Memories of December 6th

Romair #93:

…first off...i hope you will not respond with 5000 word treatises to each response/view of mine…(hey ras…am counting on your sense of humour plea!)

[…Lets state, for the sake or stopping mud throwing, that Pakistan is a far inferior nation to India, and India is superior…}

---vehemently disagree!…rewording badly needed…would agree whole heartedly if you say there are good and bad pakistanis just as there are good and bad indians… or something along those lines...


[…For starters, Indians, at least educated ones, need to stop supporting the RSSs and BJPs of the world…]

---again disagree…for this simple reason…if the indian voters can ELECT them they also can banish them to the dustbin in a following election…a luxury we do not cherish, marvel or tolerate this side of the radcliffe line…

…and while I have your attention…

...traditionally...i don’t know how else to describe this…gujrat has been a hotbed of communalism and hindu-muslim riots since partition/independence…BUT one has to marbvel…the communal tensions were at a minimal during the present bjp state rule…alas!…things have changed in the past few days!

rgds,

t


ps: i know you specifically asked for an indian feed back...would you forgive me?

Reply # 71 harimau

[How about the fact that 60+ Hindu pilgrims were burnt to death by Islamic thugs in a train and that this is retribution for that? Or is it that the Islamic thugs were following Al-Kitab]

Hindu pilgrims??? Karsevaks who travel to demolish mosques are hindu pilgrims?? Is that the definition of pilgrimage in your pagan religion? Lets see: ``Hindu Pilgrim: A person who undertakes a journey to demolish places of worship of other religions, or to burn alive, kill, injure or maim followers of other religions, and to loot and burn their properties.`` Can you give us the Sanskrit version from vedas, or manu smitri or kok shastar or another one of your scriptures?

[You can be pretty sure that more Muslims just because of the population ratio between Hindus and Muslims will be killed (we can assemble more, bigger mobs than you can) and you can take perverse pleasure in that.]

It is not the population ratio, it is the active support of police and other LEAs that enables you hindu thugs to kill more muslims. Keep your putrid lies to yourself please, there are no Hindu and Muslim mobs fighting each other, only Hindu mobs attacking Muslims and their properties with support from the police.

You are the only sicko on this website who is keeping the ``score`` and gloating over the higher number of muslim casualties. However, I am sure Bagpipe and rest of the Sangh Parawaris are doing the same too.

Check out how despicable man can become when blinded by the ideas of religious differences and vengeance:



When `gentlemen` in cars turn looters

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ FRIDAY, MARCH 01, 2002 12:23:01 AM ]



ADODARA: It was a day when sober `gentlemen` turned looters and got a thrill from looting shops and setting them afire. A common sight in areas like Gotri, Ellora Park, Manjalpur here was of mobs breaking open shops owned by members of the minority community.

Thursday, a day of bandh, turned out to be a `profitable` one for looters who had a field day escaping with bounty.

After loot, its furniture was set on fire. To ensure that Hindu families living on the upper floors were not hurt, the goods were taken out and burnt on the road. At many places, the shops were burnt fully.

VHP activists were patrolling almost all areas ensuring that `all went well with the shop looting`.

At Manjalpur, a mob attacked shops at the Saraswati complex and broke open a shoe shop. This was followed by frantic rush to loot the shop, while some ran away with the loot, others were more intent on setting them afire.

``I am not interested in these shoes, it`s better to set them on fire``, said one as he lighted a pile of shoe boxes. At shops in Ellora Park and Gotri mobs broke open shops and left onlookers to loot them.

Even those who came in cars were looting a shop. ``Better get the right size, and rush up`` was what a motorist told his friend who joined the crowds in looting a shoe shop in the Manjalpur area.

At Makarpura, a dry cleaner`s shop was set on fire along with several others near it. ``These VHP guys are crazy, the shop might belong to a Muslim but the clothes are ours (Hindus),`` said an anxious onlooker.

``This is our 25th call. We have received calls for similar incidents of fire in shops from areas like Sama, Navayard, Harinagar, Gotri village and beyond``, said Waduwadi fire station officer Hitesh Taparia. The fire men were on duty from Wednesday night when the first call came after 7.30 pm, he added.

According to a fireman, his day began at 8 am and at 4pm he was still putting out flames. He said that a common scenario was that shops, go-downs and vehicles (especially tempos and autorickshaws) were on fire.

re: Romair # 93

Romair, I agree with some of the things you mentioned but not with others. Overall, your point is well-taken: it is quite silly for Indians to obsess with the goings on in Pakistan. They have to address issues in their country. The same logic holds good for Pakistanis.

