Ras Siddiqui February 22, 2002
#118 Posted by id on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
On Human Beings and Revenge:
Emotion is an irrational yet integral part of what humans are, and in one way it is a higher control mechanism then what exists in animals (i.e. the id). The main program (i.e. the primary function) dictating out existence is survival which we as humans share with the animals, but somehow our brains evolved into a much more complex control system (i.e. the ego).
Human Beings and animals are a result of their conditioning. A child is a clean slate when he enters this world, and family, society, education, they all scribble on this slate, to present the individual that exists. As a part of the society, the individual is conditioned to a particular value system, and since in this process he has had no other experiences (hence no other reality), he has little choice to be anything else (he has choice, but I will talk about that later). Hence to blame a person for his ``crimes`` against you is to blame yourself for ``crimes`` against him (in rational terms). Hence on this forum if an indian behaves the way he does and blames a pakistani and a pakistani blames the indian the way he does amounts to 2 seperate realities, one for each being defined by his value system. There is no universal truth which exists since our realities are shaped by our experiences.
By now you might be wondering how this is all linked to revenge. The link is quite simple. The ego is developed in a particular value system in which the ``good`` for the community/nation is held as an ultimate state of being, it is glorified, it is re-enforced through different mediums. Revenge starts at micro-level and gets to the macro level with increasing glory, i.e. the right to hold accountable the person(s) for their crimes against you -- your family -- your community -- your nation.
This post is in no way justifying any crimes; rather it is just explaining human behaviour, and this pertains to ourselves as well as to the killers. We are given the same slate to begin with, its just who writes on them that defines us.
As educated individuals, we can understand this subtle yet such an important distinction, and this is where our ``choice`` comes in. An educated individual has a choice to decide if he will remain a part of something that he is conditioned to, or will he rise above this conditioning, and have a better understanding. This is indeed the ultimate test of transcendance; i.e. how high can a human rise.
Emotion is an irrational yet integral part of what humans are, and in one way it is a higher control mechanism then what exists in animals (i.e. the id). The main program (i.e. the primary function) dictating out existence is survival which we as humans share with the animals, but somehow our brains evolved into a much more complex control system (i.e. the ego).
Human Beings and animals are a result of their conditioning. A child is a clean slate when he enters this world, and family, society, education, they all scribble on this slate, to present the individual that exists. As a part of the society, the individual is conditioned to a particular value system, and since in this process he has had no other experiences (hence no other reality), he has little choice to be anything else (he has choice, but I will talk about that later). Hence to blame a person for his ``crimes`` against you is to blame yourself for ``crimes`` against him (in rational terms). Hence on this forum if an indian behaves the way he does and blames a pakistani and a pakistani blames the indian the way he does amounts to 2 seperate realities, one for each being defined by his value system. There is no universal truth which exists since our realities are shaped by our experiences.
By now you might be wondering how this is all linked to revenge. The link is quite simple. The ego is developed in a particular value system in which the ``good`` for the community/nation is held as an ultimate state of being, it is glorified, it is re-enforced through different mediums. Revenge starts at micro-level and gets to the macro level with increasing glory, i.e. the right to hold accountable the person(s) for their crimes against you -- your family -- your community -- your nation.
This post is in no way justifying any crimes; rather it is just explaining human behaviour, and this pertains to ourselves as well as to the killers. We are given the same slate to begin with, its just who writes on them that defines us.
As educated individuals, we can understand this subtle yet such an important distinction, and this is where our ``choice`` comes in. An educated individual has a choice to decide if he will remain a part of something that he is conditioned to, or will he rise above this conditioning, and have a better understanding. This is indeed the ultimate test of transcendance; i.e. how high can a human rise.
#117 Posted by Chotu on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
The plot is very thick. I would say that the higher echelons of the Pakistani establishment are moving away from tacit support of terrorist and criminal outfits. However, with equal if not more confidence I would say that many terrorists, and terrorist sympathizers are still employed in the government agencies. Read http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/25/international/asia/25PEAR.html
Pakistan cannot be half-assed with its clean-up operation. Before liquidating Omar Sheikh & co., links to current terrorist sympathizers serving, or having served in intelligence agencies must be followed. But wait a minute, shouldn`t someone in the government have this information already ? If the current Pakistani leadership has `little` information on the terrorist groups it provided support, arms and the means to conduct `operations`, then they really are a very sorry bunch.
