of the divide and are reacting more to those painful experiences, than what the other posted here, namely reasonable readings of both sides of the question. I don`t think Samina was talking about the same `doing 2+2 = 4 is unwomanly or testable hypothesis is a male construct`(I can`t believe people actually say this). I am grateful because I find both your posts informative except the ad homine remarks of course.

I agree with Sameer that in general (though not in the sciences or anything requiring reason!!)womyn are either the foot soldiers or last line of defense at the male bastions/ barricades and their womynly anger is not inappropriate when the odds are weighted so heavily against them. Whether womynness is counterproductive in all US contexts, is something I hope to hear more about.

Re: Sadna #256

Quite right about the benefeciaries of US affirmative action. They have indeed been overwhelmingly white, middle-class women, which is one of the reasons why I am against gender/ethnicity based affirmative action. Not because women benefit from it [despite what Samina Shah would say ;-)] but because the benefits of such affirmative action almost always go to those who deserve/need it the least--the best-off of any such group--and the ones who need it the most get diddly. Socio-economic class based affirmative action is my preferred tool if we must insist on such social engineering experiments (although I would prefer to fix the poor public schools as a necessary first step in a more rational ``affirmative action`` policy).

Actually, I am not really in favor of hounding out and hunting down any one, not even difference-feminists. The tone of some, many, of Ms. Shah`s posts--annoying holier than thou, self-righteous smugness--reminds me of the shrill whining and shrieking I heard in grad school and the last few posts just really rubbed me the wrong way.

While you and I have rarely, if ever, interacted directly, I think its safe to say that many of our views would be diametrically opposed to one another. I don`t know what reaction I inspire in you (OK, I could hazard guess: evil, Pakistani brute!) but you certainly don`t get my dander up the same way that Ms. Shah`s posts do! This is in spite of the fact that, in broad terms, I think I would probably agree more with her than with you!
I think Ms. Shah would probably make a more effective advocate for her cause if she would take a slightly less confrontational attitude and chuck the ``difference feminist`` bilge where it belongs.

Regards.

The solution of giving women empowerment in a top down method is not going to work. While I support 1/3rd of the seats in the National Assembly, I doubt it will make too much difference in changing the condition of common women in Pakistan. It will prove as successful as having BB as a Prime Minister. Rich feudal men with no concern about common women will be replaced by rich feudal women with no concern about common women. Assuming that the aim is to improve the condition of women, and not to replace snoring male MNAs with snoring female MNAs, this is not a correct solution.

What will work is a bottom-up method. The current devolution plan giving 1/3rd reserved seats to women in local politics is going to do far more to improve the condition of women in Pakistan, then appointing women MNAs and ministers just because they are women. Another thing that needs to be done is to allow free education to all girls till matriculate. And high level of affirmative action for girls in all universities. And all the discriminatory laws against women like Hudood etc. need to be removed, etc. etc.

If one is just going to believe in top level affirmative action as the solution, then why stop at the assemblies? Why not state that 50% of Pakistani CEOs should be women? 50% of Pakistani Generals should be women. 50% of the military chiefs should be women (there are women generals in the military, you know). 50% of Pakistani airline pilots should be women. 50% of Pakistan police should be women. 50% of Pakistani taxi drivers should be women. So on and so forth.

While I do hope that the above does happen someday in Pakistan, forcing it through a top down law will cause more harm to women, than help. There won`t be enough competent female candidates available. The result will be more airplane crashes, more taxi crashes (how many women would be confident enough to drive cabs in the first place, so there will be a cab driver shortage), lack of discipline in the military, etc.

So how should the women empowerment be constituted: Lets take the practical example of female doctors. Pakistani medical colleges now have more female students than male students. In a few prominent medical colleges, girls constitute upto 70% of the student body. If these girls graduate and practice their profession, in ten to twenty years, there will be more female doctors in Pakistan than male doctors. At that point, the system will automatically have to adjust, and women will occupy very powerful positions in the medical field, because they will constitute the biggest talent pool.

Let`s take another example: The largest university in Pakistan, Karachi University, has more female students than male students. Once again, in ten to twenty years, it is possible that the liberal arts field of Karachi will thus have more women than men, and hence women will end up occupying the powerful positions.

