Memories of December 6th

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I try to be respectful of religion - all religion - but at times it disgusts me, completely, utterly...what a depressing day...

Why did God, if he/she/it exists, create religion when (s)he didn`t give human beings the brains to deal with this lethal instrument?

Ref ali1 #: 66

[Secularism at work in the Hindu Republic of India.

Police: Hindu Mob Kills 38 Muslims]

Did you get a lobotomy somewhere? How about the fact that 60+ Hindu pilgrims were burnt to death by Islamic thugs in a train and that this is retribution for that? Or is it that the Islamic thugs were following Al-Kitab where it says to kill the infidels and the idolaters but Hindus are not enjoined by their Scriptures to kill non-Hindus?

You can be pretty sure that more Muslims just because of the population ratio between Hindus and Muslims will be killed (we can assemble more, bigger mobs than you can) and you can take perverse pleasure in that.

Farzana Versey:

Gujarat maa 60 nirdosh hinduo ne muslimo na tola e jivtaa baali naakhya chhe. Tamare te vishe kai kehvu chhe? Aaama pan dosh to VHP noj chhe, right?

Koi tikka tippani? Tamara vichaar sambhalva maate ame badha raah joi rahya chhiye.

Tame ahinya padharsho, jara jaldi?

Tamaro Fan,

Satyavadi

ali1 #66
Its inhuman attitudes like yours which make me happy we let you go. There were people killed yesterday, including women and children, where were your tears then?
At least 116 Indians have been allowed to die in communal violence, thats whats important, Pakistan`s hatred of Indians is totally irrelevant.

Secularism at work in the Hindu Republic of India.

Police: Hindu Mob Kills 38 Muslims

Thu Feb 28,10:40 AM ET

AHMADABAD, India (AP) - A crowd of Hindus set fire to Muslim homes Thursday and burned to death 38 people inside, 12 of them children, amid riots in retaliation for a Muslim attack on a train, police said.

Some 2,000 rioters stoned six Muslim-owned bungalows in a mostly Hindu neighborhood of Ahmadabad, then poured kerocene on them and set them ablaze, said P.B. Gondya, the deputy commissioner of police.

``We have taken out 18 bodies,`` Joint Commissioner of Police M.K. Tandon told The Associated Press.

He said officers saw the bodies of 12 children and 10 adults still lying inside the smoldering remains of the homes in Ahmadabad`s Meghaninagar neighborhood.

The deaths brought the toll in rioting throughout western Gujarat state on Thursday to at least 58 as Hindus attacked Muslims in retaliation for a Muslim attack on a train Wednesday, in which 58 people died, most of them Hindus.

Police were alerted to the Meghaninagar fires by the calls of a former Parliament member who lived in one of the burning homes. But it took police two hours — and fire fighters six hours — to get to the site because of road blockades set up by Hindu rioters in Ahmadabad, police said.

``This happened due to mob violence and our men could not reach there on time. This is not an excuse but it is an extremely unfortunate incident,`` said Ahmadabad Police Commissioner P.C. Pandey.

Police said the former parliamentarian, Ehsan Jefri, fired a gun into the air when some 200 Hindus gathered around the Muslim homes, trying to disperse them. The crowd then swelled and attacked the houses. Jefri was among the dead, police said.

Rioters set fire to more than 50 buildings in Ahmadabad, most of them Muslim-owned. Hindu gangs also rioted in more than two dozen other towns in Gujarat state amid a strike called to protest Wednesday`s train attack.



NOTE:

``But it took police two hours — and fire fighters six hours — to get to the site because of road blockades set up by Hindu rioters in Ahmadabad, police said.``

So typical and predictable.... Police arrives to give a safe escort to Hindu roiters after they have completed their job. Fire fighters arrive after everything has burnt down to ground.

``This happened due to mob violence and our men could not reach there on time. This is not an excuse but it is an extremely unfortunate incident,`` said Ahmadabad Police Commissioner P.C. Pandey.

Sure Pandey Sahab. Burning alive of 38 innocent muslims is an ``unfortunate incident``, burning alive of Karsevak terrorists is ``terrorism``.

The only reason that this ``unfortunate incident`` has even been acknowledged is because an ex MLA Ehsan Jefri was killed. Otherwise it would have been an ``unsubtantiated rumor``.



Rest in peace Ehsan Jefri. I hope you enjoyed being burnt to death by your ``secular``, ``peaceful`` and ``tolerant`` Hindu neighbors.



