Lessons From the Pearl Murder

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Ref anNy #: 306

[harimau!

oh dear :( my apologies if i made a boo boo]

Not at all. I was just pulling your leg a bit... no, not the part about snakes being gods. The cobra is worshipped as a god and of course that gives rise to fanciful legends and even more fanciful Bollywood movies such as Nagin.

But I felt that I will make YLH`s day (probably, century, why just a day?) if I came ho his aid once. He will now come to my aid when I am in dire need of it and am under attack by the Headshrinker or The Tamil Rapist.

PS. Well, that part about all snakes being gods is not quite true; just King Cobras. Your ordinary rattler, sidewinder, watersnake or black mamba don`t qualify for membership in the Pantheon.

harimau!

oh dear :( my apologies if i made a boo boo

tahmedsaab

you rool :)

Maybe you should go to Kashmir and visit the shrine of `Amir Kabir Ali Wali Hamdani` to find out more about the Hamdani family... oh I forgot you Indians burnt it down.

Ref anNy #: 264

[how much sense can a persons opinion make when he repeatedly calls anothers god a snake...]

anNy! (I am trying to say that with as much severity as I can muster on an impersonal medium like the Internet.)

Hindus do worship snakes. Thus all snakes are gods but all gods are not snakes.

Thanks for the info YLH.

Can you also tell me, when the great Hamdani dynasty moved to Pakistan .. and did they have any problems settling with the uncouth Paki natives.

Thanks!

For Tahmed:

Discussion on Lineages:

1) I didn`t bring it up. I find the discussion of my lineage an unnecessary discussion. It was brought up in connection to the discussion of lineages of the South Asian Muslims a few months ago. Here as you can see, it was your Buddy Rsaxena.

2) I always said that I don`t care one way or the other. But you keep lecturing me on how it doesn`t matter in Islam. Why do you keep lecturing me eventhough I have said it myself even before you decided to deliver your self righteous babble?

3) I find it rather odd that you can view with skepticism one claim (though an unnecessary and useless discussion) while believing that Quran revealed 14 centuries ago hasn`t been changed even 0.01%. If there were authorities that could verify the Quran`s authenticity , there were also authorities that verified lineages. How else can we trace Muhammad`s Lineage right upto Ismail? Or do you not believe in that? Then surely you shouldn`t believe in a Book either.

So you see none of your logic makes sense, and makes me conclude that you are an obsessed senile old man with nothing better to do but to bother me.

More on the Iranian question: A reading of Islamic History will show that the persecution of the `Alids` by Ummayad Dynasty drove them to Persia especially the area around Iran.

Ofcourse people like Rsaxena never read History.

Now to the second part of your argument.

Let me restate My original Premise ONCE MORE. Like I HAVE SAID BEFORE ... I AM NOT SPECIAL BECAUSE MY MOTHER IS THE DIRECT DESCENDANT OF THE HOLY PROPHET.

NOW COMING TO YOUR OBJECTION TO MY BELIEVING AS SUCH. I know it for a fact, because there is a famous book called `Salar-e-ajam` published by Ferozesons, in conjunction with the famous Shah e Hamadan conference in Azad Kashmir.

The Book published by independent authorities has the `family trees` in the End. If you open to the page on `Jalalpur Syeda Hamdania` you will find my mother`s name `Dr.Durr-e-Shahwar Hamdani`at the bottom. Given that the entire Alid Family had hidden in Iran lends more credence to the claim of the Hamdani syeds which is proven by that Book.

The fact is that I don`t care one way or the other, but I am sure as hell not going to lie just to please you. So think what you want to.

SO ONCE AGAIN: I DON`T CARE IF MY ANCESTOR WAS MUHAMMAD, ZEUS, OR SOME UNKNOWN INDIAN PEASANT. I AM YASSER LATIF HAMDANI, A PAKISTANI AND A HUMAN BEING!

Tahmed,

When and where did Aisha say that? How can you infer that. When where did she say I was better than you because I was the descendant of Muhammad.

So the fact is that you are accusing her unnecessarily because I think you are possibly a senile old man.

The fact is that you babble needlessly and self righteously, a psychological need I am sorry I don`t understand.

1) I never claimed I was special. Infact I made it very clear that I was not! You infact copied right out of my post when you said `that the son of a non muslim sweeper is equal in the eyes of God to the first born of Muhammad`.

2) People in the subcontinent have had a great affiliation to the Syeds, something which I find distasteful and an indication of the cultural lag which the Muslim World finds itself in.

So please keep your self righteous babble to yourself.

Thankyou.

ylh #294 Whether or not it matters to you is a separate question. You do consider it a fact (as you restate in your latest post) that your mother is a descendent of the prophet. I am saying that more likely someone along the way (say in the 14th century or 12th century or 18th century or whenever) decided that it would be cool to claim such descent. I dont think I am picking on you when I raise this point, I am just challenging you to be objective and look at the numbers of Syeds and Hashmis and others roaming around the muslim world and tell me why 99% of them have to be fakes.

And even if 1% of them are genuine inheritors of the prophets genes, so what??

I am sorry to seem like I am picking on you.

Sarwari: I am sure ylh is better than me in many ways. But please dont tell me that one of these ways is that he is a descendant of muhammed and I am not. Even a non-muslim sweeper in the worst slums of Bombay is equal before the eyes of God to the first born of muhammed. If this sounds strange to you, go back and re-read the Quran.

YLH .. why are you denying me my identity as Ali2. Have I ever denied Pakistans identity? ..Is there no justice in this world?

ME thinks you and your silly mutual admirer should get married and spare us your bs.

tahmed321

Mind explaining where YLH is claiming that he is `special` because of his lineage to the Holy Prophet. One must ponder why all of you gang up on him. It is quite apparent that he is better than you.

Aisha

tahmed,

Go back and read my post. And then tell me did I deserve this self righteous babble from you? Is it that you give lectures because you love to pick on me!

tahmed:

You have to be kidding me... You have to be. Did you or did you not read the Post. Which part of ..

`Ofcourse, I still don`t understand the relevance, especially since I had mentioned this little fact in relation to the debate on heritages, and how evil we Pakistanis are for claiming to be of foreign descent, especially since most Pakistanis have domestic Rajput and Jat surnames.`

and

``The debate on lineages is stupid ... but by the same token it is a fact that Middle Eastern especially classical Islamic scholarship was obsessed family Lineages to trace the accuracy of the transmission of Islamic Law. So if I have said something like that, it is because its a fact and not because I am unnecessarily proud of my relation to a man who claimed to receive divine revelation rightly or wrongly.``

...DID YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? DID I REALLY DESERVE THAT FRIGGIN LECTURE FROM YOU ... I WANT AN APOLOGY IMMEDIATELY!

For god`s sake tahmed... I have already said what you are saying. I am not the one who brought it up... and no, It is a fact that my mother is descendant from the Prophet.. does it matter to me? NO! Do I care? NO! Then please give you self righteous blabbering a little rest.

ylh #289 ``my mother is a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad and her family tree has been authenticated by a few dozen authorities in this regard.`` I never thought I would run into someone who actually takes this bs seriously. EVEN if you were the direct descendant of the prophet (along with a zillion other Syeds roaming around every corner of the muslim world), so bloody what? This kind of thinking is the very antithesis of Islam. And what about your other hundreds of ancestors overs the past 1400 years who have nothing to do with Muhammed? Are they not good enough to have THEIR names used? The fact, my friend is, that you are displaying the same shallow arrogance that zillions of other primitive people in the subcontinent and elsewhere in the muslim world who think they are Syeds or Hashmis or whatnot as well those who worship them accordingly. Next time you have this urge to demonstrate your lineage, remember this: A son of a sudra who converts to Islam is equal before the eyes of God to the son of Muhammed.

