A Convert’s Complaint: Analyzing Naipaul’s Views on Islam

re: harimau

{{ How many Hindu interactors, in such a situation, would have called for the dismissal of the Gujarat government, the resignation of Vajpayee and the banning of the VHP because a Hindu mob initiated the riots? How many of the same interactors, particularly sadna, Rdesikan, rsridhar, Prem, and RSaxena, would have called on the Muslims to show restraint? }}

dude, understand what i`m saying before using my name in silly rhetorical questions...i`ve already used that analogy and obviously if a minority burned a bus of muslims in an Islamic country, there would be nary a sign of the minority left...BUT we are not some two-cent Islamic banana republic that we have to do the same thing....

....i know muslim barbarians started the riots...but letting mobs run wild doesn`t solve jackshit...it led to more deaths of hindus...it led to destruction of govt property...most importantly, it tarnished india`s image in the eyes of investors....

...the government should provide real justice to the victims of the train massacre by cracking down hard on the sundry anti-national muslim groups running amock in india, and having courts issue quick death sentences for the groups behind the train incident...(there are mofo mujahideen sitting in cells in kashmir who should be tried and hanged right away)....that`s real justice....

....you think running around on the streets killng random muslims is any consolation for victims` relatives?...

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DRUMZ

``In ur post u said how to NOT interpret scripture.``

Not entirely - we can apply historical and/or literary criticism to the texts - but as long as we are conscious that the language with which we apply our criticisms, in not necessarily, the language of the texts themselves, that is, that the ``meanings`` derived from revelation, either in time, place, situational or cultural context, are not necessarily, exclusively, in the language of scientism or psychology.

``I dont care what anyone else believes and im not trying to prove the validity of my approach.``

Of course not and I think I will not make the error to think that that is what you were doing. I am suggesting that this discussion is now part of the formulation of objective knowledge, with regard to revelatory texts and our evolving knowledge. No person I know of thinks exclusively in terms of science or psychology. As a matter of fact, a most persuasive argument can be made that our inate, primary, language is one that is a combination of the two. But even then, revelation is not packaged neatly in to ``facts`` and ``feelings``. Yes, I recognize this as a task, not necessarily prone to uniting adherents. And we cannot be oblivious to the operational meaning of the word ``pluralism`` in the world today. And of course we must remain conscious of the ``provisional`` nature our knowledge, that is why I had used the words arrogance and ignorance. This is a long way of saying I don`t know which is the best method to approach the understanding of Revelation - but I wanted you to understand why it is, that I cannot say which is best.

If I may bend your ear for a just a little while longer, it seems to me that we have been working ourselves in to asking ``what is Islam`` - the post modern condition gaurantees that we shall have a multitude of answers - and we shall once again be in the position of asking this question over again - I would like to suggest a possible answer, one which most will find reasonable: Islam is living practice of the community of the ``faithful``, a way of nurturing, cultivating, training our intelleigence and our feelings so that we may be ``guided`` (not emulate) by the Ethics of God, as expressed in his word, expressed in the Koran.

But then some may ask, ``What is Koran`` - and again, many answers will be ``discovered`` - again, a more meaningful answer, I submit, is that Koran is expression of the Ethics of God, Merciful, compassionate guidance to the ``faithful``.

re: Romair # 179

That was a good reply. In a lighter vein, chalo...at least you recognized grandpa Prithvi Raj. Must have made him happy wherever he is looking down on us from. It IS a bit odd not to acknowledge one`s grandparents, or worse, to claim somebody else`s grandparents for one`s own, just because papa changed his religion! :)

IMHO, If Pakistani government had a little more self-confidence, they could make a LOT of money. Most Pakistani artistes who visit India do pretty well.

And don`t complain. The only Rooh Afza I ever buy is Pakistani.

Ref Stuka #: 165

[Look, you`re right if you look at this situation in isolation. But any idiot new there would be riots after the train incident. It is the governmen`t job to deploy forces and fast.]

