A Convert’s Complaint: Analyzing Naipaul’s Views on Islam
Zafar Anjum February 26, 2002
#302 Posted by sfd19 on February 26, 2007 11:47:41 am
I tend to agree with both Naipaul and the author Zafar Anjum. While living in Saudi Arabia and Oman for several years I was shocked when I asked my good Egyptian friend about visiting Cairo to see the pyramids. His response an educated and otherwise gentle and nice man was that they were Haram and should be destroyed by the Goverment. This wa in 1985 way before the Taliban did what they did in Afghanistan. When Naipaul says that the convert is asked to forget and destroy his past he is not incorrect as was my realiztion when I lived there in the Middle East. I tried to reason with my highly educated Egyptian friend that they were huge accomplishments reflecting the engineering skills possesed by the Egyptians at that time when the rest of the world especially Europe was extemely primitive. His response was the history of Egypt starts with the coming of Islam and that anything prior to that does not matter at all. I guess the Taliban think in the same way and sought to destroy their past as well.
I was recently in Malaysia which converted to Islam fairly recently in the last two to three hundred years. The conversion was initially superficial with converts still practising some Hindu customs and oral traditions. One of the traditions was the Ramikayen which is the Ramayana of India. In both Indonesia and Malaysia dance troupes would visit villages and do the show as they did for thousands of years prior. However of late the Mullahs of both countries have strenously objected to this and have succeded in getting them banned much to the dismay of the rural people for whom it was a major source of entertainment and a link to thier past. This again proves that Naipaul is right out side India and the author has to accept it even though his personal beliefs and his appreciation of past links are something he would like to cherish.
However I do agree with Zafar that some educated and uneducated Muslims of India do talk about their past prior to their conversion to Islam. The number is decreasing fast however due to Wahabization of Islam in India as the author himself points to and it will not be very long that Naipaul will be right about the Indian sub continent as well.
I was recently in Malaysia which converted to Islam fairly recently in the last two to three hundred years. The conversion was initially superficial with converts still practising some Hindu customs and oral traditions. One of the traditions was the Ramikayen which is the Ramayana of India. In both Indonesia and Malaysia dance troupes would visit villages and do the show as they did for thousands of years prior. However of late the Mullahs of both countries have strenously objected to this and have succeded in getting them banned much to the dismay of the rural people for whom it was a major source of entertainment and a link to thier past. This again proves that Naipaul is right out side India and the author has to accept it even though his personal beliefs and his appreciation of past links are something he would like to cherish.
However I do agree with Zafar that some educated and uneducated Muslims of India do talk about their past prior to their conversion to Islam. The number is decreasing fast however due to Wahabization of Islam in India as the author himself points to and it will not be very long that Naipaul will be right about the Indian sub continent as well.
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#301 Posted by seemachitta on March 29, 2006 11:33:34 pm
Zafar Anjum,
My responses to your analysis:
````To any educated Muslim, there is no doubt about the historical veracity that he has studied in the textbooks. In that sense, say for an Indian Muslim, Asoka and Budhha and Shivaji and Babar are part of his heritage. If you ask an educated Indian Muslim, he would not be dismissive about his heritage. He would find, as I found out, his heritage—Islamic or un-Islamic—rather ennobling—a source of mixed baggage to learn from, to make this life worth living. ``````
Majority of Muslims in India (educated or not educated), have been brainwashed to not respect their heritage, but consider it as a bad baggage(as you put it) to forget about. They have been brainwashed to think that they are lucky now that they are converted. Unfortunately these brainwashed people believe in this and look down upon their own ancestors- How sad is that!
``````It is true that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was revealed in Arab. The seed of this faith, like any other faith, traveled to different parts of the world from that epicentre. However, it is a misnomer to label it as an Arab religion. This term gives the impression that it (Islam) was meant only for the Arabs. A Priori, it may also imply that those non-Arabs who converted to this faith were somehow illegitimate or inferior in doing so. However, it was Islam, which preached the message that no one—Arab, non-Arab, white, black, tall, short—is superior or inferior to any one else, except in terms of piety.``````
Every culture is unique to it`s regions. Every religion is unique to it`s birthplace. Why can`t we respect that and enjoy it in those regions? Why does Islam and Christianity have to go around converting other cultures ? Wouldn`t the world be much more interesting to have diverse cultures? Picture the whole world full of Muslims or Christians- How boring is that? These religions were spread in India with Force, Bribes and targeting lower Hindu classes to convert - nothing more than that. The answer to the problems of lower classes is not conversion.(but that is a different subject). Islam may claim that no one is superior or inferior- but the fact of the matter is that classes exist in Islam too. The Arabs do look down upon Indian and Pakistan converts - That is a known fact. Sunnis and Shias look down upon each other - So Islam has classes too !
````Not even the prophet was a born Muslim. After he got enlightenment, only then did he become the messenger of God.``````
I wish the Prophet was also enlightened with the fact that he needs to respect other religions too- I wish the prophet had understood the depth of what Idols really meant before ordering destruction. Why did the prophet crave for his religion to be spread all over?- Because he thought Islam is the best solution for everyone- He was mistaken.
`````` Is he identifying Islam as a faith with an automatic and in-built ignorance (towards the outside world) that it infuses in is followers?``````
Unfortunately YES! That is the root of the Islamic problem today. Majority of Muslims believe (are brainwashed) that theirs is the best religion and the rest of the religions are inferior.
`````` (a convert’s) holy places are in Arab lands. ``````
The fact that you have to turn towards Mecca to pray no matter where you are says a lot about this sentence. THE ARAB LAND IS YOUR HOLY LAND - every other land is inferior in Muslim`s eyes. Isn`t that so limited in your thinking!
``````The fact is very simple. Any new idea or religion, which enters a society, seeks rejection of the old. Rather, the acceptance of this new idea is based on the premise that the old is not reasonable any more, and hence it’s abandonment, and the embracing of the new faith. What’s discarded in the process is what had become old, trite, and useless—a part of the process of cultural/ideological evolution. What is left behind is what is historically moribund. ````````
Converted Muslims did not reject their old tradition on their own- They were forced to - Death or Islam was their choice? they have been brainwashed to reject their old tradition. Islam is shallow in it`s thinking - which is understandable `cause it`s new. The important rituals it calls for are redundant. Remember `Old is Gold` Mankind`s oldest religions including Paganism and Hinduism have far more indepth philosophies which are applicable to every generation. New religions are limited in their thinking and their rituals have no meaning to every generation for the most part.