Rsaxena,

Jahil ki aulaad, if you don`t know about something why don`t you stop make stupid comments?

The irrelevance of this discussion just amuses me. My mother is the descendant of Shah-e-Hamdan, Ali Kabir Hamdani, who was the son of the Governor of Hamadan in the 14 th century. He is also the 20th descendant in line from the Holy Prophet. This individual is the same whose shrine your Terrorist Army destroyed in KASHMIR a few years ago.

ylh descended from the Prophet! Man, you will never hear the end of ribbing on this topic on Chowk!!!

Re: YLH

{ suppose it would be very complicated for your simplistic Indian Mind to understand, but what my father is or my mother is or grand father or Grandmother were doesn`t change who I am. But then that is incomprehensible to you.

}

I undestand what you are trying to say.Historians have traced my lineage back to the Brontosaurus .. but that doesnt make me a Brontosaurus ..haha

But I still dont understand one thing. If your mother is Iranian and she is directly related to the Prophet(PBUH) , does that make the Prophet(PBUH) Iranian?

Tahmed,

Glad to know that you are the son of Zeus. Did you bother to read the whole post? I don`t get the fascination of the people with Descents... I think it is all a big joke, especially when it comes to direct and indirect descents, which is total crap especially to a `Matrilinealist` like myself. My surname `Hamdani` is not from my father`s side, but my mother`s side and I didn`t choose it because it is a fancy sounding Iranian Syed name.

But jokes aside, my mother is a direct descendant of the Prophet Muhammad and her family tree has been authenticated by a few dozen authorities in this regard. Ofcourse, I still don`t understand the relevance, especially since I had mentioned this little fact in relation to the debate on heritages, and how evil we Pakistanis are for claiming to be of foreign descent, especially since most Pakistanis have domestic Rajput and Jat surnames.

Ali2,

I suppose it would be very complicated for your simplistic Indian Mind to understand, but what my father is or my mother is or grand father or Grandmother were doesn`t change who I am. But then that is incomprehensible to you.

Surely the Medina Born Mullah Azad, one of the founding fathers of your nation, was an Arab too?

YLH #286 My shajrah i nasab goes back even further than you, and is based on no less an authority than God Himself Who assures me that I can claim descent from the First Couple, Adam and Eve.

PS I hope for your sake that you were joking when you explained your direct descent from the mother`s side.

{Yes you are right from my mother`s side, I have a direct shajra Nasb from the Prophet Muhammad.}

WOW .. Thats great. When I go home , I can tell my folks that I chatted to the grandon of the great Prophet.

So dosent that make you an Arab , YLH? And here I waS thinking you are a Pakistani...

Ali2

Yes you are right from my mother`s side, I have a direct shajra Nasb from the Prophet Muhammad. I suspect that you are Rsaxena, because no one can come up with a more nonsensical and irrelevant post.

Dear Prem,

The fact is that when I proposed such a book, I didn`t have myself in mind as the writer. I enjoy reading these books in my study, but I hardly wish to be a historian. Whereas I try to remain objective, Pakistan comes first and I am guilty as charged.

There are many objective and wonderful writers in Pakistan, like Ayesha Jalal and my former teacher Rubina Saigol and others who are wonderfully objective and non-Partisan. Mr. Aziz is one such example.

Dost Mittar,

There is no shame for me in admitting what you are saying. My posts on Gandhi and Nehru for example have been simply been `a taste of your own medicine` for the Indians for the same logic that Indians use to insult Jinnah. Same goes for Pakistan and India, and Pakistanis and Indians.

With you and Shammi, I have time and again shared my own views. But when one is an proponent or advocate of a particular view, one can hardly afford to argue the opponent`s brief. So whereas I maintain I have not lied, I might not have given the whole truth about say what I think of Gandhi and Nehru or of India.

If everyone was objective and non partisan... I would be happy to be more objective and non partisan in my estimate of Pakistan and India.

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

re: ylh # 273

``At Yale I proposed the setting up of a Joint Indo-Pakistan text book which would only deal with the facts and leave out emotionalism which is so prevalent in the History books of Pakistan and India.``

A most excellent idea. Perhaps Isa Daudpatta will revive his dream as well, and some objective historical project can be undertaken. Anybody knows what the progress is on that front?

ylh, at the risk of sounding insufferably preachy, may I share a thought? If you notice, there will be considerable enthusiasm even among Indians for the kind of historical project you have in mind, but unfortunately you will also find that most Indians will balk at working with you on any such project! It is not because they are intrinsically bad people (though we may be :)), or because they don`t like you, but because rightly or wrongly an impression has gotten around that Pakistan is more important to you than truth. I am sure that kind of impression is quite undeserved; but you will acknowledge that India-Pakistan (or any country) need ``committed`` historians (committed to anything other than the truth) like they need bubonic plague (which, by the grace of Lord Almighty, we already have in India).

Just a suggestion from someone who shares not 99.9% but a 100% of your vision for Pakistan.

YLH .. can you please tell us that story about how you are related to Prophet Mohammed(PBUH) on your mothers side ..or was it your fathers side..

Cheers!

yasser,

its anNy love, not aNny..the second N is big

Anna,

Rest assure, you won`t hear any gasps from me. Only a few weeks ago, aNny and I were completely agreeing with each other. Infact she was backing me up on every single occasion. Then suddenly one day, aNny started attacking me calling me the devil. Not that I care, but it is sad to see a fellow passionate Pakistani with 99.99% similar views as me attacking me needlessly.

In any event, I agree with you and I am glad that there is still some sanity left.

Sincerely

YLH

Yasser..Actually I am aware of what is being put out as propaganda, crap, whatever, on both sides. I apologize. It was not my intention to single you out..but since you had made that remark, my comments were made to you..but I had included others. I stand corrected..I also did not mean to get in the middle of what you call this `feud` with Anny. Maybe one day both of you will realize that you`re really trying to say the same thing..just using drastically different methods of saying it. (I can picture both of you gasping this very moment!!)

As for vociferously voicing your right to be just as abusive as those who throw mud in your face..yes, you`re perfectly right in that as well. Enough said. If an annoying number of people want to throw courtesy, a modicum of respect, and diplomacy...along with logic and common sense out the window and into the gutter..then by all means. I`m just here to read, learn, question, and do this all with my own brand of humor. It`s just very difficult sometimes to ignore the rest of you..but it can be done. Well then, cheerio!

anNY...regarding your post on misinformation, I understand what you`re saying. I didn`t stay in Pakistan beyond the secondary school level (a very very long time ago), but even then it was clear that we were being taught a very distorted view of history.

I know it`s difficult, and what your teacher is doing is brave, and yes subversive to those who can`t see beyond the tip of their noses (rather crosseyed view, don`t you think), but I hope she succeeds (in more ways than one) in what she`s doing. I don`t mean to sound like I`m this aunty who`s giving advice, `cause I think you`re already on the right path, but keep questioning, and keep searching. It is a strange, twisted world out there..and we`ve got to do what we can not to get caught up in the knots these twisted people/governments weave :)

And while we are on the topic, perhaps aNny will mind explaining where and how I have revelled in India`s miseries? I don`t think I have shown any glee on the savagery going on in Gujurat... not even 5% of what Indians exhibited at the murder of Danny Pearl, and Pakistan`s branding as fundamentalist state in the aftermath of the 9/11.