Since any idiot could have predicted there would be riots, why didn`t you call the concerned government officials and tell them in what cities and what localities and at what times the riots were going to occur? If nobody in the Government of Gujarat was willing to take your phone calls, why didn`t you call CNN so that they could have their camera crews on the spot ready to cover the riots?

I know your answer: you are not an idiot and that is why you couldn`t predict the riots!

[It takes the police 5 minutes to shoot into a crowd, kill a couple of rioters and stop a mob in it`s tracks.]

No; it takes more than that. It requires the authorization of the District Collector/Commissioner {Collector is the title more commonly used in the south and Commissioner seems to be the prevalent title in the north for the topmost district official) before the police can fire on a mob. And the police are never given blanket permission to fire on civilian crowds. They must report back on crowd behavior and seek firing orders. That is how you protect the civilians from police brutality.

Let me ask some of my rhetorical questions.

What would be the reaction of all the interactors, particularly Urstruly, Romair, Ali1 the Eunuch, and Mullah321 if a Hindu mob had attacked pilgrims returning from the Haj without any rhyme or reason? (We already know Urstruly`s reaction when he thought that Hindus had killed Muslims on the train.)

How many Hindu interactors, in such a situation, would have called for the dismissal of the Gujarat government, the resignation of Vajpayee and the banning of the VHP because a Hindu mob initiated the riots? How many of the same interactors, particularly sadna, Rdesikan, rsridhar, Prem, and RSaxena, would have called on the Muslims to show restraint?

How many Pakistanis would have called for the Indian Army`s intervention if more Hindus were being killed by Muslims than the other way around? How many of them would be hanging their heads down or beating their breasts about the savagery of the Muslims?

Re Rsridahar 159

No sir, I wasn`t questioning your sincerity. But the right way to pay respect to a great man is not by using some silly title but by trying to practice what was preached. in the same vein, shouldn`t you attaching the same appelation to jesus...which you did in a later reply, and by the same token shouldn`t you use pbuh in parens for the buddha, krishna, rama or any other god up there?

Ref Stuka #: 163

[I know you are saying this to be sarcastic, but you are way closer to the truth than u realize. A Muslim who is secure in his/her faith does not need to shove anything in your face.]

Is that why the Gyan Vapee mosque in Benares is cheek by jowl against the Vishwanath Temple?

[BTW, I see your point about Hindus not being able to identify the perps of Godhra and therefore taking it out on Muslims in general. By that logic, if I take an Uzi Sub Machine Gun, and kill a few dozen white people in the states, and then quietly fly out to India, u`re saying it`s okay for the white race to take it out on you, and your friends and family since we are same color and religion?]

What do you think the US is doing in Afghanistan? How many civilians have died in US bombings? Do you think that the woman who has lost her husband and sole provider is consoled by the fact that a ``smart bomb`` somehow went awry?

In our frenzy to shout down and insult the [The Muslims being killed had nothing to do with the people killed in the train. They are innocent people being killed because they are Muslim.]

True. Just like the Chinese and Koreans who bore the brunt of looting in LA had nothing to do with the fact that police beat up Rodney King, a black man, and white jury acquitted the police who were videotaped viciously beating Rodney King.

[That`s it. We are not answerable to the Ali#1`s of this world, but we are answerable to ourselves, and our government is answerable to ALL Indian citizens. If you believe that this rioting is correct, then you are as Anti Indian as Ali#1, actually more, because he ain`t even Indian.]

True. But the veneer of civilization is about as thick (or as thin, depending on your viewpoint) in India as in the US. So let EVERYONE realize the need for restraint and civilized bahavior. When you break through that veneer, there is sheer savagery that cannot be controlled before it runs its course or unless massively brutal force is applied. The political leaders have to make the choice of what the fine balance between the two is. You and I can argue about it all we want. The price will be paid by the politicians in the next elections. If they had intervened (if they were able to mobilize forces within hours) with massive show of force, maybe they would have stopped the violence in Ahmedabad. But if that were the case, you can be sure that the Hindus would have voted out the government for its ``one-sided`` approach to the problem. If the bloodletting had continued for two to three weeks, even the most rabid Hindus, finding that there was a threat to their homes and lives by Muslim mobs that regrouped to fight back, would have voted the government out. So the politicians do sacrifice the common man in order to feather their own nests. So, what else is new?