Even in the US, affirmative action is not used at CEO level positions. It is used at most till middle management. Similarly, if Pakistani women are put into positions of power without first developing the women talent pool, the result will hurt women. If the two or three women pilots who are currently in PIA are made 747 pilots immediately through affirmative action, what will happen? They may end up crashing their planes. Will it be easier or more difficult for women to enter the flying profession, after that. A better solution would be to induct more girls into Pakistani flying clubs and then into PIA as entry level pilots, through affirmative action. Let these women then form the talent pool out of which the best and most experienced can become 747 pilots.

Empowerment of any group that has been sidelined for centuries is a slow process. It cannot be done just with a few laws. And the most important factor is the leadership provided by the influential members of the sidelined group. All said and done, women will have to force their way into the Pakistani mainstream, because there will be too many people (both powerful and weak men and powerful women) who will attempt to keep them sidelined. Every Pakistani leader is not going to be as open-minded as Musharraf. The influential well looked after women of Pakistan will have to lead this struggle. This is the area where unfortunately Pakistan has a great lacking. I have met very few influential Pakistani women who are willing to become role models for the less privelaged women in Pakistan.

Urstruly #255: I failed to understand your replies. Are you suggesting that Musharraf and Maleeha Lodhi aren`t good leaders, and not doing a good job, because they are on the Newsweek list.

There was actually one Hindu on the latest Newsweek list: Vajpayee. So you need to look at the list again.

As for Musharraf being an American agent. I highly doubt it. I have been supporting Musharraf since day one, when people were calling him a religious fanatic, a muterwa, and God knows what else. Since that time, I have watched with great interest all the johnny-come-latelys attempt to jump on his bandwagon (including US Presidents). Rest assured, Musharraf has and will do what is in Pakistan`s interest. I have worked for too many Generals to not be able to pick out the good ones from the bad ones. Everything I stated about him since day one has so far proven to be accurate.

Wait for a few weeks, and you will be introduced to how the militant freedom struggle in Kashmir actually works, and who the concerned parties are, in the storyline that I have been researching.

urstruly #254 you write ``Oye Hinduo, Badmasho, transvestito, doghlay bandro, langooro`` Since I am getting tired of this routine (where you write some bs and I step in with a whistle), please do me a favor next time and add this line at the end on my behalf: ``PS: I urstruly declare that I have no control over my language, and like all madmen should be permitted to do the rounds on chowk shouting curses. Also pray please contribute to the fund to get me some electric shock treatment so I may be cured of this horrible disease. Thank you.`` This way, I wont have to waste my time and you can become a one-man show all by yourself.

For more than 15 years, the world has refused to acknowledge the fascist goings on in India - Today, Indians themslves are are awakening from the stupor of the fascist instinct they have have nutured.Witness: ``the illiberal tendencies a military dictator seeks to expel, with popular support, from Pakistan seem to be finding a hospitable home in democratic India.``

February 25, 2002 - New York Times

``Hinduism`s Political Resurgence

By PANKAJ MISHRA

NEW DELHI -- A few weeks ago I was in Ayodhya, a North Indian pilgrimage town. In 1992 a crowd of Hindu men demolished a 16th-century mosque in Ayodhya. They claimed it had been built by the Mogul emperor Babur over the birthplace of Lord Rama. India changed fast after that moment of Hindu nationalist rage. The politicians who had led the crowd to the mosque that morning and later watched their followers erect Hindu idols over the rubble — and who for most of the 50 years since independence had been on the political sidelines — now hold top positions in the Indian government.

Since the 1992 destruction, an enthusiasm for the free market has also overtaken India, but the new middle- class affluence hasn`t reached Ayodhya. Down its monkey-infested alleyways, the richest people are still Hindu abbots. One whom I met in Ayodhya was Ramchandra Paramhans, who helped initiate, in 1950, the legal battle for the temple and who in the early 1980`s entered into an opportunistic alliance with Hindu nationalist organizations then attempting to attract Hindu voters through an explicitly anti- Muslim program.

Mr. Paramhans described to me, as he fed cows in his vast straw-littered compound, how he had upbraided India`s home minister, L. K. Advani, on the phone that morning for having neglected the temple issue. In his white dreadlocks and long beard, he seemed like a Hindu version of the self-important mullahs I had met in Pakistan. But senior bureaucrats really had traveled, a few weeks before, to his compound to mollify him after he threatened to bring down the government. And a few days after my visit to Ayodhya, Mr. Paramhans showed up in New Delhi at the head of a heavily publicized procession of abbots to deliver personally a blunt ultimatum to Prime Minister Behari Vajpayee.