I admire the spirit that aNny is operating with, but her attacks are misguided. I am the last person she should be attacking.. but I guess when you are blinded by hate.. for imaginery issues.. you are blind.

I believe my Post 275 is a reasonable one.

Appeal to All Chowkwallahs,

Before you pen your emotional verbiages and goody goody nonsense, please do take care that you don`t scandalize anyone unnecessarily. Whatever political views I have aired, I have never, never ever insulted someone`s religion or God or suggested that my God was better than any other God. Thats not my style... I could care less what God one prays too. That is inconsequential to me.

Even my staunchest opponents like Rsaxena will agree to what I am saying if they are truthful. It is rather sad that people like aNny love to paint everyone with the same brush. Whatever opinions say Ali1, Urstruly and others might have aired, might sound as radical as my views, but my views are in a totally different category.

So I appeal to all chowkwallahs, that in the future accuse me of only what I have done. I have called India a `hindu theocracy`! I have cursed South Asia`s Mother ... these are things you can take issue with. But to accuse me of insulting Hinduism or entire Hindudom is just sad. Whatever Hindudom`s faults as a religion and culture, it goes a long way in shaping our Unique Pakistani culture just as Islam or central asian influences does. Infact, I would choose a Pakistani Hindu over an Indian Muslim any day of the week.

So if you wish to ascribe `bias` and `prejudice` to me ... ascribe the right one. Call me a Pakistani nationalist... call me an `Ultra Nationalist`(though I am not) if you want... call me a Nationalist Bigot if you want for all of these things I can be confused of. But DON`T accuse me of `RELIGIOUS` bigotry. I don`t have any. I sometimes doubt I even have a religion. I respect all religions equally and disrespect them equally as well.

aNny,

``how much sense can a persons opinion make when he repeatedly calls anothers god a snake``

Kindly show me one single place where I have done that? It is rather sad that you accuse me of things I haven`t done. If not, I think you owe me an apology for trying to deliberately misrepresent me. Those who have read my posts know that I could hardly be bothered with Gods and religions.

Akash,

Please don`t try to capitalize on a `family` feud between us. I have reserved my comments on your posts which are filled with awe for people like Harimau who are masters at distorting facts and putting up lies.

Anny,

Can you share more about the class. I believe the reading of objective History in our country has been given a tough blow by `Nazaria-e-Pakistan` so to speak.

Anna,

I agree with you that we are not beyond such flaws, and may even be guilty more so. But For god`s sake, have you not read these Indians comment repeatedly on our revisionism? Most of my work has been directed against Pakistani authors who in the name of `Nazaria-e-Pakistan` have distorted History to please their Military masters especially Zia.

At Yale I proposed the setting up of a Joint Indo-Pakistan text book which would only deal with the facts and leave out emotionalism which is so prevalent in the History books of Pakistan and India.

As for Insults, I think it is rather sad to single me out as you people often do. I am not the first one to start spouting Insults at anyone ... I have been the target of constant abuse by the Indians in the past, and I`ll be damned if I not retaliate. I never could turn the other cheek and I ain`t starting now.

re: fawad

{so rsax are you up for some bar hopping or what the offer still stands and for you too askah ?}

...sure...i`m caught up with some work stuff right now, but let`s shoot for next month...

{where do u know about sandanavian chicks?}

...umm, i travel to europe now and then...

{i have a story.......i was on the train studying for a medicinal chemistry exam i had a while ago. I was goin through my drug cards and this spanish chick plopped next to me and asked me which train it was that was going to nb i told her. Next she goes what are you studying blah blah and then finnally goes , so ur columbian right ...im like no.....puerto rican ......no..... dominican......no finally what r u ????/ im pakistani......}

...hmmm...too bad...learn some spanish and play along next time...it worked for me in spain last summer, until it came time to construct complex sentences in spanish...hahaah...

ana,

hi

about misinformation. every morning we have a class that little by little is breaking my heart..i`m studying murder of history by k.k aziz and the amount of bull we`ve been fed all through school and college is so monstrous, its not even funny...almost everyhing have read on the history n creation of pakistan, present day india, bangladesh etc has been distorted beyond belief..any surprise then that theres so much hate? ppl start screaming and shouting in class..the teacher we have is risking a lot (her life actually since we have like a few billion jamatis and other political idiots in class) by talking about things most of us consider sacred..nationally as well as in the religious vein...we`re studying jainism, budhism, islam, hinduism right from the start and in extensive detail from a whole bunch of books (might be normal for most but these things dont happen where i am) which is making a lot of us very uncomfortable, as well as partition from lots of perspectives and different texts...its a strange twisted world ana

Akash # 269

If anNy`s postings are any indication, she also appears to be quite capable of clawing out people`s eyes, should they get too chummy.

ylh,

Yasser, you too watch out. You may be inviting the kind of wrath you don`t want to handle.

anNy

``how much sense can a persons opinion make when he repeatedly calls anothers god a snake or revels in the misfortunes of another country? for yourself to be taken seriously, you need to have some credibility and if you want ppl to read all these lengthy posts you write, you need to show that you respect them, their religion and their culture..and in the case of our annoying neighbours, not only when uve struck up a new friendship with some indian interactor but at all times.``

Did I say that I envy you anNy. As Kabir said, ``Dhai aakhar prem ke, padhe so pandit hoi``, or the one who has understood the meaning of love is the real wise man. A person might argue with brain, but the acceptance comes through heart. No amount of dry logical reasoning has an effect on the human beings as profound as two sentences of sincere sympathy and love. And you know this at a pretty young age(heck even I am young, but not as smart as you), you are a ``wise one``. You are a real sweetnumz, dear :-)

anNy and ylh

ylh to anNy:

``In any event, a comparison between your posts and mine will clearly show who is putting up embarrassing `Hysterics` and who is speaking rationally.

``

Shall we say it is only too obvious, anNy :-)

....Insults, rhetorical questions, accusations all are a part of this debate. I believe many Indians and Pakistanis have come to appreciate each others` points of view, even if they don`t want to admit it. For example on my part, I have no personal `dard` for the people who were part of the communal exodus from say dehli to Lahore or Karachi... why? Because my family has been a native of Pakistan for several hundred years. But I believe historical facts should be presented and that is the reason I have entered the debate on the communal massacres and Here is the reason why... I have repeatedly proved on this site from records of journals like the Times (London) that a great majority of the massacres happened in East Punjab...

If the majority of Chowkwallahs believe as you do, Yasser (and I sincerely hope they don`t) that insults and accusations are part of this debate, then that paints a very bad picture of us as a people.

I don`t think anny (forgive me for speaking for you, anny)or anyone here is suggesting that we be conformist. And you can present all the historical facts you want to prove a point..but go beyond those facts as well. Indians are not the only ones responsible in the world for disinformation. I think it`s safe to say that our own nationalist mouthpieces have provided us with disinformation as well. It`s what we choose to do, once we`ve interpreted/misinterpreted this information/disinformation that`s important. And unfortunately some of us choose to come here and hurl insults, feeling that it`s a part of a healthy debate.

Or am I being totally idealistic and naive to think that we all come here for healthy debates, even though we`re poles apart on what we think?