You and I have nothing to lose by pontificating.

{{So, for example, the virgins who are supposedly awaiting good Islamic martyrs as their reward in paradise are in reality ``white raisins`` of crystal clarity rather than fair maidens.}}

hmmm...seems like some guys are reeeaaaly going to appreciate the meaning of the phrase KLPD....

Tahmad - I should have probably mentioned some others on Chowk as well (dost-mittar, Stuka come to mind at the spur of the moment -I apologize to those I`ve missed :) - perhaps the trend will move toward a more thoughtful series of interacts ... here`s hoping!!

Thanks for the info RSridhar - much appreciated. Very interesting stuff, especially in light of Rehan Ansari`s post.

Ref rsridhar #: 162

[By your logic, at least a few hundred muslims in US should have been taught the same lesson that was taught the Gujarat muslims. Close to 10000 people died in the twin tower carnage.]

The number is 2830.

[How did US react? It was shocked. It debated endlessly and tried to understand the minds of the villains. It also made the important distinction between religion and bigotry. There was no backlash. Every American respected rule of law.]

And two ruffians walked into a gas station in Phoenix and shot dead the Sikh owner. Sikhs in Long Island had signs on their store windows proclaiming themselves to be Sikhs, not Muslims, loyal to the US.

[By avenging the death of kar sevaks, the hindu mob (most likely VHP inspired)has taken law into its own hands and thereby set a bad precedent.

This is not good for democracy.]

This has nothing to do with democracy. The very word `democracy` means rule of the people. But it has everything to do with respect for law. The fact is that not one or two murders at random were committed for people to wait in silence for the police to arrive and arrest the murderers. It was a murderous mob that specifically targeted one segment of society on the basis of its religion. The murder of those on the train were as gruesome as the deaths by fire of the dead of Ahmedabad. What you gor in Ahmedabad was retaliation for Godhra.

Let us all admit that in economic and social development, India today is probably similar to thethe 1880`s USA. Economically, it probably is worse. Do you think mobs in the US did not string up thieves and murderers at that time?

Have some fair basis before you start comparing US and Western Europe of 2001 with India.

Romair,

{{If you visit Pakistan, you will notice that Pakistanis have completely accepted Indian movies, vidoes, TV, actors, actresses, magazines. These nearly put Pakistani industries out of business. There are localities in Pakistan with literally hundreds of Indian video shops, where even propoganda based anti-Pakistan films like Mission Kashmir, Pukar, Border do booming business. I have seen all of them. You can go to Fortress stadium in Lahore, and listen to AR Rahman`s version of Vande-Matram, Made in India and other songs booming on car stereos.}}

Having sampled a couple of hindi films; I must say you Pakistanis are completely crazy!!:)

But what you say is interesting. Youre right--we werent exposed to anything Pakistani, when I was in India. My first exposure was Radio Pakistan--boy did they trash India & hindus!

In the 70s; when Bombayites were introduced to tv, we used to get Karachi tv, when Doordarshan ended. After that I was firmly convinced that Pakistanis did`nt have a SINGLE good thing to say about India!

Just out of curiosity; how come Junoon & Noor Jehan have performed in India, but Lata Mangeshkar or other Indian artists have not performed in Pakistan?--or have they? Is the problem from the Indian or Pakistani side?

From the Onion

-----

NEW YORK — At a press conference Monday, American Civil Liberties Union officials announced that the organization will go to court to defend a neo-Nazi group`s right to burn down ACLU headquarters.