To all converts: Be proud and accept your original heritage - You will be more respected worldwide!
Seema Chitta
My responses to your analysis:
````To any educated Muslim, there is no doubt about the historical veracity that he has studied in the textbooks. In that sense, say for an Indian Muslim, Asoka and Budhha and Shivaji and Babar are part of his heritage. If you ask an educated Indian Muslim, he would not be dismissive about his heritage. He would find, as I found out, his heritage—Islamic or un-Islamic—rather ennobling—a source of mixed baggage to learn from, to make this life worth living. ``````
Majority of Muslims in India (educated or not educated), have been brainwashed to not respect their heritage, but consider it as a bad baggage(as you put it) to forget about. They have been brainwashed to think that they are lucky now that they are converted. Unfortunately these brainwashed people believe in this and look down upon their own ancestors- How sad is that!
``````It is true that Islam, like Judaism and Christianity, was revealed in Arab. The seed of this faith, like any other faith, traveled to different parts of the world from that epicentre. However, it is a misnomer to label it as an Arab religion. This term gives the impression that it (Islam) was meant only for the Arabs. A Priori, it may also imply that those non-Arabs who converted to this faith were somehow illegitimate or inferior in doing so. However, it was Islam, which preached the message that no one—Arab, non-Arab, white, black, tall, short—is superior or inferior to any one else, except in terms of piety.``````
Every culture is unique to it`s regions. Every religion is unique to it`s birthplace. Why can`t we respect that and enjoy it in those regions? Why does Islam and Christianity have to go around converting other cultures ? Wouldn`t the world be much more interesting to have diverse cultures? Picture the whole world full of Muslims or Christians- How boring is that? These religions were spread in India with Force, Bribes and targeting lower Hindu classes to convert - nothing more than that. The answer to the problems of lower classes is not conversion.(but that is a different subject). Islam may claim that no one is superior or inferior- but the fact of the matter is that classes exist in Islam too. The Arabs do look down upon Indian and Pakistan converts - That is a known fact. Sunnis and Shias look down upon each other - So Islam has classes too !
````Not even the prophet was a born Muslim. After he got enlightenment, only then did he become the messenger of God.``````
I wish the Prophet was also enlightened with the fact that he needs to respect other religions too- I wish the prophet had understood the depth of what Idols really meant before ordering destruction. Why did the prophet crave for his religion to be spread all over?- Because he thought Islam is the best solution for everyone- He was mistaken.
`````` Is he identifying Islam as a faith with an automatic and in-built ignorance (towards the outside world) that it infuses in is followers?``````
Unfortunately YES! That is the root of the Islamic problem today. Majority of Muslims believe (are brainwashed) that theirs is the best religion and the rest of the religions are inferior.
`````` (a convert’s) holy places are in Arab lands. ``````
The fact that you have to turn towards Mecca to pray no matter where you are says a lot about this sentence. THE ARAB LAND IS YOUR HOLY LAND - every other land is inferior in Muslim`s eyes. Isn`t that so limited in your thinking!
``````The fact is very simple. Any new idea or religion, which enters a society, seeks rejection of the old. Rather, the acceptance of this new idea is based on the premise that the old is not reasonable any more, and hence it’s abandonment, and the embracing of the new faith. What’s discarded in the process is what had become old, trite, and useless—a part of the process of cultural/ideological evolution. What is left behind is what is historically moribund. ````````
Converted Muslims did not reject their old tradition on their own- They were forced to - Death or Islam was their choice? they have been brainwashed to reject their old tradition. Islam is shallow in it`s thinking - which is understandable `cause it`s new. The important rituals it calls for are redundant. Remember `Old is Gold` Mankind`s oldest religions including Paganism and Hinduism have far more indepth philosophies which are applicable to every generation. New religions are limited in their thinking and their rituals have no meaning to every generation for the most part.
To all converts: Be proud and accept your original heritage - You will be more respected worldwide!
Seema Chitta
#300 Posted by soysauce on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Unkalji
After reading some of your sane comments on Anoop Bhat`s board, i`ve decided to go easy on you. I`ll forgive you for the brotheltalk.
On to the issue at hand - the brahmins have not been simply mindng their business. During the Raj, as district collectors, magistrates, sub-inspectors, vakils and politicians, they were minding everyone else`s business. Naturally then, they could not be allowed to continue to aggrandize those benefits only to themselves in a system with one-person-one-vote. The second point is, try starting a gated community here where you exclude some race or the other and see if the city would even pave a road or provide electricity.
For someone who supports affirmative action, the models need not be periyar or annadurai. It could be Rajaji or Gandhiji.. Think about that. Peace.
After reading some of your sane comments on Anoop Bhat`s board, i`ve decided to go easy on you. I`ll forgive you for the brotheltalk.
On to the issue at hand - the brahmins have not been simply mindng their business. During the Raj, as district collectors, magistrates, sub-inspectors, vakils and politicians, they were minding everyone else`s business. Naturally then, they could not be allowed to continue to aggrandize those benefits only to themselves in a system with one-person-one-vote. The second point is, try starting a gated community here where you exclude some race or the other and see if the city would even pave a road or provide electricity.
For someone who supports affirmative action, the models need not be periyar or annadurai. It could be Rajaji or Gandhiji.. Think about that. Peace.
#299 Posted by harimau on March 17, 2002 3:55:26 pm
Ref Tamil Barbarian #: 313
[Keep up the ranting.]
I am the one who is ranting but you who thinks that the kannada-heritage Father Big Man who called you Tamils barbarians is worth of respect by Tamils? I applaud your logic.
[Agreed then that brahmins provide the intellectual framework for untouchability?]
No. There was no need for anyone to provide any ``intellectual framework`` for discrimination. It is as rampant in Tamil Nadu today as it was prior to the arrival of any brahmins there. Remember, we are Aryan settlers in Dravidastan.
[You are not arguing that the brahmins do it because of some sangam poem,.. are you?]
No, you pathetic idiot. I said that it existed independently of any brahministic influence no matter what The Great Intellectual had been saying. Your tiny brain is unable to grasp this.