On your part, you have no `personal dard` for those who were a part of the exodus, because your family was in Pakistan for several hundred years...fine! You are entitled to your opinion, I suppose. My family has been in what is now Pakistan for a couple of a hundred years too, but I do have `dard` for those who made the exodus not just from Delhi, or wherever, but from Lahore too. Okay...so? There`s no need for you to explain why you`ve entered this debate regarding the communal massacres..or to conform to what I, fast approaching to be a `buzurg` think. It`s just the means by which you enter this debate that has been put in question. And this question is not just put regarding you, but all you ma-behen ki gaaliyan aur doosre gaaliyan nikalne wales lurking about on this chowk.

You`re still very young, that`s not your fault, nor is it an excuse. Hopefully you`ll learn that while one may progress in terms of age, education, or work, that that`s not all what moving forward as a human being is all about. And that disrespecting a people, or a religion, or anyone can get to be incredibly comfortable, but it stunts one`s growth, so that even if one is seven foot tall, one will always be small. :)

Dear Anny,

Like I have said before and I will repeat again You don`t even know me, you have never met me and you are not psychic to know me over the internet where no emotions are apparent in the words that are written , so I really think you should give your screaming a rest! You can start as many campaigns as possible, against something which may or maynot happen in the future, see if I care. This is bila wajja ki `childish immaturity` that you are displaying. I don`t know how old you are but what you are doing on this board is inexcusable. In any event, a comparison between your posts and mine will clearly show who is putting up embarrassing `Hysterics` and who is speaking rationally.

I can safely say that the little I have done for Pakistan as the `Pakistan`s Ambassador` has been more than many `south asianists` on these boards.

I believe my words, my letters, my articles in various publications all over the US, both Colleges and otherwise, have gone a long way in showing people that Pakistanis are not all crazed fanatics, but rational and peace loving individuals who want nothing but a peaceful coexistence with the rest of the World and want to present their civilization and their culture as a positive contribution to the collective Humanity.

Sincerely

A Proud Pakistani..

and oh yes `Pakistan Zindabad`!



Dear Sadna

I had the pleasure of meeting you and your kind brother a few months ago. Please feel free to give your view of whether I `disrespect` and `degrade` your culture and your people?



I believe I have incurred the wrath of the `South Asianists` .. suddenly by protesting the idea of `South Asian Borgism` I am supposed to be `disrespecting India and Hindu Culture`. I didn`t know `South Asia`, `India` or `Hindudom` were interchangeable terms.

Let me make it very clear, I protest completely and totally any insinuation of ONE south Asia. The time for such suggestions has passed long ago 56 years ago to be precise and it was not rejected by the protagonists of Pakistan. There might still be an `All Asian Union` of sorts in a couple of centuries. But for that to happen, all nations in all of Asia have to undergo rapid National development much quicker than the 4 centuries in Europe`s Modern History. Only then can we have a United Asia ,but we will never have a United South Asia outside for thats like saying Iberian Peninsula forming a Union within the European Union.



So lets not waste our time in dreams and shadows and work towards what is really attainable.

re afaruqui 251

Etc, etc, etc. Oh, the bleatings and tears shed at the thought of Saddam getting his due punishment. Listen, Arab regimes understand only one language, and that is the language that comes out of the belly of a B-1. As for the lukewarm folks like Jordan and (ungrateful) Saudis, they`ll fall in line the minute US success becomes apparent. We have all seen this. Tyrants posture and protest only when they find America weak and hesitant. BUt this time it isn`t Bill Clinton in charge; there is a new leader of the free world who doesn`t hesitate to punish the bad guys.

Yasser:

``Anny, I have another idea. Why don`t we all just get along on chowk and agree with each other and become conformist? right? I wonder why people like anny forget that we are only `writing` and `arguing` and NOT going out and killing.``

yasser, next time you address a post to me, talk to me, dont ``people like anny`` okay?

``insults, rhetorical questions, accusations all are a part of this debate. I believe many Indians and Pakistanis have come to appreciate each others` points of view, even if they don`t want to admit it. ``

i think this is where we differ..(and pls excuse me if i sound overly self righteous and goodiegoodie starting now but im about to make a point thats just like that in nature)..you dont insult and accuse yasser...debate or no debate..if you have all the facts in the world and i understand your point of view, i will still refuse to believe you or change my opinion if you call me, my people or my religion things..ill prolly punch u or something instead...if someone who does not have the decency to speak with some tameez and a certain amount of civilty, that persons point of view is not worth paying much attention to...how much sense can a persons opinion make when he repeatedly calls anothers god a snake or revels in the misfortunes of another country? for yourself to be taken seriously, you need to have some credibility and if you want ppl to read all these lengthy posts you write, you need to show that you respect them, their religion and their culture..and in the case of our annoying neighbours, not only when uve struck up a new friendship with some indian interactor but at all times..so if u want to continue with your hysterics here, go right ahead dear ylh..but dont be saying that youre a proud pakistani (sheesh) and typing out naaraz like pakistan zindabad...you make us all look like idiots...and that just pisses me off really bad...we`re pakistan`s ambassadors man..(corny sounding but true)...ppl are convinced that we`re these monsters with fire in our eyes and bhoosa in our brains..we NEED to be on our best behaviour yasser, think good of ppl, not swear at them:), be kind- try and be as good human beings as we can....thats the only way we can do good to pakistan right now...an example right now would be dostmittar..u see the man ever get down on all fours like most of us here and say nasty mean spirited things? its difficult and prettyy damn annoying i hear, being reasonable and good all the time, but in the end it is worth it...if theres one thing that has me convinced all hindus arent nasty lil buggers, its this man..you see how tehzeeb and saleeqa make a difference?

as for you running for PM or something else, i swear i will start a one woman campaign to not vote for you if you stand up in the next 140 years and are like u are now.. end of lecture..i apologize for any rudeness and hurt feelings but someones gotta be bad to you..who else but aunty anNy..try and take this in the right spirit.. the idea is not to put you down, honest..just to get through to you that naraaz, jazbaat, budtameezi, violence and big egos will get us only so far..and right now we appear to be very stuck after getting that far, no?

take care

Aamir #255:

I apologise for the multiple posts. There was some problem with the net, I did not get the `your message has been successfully posted` message the first couple of times, and was particular that my pearls of wisdom should not be missed :-)

The US Weighs Its Policy Options Toward Iraq

Ahmad Faruqui

There are reports that US Special Operations Forces have been injected into Northern Iraq, as prelude to a bigger operation. The Pentagon has denied these reports, but cynics may be forgiven for taking the Pentagon at its word. Only this week Secretary Rumsfeld scuttled the launch of an “Office of Strategic Influence,” as it became clear to him that the US public would not stomach the creation of such an Orwellian agency.

In his State of the Union speech, President Bush branded Iraq as being a member of an “Axis of Evil,” paving the way for military action. Ever since the terrorist attacks of 9-11, the hawks in Washington have been arguing that it is time to attend to the unfinished business in Iraq. Influential academic Eliot Cohen asserted that ``the enemy is far weaker, and we know him far better than in 1991.`` Since the US has made numerous technological advances in its military systems, and successfully demonstrated its resolve to carry out unorthodox warfare against the Taliban using these systems, Cohen argued that the risks of attacking Iraq and destroying Saddam’s regime are miniscule in comparison to the benefits that would flow from the elimination of his weapons of mass destruction. But is warfare simply about winning and losing battles?