Is Pakistan telling these guys to lie low and save their energies and efforts for Kashmir ? Can they be that stupid and short-sighted ? If not, then why aren`t we seeing more arrests and convictions ? The police and army can take out people when they really need to (fake encounters in Karachi). Why are they lost and need prodding now ?
Apart from the ongoing investigation, Musharaf was right when he said that the people caught so far need to be made an example of... hangings for Omar Shaikh & Co. are in order. Other accomplices (Masood Azhar and the entire Jaish outfit) need to be crushed, in a way that they lose the will and the means to operate.
Will Pakistan go all the way or will it let the Kashmir cause, make it lose its morals, its ethics, and it`s own security once again ?
The kind of cleanup required should be measured in scope against the Karachi clean-up by Naseerullah Babar. It should be the same if not more. The terrorist centers in Pakistan or AJK should be shut down and their leaders put away to send a strong message. In the process, the moles and terrorists in the agencies will be exposed as they see their fellow terrorists suffer and try to protect/warn them.
Long way to go.....the question is: Are we still saving some terrorists in reserve for Kashmir ?
Pakistan cannot be half-assed with its clean-up operation. Before liquidating Omar Sheikh & co., links to current terrorist sympathizers serving, or having served in intelligence agencies must be followed. But wait a minute, shouldn`t someone in the government have this information already ? If the current Pakistani leadership has `little` information on the terrorist groups it provided support, arms and the means to conduct `operations`, then they really are a very sorry bunch.
Is Pakistan telling these guys to lie low and save their energies and efforts for Kashmir ? Can they be that stupid and short-sighted ? If not, then why aren`t we seeing more arrests and convictions ? The police and army can take out people when they really need to (fake encounters in Karachi). Why are they lost and need prodding now ?
Apart from the ongoing investigation, Musharaf was right when he said that the people caught so far need to be made an example of... hangings for Omar Shaikh & Co. are in order. Other accomplices (Masood Azhar and the entire Jaish outfit) need to be crushed, in a way that they lose the will and the means to operate.
Will Pakistan go all the way or will it let the Kashmir cause, make it lose its morals, its ethics, and it`s own security once again ?
The kind of cleanup required should be measured in scope against the Karachi clean-up by Naseerullah Babar. It should be the same if not more. The terrorist centers in Pakistan or AJK should be shut down and their leaders put away to send a strong message. In the process, the moles and terrorists in the agencies will be exposed as they see their fellow terrorists suffer and try to protect/warn them.
Long way to go.....the question is: Are we still saving some terrorists in reserve for Kashmir ?
#116 Posted by scout on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
veeresh #106,
what`s all this baalti business, if yours are better, good for you. those damn things should be done away with. it`s annoying to see ugly old baltis hanging out, accumulating mildew and soap scum in beautiful tubs in desi households.
what`s all this baalti business, if yours are better, good for you. those damn things should be done away with. it`s annoying to see ugly old baltis hanging out, accumulating mildew and soap scum in beautiful tubs in desi households.
#115 Posted by scout on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
suxena #99, ``dear, yahaan adults baat kar rahe hain.``
to tum yahan kya kar rahay ho?
``jao baazu ki gali me khelo...``
don`t you mean `baaju?` please be true to your Indian heritage.
to tum yahan kya kar rahay ho?
``jao baazu ki gali me khelo...``
don`t you mean `baaju?` please be true to your Indian heritage.
#114 Posted by soysauce on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
Though i invariably disagree with her, here`s an article by Varsha that i almost completely agree with (except for some parts where the pitch is a little too shrill for my taste). She lays out a case for why Pearl`s death may be good for paki spooks.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/feb/25varsha.htm
http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/feb/25varsha.htm
#113 Posted by arjun_m on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
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#112 Posted by hariharan on February 25, 2002 4:43:16 pm
Await the next big cliche`, ``Peaceful religion``.
Individuals must take responsibility for their own action.
Why is it from Louis Farrakhan to some maulaua, people keep saying, ``islam doesn`t allow this, doesn`t condone violence``, etc.
What if religion indeed allows violence to achieve ends, would an individual do it or have the gall to stand up and change behavior and accept responsibility.
Regards
Individuals must take responsibility for their own action.
Why is it from Louis Farrakhan to some maulaua, people keep saying, ``islam doesn`t allow this, doesn`t condone violence``, etc.