[(i`ll reserve my belief on (a) such a thing exists & (b) it says what you say it does)]
Have you read ANY Tamil poetry? I don`t mean Vairamuthu`s ``Vida vendum achathai, Thoda vendum Uchathai, Athi kalai selai sollumadi michatthi`` kind of crap that you go about singing (translate THAT for the Chowk readership, you mofo). Do you even know what Sangham poem is attributed to Lord Shiva? Can you enumerate the various Tamil anthologies of antiquity? Do you have a SINGLE Tamil book in your house except to throw in the fire as your ancestors used to do with the palm-leaf manuscripts that brahmins like UV Swaminatha Iyer rescued from the flames?
[Do you know of any other castes that practice untouchability? Just as i thought, it`s only the brahmins & some FCs.]
Every single caste in Tamil Nadu practices untouchability with respect to the Harijans. Go back to your village and invite a Harijan into your house and cringe as you get a tongue lashing from your parents and siblings and as the Dalit waits abjectly outside the door. Just because you have moved to the US doesn`t mean that your mommy and daddy are not living in some stone-age mindset. Or you, for that matter.
[You said brahmins aren`t culpable and i have argued that they are since the DEHUMANIZATION of the dalits has been a brahmin thing. The BCs are merely implementing the brahmin p(r)ogram.]
No. The Brahmins practiced and practice exclusionism. They did not want to associate with you. They wanted to be left alone. They lived in `agraharams` in little villages on river banks, spent their time reciting the Vedas and teaching them to their children, and functioned as temple priests. This is no different than rich people in the US living inside a gated community today or immigrants choosing to live in Polish, Italian, Irish or Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn at the turn of the century. Those brahmins who had demonstrated great knowledge of the scriptures were given land as grants by various southern kings; these employed laborers to till the land. They asked for nothing from the rest of the community except to be left alone. When you complain that a brahmin wouldn`t give water to a Dalit on a hot day if the Dalit came knocking, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Brahmin also suffered the same pangs of thirst when he stepped out of his house because he couldn`t ask for water from anybody either. But you cannot show a single instance of a group of brahmins going out with sickles in hand and chopping off the heads of Dalits as you fcukers are doing. If nothing else, the brahmins took the injunction not to harm any life form seriously. Please tell me the number of brahmins convicted of murder, arson or mayhem in the last 100 years in Tamil Nadu. Compare that to the number of Thevars, Mudaliars, Vellalars (of the left-handed or right-handed variety), Naicks, Naidus, Goundars, Nadars, etc., who have been convicted of the same types of crimes. Since you obviously have no sense of history except the crap put out by the Great Intellectual and the Doctor Artist Leader, I will give you one name of a Brahmin who committed murder: Vanchinathan Iyer who shot dead Mr. Ash, the Collector of the district, at the train station in Maniyachi to protest British rule in India. So, there is a headstart for you; you can now attempt to list the rest of the brahmin murderers and arsonists. I would be very interested in those who have been convicted of killing Dalits.
[You asked an entirely irrelevant question but it set me thinking tho. Would YOU consider marrying a dalit, or even someone from a BC? Go ahead, surprise me.]
Listen thayoli; don`t tell me it started you thinking. That has not happened in Tamil Nadu in 80 years where you have mindlessly voted the DMK/ADMK parties or even the Congress to power on casteist basis. Since brahmins are accused of exclusion, I asked you to prove YOUR bona fides by marrying a Dalit. It is an extremely relevant question in view of your protestations about how wonderfully non-discriminatory you and your Tamil cohorts are. It is obvious you did not marry a Dalit, will not marry off your younger brother or sister to a Dalit, will not marry your daughter off to one, and would continue to claim that only brahmins are exclusionists. With this kind of intellectual dishonesty or mental incapacity, why should I dilute my genes by interbreeding with your kind of people? No, I will NOT marry a Dalit. I have the balls to publicly proclaim it. Now let us see whether YOU have either the intestinal fortitude or intellectual integrity to admit that you also practice exclusionism and will not marry a Dalit. Or even outside your caste.
I expect no surprises from you. After all, The Great Intellectual married his son off to a Mudaliar (his own caste) bride after proclaiming for decades how caste barriers should be broken down and presiding over inter-caste marriages for those who were foolish enough to believe in him.
You know what your problem is? In your heart you know that you are an affirmative-action, quota-filling candidate who would not have survived brutal open competition in India. Based on a college degree obtained this way, you have made it to the US and you now proclaim yourself to be the equal of those who have EARNED their degrees. Yet, on a daily basis, you are faced with your own incompetence and have nagging doubts about if indeed you can ever measure up on an objective scale. No, you cannot and you will not. You are just trash that has managed to float up in the gutter.
One doesn`t have to be a brahmin to win a Nobel Prize though three of Indian ancestry have been. But one must have faith in one`s ability and the determination to learn and apply oneself to the pursuit of one`s chosen profession. So long as you fcukers don`t have that but continue to blame Brahmin exclusionism for your incapacity, you can only hope to remain affirmative-action candidates.
I am going to surprise you: I will have a child in my family marry a Dalit the day one of you affirmative-action candidates from Tamil Nadu win a Nobel Prize in any field or the Fields Medal in mathematics. Ha, ha, ha!
PS. I know what you are going to post next. You will accuse me of racism. That is okay; one has to be racist and discriminate against those with a genetic disposition to mental incapacity.
[Keep up the ranting.]
I am the one who is ranting but you who thinks that the kannada-heritage Father Big Man who called you Tamils barbarians is worth of respect by Tamils? I applaud your logic.
[Agreed then that brahmins provide the intellectual framework for untouchability?]
No. There was no need for anyone to provide any ``intellectual framework`` for discrimination. It is as rampant in Tamil Nadu today as it was prior to the arrival of any brahmins there. Remember, we are Aryan settlers in Dravidastan.
[You are not arguing that the brahmins do it because of some sangam poem,.. are you?]
No, you pathetic idiot. I said that it existed independently of any brahministic influence no matter what The Great Intellectual had been saying. Your tiny brain is unable to grasp this.