No one doubts that the US can successfully defeat Iraq in battle, or that it lacks the resolve to do so. But is the US prepared to act unilaterally, as Cohen argues, using the 9-11 rule: if you are not with us, you are with them. Such binomial logic will be difficult to sustain for very long, since it would convey to the world that the US has given itself a blank check to invoke Pax Americana any time and anywhere.

The US cannot fight Iraq without a coalition of forces drawn from the neighboring countries. Can it assemble such a coalition? Even King Abdullah of Jordan, probably America’s closest Arab ally, has cautioned the US against attacking any nation in the Middle East. Words of caution have been coming from Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Malaysia. Some of the leading intellectuals in the Muslim world point out that the US will not stop with Iraq, and will take the war to several other Muslim countries. They argue that not all terrorists are Muslims, but the US only plans to attack Muslim countries, even as it states that its war on global terrorism is not a war on Islam.

The recent Gallup survey of 10,000 ordinary people in nine Muslim countries indicates that 77% felt that US military action in Afghanistan was unjustified, even an absolute majority condemned the 9-11 attacks. The US was seen as “ruthless, aggressive, conceited, arrogant, easily provoked and biased” in its foreign policy. The US has failed to win the hearts and minds of the Muslim world, even though it may have prevailed in battle against the Taliban and al-Qaida forces.

Early indications are that a US attack of Iraq is unlikely to find much support in Europe, Russia or China. Many countries supported the US in its attack on Afghanistan because they saw it as a victim on 9-11. However, only one other country, Britain, joined the US in the military attack.

Several countries joined the US in prosecuting the Gulf War, because they saw Iraq as an aggressor who had invaded and occupied Kuwait. Most people around the world are unlikely to see the US rationale for taking on Saddam now. Unilateral US action will impair US national interest, by creating diplomatic friction with its European, Asian and Arab allies. It may cause serious harm to American security interests, if much of the Muslim and Arab world ends up seeing the US attack as evidence of its un-evenhandedness in dealing with the Middle East. It is likely to play into the hands of extremist elements in these countries, and will cause many friendly governments to lose face. Pakistan’s President Musharraf, who has been providing the US with “unstinted cooperation” in its war on terrorism, has openly expressed his opposition to expanding the war beyond Afghanistan.

It would be far better for the US to work through the UN in resolving the threats posed by Saddam. The UN was created to resolve disputes between nations, and if the US continues to bypass it whenever it does not serve its purposes, its set a bad precedent for other countries. Just as it follows democratic governance principles within its own polity, and just as it continues to press for democratic processes in other countries, so it should abide by the weight of world opinion, as reflected in the votes of the UN General Assembly.

Re Aamir

Not only is your grasp of the language pathetic, your twisted logic makes it harder. what is you trying to make point. it is very very not too easy for ordinary peeples to comprehendible and knowledge. I is not skolar of pidgin to understand the points you is the trying to make. wokay?

``Afik ,i dont think so but it was the name of the guy who first innunciated the cannon of western jurisprudence ,in England.Like you iam a science major with only CHOWK degree in other faculties/``

You think that magna carter [sic] was the name of some guy who ``innunciated`` the foundation of jurisprudence. You also believe in that this sharia jazz should be the ultimate system for all the world. You`re a fool twice over. Congratulations.

Re the science major part, which part do you specialize in...making explosives out of garden fertilizer or buying nuclear material for al-quaeda. I would guess the latter, given the story that just broke in the New York Times, that famous and stinking yahoodi newspaper.

Anny,

I have another idea. Why don`t we all just get along on chowk and agree with each other and become conformist? right? I wonder why people like anny forget that we are only `writing` and `arguing` and NOT going out and killing. Debate and arguments should be encouraged... anywhere. Isn`t that the purpose of this site?

Insults, rhetorical questions, accusations all are a part of this debate. I believe many Indians and Pakistanis have come to appreciate each others` points of view, even if they don`t want to admit it. For example on my part, I have no personal `dard` for the people who were part of the communal exodus from say dehli to Lahore or Karachi... why? Because my family has been a native of Pakistan for several hundred years. But I believe historical facts should be presented and that is the reason I have entered the debate on the communal massacres and Here is the reason why... I have repeatedly proved on this site from records of journals like the Times (London) that a great majority of the massacres happened in East Punjab. Now see the result of disinformation and the fact that Indians have been allowed to show a one sided inaccurate picture of Partition massacres:



This is the latest Appeal from the Hindu Nationalist Mouth Piece `hinduunity.org`:

Revenge is the only solution left. Retaliate at full force. Muslims are living in our country and killing our own people. This is a shame!

Remember during the 1947 partition trains filled with dead Hindus kept arriving to India? The only way it stopped was when we sent a train full of dead Muslims back to Pakistan. The Muslim immediately stopped killing. What does this tell you? Muslims will not understand until revenge is administered. Only then it will stop. To them killing of non-muslims is religious duty of Islam. This Islamic rogue must be stopped and stomped out of Bharat. Do what is needed!



If the true picture of the communal massacres comes out not only will it undo the hatred for Pakistan in India , but also provide India a chance to be truly secular thus protecting millions of Indians of the Muslim Faith.

Otherwise the situation will look like this:



http://asia.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/01/india.train/index.html

Torched alive

Several survivors in Ahmedabad told of gruesome circumstances in which they said they were attacked by large mobs with firebombs, then with sticks, swords, and knives, according to CNN`s Satinder Bindra.

One man said five members of his family were killed in the violence. The uprising began Wednesday when a large group, believed to be organized Muslims, fire-bombed a train carrying Hindu activists near Godhra, police said. The activists were returning from a demonstration in the central Indian town of Ayodhya, where they were demanding the Indian government build a Hindu temple on the ruins of a Muslim mosque destroyed by Hindus nearly a decade ago.

Authorities said the Hindu activists had gotten into an altercation with a group of Muslims earlier that day. In retaliation for the attack, Hindu rioters began torching Muslim homes and Muslim-owned shops throughout the state.

In one incident Thursday, police said 16 Muslims were torched alive in their home, among them a local legislator. Two rioters were then shot dead by police. Firefighters have been called in to deal with many of the situations but in many instances are blocked by mobs from reaching the flames.



In any event, Thank God for Pakistan.

Sincerely

Yasser Latif Hamdani

This is so terrible, horrible - all this burning and killing of innocent people (Hindus and Muslims). I want to express my sympathy to all Indians and to hope that the government takes firm action to prevent this from spiralling out of control. ``Right`` and ``Wrong`` or blame do not come into this. There has got to be a better way to express our differences without killing each other. We on Chowk who talk about secularism and extremism are a minority among our people. The majority of Indians and Pakistanis are not into the esoterics of tolerance, because they don`t seem to have been exposed to it. It makes me more and more convinced that we need GOOD schools and education at a grass-roots level. SOMETHING to counter this hate-filled propaganda that is destroying innocent people.

(P.S. This Friday`s prayers were for all the people killed, both Hindus and Muslims)

Hydra

Re: ``Ill stop it there because your other ranting is directed against someone THAT I AM NOT .I am not non secular i think islam doesnot like to force itself on everyone .``

No, you say that you are not non secular, but you play games by advocating shariat laws in the US, and then write, ``not that I am saying that``. This is called talking out of both sides of your mouth.

``On the other hand you are just vomiting what popular media vomit every second.You believe that men do everything for virgin hourie as popularised by media.That is the kind of muslim you are.You have nothing original in your thaught nor any filter.``

What is your definition of popular media, hydra? Do you think Noam Chomsky, A. Roy, E. Said, Robert Fisk are ``popular media``? They are clearly progressive media writers and critics who deconstruct mainstream media-therefore your ``filter`` notion is rubbish.