What if religion indeed allows violence to achieve ends, would an individual do it or have the gall to stand up and change behavior and accept responsibility.
Regards
#111 Posted by Faruk on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
Ras # 56
?I was of the belief that Pakistan took a wrong turn in 1971 and that 1977 was ``Sonay Pay Suhaga``
or the ``mother of all bad turns``.
Ras I would be interested to read an objective analysis of the above, your opinion and that of other Pakistani?s . May be as another article.
Regards,Faruk.
?I was of the belief that Pakistan took a wrong turn in 1971 and that 1977 was ``Sonay Pay Suhaga``
or the ``mother of all bad turns``.
Ras I would be interested to read an objective analysis of the above, your opinion and that of other Pakistani?s . May be as another article.
Regards,Faruk.
#110 Posted by tahmed321 on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
hobbyty #90 you write ``Many Pakistanis are only now waking up to the kind of infiltration``
By infiltration I assume you mean infiltration of foreign Al Qaeda terrorists into Pakistan, or of this LSE-``educated`` Sheikh or of the leader of the Jaish Terrorist Group? I am so glad you are talking about hounding these animals until they are brought to justice or (better yet) handed over to the Indians of Americans so they dont waste government funds paying to keep their miserable carcasses alive in Pakistani jails.
Of course, if you have insider knowledge about this infiltration being an Indian plot, I trust you will be good enough to share it with us.
PS BJP lost it`s state elections. Congratulations to the voters of these Indian states for their excellent choice.
By infiltration I assume you mean infiltration of foreign Al Qaeda terrorists into Pakistan, or of this LSE-``educated`` Sheikh or of the leader of the Jaish Terrorist Group? I am so glad you are talking about hounding these animals until they are brought to justice or (better yet) handed over to the Indians of Americans so they dont waste government funds paying to keep their miserable carcasses alive in Pakistani jails.
Of course, if you have insider knowledge about this infiltration being an Indian plot, I trust you will be good enough to share it with us.
PS BJP lost it`s state elections. Congratulations to the voters of these Indian states for their excellent choice.
#109 Posted by tahmed321 on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
scout #94 you quote veeresh #46 when he writes ``Maybe it is our fault that we are not white?`` and say ``truer, more profound words have never been written on Chowk before. i salute you for this revelation, without which my life would have been an utter waste.``
What veeresh really meant was ``Maybe it is our fault that we are not right?`` (the ``right`` bacame ``white`` for the same reason that Elmer Fudd talks about the ``wascally wabbit``. Veeres now realizes (having been educated by fine chowk teachers like you and anNy) that he has been wrong all this time when he wrote mean things about Pakistan, and now walks the streets of Delhi, repeating this sad phrase over and over again to himself. Sometimes jay joins him too.
What veeresh really meant was ``Maybe it is our fault that we are not right?`` (the ``right`` bacame ``white`` for the same reason that Elmer Fudd talks about the ``wascally wabbit``. Veeres now realizes (having been educated by fine chowk teachers like you and anNy) that he has been wrong all this time when he wrote mean things about Pakistan, and now walks the streets of Delhi, repeating this sad phrase over and over again to himself. Sometimes jay joins him too.
#108 Posted by DRUMZ on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
Scout: ``Why should you, a law abiding, patriotic American feel less American for the crimes that some fundamentalist nuts committed in Karachi?``
Patriots support something solely because it happens in their country. This requires zero thinking which is why so many of these chowk fools are patriots.
India and pakistan and bangladesh... It makes me wanna kidnap their children.
Patriots support something solely because it happens in their country. This requires zero thinking which is why so many of these chowk fools are patriots.
India and pakistan and bangladesh... It makes me wanna kidnap their children.
#107 Posted by arjun_m on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
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#106 Posted by roohi on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
Now that the gloves are off lets see how the Pak Army shuts down the jihadis - as the indian law and order agencies know it is NOT a easy job. Lucky for them they don`t have to face new waves pushed over the border by the jihad machine like India did. Big Brother has already given us their vision of the right way to deal with that type of scum (just bomb anything that may or may not be a terrorist or be harboring a terrorist or was a terrorist in a previous life and never mind the ``collateral damage``) - lets see what the mentors do to their precious protégées and vice versa. I think the Indian Army and Police are going to come out looking nice to these guys after Mushy and the Bushman are done with them.