[(i`ll reserve my belief on (a) such a thing exists & (b) it says what you say it does)]
Have you read ANY Tamil poetry? I don`t mean Vairamuthu`s ``Vida vendum achathai, Thoda vendum Uchathai, Athi kalai selai sollumadi michatthi`` kind of crap that you go about singing (translate THAT for the Chowk readership, you mofo). Do you even know what Sangham poem is attributed to Lord Shiva? Can you enumerate the various Tamil anthologies of antiquity? Do you have a SINGLE Tamil book in your house except to throw in the fire as your ancestors used to do with the palm-leaf manuscripts that brahmins like UV Swaminatha Iyer rescued from the flames?
[Do you know of any other castes that practice untouchability? Just as i thought, it`s only the brahmins & some FCs.]
Every single caste in Tamil Nadu practices untouchability with respect to the Harijans. Go back to your village and invite a Harijan into your house and cringe as you get a tongue lashing from your parents and siblings and as the Dalit waits abjectly outside the door. Just because you have moved to the US doesn`t mean that your mommy and daddy are not living in some stone-age mindset. Or you, for that matter.
[You said brahmins aren`t culpable and i have argued that they are since the DEHUMANIZATION of the dalits has been a brahmin thing. The BCs are merely implementing the brahmin p(r)ogram.]
No. The Brahmins practiced and practice exclusionism. They did not want to associate with you. They wanted to be left alone. They lived in `agraharams` in little villages on river banks, spent their time reciting the Vedas and teaching them to their children, and functioned as temple priests. This is no different than rich people in the US living inside a gated community today or immigrants choosing to live in Polish, Italian, Irish or Jewish neighborhoods in Brooklyn at the turn of the century. Those brahmins who had demonstrated great knowledge of the scriptures were given land as grants by various southern kings; these employed laborers to till the land. They asked for nothing from the rest of the community except to be left alone. When you complain that a brahmin wouldn`t give water to a Dalit on a hot day if the Dalit came knocking, you conveniently ignore the fact that the Brahmin also suffered the same pangs of thirst when he stepped out of his house because he couldn`t ask for water from anybody either. But you cannot show a single instance of a group of brahmins going out with sickles in hand and chopping off the heads of Dalits as you fcukers are doing. If nothing else, the brahmins took the injunction not to harm any life form seriously. Please tell me the number of brahmins convicted of murder, arson or mayhem in the last 100 years in Tamil Nadu. Compare that to the number of Thevars, Mudaliars, Vellalars (of the left-handed or right-handed variety), Naicks, Naidus, Goundars, Nadars, etc., who have been convicted of the same types of crimes. Since you obviously have no sense of history except the crap put out by the Great Intellectual and the Doctor Artist Leader, I will give you one name of a Brahmin who committed murder: Vanchinathan Iyer who shot dead Mr. Ash, the Collector of the district, at the train station in Maniyachi to protest British rule in India. So, there is a headstart for you; you can now attempt to list the rest of the brahmin murderers and arsonists. I would be very interested in those who have been convicted of killing Dalits.
[You asked an entirely irrelevant question but it set me thinking tho. Would YOU consider marrying a dalit, or even someone from a BC? Go ahead, surprise me.]
Listen thayoli; don`t tell me it started you thinking. That has not happened in Tamil Nadu in 80 years where you have mindlessly voted the DMK/ADMK parties or even the Congress to power on casteist basis. Since brahmins are accused of exclusion, I asked you to prove YOUR bona fides by marrying a Dalit. It is an extremely relevant question in view of your protestations about how wonderfully non-discriminatory you and your Tamil cohorts are. It is obvious you did not marry a Dalit, will not marry off your younger brother or sister to a Dalit, will not marry your daughter off to one, and would continue to claim that only brahmins are exclusionists. With this kind of intellectual dishonesty or mental incapacity, why should I dilute my genes by interbreeding with your kind of people? No, I will NOT marry a Dalit. I have the balls to publicly proclaim it. Now let us see whether YOU have either the intestinal fortitude or intellectual integrity to admit that you also practice exclusionism and will not marry a Dalit. Or even outside your caste.
I expect no surprises from you. After all, The Great Intellectual married his son off to a Mudaliar (his own caste) bride after proclaiming for decades how caste barriers should be broken down and presiding over inter-caste marriages for those who were foolish enough to believe in him.
You know what your problem is? In your heart you know that you are an affirmative-action, quota-filling candidate who would not have survived brutal open competition in India. Based on a college degree obtained this way, you have made it to the US and you now proclaim yourself to be the equal of those who have EARNED their degrees. Yet, on a daily basis, you are faced with your own incompetence and have nagging doubts about if indeed you can ever measure up on an objective scale. No, you cannot and you will not. You are just trash that has managed to float up in the gutter.
One doesn`t have to be a brahmin to win a Nobel Prize though three of Indian ancestry have been. But one must have faith in one`s ability and the determination to learn and apply oneself to the pursuit of one`s chosen profession. So long as you fcukers don`t have that but continue to blame Brahmin exclusionism for your incapacity, you can only hope to remain affirmative-action candidates.
I am going to surprise you: I will have a child in my family marry a Dalit the day one of you affirmative-action candidates from Tamil Nadu win a Nobel Prize in any field or the Fields Medal in mathematics. Ha, ha, ha!
PS. I know what you are going to post next. You will accuse me of racism. That is okay; one has to be racist and discriminate against those with a genetic disposition to mental incapacity.
#298 Posted by soysauce on March 15, 2002 4:20:28 pm
Unkalji,
Keep up the ranting.
Agreed then that brahmins provide the intellectual framework for untouchability? You are not arguing that the brahmins do it because of some sangam poem (i`ll reserve my belief on (a) such a thing exists & (b) it says what you say it does), are you? Do you know of any other castes that practice untouchability? Just as i thought, it`s only the brahmins & some FCs.
Since your comprehension seems to be limited, especially when you blow off like you`ve been, let me recap what`s been said here: You said brahmins aren`t culpable and i have argued that they are since the DEHUMANIZATION of the dalits has been a brahmin thing. The BCs are merely implementing the brahmin p(r)ogram.
You asked an entirely irrelevant question but it set me thinking tho. Would YOU consider marrying a dalit, or even someone from a BC? Go ahead, surprise me.
Keep up the ranting.
Agreed then that brahmins provide the intellectual framework for untouchability? You are not arguing that the brahmins do it because of some sangam poem (i`ll reserve my belief on (a) such a thing exists & (b) it says what you say it does), are you? Do you know of any other castes that practice untouchability? Just as i thought, it`s only the brahmins & some FCs.