This one takes the cake:

[The chief minister said the people have excercised restraint. ``I believe that the reaction of the people is that of restraint compared to what the terrorists did in Godhra, which was clearly a terrorist attack on innocent train passengers``.]

http://www.timesofindia.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=2371606

Burnig alive 38 muslims, stabbing numerous others and burning/looting their properties is a demonstration of Hindu restraint.

[Union Home Minister L K Advani has said that he was in constant touch with Gujarat Chief Minister Narendra Modi]

I bet both these mofos are planning on how to maximize the punishment inflicted on muslims.

I bet there will be a replay of this show of ``restraint`` and ``tolerance`` all over the Hindu Repulic of India come Friday. Hindu thugs all over the country will go on rampage, to kill and burn Indian muslims and their properties. The religion obsessed Hindu police and paramilitary forces will either assist in the pillage in Muslim dominated areas or conviniently arrive late in Hindu dominated areas.

Has happened before, will happen again, and again and again and again, until this pagan rat- worshipping society is reformed or the pagan Hindu religion is completely wiped out.

Farzana, can you please explain to me in a paragraph what you are trying to convey in your article. That I will be able to get into a discussion. Right now, I don`t whether I should agree with you or disagree.

Farzana Versey:

Gujarat maa 60 nirdosh hinduo ne muslimo na tola e jivtaa baali naakhya chhe. Tamare te vishe kai kehvu chhe? Aaama pan dosh to VHP noj chhe, right?

Koi tikka tippani? Tamara vichaar sambhalva maate ame badha raah joi rahya chhiye.

Tame ahinya padharsho, jara jaldi?

Tamaro Fan,

Satyavadi

harimau #61
Its getting really boring being cast as genocidal by Farzana by virtue of being Hindu or as an `handwringing apologist` by you for not being as venomous about Muslims as you demand. You have a problem you solve it.
btw, you are no different from your brethren across the border who use terms like uppity or a concubine or hermaphrodite(or something) for not falling in line as THEY demand. My advice to you is scratch your own dirty itches and donot bother sending me your obituaries.

Why is no one talking about the massacre in Gujarat? Specially Farzana?

Ref Urstruly #: 9

[This is terrible. I think the next holocaust of Indian Muslims is just around the corner-may be just hours away now. Today the NPR news reported that about 55 Hindu religious nuts were burned alive when the explosives they were carrying to the site of Babri Mosque exploded in a train near Gujrat. And of course it happened when they were exchanging insults with Muslims at Godhra railway station.

May Allah save you all from the tyrrany of these immoral, senseless murderers. Amen.]

Now that the truth is out, that the train was set aflame by Islamic thugs, Mullah Urstruly has gone into hiding. He has no bad words to say about the thugs who killed 60+ innocent pilgrims including women and children. However, let us not forget that this has been the history of Islamic thuggery for centuries.

I don`t see any of those who are shedding crocodile tears for the Kashmiri Muslims who are killed, maimed, raped (you must be seeing too many Bollywood movies to fantasize about rape all the time) saying one thing unkind about the Islamic thugs who set the train afire. Presumably, they were doing Allah`s will.

It is one thing for minorities to assert their rights, which I will defend; but it is quite another thing to cause deaths and property damage. Why was this done? Who was the mullah who instigated this? From which mosque was this idea propagated? That is what I would like to know.

Sadna, I don`t want your hand-wringing apology such as: how do you know it was done by a mullah? how do you know it was propagated in a mosque? I know you are ready with such questions, ahead of Mullah321.

Urstruly #49: ``I think I was only conned into believing that like rest of the Paksitan, after Supreme court’s decision and all.``

I don`t think you were conned. You just made an incorrect statement. I certainly wasn`t conned, and I don` think the rest of Pakistan was either. Everyone knows he never stated he would leave. This was debated endlessly in the Pakistani press. Some said he should leave, some said he shouldn`t. But generally everyone agreed that he never said he would.

``does it give him a right to sit on our head like a dictator? Yaar this is Hindu logic, the baysharam logic.``

Actually South Indians are the amongst the most logical people I have ever met (they are only illogical when it involves national policy, spefically human rights in Kashmir).

I agree that dictators, over all, are a negative thing. That is the whole point I am making. NS and BB and Musharraf are dictators. Take your pick. As I stated in my reply, we only have a choice between dictators. If there are any other electable candidates, I am all for it. There will be now, since BB and NS will be disqualified.