#105 Posted by pmishra2 on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
scout #93
[begin quote]
Another thing that bothers me about this article is the apologetic tone, as if you or other Pakistani Americans are responsible for this awful crime. Why should you, a law abiding, patriotic American feel less American for the crimes that some fundamentalist nuts committed in Karachi?
[end quote]
because the Pakistani goverment and its components provided assistance and direction to the people behind the killing of Pearl. All of the hijackers of the Indian airlines flight and the three terrorist freed from jail were given complete freedom in Pakistan. One of them, a psychopath named Azhar even became a ``leader`` in the cause of ``Kashmir``.
It is a good sign that at least some Pakistanis feel some shame about this, otherwise I would have to conclude that the whole culture has gone psycho.
Of course, I am just a caste-ridden Indian, why should you be impressed by my opinions?
Fortunately, the whole world now understands the irrational hatred and open support for murder that undergirds state policy in Pakistan. Read about it in the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/25/international/asia/25PEAR.html
[begin quote]
Another thing that bothers me about this article is the apologetic tone, as if you or other Pakistani Americans are responsible for this awful crime. Why should you, a law abiding, patriotic American feel less American for the crimes that some fundamentalist nuts committed in Karachi?
[end quote]
because the Pakistani goverment and its components provided assistance and direction to the people behind the killing of Pearl. All of the hijackers of the Indian airlines flight and the three terrorist freed from jail were given complete freedom in Pakistan. One of them, a psychopath named Azhar even became a ``leader`` in the cause of ``Kashmir``.
It is a good sign that at least some Pakistanis feel some shame about this, otherwise I would have to conclude that the whole culture has gone psycho.
Of course, I am just a caste-ridden Indian, why should you be impressed by my opinions?
Fortunately, the whole world now understands the irrational hatred and open support for murder that undergirds state policy in Pakistan. Read about it in the NYTimes:
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/25/international/asia/25PEAR.html
#104 Posted by nameless on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
Can it get any more gruesome? It appears that the video tapes (according to Pakistani newspapers) of the killing will soon apear on the market (if they have not as yet) to be sold alongside the tapes of Laden , Azhar & co. God, god have mercy on these unbelievers.
And now for some more on the matters check out the following at
http://www.msnbc.com/news/714890.asp#BODY
``“My father is a Jew, my mother is a Jew, and I am a Jew.” In the last moments of Danny Pearl’s life, his kidnappers forced him again and again to denounce his family, his country and his religion, and to warn the world that he would not be the last to suffer if the United States did not change its ways. A video camera trained on his unshaven, sleepless face, Pearl mumbled the terrorists’ script. “Americans can’t walk around free as long as our government’s policies continue,” he said. “America will bear the consequences of our government’s unconditional support for Israel.” Photographs of weeping Arab women, the supposed victims of American and Israeli aggression against Palestinians, periodically flashed on a screen as he spoke.``
And now for some more on the matters check out the following at
http://www.msnbc.com/news/714890.asp#BODY
``“My father is a Jew, my mother is a Jew, and I am a Jew.” In the last moments of Danny Pearl’s life, his kidnappers forced him again and again to denounce his family, his country and his religion, and to warn the world that he would not be the last to suffer if the United States did not change its ways. A video camera trained on his unshaven, sleepless face, Pearl mumbled the terrorists’ script. “Americans can’t walk around free as long as our government’s policies continue,” he said. “America will bear the consequences of our government’s unconditional support for Israel.” Photographs of weeping Arab women, the supposed victims of American and Israeli aggression against Palestinians, periodically flashed on a screen as he spoke.``
#103 Posted by veeresh on February 25, 2002 11:51:09 am
Dear Scout . . . here are some more profound words without smoking anything at all other than the polluted air of Delhi: ``Maybe it is our fault that we are not white - except at desi weddings where people dance as though they are trying to screw & unscrew lightbulbs with both hands at the same time or maybe they are doing laundry after washing in baaltee.``
By the way, now in India we have new improved baaltees which is like series of baaltees of reducing size all pouring from biggest to smallest as they fill in which you can (really) fit some sort of fundoo electronic thing next to the smallest one so that when the smallest one eventually fills up the tap is shut off by itself. which switches the tap off. See, the first biggest one overflows into the next biggest one, which then overflows etcetc.
Thus. Our baaltees are, once again, better than yours.
This is true, Scout. Be prepared!! Remember Baden-Powell and the Oath? Don`t mess your baaltees with ours.
Or do white people not use baaltees?
I wonder . . .
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