I couldn`t help but recall my meeting early last year with some prominent Islamic clerics and politicians at an old madrasa near Peshawar, Pakistan. The madrasa had become notorious after some of its alumni became the leaders of the Taliban. Its teachers were keen to impress upon me the apolitical nature of their work. I suspected they were dissembling, but I was more struck by their defensiveness. It was as though they could sense what has been confirmed since by the fundamentalists` failure to stir up trouble for Pervez Musharraf: that public opinion overwhelmingly opposes the fanatical ideologies that have undermined Pakistan in every way. It is this strong anti-extremist sentiment that General Musharraf now relies on — much more than American support — in his crackdown on militant groups and his more discreet confrontations with the ideologues given high places by the previous military ruler, Mohammad Zia ul- Haq.

While General Musharraf strives toward a secular polity, the ruling politicians of India head in the opposite direction. Hindu nationalists have long exalted Hindutva, or Hindu-ness, over the secular identities proposed for India by Gandhi and Nehru. So now the federal minister for education, Murli Manohar Joshi, promotes a new Indian history that highlights the depredations of Muslim invaders (as they are called) and celebrates Hindu bravery. Mr. Joshi has also allocated funds for such ``Hindu sciences`` as astrology. This sectarian-minded education is objected to by many of India`s distinguished historians — especially those who had stressed India`s pluralist traditions in their now discarded textbooks. Mr. Joshi recently denounced these historians as ``academic terrorists`` who were more difficult to fight than the usual kind of terrorist.

This may be bluster; and perhaps India`s largest-circulation news magazine, India Today, describes an isolated mood in a recent cover story on the ``return of the militant Hindu.`` But that mood does exist. Fed by a patriotic media and film industry and reflected in bellicose posturing against Pakistan, it nearly dominates public life now; its urban middle-class constituency hopes that nationalism may provide a measure of security against the economic and political crises that, in the early 90`s, had looked so threatening. And nationalist leaders continue to strengthen their hold over the heavily centralized Indian state as their constituents continue to gain from a globalized economy.

An antiterrorist ordinance — introduced by the government before the recent attacks on the parliaments in Kashmir and Delhi — would have required up to three years` imprisonment for a journalist who failed to assist government authorities. It has been challenged by human rights groups and political parties concerned about the possibility of its misuse against minorities. In any case, the ordinance is unlikely to curtail the activities of Hindu extremist outfits affiliated with the government like Shiv Sena, which claimed some credit for demolishing the Babri mosque in Ayodhya in December 1992 and was indicted by a judicial commission for inciting the pogrom against Muslims in Bombay in 1993.

What was once quickly identified as unreasonable and aberrant — Hindu majoritarianism — enjoys a growing influence and legitimacy as the ruling ideology of the Indian government. Oddly, the illiberal tendencies a military dictator seeks to expel, with popular support, from Pakistan seem to be finding a hospitable home in democratic India.

Pankaj Mishra is author of ``The Romantics,`` a novel.``

Re Omair:

The defence you use for competence and professionalism is an old one, Technocrats from my experience tend to be good only when they have political direction from strong leaders, they lack the spine to be bold and sensitivity to feel the pulse of people. I am speaking from personal experence with the technocrats appointed as Ministers in NWFP.

I would like to make a critique of one candidate Soomro does not impress, Mian Soomro was one of three appointed to NCB`s by the not so Sharif,

The other 2 Shaukat Tarin and Zubyr Soomro did a much better job then MMS, the one who did the worst job with the National Bank of Pakistan was made Governor of Sindh. Perhaps a little jealousy from the Citibanker finance Min, scuttled ZS and ST from getting a more senior appointment?

I would also add to the list of people you are recommending, the fine Abdul Hafiz Shaikh finance Min Sindh, he`s been given very high marks by people and I recently read an excellent interview with him in the Herald.

Another person who gets very high marks is The Governor of Baluchistan, Mengal..is the only Governor to have stayed from the beginning and his relationship with the Army has been given high marks , as well as maintaining a clean provincial govt after massive abuse.