``These issues are settled under constitution. Only an elected body has a right to change that.``

This is correct also. However, just for the sake of argument, suppose a body is elected through rigged elections. Suppose it storms the Supreme Court when it will rule against it? Should that body also have a right to amend Constitutions?

``“The courts being put in place are actually not military courts. …….. I cannot imagine you or I ever ending up in one of them.”

``This is the most dishonest and selfish argument I ever heard,``

Actually, you only quoted two lines from my reply. So perhaps you are the one being dishonest. In future, kindly quote my whole reply, rather than a few lines, to twist my argument. My complete reply included the following:

``The courts being put in place are actually not military courts. The only pure military courts suggested were by Nawaz Sharif, for terrorism. ....The current courts will have one military judge and two civilian judges.....Whether their positive points outweigh their negative points is a separate debate. But once again, the Supreme Court has to clear them and the Supreme Court has once again decided to put them on hold. And the govt. is complying. I personally don`t think such courts are necessary.``

Please read the last line. It states my opinion on this issue, i.e. I personally don`t think such courts are necessary. Since you are prone to talk about the military and military action often, you should know that pure military courts never have any civilian judges. The only judges and jury come from the JAG branch of the military, and serving officers of the military.

``Will this so called ally help us protect ourselves if India attacks? Will it lend us some of its Stealths, Smart Bombs, and F-16s to fight Hindu aggression? Will it lend us a couple of aircraft carriers in case we go on war with India since we lended it our facilities? Yaar for heaven’s sake if god has given you Aqal, why you use it to misguide people?``

The point I made was that the USA was an ally in the war against the Taliban. Are you suggesting this is not true? Was the US actually fighting Pakistan in this war? Did I miss something.

I did not say that the USA would help Pakistan fight India. I stated that the upgrading of facilities with US help, would strengthen Pakistan against India. And the US has upgraded these facilities for its own use, which will eventually be used by Pakistan.

``Yak nah shudd do shudd, Are we a soverign country? Or men in Khaki have exchanged it for chohaaraas and gurr?``

Have you ever been a man in Khaki? Any country that is facing a much larger enemy, like India, must form alliances. You seem to belive in the Qazi Hussein philosophy: never fight yourself, but criticizise and recruit others for fighting and then tell them that God is on their side so they don`t need any alliances. Forming alliances with China is one the strongest aspects of Pakistan`s defence policy. This does not mean Pakistan has given up its soveriegnity. Considering the fact that Pakistan`s entire Air Force is dependent on China, it makes good sense to rely on China. Unless of course, you have come up with some magical potion which you can use against Pakistan`s enemies.

``Yes I can cite two examples: Koreas and Vietnam where Americans went in to “help” local rulers as and ended up dividing their countries and committed worst acts of genocide in recorded history. Koreans were not as lucky as Vietnamies.``

Comparing giving Jacobabad airfield to Americans, and Vietnam and Korea are two completely different things. Are you seriously suggesting that Americans will break up Pakistan because they are using Jacobabad airfield. If you get a chance, please visit Jacobabad airfield someday. Then make your point.

``Even the most fascist of the democratic government and the worst possible law has a maximum life of 5 years in a democracy.``

This is true only if a democracy exists. The blasphemy law in Pakistan seemed to have survived ten years of an elected govts. As did the Hudood ordinances. And they were only going to get stronger, under the Shariah Bill. This does away with your theory.

``If we believe that the law of God which He has given to us through our Prophet is the right law, then we have to take a start from somewhere.``

I agree with this. Unfortunately, everyone seems to interpret this law differently, and hence ends up fighting each other. In any case, this is your view, you should vote in this direction. Let other Pakistanis vote in whatever direction they want.

``And what is better than taking a start with an elected democratic government.``

I couldn`t agree with you more. My family runs the election campaign of certain democratic candidates. And I am hoping I can participate in the process, this time around also. I just don`t want NS and BB in power again (they don`t even hold elections in their own parties). Nor do I want the hypocrite Mullahs running the country (non-hypocrit mullahs may be ok, but those type of people spend their time serving the people, and not in politics). Now that BB NS Qazis, and many of their ilk, are out, we may have genuine democracy. No civilian govt. would have kicked the above category of bozos out.

Are you against Musharraf because he is going after the militant extreme right in Pakistan, and thus not allowing their interpretation of Shariah to be implemented?

bong_dongs #34: ``Get your cause-effect right, the LTTE turned against India only after the PKF landed in Sri Lanka. A thousand Indian soldiers died trying to set things right.``

The assasination of Rajiv Gandhi took place during the second phase of India`s Tamil involvement (as did India`s operations against the Tigers): i.e. the phase in which India was going after them. You seemed to have totally ignored the phase where India assisted and supported them, which occured in the first phase. Are you seriously suggesting that India supported the Tamil Tigers, armed them, trained them, and then one fine morning decided it was going to start fighting against them, for no reason. Does that really make sense to you?