Since your comprehension seems to be limited, especially when you blow off like you`ve been, let me recap what`s been said here: You said brahmins aren`t culpable and i have argued that they are since the DEHUMANIZATION of the dalits has been a brahmin thing. The BCs are merely implementing the brahmin p(r)ogram.
You asked an entirely irrelevant question but it set me thinking tho. Would YOU consider marrying a dalit, or even someone from a BC? Go ahead, surprise me.
#297 Posted by harimau on March 14, 2002 11:02:32 pm
Re Tamil Rapist #: 311
[I could use a little amusement now & then between all the serious stuff at work.]
Serious stuff at work? For intellectual pygmies like you? Ha, ha, ha! I am sure writing your name down is seriously challenging for you.
[how quickly you get the brahmins off the hook! They have provided (and continue to provide) the intellectual firmament on which all this caste bullshit is based. They may not burn the dalits physically but, to the brahmins, dalits are still untouchables to this day. The dehumanization of the dalits is the handiwork largely of the brahmins. It`s kind of like your intellectual justifications for the attacks on muslims in gujarat. You didn`t do it personally, but..]
You wouldn`t be sh!tting me when you say it is all the Brahmins` handiwork, would you? How about that Sangham poem where the fisherwoman refuses food to the poet saying she is Untouchable? Would that be due to Brahmin influence too? Would that mean that Brahmins moved into Tamil Nadu 12,000 years ago, considering that you Tamil a$$holes claim that the three Sanghams existed for a total of 10,000 years and that all Sanghams were extinct by the advent of the Christian Era? Can you do arithmetic or is that too much for your anencephalic head?
So we Brahmins tell the Dalits not to come near us because we have pujas to perform and you guys burn them to death and both are the same? How wonderfully clever! Try telling that to a Dalit. As to your empathy for the Dalits, have you chosen to marry one? I don`t think so! What will the people in your village say?
[``To think that you actually have bred yourself!``
Am i now being accused of parthenogenesis?!]
As I said before, you can`t understand English.
[I could use a little amusement now & then between all the serious stuff at work.]
Serious stuff at work? For intellectual pygmies like you? Ha, ha, ha! I am sure writing your name down is seriously challenging for you.
[how quickly you get the brahmins off the hook! They have provided (and continue to provide) the intellectual firmament on which all this caste bullshit is based. They may not burn the dalits physically but, to the brahmins, dalits are still untouchables to this day. The dehumanization of the dalits is the handiwork largely of the brahmins. It`s kind of like your intellectual justifications for the attacks on muslims in gujarat. You didn`t do it personally, but..]
You wouldn`t be sh!tting me when you say it is all the Brahmins` handiwork, would you? How about that Sangham poem where the fisherwoman refuses food to the poet saying she is Untouchable? Would that be due to Brahmin influence too? Would that mean that Brahmins moved into Tamil Nadu 12,000 years ago, considering that you Tamil a$$holes claim that the three Sanghams existed for a total of 10,000 years and that all Sanghams were extinct by the advent of the Christian Era? Can you do arithmetic or is that too much for your anencephalic head?
So we Brahmins tell the Dalits not to come near us because we have pujas to perform and you guys burn them to death and both are the same? How wonderfully clever! Try telling that to a Dalit. As to your empathy for the Dalits, have you chosen to marry one? I don`t think so! What will the people in your village say?
[``To think that you actually have bred yourself!``
Am i now being accused of parthenogenesis?!]
As I said before, you can`t understand English.
#296 Posted by soysauce on March 14, 2002 9:24:10 pm
Unkalji,
Pleased to see that you are back to your ranting self again. You had me worried there for awhile. I could use a little amusement now & then between all the serious stuff at work.
I agree with you (gasp!) that the BCs are practically at war with the dalits in parts of TN. Long, long time ago, 2 dozen or so dalits were burned to death in their huts after all the exits had been blocked. This happened near my village and has passed into the village lore. There`s even a novel (in tamil) about the incident. BUT, how quickly you get the brahmins off the hook! They have provided (and continue to provide) the intellectual firmament on which all this caste bullshit is based. They may not burn the dalits physically but, to the brahmins, dalits are still untouchables to this day. The dehumanization of the dalits is the handiwork largely of the brahmins. It`s kind of like your intellectual justifications for the attacks on muslims in gujarat. You didn`t do it personally, but..
``To think that you actually have bred yourself!``
Am i now being accused of parthenogenesis?!
``Cretin!``
A most interesting sig. I see you use several different ones too..
Pleased to see that you are back to your ranting self again. You had me worried there for awhile. I could use a little amusement now & then between all the serious stuff at work.
I agree with you (gasp!) that the BCs are practically at war with the dalits in parts of TN. Long, long time ago, 2 dozen or so dalits were burned to death in their huts after all the exits had been blocked. This happened near my village and has passed into the village lore. There`s even a novel (in tamil) about the incident. BUT, how quickly you get the brahmins off the hook! They have provided (and continue to provide) the intellectual firmament on which all this caste bullshit is based. They may not burn the dalits physically but, to the brahmins, dalits are still untouchables to this day. The dehumanization of the dalits is the handiwork largely of the brahmins. It`s kind of like your intellectual justifications for the attacks on muslims in gujarat. You didn`t do it personally, but..
``To think that you actually have bred yourself!``
Am i now being accused of parthenogenesis?!
``Cretin!``
A most interesting sig. I see you use several different ones too..
#295 Posted by harimau on March 14, 2002 12:11:34 pm
Ref Tamil Rapist #: 309
[But i`m not going to use it to castigate people selectively because, you see, the whole system stinks and castists like you are a big part of it.]
No, no, no. I will not let you get away with this kind of general innuendo. The Thevar-Dalit violence was between Thevars and Dalits. You cannot drag Brahmins into that. Similarly, the violence against Dalits reported by Amnesty International was by owners of landed estates in Tirunelveli District, who certainly aren`t Brahmins. So take your casteism crap elsewhere.