At the Political level, I would drop aitaz ahsan and go for Iqbal Haider, the thought of Omer Asghar Khan as Gov NWFP is scary by the way!! To much techno babble, and the guys got little to show for what he`s done in NWFP..besides build a constutency which might for once let him beat Gohar Ayub in Haripur. Another scary thought is Imran Khan as Gov Punjab( I know your a PTI guy..but hell he`s gonna make the Nawab of Kalabagh look nice, and hasnt he got enough guys in the cabinet already..Sattar, Aziz..Owais Ghani)

To speak of representation from Baluchistan, Hayee Baluch, Khude nOor, Mahmood Achakzai

In Sindh, I think high of Makhdoom Khaliquzaman

From NWFP, foriegn affairs, Bashir Matta, human Rights, Afrasiab Khattak( the present chairman of the HRCP, who replaced Asma Jehangir, he refused to take a cabinet post initially under a Military govt), you want political leadership, Asfandyer Wali, Ajmal Khattak( the first politican to meet Musharraf and tipped to replace Tarrar at one point), Others who get high marks are Qazi Anwar one of the best Lawyers in the country, Adnan Aurenzeib from Swat, served as parlimentry Secretary and got high amrks for being clean and competent.

There are a lot of others, I can name but thats just those that come to my mind, for other technocrats, I am sure they are a lot in teh diaspora,

O personal choice from Old punjab..personal favourites..Dr Mubarak Ali, and Chowks very own Pervaiz Hoodhboy. Thats about it!! Comments please!

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Just take the well documented data about prison population, crime rate or even speeding tickets. women, being half of the population, contribute little to disturb the peace of any society. Either it is not in their nature or they do not get as many chances to go astray. If their nature is less ``evil``, why not count on it? If they do not get equal chances of corruption or crime, they are less empowered.

In places like Pakistan or even the West, the womyn type have not contributed to the failing of the societies. They are more likely to provide the second or even last line of defense. The fight is really on the frontlines, with one side being too powerful to lose easily. From women`s point of view, nobody should lose: instead a win-win situation is exactly in line with their nature and to their benefit.

Pakistani politics is a caste or biradri based, particularly since the non-party based elections of Zia Ulhaq. The King`s party (PML-QA) in Pakistan is made up of more caste or tribal-affiliation based politicians than any other political party. If he is satisfied with baradri based elections; why not another baradri, another lower caste that represents half of the population - the gender lower caste. At least here is a ``party`` with no beggage of corruption, extraconstitutional take overs or involvement in sectarian violence.

I wonder, even in Afghanistan, how much blame for the total devastation during the last 22 years - since the arrival of Russian soldiers - can be placed on women? Almost nothing. Instead they have only one kind of contribution, more than equal contribution when it comes to counting and documenting sufferings.

Fuzair #248
You do realise that for every rabid difference-feminist who insists she is right only because she is a male-afflicted woman, there are even more men, who insist they are right simply because they are men ? How many such difference-feminists are in decisionmaking positions compared to such men?

If you feel compelled to crusade against one group, why protest when others go on crusades about the other and with more reason?

I have heard it said that the biggest beneficiaries of affirmative action and equal employment opportunity efforts in the US were white women who just wouldn`t get hired otherwise.

Further to 253.

And I forgot the name of our very own, Benazir Bhutto, the daughter of East (bought her graduation from oxford). Prime Minister twice. Head of largest political party in Pakistan PPP (Perpetually Pregnant Prime Minister-as dubbed by newsweek)

Oye Hinduo, Badmasho, transvestito, doghlay bandro, langooro!

Where is SHAMMI. Tell him its not the first time and it is not gonna be the last time. I was actually flattered to see that someone had actually created himself in my image and called himself Urstru(1)y.

THat is OK, he can come back, I wont eat him.

Romair # 228

AOOZUBILLAH E Minashytan-Nirajeem

The following people had also been on the Newsweeks and times` most influential people who were supposed to change the century and the world.

Zia-ul-Haq
Anwar Sadaat
Shah Iran
Marcos
The Isreali Prime minister who was murdered, cant recall his name.
A couple of South American dictators.
Gorbachev
Boris Yelstin
Shah Hassain of Jordan

Every one of them did change the world-for Americans.

The new list includes:

Musharaf

Hamid Karzai (this baldy is also on the top of US & Euro faggot fashion designers).

and miscelleneous change that you mentioned.