``As a muslim at least editorialize the garbage from most of the aliennculture writers And the rubbish popular media chacterisations.All those high sounding word do not apply to me.``

No, nothing applies to you, hydra, not propriety on websites, or one stable position or anything. You are above everything. We should all focus on the mainstream media and throw roses at the conspiracy garbage that comes out of fundo communities.

``You are nothing but Xerox copy of news media everyday.``

No Mr. Cut and Paste who wont read the articles he posts, you are.



Btw, in which country do you live?

Re AAmir

Religion when practiced in moderation is a good thing as it instills values, respect for others, etc. But when one takes it to the extreme in each and every case, as people like you do, it devolves into nonsense and eventually into chaos and sheer evil. The funny thing is that there aint no such thing as heaven and 72 virgins waiting etc. It`s just stuff to pull in suckers like you. Buzz off you brainwashed nutcase.

ana:

point taken..thanks for pointing out so nicely what was wrong with that rather rude reply to yasser...daldal sometimes suckks me in too and when its one of my own ppl being bigots or silly or stupid, it just suckks all the more..

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Aamir,

re:``Same thing can be said about the opponent of ``islamist`` (whatever u mean by that)



Actually, thats not true. The progressive media and its readers include a broad sprectrum of beliefs and faiths. We just don`t think any religious interpretation should be forced on any citizen, regardless. What does that mean? Everyone has a right to their beliefs and practices in a secular framework that ideally ensures and protects these rights.

Islamicist interpretations want Shariat laws for everybody, regardless, and tends to punish and marginalize those citizens who are not men and not Muslim. Can a Christian/Shia in Pakistan feel as safe as a Muslim in the US? I think not.

``If you can select & choose a designer Islam which by calling them Islamist you concede Islam is there FORTE.``

I don`t know what this sentence means.

``By self assuming ownership of rennaisence & all laws subsequent to Magna Carter , you bashfully do that of western world ....what is wrong for them to use those laws paticularly ....untill according to them there shariat law replaces all the modern laws ...Not that i subscribe to there philosophy or dream.``

So are you saying that all secular forms of govt. should be replaced by shariat law? And what is the basis for this notion?

``I think you are a bigger hypocrite of being Muslim where it counts & rejecting every thing Islam where it requires sacrifice ,extra work or majority opposition to islam as in non islamic west & nonmuslim environment you are.``

And I think you are completely out of line for deciding what Muslim identity is. THERE IS NO ONE MUSLIM IDENTITY. Your definition of Islam is not everyone`s-and you are not God to decide what is right and what is not and that only Muslims deserve your pity and sympathy. Your type cares only about Muslims-you don`t give a damn about anyone else who suffers equally-no, you must hold onto that Muslim persecution complex-because only oppressed Muslims in secular or non Muslim countries are special. What about the people in East Timor, hydra? Are they special? What about Christian Palestinians? Are they special? What about Afghani Jews? And btw, hydra, there are many people in this non Muslim enviroment that are working to protect Muslims in this country. How many Muslims are working to protect non Muslims in Muslim countries in the same way?

``Admit it you are just as much guilty of treading values two worlds & like them unwilling to cross ove completely.You to the west & they to there EasT.``

Admit that the tolerant, open minded, non judgemental, non violent Islam scares the hell out of you. This is your greatest weakness-you can`t and won`t imagine that its possible to live in peace and respect of people of all beliefs nad races. You`d have to give your persecution complex up. You`d have to admit that everyone`s religion has meaning and no one religion is better than the next. You`d have to admit that you made the traps and lies in your own mind on a false sense of superiority.



Btw, why are you living in the US and taking advantage of Western, secular systems? Why aren`t you living in a country that implements shariat law? Don`t talk the talk if you cant walk the walk.

Aamir #228:

``Enough is enough....You hindians never miss a chance to ridicule a Pakistani specially if it concerns Bharat.It is a fact that India name doesnt belong solely to what is now BHARAT.India is bangladesh Pakistan & Bharat ,Bhutan ,Napal so to say ..a region referred to as Indian region by Arabs ,Europeans even before British ,remember Columbus , set out looking for INDIA .Its a fact that Bangladesh in 30 yrs of existence ,Pakistan in 54 yrs of existence have international recognition but BHARAT draw a blank countenence if you mention it to someone in New York.No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.

``To call Bharat India is hegonomy of Bharat...``

My dear friend, you make two points:

1. India = `Bharat` + Pakistan + BD + ...

Which makes you a fellow Indian. Welcome to the fold, my friend.

2. To call `Bharat` India is hegemony - I dont understand how.

The truth is the reverse. It is Bharat that is equal to modern India + Pakistan + BD + .... Familiar with the term `Akhand Bharat` or `Undivided Bharat`? Bharat is the ancient name of this land and this makes you a fellow Bharatiya.

It is the Greeks (Alexander?) who called the Sindhu as Indus and referred to our land as India. Our land has always been Bharat. Today`s India has two names: India and Bharat. Our Constitution says `The Union of India, that is Bharat, ...`

It is true that the India of today is not the India of old, but to say that we should no longer call ourselves India is as logical as saying West Pakistan should not call itself Pakistan, because Pakistan = West Pakistan + Bangladesh.

Similarly, the Arabs called our land Hindustan.

Hindustan = Today`s India + Pakistan + BD + ... which makes you my fellow Hindustani. Maybe we should no longer be called Hindustan, then?

``No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.``

Since when is an ignorant New Yorker the measure of our identity? Why do you have to justify your identity based on the knowledge or ignorance of a New Yorker?

I personally think India, Bharat and Hindustan all apply to today`s India. I do not like the names India and Hindustan as they are not indegenous and the latter restricts us to being the land of just Hindus (Hindu is another Arab term that I personally do not like). I like the term Bharat because it is indegenous and refers to all people of today`s India.

Aamir #228:

``Enough is enough....You hindians never miss a chance to ridicule a Pakistani specially if it concerns Bharat.It is a fact that India name doesnt belong solely to what is now BHARAT.India is bangladesh Pakistan & Bharat ,Bhutan ,Napal so to say ..a region referred to as Indian region by Arabs ,Europeans even before British ,remember Columbus , set out looking for INDIA .Its a fact that Bangladesh in 30 yrs of existence ,Pakistan in 54 yrs of existence have international recognition but BHARAT draw a blank countenence if you mention it to someone in New York.No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.

``To call Bharat India is hegonomy of Bharat...``

My dear friend, you make two points:

1. India = `Bharat` + Pakistan + BD + ...

Which makes you a fellow Indian. Welcome to the fold, my friend.

2. To call `Bharat` India is hegemony - I dont understand how.

The truth is the reverse. It is Bharat that is equal to modern India + Pakistan + BD + .... Familiar with the term `Akhand Bharat` or `Undivided Bharat`? Bharat is the ancient name of this land and this makes you a fellow Bharatiya.

It is the Greeks (Alexander?) who called the Sindhu as Indus and referred to our land as India. Our land has always been Bharat. Today`s India has two names: India and Bharat. Our Constitution says `The Union of India, that is Bharat, ...`

It is true that the India of today is not the India of old, but to say that we should no longer call ourselves India is as logical as saying West Pakistan should not call itself Pakistan, because Pakistan = West Pakistan + Bangladesh.

Similarly, the Arabs called our land Hindustan.