What has happened is that you have been so brainwashed by the DMK propaganda that you will believe any crap put out by them. That is why you go around with a name like Tamil Arasan (Tamil King) whereas Karunanidhi`s great-nephew is named Kalanidhi (kala -Art, Nidhi - Treasure, Fund; both Sanskrit words). I can`t believe the kind of stupidity you and your ilk exhibit, nay, publicly flaunt and parade around. I also remember your kind of people who used to pay good money to EV Ramaswamy Naick for him to bestow the named Ravanswamy on their sons and Surpanakha on their daughters. You still probably don`t see the irony, so let me explain it in words of one syllable to you: the man who gave out names like Ravanswamy is named Ramaswamy which is a name he did not like as it was an Aryan name! This mofo who called Tamils barbarians and Tamil a barbaric language is regarded as the Father of Tamils by you and your ilk! And I remember he started a Self-Respect Movement. One would think that the first thing a Self-Respect Movement would do is to run EV Ramaswamy Naick out of town. No, you have so little intelligence and so little self-respect that you call him Periyar (Big Man) and Thanthai (Father). You have a great intellectual tradition to follow: that of Father Big Man, The Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader.
To think that you actually have bred yourself! In any decent society, people like you will be confined to asylums and prevented from having offspring.
Cretin!
[But i`m not going to use it to castigate people selectively because, you see, the whole system stinks and castists like you are a big part of it.]
No, no, no. I will not let you get away with this kind of general innuendo. The Thevar-Dalit violence was between Thevars and Dalits. You cannot drag Brahmins into that. Similarly, the violence against Dalits reported by Amnesty International was by owners of landed estates in Tirunelveli District, who certainly aren`t Brahmins. So take your casteism crap elsewhere.
What has happened is that you have been so brainwashed by the DMK propaganda that you will believe any crap put out by them. That is why you go around with a name like Tamil Arasan (Tamil King) whereas Karunanidhi`s great-nephew is named Kalanidhi (kala -Art, Nidhi - Treasure, Fund; both Sanskrit words). I can`t believe the kind of stupidity you and your ilk exhibit, nay, publicly flaunt and parade around. I also remember your kind of people who used to pay good money to EV Ramaswamy Naick for him to bestow the named Ravanswamy on their sons and Surpanakha on their daughters. You still probably don`t see the irony, so let me explain it in words of one syllable to you: the man who gave out names like Ravanswamy is named Ramaswamy which is a name he did not like as it was an Aryan name! This mofo who called Tamils barbarians and Tamil a barbaric language is regarded as the Father of Tamils by you and your ilk! And I remember he started a Self-Respect Movement. One would think that the first thing a Self-Respect Movement would do is to run EV Ramaswamy Naick out of town. No, you have so little intelligence and so little self-respect that you call him Periyar (Big Man) and Thanthai (Father). You have a great intellectual tradition to follow: that of Father Big Man, The Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader.
To think that you actually have bred yourself! In any decent society, people like you will be confined to asylums and prevented from having offspring.
Cretin!
#294 Posted by soysauce on March 14, 2002 3:27:52 am
unkalji,
That`s it? No ranting & raving this time? You disappoint me! Since you haven`t refuted it, i`ll assume that you`d be egging on the crowds had you happened to be in ahmedabad. Thank heavens for small mercies!
Now, since you barely appear to comprehend the stuff that you yourself post, the said incident occurred in `99. You want me to codemn it now? I`m quite aware of the raw deal that dalits have been getting in TN & elsewhere. But i`m not going to use it to castigate people selectively because, you see, the whole system stinks and castists like you are a big part of it.
That`s it? No ranting & raving this time? You disappoint me! Since you haven`t refuted it, i`ll assume that you`d be egging on the crowds had you happened to be in ahmedabad. Thank heavens for small mercies!
Now, since you barely appear to comprehend the stuff that you yourself post, the said incident occurred in `99. You want me to codemn it now? I`m quite aware of the raw deal that dalits have been getting in TN & elsewhere. But i`m not going to use it to castigate people selectively because, you see, the whole system stinks and castists like you are a big part of it.
#293 Posted by harimau on March 13, 2002 1:27:19 pm
Ref Tamil Rapist #: 307
I was asking you where was your outrage when three girls were burnt to death in a bus. Where was your outrage when the Hindu pilgrims were burnt at Godhra? But you are outraged when Hindus retaliate. Why? Answer that, thayoli!
I was asking you where was your outrage when three girls were burnt to death in a bus. Where was your outrage when the Hindu pilgrims were burnt at Godhra? But you are outraged when Hindus retaliate. Why? Answer that, thayoli!
#292 Posted by soysauce on March 11, 2002 5:12:50 pm
#306 unkalji
For someone who claims to have been misread, you surely thrash about making wild speculations. No matter. Carry on for it`s very entertaining. Just to see you burst forth with reams & reams of stuff in response to my calling you a raving lunatic, well, that just shows you what a terrific judge of characters i am. Maybe i should take that shrink`s place doubling your discomfort in the process...
Coming to the issue (if you even remember what it is), are you claiming now that you were not expostulating how the hindu reaction was expected and the govt could not have done anything, etc.? Your kind are one reason why justice is a distant dream in india. And you have the audacity to use the murder of dalits as some kind of feel-good thing. You`re beyond pathetic..
For someone who claims to have been misread, you surely thrash about making wild speculations. No matter. Carry on for it`s very entertaining. Just to see you burst forth with reams & reams of stuff in response to my calling you a raving lunatic, well, that just shows you what a terrific judge of characters i am. Maybe i should take that shrink`s place doubling your discomfort in the process...
Coming to the issue (if you even remember what it is), are you claiming now that you were not expostulating how the hindu reaction was expected and the govt could not have done anything, etc.? Your kind are one reason why justice is a distant dream in india. And you have the audacity to use the murder of dalits as some kind of feel-good thing. You`re beyond pathetic..
#291 Posted by harimau on March 10, 2002 11:19:33 am
Ref karuvattu-kuzhambu #: 305
I can understand you trying to pin the blame for the Gujarat riots on Hindus; I am sure you are wracking what passes for your brain to see if this can somehow be blamed on Brahmins because of your two decades of brainwashing in Tamil Nadu.
But where was your outrage when three college-going girl students were burnt to death inside a bus in Tamil Nadu by street thugs protesting the government?
As you follow the teachings of your Doctor Artist Leader to hate Brahmins and proclaim that there is no God -- mind you, this applies only to Hindu gods but Allah and jehovah are okay -- while he is picking your pockets, where is your outrage that his honorary doctorate from Annamalai University was purchased over the death of a student picked up from the hostel from several hundred protesters and beaten to death by the police to quell the protests, with the body burned by the police to hide their crime and the parents didn`t even have the chance to conduct a funeral for their son?