It is good to see that no Hindu has ever made to the top 100 people who will change the world.

na na na na na na na na na

Romair #246 How about saving some slots for some of us on chowk in the national/provincial governments that you are forming?? How about a district for your brother?? Just one lousy district, that`s all I ask for!!

Rsaxena #243 further to my post below, and in case you are wondering, the reason is that chowk is not a law court either. (It is a discussion group, and the quality of discussion is dependent on common sense, not on the use of legalistic loopholes when convenient.)

Rsaxena #243 you write ``you`d make a horrible lawyer...`` At least we agree on that (although not for the same reasons, I think).

re:Reply #: 247

audio-video-radio,

Why don`t you reveal your real identity you idiot. Then we can talk. Sridhar is an implant. What kind of nonsensical statement is that? Where did you get education? In some corporation school?

We are 3rd generation Tamilians who made Delhi their home a long time before the immigrants from Pak came. My grandfather and my father were both with Central Govt. My dad ended up getting transferred to Bombay and eventually to Madras where he is settled. So much for your calling me an implant. Go and figure how many Tamilians are living in Karolbagh, R.K Puram and other such places.

Your analysis of the amount spent is all faulty but i will not go into that again. Converting all that into dollars is ludicrous. I was trying to make a point. This has nothing to do with how much it cost my dad. He was also paying for my sister`s B.E course when she was in Pune all by herself in a hostel. So, add that to the amount. If you think you are smart, go and figure how much that would have cost my dad. See, what i am getting at? Of course, you don`t.

Let us know a little more about you and then we can talk. You obviously have no idea about Delhi otherwise you would not be making such ridiculous statements. May be you are a fukcing implant on this society. In which case, we do not have to deal with you at all.

Sridhar

To the interactors on this board:

Perhaps you might wish to take a look at the following two sites. The first one is an article in Mother Jones, hardly a hard right magazine, on contemporary feminist thought. The second is responses to the initial article and the author`s reaction to the responses. Might be enlightening to some of you.

http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/SO93/lehrman.html

http://www.motherjones.com/mother_jones/ND93/backtalk.html


BTW, I came across these articles well after my grad school experiences and after they had been written. My personal experience in two different US research universities fully supports Ms. Lehrman`s contentions.

Regards.

``A second package of proposed Constitutional amendment packages, unfolded by the government for a public debate, recommended that the President will appoint the Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee,

Chief of Army Staff, Vice Chief of Army Staff, Chief of Air Staff,

Vice Chief of Air Staff,

Chief of Naval Staff,

Vice Chief of Naval Staff,

Chief Election Commissioner,

Auditor General of Pakistan,

Chairman Federal Public Services Commission, Supreme Judicial Council,

and Chairman National Accountability Bureau.``(Nation)

AND -- the President will appoint the NEXT President of Pakistan -- called Musharraf -- who will appoint the NEXT President Pakistan -- called Mushrraf -- who will appoint the NEXT President -- called Musharraf -- who will appoint the next President ALSO called Musharraf -- and Pakistan will live happily everafter under MUSHOCRACY.

Tum slaamat raho hazasr baras/har baras ke hoN din pachaas hazaar .... calculator please.

Zakk #235: `` I would make a comment, in his slection of people, he has not mentioned (with the exception of BB) a single Sindhi, nor a Single pashtun or Baluchi in the list of people competent enough to head a new Govt.``

It is an incomplete cabinet. So you can add the names of your choice. But I have based it on merit, not on provincial or gender preferences. By the way, Musharraf himself belongs to Sindh. If you mean ethnically a Sindhi, then why not include a Saraiki, a Potohari, a Kashmiri, etc. And furthur, why not a Gujarati, someone from UP amongst the urban Sindhis, etc.

Ethnic balance is very important in the representation of the people. However at the cabinet level, only competence should count. The other thing that should count is representation of all political parties. If there are more competent Sindhis, Baluchis etc. than the current names, then they should be included. But not just because they are Sindhis or Baluchis, or women or minorities. But because of their competencies.