Hindustan = Today`s India + Pakistan + BD + ... which makes you my fellow Hindustani. Maybe we should no longer be called Hindustan, then?

``No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.``

Since when is an ignorant New Yorker the measure of our identity? Why do you have to justify your identity based on the knowledge or ignorance of a New Yorker?

I personally think India, Bharat and Hindustan all apply to today`s India. I do not like the names India and Hindustan as they are not indegenous and the latter restricts us to being the land of just Hindus (Hindu is another Arab term that I personally do not like). I like the term Bharat because it is indegenous and refers to all people of today`s India.

re: ana # 242

Amen.

P.S. Passionate people are our only hope. But passion can kill, just as passion can save. Only we can decide which is the greater value.

Aamir #228:

``Enough is enough....You hindians never miss a chance to ridicule a Pakistani specially if it concerns Bharat.It is a fact that India name doesnt belong solely to what is now BHARAT.India is bangladesh Pakistan & Bharat ,Bhutan ,Napal so to say ..a region referred to as Indian region by Arabs ,Europeans even before British ,remember Columbus , set out looking for INDIA .Its a fact that Bangladesh in 30 yrs of existence ,Pakistan in 54 yrs of existence have international recognition but BHARAT draw a blank countenence if you mention it to someone in New York.No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.

``To call Bharat India is hegonomy of Bharat...``

My dear friend, you make two points:

1. India = `Bharat` + Pakistan + BD + ...

Which makes you a fellow Indian. Welcome to the fold, my friend.

2. To call `Bharat` India is hegemony - I dont understand how.

The truth is the reverse. It is Bharat that is equal to modern India + Pakistan + BD + .... Familiar with the term `Akhand Bharat` or `Undivided Bharat`? Bharat is the ancient name of this land and this makes you a fellow Bharatiya.

It is the Greeks (Alexander?) who called the Sindhu as Indus and referred to our land as India. Our land has always been Bharat. Today`s India has two names: India and Bharat. Our Constitution says `The Union of India, that is Bharat, ...`

It is true that the India of today is not the India of old, but to say that we should no longer call ourselves India is as logical as saying West Pakistan should not call itself Pakistan, because Pakistan = West Pakistan + Bangladesh.

Similarly, the Arabs called our land Hindustan.

Hindustan = Today`s India + Pakistan + BD + ... which makes you my fellow Hindustani. Maybe we should no longer be called Hindustan, then?

``No wonder a new yorker dont have clear nomenclature of INDEPENDENT INDIA which is Only 54 yrs old.``

Since when is an ignorant New Yorker the measure of our identity? Why do you have to justify your identity based on the knowledge or ignorance of a New Yorker?

I personally think India, Bharat and Hindustan all apply to today`s India. I do not like the names India and Hindustan as they are not indegenous and the latter restricts us to being the land of just Hindus (Hindu is another Arab term that I personally do not like). I like the term Bharat because it is indegenous and refers to all people of today`s India.

Stuka #208: Shankar is too easy a target. I just have to keep him honest, every now and then, to make sure he doesn`t start getting too big for his britches..... :)

RE AAmir

``By self assuming ownership of rennaisence & all laws subsequent to Magna Carter , you bashfully do that of western world ....what is wrong for them to use those laws paticularly ....untill according to them there shariat law replaces all the modern laws ...Not that i subscribe to there philosophy or dream.``

Oh wise thingy...is this Magna Carter the notorious transvestite third-fourteen times removed cousin of the former president Jimmy Carter?

You`ve got quite an imagination hoping for those outmoded quasi fiction called shariat laws to replace the so-called modern laws. Been consuming a little too much of the Taliban`s most famous cash crop, eh? And BTW, isn`t looking at a computer monitor sort of akin to looking at pictures, which is illegal by the same laws you pine for?

re:Reply #: 212

RSaxena,

I did not create the caste system. It already existed. If i do not say Upper caste, it will not cease to exist. Elections in UP and many other states are fought along caste lines. The shift in power base towards the Dalits and muslims is happening and is an important milestone.

Sridhar

anNy..

I have to say this much...I admire your passion, and don`t get me wrong, par, how do you really expect Yasser to stop his name-calling (and i think i`ve seen it too), by calling him names yourself? Granted they`re not as graphic as his, par phir bhi...

I agree with you on just about everything that you`ve said. Keep that flame burning inside of you, but you know what..I think you already know this: There are some things we simply cannot change..the likes of Ali, even Yasser, among many other people who consider themselves `intelligent beings` for example. I think it`s horrible that in response to an article which laments the death of a journalist as a result of hate and intolerance, (or for that matter, any of the articles here) that most of the replies here have been so utterly hateful and ridiculous and so lacking in common sense as to not even deserve a response. I`ve seen plenty of posts like this before, and I`ve heard similar stuff and all I have to say is this: Grow up all you bachche log...and get out of this ghaflat, and ignorance that you`re drowning yourself in. If you think you can move forward in leaps and bounds by putting Pakistanis, Indians, the color brown (which as allergic as Aicha is to it, happens to be the color of many of our skins) down so hatefully, then we should all be ashamed and very very afraid! `Cause the daldal is just getting thicker and thicker, and it`s sucking us in to the point of no return.

Don`t give up AnNy..just don`t give in! :)

#232, SaminaShah

As someone said, in islamic countries, pluralism/democractic elections mean this:

One man, One vote and...One time.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

arjun m

``in that case shouldnt we indians be called brown americans instead of native americans being called red indians?``

pls speak for yourself - i have no intention of being called brown anything. allergic to that word !!

Pakistan Through Journalists` Eyes

A panel discussion about contemporary Pakistan

Thursday, February 28, 2002

6:30-8:30 p.m.

IndoCenter of Art & Culture

530 W. 25th St (btw 10th & 11th Aves) - NOTE VENUE!

In collaboration with SAJA (South Asian Journalists Association),

AAJA-NY

(Asian American Journalists Association of NY) and SADA (South Asian

Dispatch Agency), the IndoCenter of Art & Culture hosts a panel

discussion

on the role of the media in the contemporary situation in Pakistan.

We will begin the evening with a tribute to Daniel Pearl, through whose

eyes readers around the world got to know Pakistan and South Asia

better.

PANELISTS:

Masood Haider, the senior correspondent for DAWN,

Wajid Shamsul Hassan, a veteran Pakistani journalist who has worked

through many events in Pakistani history over the last 25 years.

Azeem Mian, the correspondent for News and Jang

Laura Winter, who just returned from Pakistan where she

was reporting for the New York Daily News

Moderator: Ibrahim Malick, editor, South Asian Dispatch Agency

Thursday, February 28, 2002

6:30-8:30 p.m.

Tickets:

$7 for SAJA, AAJA, SADA and IndoCenter Members)

$10 for the public

RSVP: 212-462-4221 or mail@indocenter.org

LOCATION:

The IndoCenter is located at 530 West 25th Street, between 10th and

11th

Avenues. The closest subway is the 23rd Street stop on the C and E

lines.

You can also take the M23 bus to get to the Center.

Refreshments will be served

ABOUT THE SPEAKERS:

http://www.indocenter.org/events.asp?Status=1&id=53

Wajid Shamsul Hassan has been a journalist for over 30 years. He was

editor

of Daily News, Karachi Pakistan. In 1988 he was appointed Chairman of

Pakistan Press Trust PPT, a government institution which owned several

newspapers and a wire service. He was responsible for the privatization

of

these newspapers. He was later appointed as Pakistan ambassador to UK

during

Benazir Bhutto`s government. He lives in exile in UK. He currently

writes

columns for several Pakistani newspapers and magazines including News,

Mag,

Samwonline.com

among others.