While that Champion of the Downtrodden, Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister Karunanidhi was in power, where was your outrage over the incident that resulted in the following report, particularly when his government killed Dalits?
[Police Killings In Tamil Nadu, India
Rights group urges immediate investigation
(New York, NY, August 6)— Human Rights Watch today condemned the latest in a string of brutal police attacks on the Dalit (``untouchable``) community in Tamil Nadu, India. The international monitoring organization urged the state government of Tamil Nadu to take immediate steps to investigate and prosecute members of the police and administration responsible for the killing of seventeen Dalit tea plantation workers in Tirunelveli district on July 23.
The victims, including two women and one child, were among those protesting labor conditions. Members of the police and reserve forces charged them with canes and pelted them with bricks and stones. As they attempted to escape, the police chased victims into Thamiraparani river where they subequently drowned.
In a letter sent today to the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Human Rights Watch said the state government should:
Take immediate steps to investigate and punish those responsible for the attack and provide full compensation to the victims` families.
Seek an immediate and fair resolution to the labor dispute that ensures workers their basic rights under national and international law.
Appoint an independent judicial body to investigate the role of the police and administration in recurring large-scale attacks on Dalit community members.
Enlist the assistance of the National Human Rights Commission in reviewing its procedures for deploying members of the reserve police during protests and in the aftermath of caste clashes.
The full text of the letter follows.
August 6, 1999
Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi
Chennai, Tamil Nadu
India
Dear Chief Minister Karunanidhi,
We write to express our deep concern about the brutal police action against Dalit plantation workers in Tirunelveli district on July 23 that resulted in the loss of seventeen lives. The victims, including two women and one child, were among those protesting labor conditions. Members of the police and reserve forces began charging them with their lathis and pelting them with bricks and stones. As they attempted to escape, the victims were followed by the police into Thamiraparani river and subsequently drowned. Several protestors, including political leaders, also suffered severe head injuries.
Human Rights Watch urges the government to take immediate steps to investigate and punish those responsible for the attack and provide full compensation to the victims` families. We also call on the government to seek an immediate and fair resolution to the labor dispute that ensures workers their basic rights under national and international law. Furthermore, with the help of India`s National Human Rights Commission, the government should review its procedures for deploying members of the reserve police during protests and in the aftermath of caste clashes. The attack is the latest in a string of police attacks on Dalit protestors and villagers in the past several years.
According to activists in the region, the majority Dalit plantation workers of Manjolai Estate work in deplorable conditions, with no benefits, for less than the legal wage. Any attempt to legally and peacefully demand their rights has been met with the arbitrary arrest of protestors and brutal attacks on union leaders. As you are aware, the protestors had marched to the collectorate to demand an early resolution of wage-related disputes, as well as the release of 652 estate workers who were imprisoned following a prior demonstration before the collectorate on June 8.
According to press reports and eyewitness accounts, the march was entirely peaceful and the police attack, which lasted thirty-five minutes, was unprovoked. Several members of the media, and those attempting to rescue the protestors, were also attacked and severely injured. Among those killed were a two-year-old child and his mother who was demanding the release of her husband.
Human Rights Watch`s own investigations have revealed a pattern of police brutality against Dalits during protests and during police raids on Dalit villages in the aftermath of caste clashes in Tamil Nadu`s southern districts. The deployment of hundreds of members of the Swift Action Force, the Tamil Nadu Special Police, the Striking Force and the Armed Reserve Police during such attacks has also been documented. The attacks have often resulted in large-scale destruction of property, severe injuries, and the loss of many lives. In addition to the one-man commission of inquiry appointed to investigate the Tirunelveli incident, a separate and independent judicial body should be appointed to investigate the role of the police and administration in recurring large-scale attacks on Dalit community members.
We thank you for your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to learning more about what your government has done to prosecute those responsible for the attack and to prevent its future occurrence.
Sincerely,
Sidney R. Jones
Executive Director, Asia Division
cc.: Prime Minister A. B. Vajpayee
President K. R. Narayanan
Justice M. N. Venkatachaliah, National Human Rights Commission
For Further Information:
Smita Narula, New York (212) 216-1253
Mike Jendrzejczyk, Washington, D.C. (202) 612-4341]
The only castes native to Tamil Nadu are the Pallans and the Paraiyans or those equally at the low end of the totem pole. The Chettiars claim to be related to the Shettys of Karnataka and the Seths of the North, the Reddys and Naidus are from Andhra and the Naickars are from Karnataka. Thus all of you calling yourselves Tamil Mani, Tamil King, Tamil Citizen are truly Rapists of Tamil Nadu. So why don`t you name your son Tamil Rapist?
As to your claim about bringing up your daughter without any prejudices, what you really mean is that you would be open-minded if she marries a White.
Pathetic a$$hole!
I can understand you trying to pin the blame for the Gujarat riots on Hindus; I am sure you are wracking what passes for your brain to see if this can somehow be blamed on Brahmins because of your two decades of brainwashing in Tamil Nadu.
But where was your outrage when three college-going girl students were burnt to death inside a bus in Tamil Nadu by street thugs protesting the government?
As you follow the teachings of your Doctor Artist Leader to hate Brahmins and proclaim that there is no God -- mind you, this applies only to Hindu gods but Allah and jehovah are okay -- while he is picking your pockets, where is your outrage that his honorary doctorate from Annamalai University was purchased over the death of a student picked up from the hostel from several hundred protesters and beaten to death by the police to quell the protests, with the body burned by the police to hide their crime and the parents didn`t even have the chance to conduct a funeral for their son?
While that Champion of the Downtrodden, Doctor Artist Leader Chief Minister Karunanidhi was in power, where was your outrage over the incident that resulted in the following report, particularly when his government killed Dalits?
[Police Killings In Tamil Nadu, India
Rights group urges immediate investigation
(New York, NY, August 6)— Human Rights Watch today condemned the latest in a string of brutal police attacks on the Dalit (``untouchable``) community in Tamil Nadu, India. The international monitoring organization urged the state government of Tamil Nadu to take immediate steps to investigate and prosecute members of the police and administration responsible for the killing of seventeen Dalit tea plantation workers in Tirunelveli district on July 23.