ACLU president Nadine Strossen told reporters that her organization intends to ``vigorously and passionately defend`` the Georgia chapter of the American Nazi Party`s First Amendment right to freely express its hatred of the ACLU by setting its New York office ablaze on Nov. 25.

``I am reminded of the words of Voltaire: `I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,``` Strossen said. ``While the ACLU vehemently disagrees with the idea of Nazis torching this building, the principle of freedom of expression must be supported in all cases. If we take away these Nazis` right to burn down our headquarters, we take away everyone`s right to burn down our headquarters.``

Buddy Carver, president of the Georgia chapter of the American Nazi Party, praised the ACLU for taking on his case. ``I would like to thank Ms. Strossen and all the other nigger-loving bleeding-heart liberals at the `ACL-Jew` for defending my constitutional right to express my loathing of them with hundred-foot-high flames,`` said Carver, sporting a tan uniform and swastika arm band. ``We must finish the job Hitler was unable to.``

ACLU associate director Mel Rosenblatt agreed. ``The real danger here is not the American Nazi Party,`` he said. ``The real danger here is what would happen to the rest of us if the Buddy Carvers of this world were not allowed to commit arson against nigger-loving, bleeding-heart-liberal Jew attorneys.``

Making the case all the more controversial is the neo-Nazis` demand that the ACLU`s entire 315-person staff be in the building at the time of the blaze. Strongly opposing the request are New York City police commissioner William Bratton, fire chief Ed Holm and mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who said that all 315 will die if trapped in the 47-story building during the blaze. ACLU attorneys responded that they will request a federal appeals hearing if the City of New York attempts to stop them and their fellow ACLU employees from perishing in the Nov. 25 blaze.

``Yes, my loving wife Linda and three wonderful children, Ben, Robby and Stephanie, will be devastated when I am killed next month,`` ACLU attorney Harvey Gross said. ``But I recognize that, in a very real sense, it would be a victory for Mr. Carver and his fellow hatemongers if I did not burn to death, because their terrible message of bigotry and intolerance would be all the more effective if suppressed.``

The Carver case is one of several controversial legal battles with which the ACLU has been involved this judicial year. In State of California v. Tubbs, the organization defended the right of a San Francisco art gallery to display a piece of performance art in which innocent passersby are shot to death by gunmen. In February, the ACLU went to U.S. Appeals Court to defend the Grand Wizard of the Coahoma County, Mississippi, chapter of the Ku Klux Klan`s right to beat a black man to death and spray-paint `White Pride` across his chest.

``We can have no arbitrary setting of limits when it comes to the Bill of Rights,`` Strossen said. ``The Constitution does not say, `You have the right to express these opinions, but not those opinions.` Nor does it say, `You can express these opinions by word, but not by violence.` For a free society to work, hatred, in all its forms, must be encouraged.``

re: stuka

{{Ofcourse, the issues of personal preference do come in. I would any day prefer to meet someone from Lahore/Rawalpindi rather than Karachi/Quetta, just as u would probably prefer to meet a Punjabi Indian over a a Gujju or a Gult.}}

yes, you have to choose your indian carefully...if you want a date, stick with parsi chicks...if you need to have someone beaten up, make a sikh friend...if you need to start a business and shrewdly swindle some money, find a sindhi or gujju...if you need help with a quantum mechanics problem, go to your south indian friend...if you want a wild party, get a Goan...

Hobby: Peace. Agree with the creation aspect of thought-speak-writing. The Biblical verse was originally egyptian and ``in the beginning`` is scientific fact as word is vibrational energy.

In ur post u said how to NOT interpret scripture. Then how? Here`s my technique. If it appeals to my soul, i consider it true (relevant to time) and live by it. I dont care if its scientific or whatever, nor does it matter who the messenger is. I dont care what anyone else believes and im not trying to prove the validity of my approach. What are ur thoughts on this?

Pankaj:

Isn`t it just great? Not one has come out and said that Islam is a religion of peace after the attack on the train at Godhra.

(Sadna: hint, hint)