Obviously something happened. The Tamil Tigers weren`t serving the Indian purpose any longer. Initially India felt it was in its interest to support them, and their suicide bombings. Then their interests turned against India, and it started fighting them.

If India had not assisted them in the first place, then your argument would make sense. One only goes after something one creates, when it becomes a liability. Wouldn`t you agree? Did India assist the Tigers earlier just because it wanted to then go after them later? Not a very good reason to create them in the first place. Obviously the Tamil Tigers were an asset to begin with and then a liability.

I would be interested in any references from your side indicating that India only went after the Tamil Tigers, and did not support them earlier. Kindly rely on international neutral sources or on Pakistani sources (just like I rely on neutral sources or on Indian sources to make my points). Here are some references from my side, indicating that India first helped the Tigers and then turned against them, when it realized they were a liability and no longer an asset:

``India`s earlier support

In fact, earlier in the conflict, New Delhi had given support to Tamil militants, under what was often described as a misguided policy. Former Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi believed that it was in India`s interest to show solidarity with the ethnic Tamils.`` (http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/2000/05/16/p6s1.htm)

``LTTE`s India links were far more dubious than are made out to be

Manvendra Singh

A cross-section of officials who dealt with India`s crisis in Sri Lanka are clear about New Delhi`s duplicity in dealing with the LTTE. The furore, therefore, over portions of the Jain Commission report pointing fingers at one of the Dravidian political parties is misplaced on account of one basic fact, every political organisation in Tamil Nadu, national or regional, was involved in promoting and sustaining activities of the LTTE and they were aided by the intelligence agencies of the Centre as well as the State Government......

From the beginning of India`s involvement with militant Sri Lankan Tamil groups in 1981, until late 1993, its intelligence agencies were actively involved with, and in the promotion of, the LTTE; and for most of this period, the Congress was the ruling party.....

The recently published book Assignment Colombo by J N Dixit, the former Foreign Secretary and the then High Commissioner in Sri Lanka, is replete with instances of active contact maintained by agencies of the governments of India and Tamil Nadu with the LTTE, even after (my note: I didn`t know this point. Apparently, even after the operation against the Tigers was launched, India was maintaining contacts with them) the commencement of `Operation Pawan` by the IPKF(complete article at http://www.expressindia.com/ie/daily/19971113/31750493.html)

arjun_m #33: ``A poll published today says that a MAJORITY of the islamic world doesnt think the arabs were responsible for 911. I call such people uncivilized.``

I don`t really think it matters what you call anyone. The only thing that matters are the facts on the ground. And I have quoted from neutral sources to provide you the facts.

I think if you poll most Americans they will think that US did not, and still does not, kill innocent Iraqis in Iraq. If you poll African Americans, they will think OJ was framed. Are all of them uncivilized?

``And race remains a clear point of division. According to the poll, 80 percent of whites believe Simpson is guilty, versus only 26 percent of African-Americans.`` (http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=442)

If you are still convinced that Hindu extremism is somehow or the other better than Islamic extremism, then I will not attempt to change your mind. In my opinion, all extremism is bad, and is not a function of religion, but of social surroundings and individual actions. So I guess we disagree on this.

``and what would be a good guage of what the western civilized world is thinking? its free media of course.

Apply this simple logic. In the past months how many discussions have you seen on islamic terrorism and how many discussions have you seen on hindu terrorism.``

First of all, I don`t consider the West to have a monopoly on being civilised. And definitely not the western media, or any other media. If what you say is correct, then why not let the western media becoming the judge for everyone`s morality.

The reason the Western media is covering Islamic extremism, is because it was attacked by Islamic extremism (infact the US media and the US President have gone out of their way to detach Al-Qaeda from Islam). Had it been attacked by Hindu extremism, it would cover that. I am surprised you cannot understand this. If you look at the Indian Muslim magazines, they cover Hindu extremism, for similar reasons. Press covers what is currently happening in their surroundings.

``how many of these countries/groups are islamic?how many of the state departments list of terrorism supporting countries are islamic?``

The only reference I have heard of targeting any country is the US axis of evil speech. This included Iran, Iraq and North Korea. This has been ridiculed by everyone in the world, including the EU. Please read the comments of the French minister. Infact the Canadian speechwriter who wrote this phrase, has been let go by the White House. Bush has himself is backpeddling from this remark now.