The overwhelmingly educated class of Pakistan comes from urban Karachi (because of their high education rates), and urban Punjab (because of their high population, and from men (due to very low literacy and professional opportunities given to women). For example, 80% of Pakistan`s IT companies are in Karachi. And 80% of Pakistan`s IT exports are from Lahore. And nearly all these companies are run by men. So while their maybe many competent Sindhi and Baluchi minority women in IT, an overwhelming amount of Pakistan`s computer scientists are from Karachi, and then from Lahore, and they are men. Ditto in other fields. So most of the people in the cabinet will end up being from these groups. Just like nearly the whole cricket team of Pakistan is always from Karachi and Lahore (with a few from Multan and Pindi). The solution to this problem is to spread cricket in other areas of Pakistan. But players from under represented areas should only be included in the team, if they are the best players, not because they are from a certain ethnicity.

Maleeha Lodhi maybe a Baluchi (I am not sure). Amongst governors, Omer Ashgar Khan is from NWFP (does it really make a difference whether he is not a Pushtun). Soomro is a Sindhi. Other positions could be filled by people from other provinces. However, cabinet positions make or break a country, and should never be based on affirmative action, nor on mere political popularity. They should be based on technical comptency, spread over all political parties.

I would however be intereted in your suggestions on whom you would replace in the list I provided.

anNy #234 you write ``nasah sahab,

Your critisism of pakistan would serve a better purpose were it done in a respecful manner. Thus people would read and better themselves. This way, reeking with patronizing and amusement, it does little good. Many like myself would be cursing you mildly inside our sad little jehadi minds and therefore it serves little purpose for we will remain the same bumpkins you feel contempt for and hate so much.

Hoping you will understand and be kinder, kind sir.``

You put it much, much than I did in responding to that post - I essentially let nasah sahab off the hook by responding to his Eid Mubarak and not requesting him to share the ``amusement`` he felt at my post.

nasah: Would you care to explain exactly what it was in my post you found amusing? If I had written a post gloating over India`s loss of image as a result of a murder having taken place there (as you did), I would upon further thought have been ashamed, not amused, of the superficial and callous attitude towards tragic event it represents.

Romair

Wow! That`s an impressive and detailed list - with exception of BB - children are a blessing, ambition can live only if the progeny are atleast alive - BB is a receckless gambler - she needs to retire. Many persons have had very succesful second and third careers. With regard to Mr. Gen. Musharraf, there is only one acceptable way he can be elected - that`s if he resign his commisson. This is a real problem; must have reasonable and responsible team to lead the institutions of the armed forces. I think, if it were to be decided that he should stand for elections - he would win; PML, PPP are not the only organizational players who can deliver. Plus it helps to have friends. Shaukat Aziz as Premier? which party would adopt him? but if Mr. Soomro had given up other avenues earlier, and really makes a good show, as there is concensus that he is making - he would be an acceptable choice.

Your list is really excellent food for thought and I must admit that I was not as focused on the personalities - with the exception of BB - I was more focused on what kinds of constitutional remedies may be offered, so that it will not matter as much as it did in the past, who forms the government. My concerns beyond the constitutional remedies are a public debate to introduce ``prefectures`` and do away with ``provinces`` - the prefectures numbering more than fifty (yes, it`s arbitrary number in a way, but the concern is create a new awareness based on administrative efficiency and service, as opposed to the usual tripe about ``identity`` whether religious, language based or cultural or ethnic). In general a ``system`` for Pakistan, which will absorb the tensions that are generated and used to political advantage.

My other concerns are the restructuring and redirecting of ministeries, so as to redefine governance - ``rulers``, ``traders`` these terms define our present. What kinds of changes must occur for us to see these as ``officials``, ``adminstrators`` and ``business persons`` - the potential scope and scale of restructuring is really breath taking. The direction must be the enabling of citizens and enterprizes, with incentives towards national objectives. Simultaneously, a strong accountablity or feedback loop as part of the mission of government institutions.

At the same time, I am interested in the restructuring of the armed forces and the defence industrial production sector. The armed forces restructured to meet the present and future threat, with the emphasis going to intelligence, air and sea. And defence Institutions producing significant numbers of Masters and Phd level officers and scientists. The defence industrial mechanism devolved to include a large number of local smaller industrial concerns, overall forming a the backbone or foundations of a larger industrialization in the country.

All of this requires a general peace, breathing space, a deal acceptable to the Kashmiri peoples - a deal acceptable to the Afghani - above all it requires Americans to be based in or close to Pakistan, even if, for five years.

re: TAhmed

{{Rsaxena #221 Please dont confuse people by carrying over your outrage at what I wrote from another board, and one that is now on the dreaded ``Next`` page.}}

...you should know by now that i don`t feel `outrage` at anything