Masood Haider is a veteran Pakistani journalist based in New York. He

is a

senior correspondent of Pakistan`s largest English language daily,

DAWN.

Ibrahim Malick is a veteran journalist of Afghanistan, India and

Pakistan.

He has worked for a variety of print publications including the Daily

News

(Pakistan), News International (Pakistan), Frontier Post (Pakistan),

The

Guardian (UK), and The International (UK). He has also been a featured

commentator and reporter for several broadcast outlets including The

Voice

of Germany and WBAI Radio (New York). In addition to his reporting

activities, Mr. Malick has written a book ``Afghanistan at Crossroads``

(1988)

and contributed to numerous articles on the history and culture of

South

Asia. Currently, he is the New York based Editor for South Asia`s

leading

indigenous news agency, SADA.

Azeem Mian is the correspondent for two major Pakistani newspapers,

News

and Jang. He is also president of UN Correspondents Assosciation.

Laura J. Winter is a journalist who recently returned from three months

in

Pakistan and Afghanistan where she covered the War on Terrorism for the

New

York Daily News, the South China Morning Post and Glamour Magazine. She

has

been living in China off and on for the last eight years, working most

recently as a reporter for the Hong Kong iMail. She has also covered

national politics from Washington D.C. for the Philadelphia Daily News

and

the Detroit Free Press. Her photo credits include Time, Associated

Press,

the South China Morning Post and Glamour magazine. She is a graduate of

Columbia University`s Graduate School of Journalism.

More info about the IndoCenter: http://www.indocenter.org

Date: Thursday, February 28

Time: 6:30-8:30 p.m.

Admission:

$7 for SAJA, AAJA, SADA and IndoCenter Members)

$10 for the public

RSVP: (212) 462-4221 or mail@indocenter.org

Refreshments will be served

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

re: aamir 12-head

taaliyaan taaliyan...you are hereby awarded the prestigious Village Idiot on Chowk award...

victory speech time

how do you feel? would you like to thank anyone? did you ever doubt yourself? you seem to be a natural at this...what advice do you offer to other aspiring winners of this award such as romair and hobbyty?

Sigalph,

``re farangi-kush 203

Funny and hypocritical when totalitarians like you quote libertarian articles to get out of the bind. In your ideal khilafa kind of regime, even writing an article would be punishable by rigorous imprisonment at the least.

Few things astonish me more than the rush of ISlamist totalitarians to beg the protections of pluralist tolerance when push comes to shove. I mean imagine Hamas sympathizers screaming about the Bill of Rights and all that good stuff which they hate in their hearts.``

Well said. Its creepy how extremists leech onto the progressive Western media when 1. they would not allow such dissent themselves 2. they don`t have the institutions/linkages or legitimacy to provide these critiques. There are ``inglisyphilitic`` lawyers and human rights groups trying to work on the behalf of the prisoners in Guantanamo and the detained undocumented immigrants in the US, but these besharam cyber jihadis will admit nothing, contribute nothing positive. Good riddance.



Farangi Kush/Afaqui,

Why did you warn us that the jihadis were coming to a theater near us over the summer?

yasser:

`` I suggest you give this choking `self righteousness` that you preach some rest.``

how bout i choke you to death buddy boy? before i start, dont you dare get cheeky and cutesy on me yasser..i will break every bone in your body if you do

now then, iv been spoiling for a fight i know...i have a few nasty things to say to you and it was kind off difficult to do so when u came back with smileys after i called u an embarassment..now is my chance

the idea of my post numbskull, was that DONT FIGHT, DONT INSULT like you do habitually on chowk...if a woman whose husband has been murdered and the murder taped, can speak of understanding the problems of a city whose inhabitants did that to him, then just who the hell are you and i to fight over what happened so long ago and even more important, over people who died like a few million days ago? (i speak of quaidoo and nehro and ghandi) The idea of my self righteous post dear baboon was that it takes a big heart, really really big heart to speak like that woman did and that you and i should be crazy ashamed that such a thing happened in the country we profess to love and that we should learn from the lady since it is intolerance that is doing these things and we really need to take a look...samajh aya?...saying things like, hindus on the board run away and they have no credibility etc is ugly..i have no deep love for hindus but it pisses me off when u act all passionate about pakistan and then start mouthing off like a snake...we (pakistanis u know) need to respect others religions and ideas for real and not just pretend to and talk nice and flowery..its because of intolerance that daniel pearl died and it is the same intolerance that you often show on chowk....and excuse me if i say this sweetumnz but calling anyone who disagrees with you names (dont ask me to dig out posts..i dont have time) is sad and its okay if you do it...really it is but if youre going to profess to do this in the name of love for pakistan and its founder and make all of us look like bloody idiots, then i have a very big problem with you...id end with a take care and sincerely but i refuse to act all older sister and ish to you, number one since youre older and number two since patronizing and explaining things to you has no effect as as been seen and i can expect for this post to injure your ego which is the size of the english channel and for you to come back at me with nasty things

remember, annoying little squirrel, that in the end nothing matters but being credible, honest, kind...and if you have a problem with all that i just said, take it up the tailpipe

Lessons to learm:

1. For Musharraf:

Don`t blame Indians for Pearl`s murder just because ur foreign trip is losing some limelight. And do not hide the murder from press ppl for the same reason. And do not support ISI all the time. And dont cite holy scripts for ur dictatorship

2. For Religous Pakistanis

Every guerilla action needs to have some contingency plans and follow-up actions. What were u thinking? He was not a some hindu indian!

3. For Liberal Pakistanis

And u thought Musharraf is the best thing that could happen to Pakistan? Sleep on.

4. For Apologetic non resident Pakistanis (like the author)

Where were these tears when the same ppl were killing hindu Indians? Why an American needs ur tears so mucc? Is this what they call racisim?

5. For Americans

Arresting aliens and keeping them incommunicado for months, keeping 100s of ppl in Cuba without POW status and any charge is not going to be cost less.

6. For Bush Admin

same as (5). But sacrificing principles in throwing all weight behind a dictator is also not going to be costless.

7. For ISI

Long live Pakistan Army should be ur motto.

8. Pakistan Army

It is ur time to sign 1971 surrender papers, why delay it?

9. For Pakistan-hating Indians

Lets just concentrate on Pakistan Army, will u? Spare the Pakistani ppl

10. For liberal Indians

When Pakistan backs off from Kashmir, it is ur duty to fill in the gap in meaningful way

11. For me

Start taking responsibility, and stop blaming others, will u?

re: India not existing before 1947

Relax guys. It`s absurd to parachute univited between the daringly duelling duo of RSax and Scout. Besides, sure as hell, India did not exist before 1947 in its current form.

Got to have a sense of humor, folks. Life`s too serious to get caught up on trivial things.

``Don`t sweat the small stuff.``

Scout, I am with you, girl.

Scout

``India didn`t really exist till 1947 ...``

Dear, you are hallucinating again. Perhaps you imply that India in its present form didnt exist till 1947. Yes actually the lands of Pak, Bangladesh, Nepal, etc were included in India. Under Ashoka, it was simply India, under Guptas it was Indian golden age, under Mughals it was called Mughal India, but India it was. Greek referred to this whole subcontinent and its people as people of Indica as ear