The victims, including two women and one child, were among those protesting labor conditions. Members of the police and reserve forces charged them with canes and pelted them with bricks and stones. As they attempted to escape, the police chased victims into Thamiraparani river where they subequently drowned.
In a letter sent today to the Chief Minister of Tamil Nadu, Human Rights Watch said the state government should:
Take immediate steps to investigate and punish those responsible for the attack and provide full compensation to the victims` families.
Seek an immediate and fair resolution to the labor dispute that ensures workers their basic rights under national and international law.
Appoint an independent judicial body to investigate the role of the police and administration in recurring large-scale attacks on Dalit community members.
Enlist the assistance of the National Human Rights Commission in reviewing its procedures for deploying members of the reserve police during protests and in the aftermath of caste clashes.
The full text of the letter follows.
August 6, 1999
Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi
Chennai, Tamil Nadu
India
Dear Chief Minister Karunanidhi,
We write to express our deep concern about the brutal police action against Dalit plantation workers in Tirunelveli district on July 23 that resulted in the loss of seventeen lives. The victims, including two women and one child, were among those protesting labor conditions. Members of the police and reserve forces began charging them with their lathis and pelting them with bricks and stones. As they attempted to escape, the victims were followed by the police into Thamiraparani river and subsequently drowned. Several protestors, including political leaders, also suffered severe head injuries.
Human Rights Watch urges the government to take immediate steps to investigate and punish those responsible for the attack and provide full compensation to the victims` families. We also call on the government to seek an immediate and fair resolution to the labor dispute that ensures workers their basic rights under national and international law. Furthermore, with the help of India`s National Human Rights Commission, the government should review its procedures for deploying members of the reserve police during protests and in the aftermath of caste clashes. The attack is the latest in a string of police attacks on Dalit protestors and villagers in the past several years.
According to activists in the region, the majority Dalit plantation workers of Manjolai Estate work in deplorable conditions, with no benefits, for less than the legal wage. Any attempt to legally and peacefully demand their rights has been met with the arbitrary arrest of protestors and brutal attacks on union leaders. As you are aware, the protestors had marched to the collectorate to demand an early resolution of wage-related disputes, as well as the release of 652 estate workers who were imprisoned following a prior demonstration before the collectorate on June 8.
According to press reports and eyewitness accounts, the march was entirely peaceful and the police attack, which lasted thirty-five minutes, was unprovoked. Several members of the media, and those attempting to rescue the protestors, were also attacked and severely injured. Among those killed were a two-year-old child and his mother who was demanding the release of her husband.
Human Rights Watch`s own investigations have revealed a pattern of police brutality against Dalits during protests and during police raids on Dalit villages in the aftermath of caste clashes in Tamil Nadu`s southern districts. The deployment of hundreds of members of the Swift Action Force, the Tamil Nadu Special Police, the Striking Force and the Armed Reserve Police during such attacks has also been documented. The attacks have often resulted in large-scale destruction of property, severe injuries, and the loss of many lives. In addition to the one-man commission of inquiry appointed to investigate the Tirunelveli incident, a separate and independent judicial body should be appointed to investigate the role of the police and administration in recurring large-scale attacks on Dalit community members.
We thank you for your prompt attention to this matter and look forward to learning more about what your government has done to prosecute those responsible for the attack and to prevent its future occurrence.
Sincerely,
Sidney R. Jones
Executive Director, Asia Division
cc.: Prime Minister A. B. Vajpayee
President K. R. Narayanan
Justice M. N. Venkatachaliah, National Human Rights Commission
For Further Information:
Smita Narula, New York (212) 216-1253
Mike Jendrzejczyk, Washington, D.C. (202) 612-4341]
The only castes native to Tamil Nadu are the Pallans and the Paraiyans or those equally at the low end of the totem pole. The Chettiars claim to be related to the Shettys of Karnataka and the Seths of the North, the Reddys and Naidus are from Andhra and the Naickars are from Karnataka. Thus all of you calling yourselves Tamil Mani, Tamil King, Tamil Citizen are truly Rapists of Tamil Nadu. So why don`t you name your son Tamil Rapist?
As to your claim about bringing up your daughter without any prejudices, what you really mean is that you would be open-minded if she marries a White.
Pathetic a$$hole!
#290 Posted by soysauce on March 8, 2002 1:35:54 pm
#291
Unkalji,
You`re a funny man. And a raving lunatic. Can you stay on the topic? What`s YOUR name? Harimou? Hehe..
Unkalji,
You`re a funny man. And a raving lunatic. Can you stay on the topic? What`s YOUR name? Harimou? Hehe..
#289 Posted by harimau on March 8, 2002 1:35:54 pm
Ref Raw-ulcers #: 294
I DO NOT AGREE with a single thing you have said in your post.
It is one thing to ask people to learn history, introspect, and vow never to do hateful things to others as I do.
It is quite another to ask someone to pay for the crimes of a previous generation as you do.
I DO NOT AGREE with a single thing you have said in your post.
It is one thing to ask people to learn history, introspect, and vow never to do hateful things to others as I do.
It is quite another to ask someone to pay for the crimes of a previous generation as you do.
#288 Posted by sigalph235 on March 8, 2002 3:39:21 am
re banjaraa 301
Hear, hear!!! HRH Queen Rania (for some reason she has not yet been made HM) is indeed a `Palestinian`. Goes to show, AGAIN, that the `Palestinians` already have a state: Jordan. How many states do these folks need?
Hear, hear!!! HRH Queen Rania (for some reason she has not yet been made HM) is indeed a `Palestinian`. Goes to show, AGAIN, that the `Palestinians` already have a state: Jordan. How many states do these folks need?
#287 Posted by veeresh on March 8, 2002 1:36:04 am
Romair/Roohi . . . ``Kala Shah Kala......Gorian noonh paranh karo....`` . . . yeah, I know what you mean, last car rally we had took a rest day in Manali and at the disco in Manali this was the number belting out, the best part is our goraa friends (who had been explained the meanings of the uhhhhm verse) were quite happy about the deal too.
Harimau . . . I say, what is your proprietory interest in TamBrahm maidens, usually with metres long silky tresses and coffee-milk complexion/skin? Share and share alike . . .
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