The US State Dept is not the standard for morality. At least not in my book. The State depts. of superpowers, historically, have been responsible for killing more innocent people than anyone else. They have to do so, to keep their hold on world politics. Do you really think the US State Dept. uses human rights as its criteria. Please read the Ramsey report on how many people have died in Iraq due to US State Dept. actions. The US state dept. supported the Shah of Iran, Saddam Hussein when he was gasing people. It supports the regime of Saudi Arabia, for heavens sake. If you want morality, look towards the international human rights organizations like AI. The last place you should look is the US state dept.

``let me refresh your memory...indian soldiers died when the IPKF was sent to sri lanka to get the tamil tigers. the tamil tigers killed rajiv gandhi because india turned on them.``

This is exactly what I have stated. India went after the Tamil Tigers, after the turned on India. It was however, India which supported them earlier. I will quote from the BBC again.

````Different Indian administrations have been responsible for training and arming the Tamil rebels in the past in different parts of the sub-continent.`` (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_526000/526407.stm)

``As for what represents civilization, if india/pakiland are uncivilized, what is the civilized world? It is the west where we live and the west that really matters.``

I find it astonishing that a person of Indian origin can consider Indians uncivlized. What I had stated was that the West considers India and Pakistan uncivilized. That doesn`t make them uncivilized. I certainly don`t consider Indians and Pakistanis uncivilized. I hope you don`t either.

`` dont consider hindu extremism better than islamic terrorism. comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.``

You seemed to have changed your mind, all of a sudden. The whole argument was based on your initial remark from reply #3:

``There can be no equivalence between islamic terrorists and hindu fundamentalists. Call me when a thackrey goon flies a plane into a building full of non believers or bombs a building in a foreign country.``

Urstruly (49):

I agree with a little of what you`re saying. Don`t want to get into the details because there`s too much up in the air. Just one reflection/opinion, Musharraf`s policies are not a one man show. If he were to get blown up in a plane by terrorists (as you suggest), I don`t believe things will take a u-turn or get derailed. The government and the people for the most part want peace, and want criminals (whether miltants, sectarian etc.) put away. Rule of law has to be followed and Pakistan is a sovereign country, thats why I believe Omar Sheikh should have his trial and hanging in Pakistan, because the crime was committed in Pakistan.

Do keep criticizing, finding issues and discussing, because the questioning process should never stop and if everyone becomes a yes-man then that is something to worry about.

I saw Iftikhar Ahmed Rao (some Punjab govt. official) on PTV last night talking about the murder of shias in pindi. He was very clear and focused in the governments objectives, and i got the feeling that he sincerely meant what he was saying... He also answered questions very intelligently. When asked what the public/common man can do to help the government combat terrorism, he said that the terrorists have safe houses and sympathizers, they plan their attacks days in advance, checking out timings of namazis, police presence etc. he suggested if people see any new or suspicious (mashkook) people in your vicinity report them to the security agencies etc.

The fact that people are involved, asking questions, putting the govt. officials on the spot is a great thing. Keep it up - Dialogue is great, violence is not.

Addition to Post # 37

`` What Hindus should understand is that it is better not to touch Muslims and leave them at their misery. Let them construct their Mosques by demolishing temples, demolishing other gods, shariah bull sh, their ``Talaqs Talaqs Talaqs``, multiply like rats and place each of their sons in local cycle repair shops, sell their daughters to old impotent Arab sheiks, burning women and children alive in trains, blowing up market places, blowing up peoples workplaces etc etc etc. ..........Any rationally thinking person will understand that it is better to encourage moslems to follow their stone age civilization for that is the thing that will guarantee the Moslems illiteracy, downtroddeness, poverty and misery. Every government in the world should follow the appeasement of muslims as a state policy. Keep shariah as a seperate policy for muslims only and keep appeasing them. That`s the only way of not inviting any trouble. ``

By keeping a seperate law system for Moslems, everybody can keep them happy and we can be really really happy because we can see with our own eyes their own degradation in to some stone age society. Islam is like the `` ring `` of the Dark lord sauron in the ``Lord of the rings``. Whoever wears it will degrade in to a creepy primate like that creature who keeps the ring for five hundred years. It`s only a matter of time that the sub saharan countries overtake the muslims countries in prosperity, literacy and progress. That day, my friends, is not so far....