Rest assured, Pakistanis are not any ``stupider`` than Indians, nor is Pakistan an ``inferior`` nation. Ofcourse, neither are they any more ``martial`` or ``Pak`` than Indians. We all are just what we are :)

re: Romair # 93

Romair, I agree with some of the things you mentioned but not with others. Overall, your point is well-taken: it is quite silly for Indians to obsess with the goings on in Pakistan. They have to address issues in their country. The same logic holds good for Pakistanis.

Rest assured, Pakistanis are not any ``stupider`` than Indians, nor is Pakistan an ``inferior`` nation. Ofcourse, neither are they any more ``martial`` or ``Pak`` than Indians. We all are just what we are :)

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Ref Romair #: 93

[People talk of the dangers of religious extremism in Pakistan. I think the situation in Pakistan is far less dangerous than that in India. The religious extremists in Pakistan have very little social support. They will not be able to last too long. In India, they are ruling the country. In Pakistan, certain individuals have to be controlled. In India, a mindset has to change. The later is much more difficult.]

Let us see. Mullahs call for volunteers to go fight The Great Satan aka Uncle Sam in Afghanistan and thousands cross over into Afghanistan. If an extremist leader in Tamil Nadu calls for supporting their fellow Hindus and Tamilians in Sri Lanks, he wouldn`t get 3 men to volunteer. Guess where extremists have little political or social support, where mindsets have to change.

Ref ali1 #: 91

[And please, we dont ``hate`` you; we consider you vermin, yes, like rats, snakes and other pests are considered vermin, but we don`t hate you like we don`t hate rats or snakes. You have to be human to qualify for our hatred.]

Ref ali1 #66

[Has happened before, will happen again, and again and again and again, until this pagan rat- worshipping society is reformed or the pagan Hindu religion is completely wiped out.]

Considering that previous attempts to eliminate the pagan Hindu religion resulted in the conversion of vermin-like Hindus into Muslims, what do you think that makes you? Do you consider yourself to have descended from rats, snakes, cockroaches, mice, bandicoots, mosquitoes, flies, or dung beetles? Do you maintain a genealogy in your household? Does that identify the exact type of insect or vermin your forefathers were?

What I had said in Reply #10 was in jest.
It appears that this monster of hate in the form of the Temple/Masjid issue is revisiting us with
deadly force, this time in Gujrat these days.
It has to be stopped immediately or it will engulf the rest of India also.

Muslims and Hindus have to set some general guidelines as to what they can do with the site.
Maybe leave it as is, a reminder of what hate can do to a people?

Fazana I see is laying a little low this time.
I do not blame her. A Indian Muslim friend who by the way is also a very patriotic Indian told me that the town in India where he came from had never had a communal problem. Then the Babri Masjid was destroyed. He went home the following year to discover that several corpses of Muslim youth had been found in the creek (Nulla) that went through his town in the days of rioting that followed.
We need to raise a collective cry for sanity to prevail in the region. Hindu-Muslim, Shia-Sunni
Bakra-Dumba etc.. Let us learn to live in peace and try to resolve issues such as Kashmir in peace.

Ras

Lets state, for the sake or stopping mud throwing, that Pakistan is a far inferior nation to India, and India is superior. Now that we have that out of the way, I would be interested in any opinions from Indians, on what they think may happen after the Mar 15 date of the mandir construction, and whether India is close to hitting its social rock bottom (and if any of the statements I have made in this reply are incorrect):

The current violence in India is tragic. At the same time it was bound to happen. I had written in a reply to another article that the UP elections and Mar 15 would be two watershed points for the Indian society. India passed the UP test. Will it pass the mandir test?

There are many differences between religious violence in India and in Pakistan. I don`t think it is in the Indians` interests to try to project everything onto Pakistan, or to state that it happens in Pakistan also. It may make Indians feel better, but that will not solve India`s own problems. What is needed is some introspection.

For starters, Indians, at least educated ones, need to stop supporting the RSSs and BJPs of the world. The fact that a party like the BJP could get elected in any country should scare people. According to their manifesto they are somewhere in between JUI and Sipah-e-Sahaba of Pakistan. If a party states on the first page of its manifesto that it will tear down a mosque, then obviously it will. And if it states on the first line of its manifesto that it is a member of the RSS, then it is. Should such parties be defended, just because one hates Pakistan, or should they be criticized.

The second point is for Indians to understand that religious riots in India will have far more intensity than those in Pakistan. Pakistan does not have any large minority populations. And the minority populations that do exist in Pakistan, have been targeted with legal and political persecution, but rarely with violent social persecution (most of the religious violence and deaths in Pakistan is between Muslim sects).

India, with its gigantic Muslim (and Christian and Sikh) populations is much more vulnerable to religious riots. They can grow much more intense than those in Pakistan, due to the factors described above. While the multi-religious population of India points towards its diversity, it also points towards a ticking time bomb if the BJPs of the world are running India.

If is quite possible that a BJP in the opposition will be more ruthless than a BJP in power. Primarily because while in power, it had to cater to many different coalition powers. Hence it still has not been able to implement its manifesto. But in opposition, it could become a bigger troublemaker.

The one advantage of Pakistan hitting rock bottom at the end of the NS term, was that it resulted in a lot of introspection. The speed with which Pakistan has made changes is unprecendented in present day world. Can anyone name one country that is changing so quickly? While the Pakistani cynics will continue to criticize anything they don`t like, even if it is good for Pakistan(including their dislike for Musharraf), the fact is that Pakistan is much better off now than two years ago. And it is pointed in the right direction in all areas.

I think the day the VHP goes and starts building the Ram Mandir, will be equivalent to the day NS was kicked out in Pakistan. Three things could happen 1)attempts will be made to stop the construction by Muslims and there will be violence 2) Muslims will be too scared to stop the construction, and no violence will occur 3) Hindus will try to stop the contruction. The first two are negatives. Only the third is positive.

People talk of the dangers of religious extremism in Pakistan. I think the situation in Pakistan is far less dangerous than that in India. The religious extremists in Pakistan have very little social support. They will not be able to last too long. In India, they are ruling the country. In Pakistan, certain individuals have to be controlled. In India, a mindset has to change. The later is much more difficult.

Perhaps Indians never reached the rock bottom stage and thus never had to introspect. But now I think they must, otherwise they could end up in a perpetual cycle of religious violence (a cycle that Pakistan could have ended up in, had it not hit rock bottom). And Pakistan will be effected also.

An India that his a million men parked on the Pakistani border for no reason, the biggest deployment of troops in the world in its only Muslim province, a potential internal powder keg of religious violence waiting to happen on Mar. 15, a military budget going through the roof for no reason, and an extremist party running the country, has, in my opinion, is not following its Gandhian way of life.

The future of South Asia is being decided by two men: Advani and Fernandes. The former is responsible for taking 2000 of his own citizens to death in the Babri Mosque incidence. The later sold out his own soldiers in the tehelka scam. They are at least as bad as BB and NS. Yet one hears very little criticism of these two men, on this site. Do we want these two people deciding the future of South Asia?

Instead of looking at the dislike of Pakistan that is apparent in the Indian press, Indians need to look at the changes that are taking place in Pakistan. India, in my opinion, needs a similar change in direction. This will mean an admittance of its problems, rather than a defence of the problems.

The replies to this reply I think will be indication of whether Indians indulge in introspection on this site, or just to defend themselves against Pakistani criticism. As long as something is based on facts, it should be accpeted. If I have made non-factual statements, then kindly point out the facts.

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Reply # 67 sadna

[Its inhuman attitudes like yours which make me happy we let you go.]

We paid with our blood for our freedom from you and the likes of you. Aapne hamaray baap per koi ehsan kiya tha kya by ``letting us go``? We too are happy for not being at the mercy of Hindu thugs like Bagpipe, Advani, Modi or Police Commissioner Pande and happy not to be roasted alive with ex-MLA Ehsan Jefri and his 12 children (or like Graham Staines and his children).

[There were people killed yesterday, including women and children, where were your tears then? At least 116 Indians have been allowed to die in communal violence, thats whats important, Pakistan`s hatred of Indians is totally irrelevant.]

No one deserves your taunts for lack of humanity better than Mr. P.C. Pandey, the police commissioner of Ahmadabad who thinks that the burning alive of 38 innocent Muslims is an ``unfortunate incident`` where as the burning alive of karsevak thugs is ``terrorism``.

And please, we dont ``hate`` you; we consider you vermin, yes, like rats, snakes and other pests are considered vermin, but we don`t hate you like we don`t hate rats or snakes. You have to be human to qualify for our hatred.

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All you folks in India, please do everything you can to demand justice is brought to the persons responsible (on all sides) for all the violence in Gujarat - for the sake of the innocent kids lost ... and if you`re in any sensitive spots - stay safe.

I can`t take this awful news anymore so I`m going to take my Mum`s advice (Beta, we`re not meant to cycle the bad news of the entire planet through our system everyday) and switch off for a while ... can`t help but think of those kids when I look at my 2 and 3 yr old though ...

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