Memories of December 6th

farzana ji
farz kiya hai er sorry arz kiya hai: Did lord AAllaah want the ram temple to be broken to make way for a masjid??

The Weekly Standard

http://www.weeklystandard.com

Sheikh Gilani`s American Disciples

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/996lxfmd.asp

What to make of the Islamic compounds across America affiliated with the Pakistani radical group Jamaat al-Fuqra?

by Mira L. Boland

03/18/2002, Volume 007, Issue 26

WALL STREET JOURNAL reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped when he went looking for the leader of a group called Jamaat al-Fuqra in the terrorist bazaar of Pakistan. At the time he disappeared, Pearl was tracking reports that Fuqra had hosted would-be shoe bomber Richard Reid at its walled compound in Lahore. In the end, it was agents of another group that spirited Pearl off to his death, but Fuqra remains a subject of interest, and not only because of its activities in Pakistan. For Fuqra has had a disturbing U.S. presence for more than 20 years. Today, half a dozen Fuqra residential compounds in rural hamlets across the country shelter hundreds of members, some of whom, according to intelligence sources, have been trained in the use of weapons and explosives in Pakistan.

Fuqra`s founder and chief, the man Pearl sought to interview, is a rotund Kashmiri of Sufi background with long-standing ties to Pakistan`s Interservice Intelligence Agency (ISI), Sheikh Mubarik Ali Hasmi Shah Gilani. At least until President Musharraf`s decision last fall to support the American war on terrorism, the ISI sponsored terrorist training camps in Pakistan and Pakistani-controlled Kashmir. Sheikh Gilani has rubbed shoulders at international terrorist confabs with gunslingers from Hamas and Hezbollah, their mullah backers, and Osama bin Laden. And he has trained fighters for the battlefields of Kashmir, Chechnya, and Bosnia.

Gilani launched his U.S. operations in 1980. Within ten years, Fuqra`s communes were billing themselves as havens where Muslim converts--many of them inner-city blacks, sometimes recruited in prison--could build new lives. At least seven such communities are active today, in Hancock, N.Y.; Red House, Va.; Tulare County, Calif.; Commerce, Ga.; York, S.C.; Dover, Tenn.; and Combermere, Canada. While some of these enclaves contain only rudimentary buildings and trailers, the California compound has 300 residents on a 440-acre spread, according to a recent report by a local ABC station. Residents deny any involvement with terror, but Fuqra has a history of getting into trouble with the law.

Over the years, at least a dozen Fuqra members have been convicted of crimes including conspiracy to commit murder, firebombing, gun smuggling, and workers` compensation fraud in the United States or Canada. And Fuqra members are suspects in at least 10 unsolved assassinations and 17 firebombings between 1979 and 1990. Nor is Fuqra`s criminal activity all in the past. In the last year alone, a resident of the California compound was charged with first degree murder in the shooting of a sheriff`s deputy; another was charged with gun smuggling; the state of California launched an investigation into the fate of more than a million dollars in public funds given to a charter school run by Fuqra leaders; and two residents of the Red House community were convicted of firearms violations, while a third awaits trial.

Harder to document publicly but affirmed by several investigators and intelligence sources are the group`s continuing links with guerrilla training in Pakistan. But then elusiveness is the order of the day for an organization whose members are well versed in the use of aliases; whose structure, shrouded behind front groups, is a network of safe houses and cells; and whose founder and members consistently maintain that it doesn`t exist.

SHEIKH GILANI found his first American recruits by raiding the ranks of an existing American Muslim organization, the Dar ul Islam. At a Brooklyn mosque, Gilani, sporting ammunition belts, preached Islam as the path to a better life and called for fighters to join the holy war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Under the guise of studying Islam, some of his followers were initiated into the international Islamist movement. Their campaign of crime on U.S. soil began almost at once.

As befits Gilani`s close ties to Kashmir and the ISI, Fuqra`s early targets in North America were ethnic Indians and sites linked to Indian sects. Thus, in July 1983, Stephen Paul Paster, a ranking member of Fuqra and one of its few whites, blew off most of one hand while planting a pipe bomb at a Portland, Ore., hotel owned by followers of the late guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh. At the time Fuqra`s principal bombmaker, Paster escaped from a hospital and remained on the lam for two years. After police caught up with him at a Fuqra house in Colorado, Paster served 4 years of a 20-year prison sentence for the bombing. He was suspected but not charged in two other bombings in Seattle in 1984 while he was a fugitive, the bombings of the Vedanta Society temple and the Integral Yoga Society building. Paster now lives in Lahore, where U.S. intelligence sources say he provides explosives training to visiting Fuqra members.

Shortly after the hotel bombing in Portland, two Fuqra members allegedly murdered Dr. Mozaffar Ahmad, a leader of the minority Ahmadiyyah Islamic sect in Canton, Mich. Both suspects died in a fire they had set at the Ahmadiyyah mosque in nearby Detroit, but the weapon used to murder Ahmad was found with their bodies. No one was ever charged in a triple slaying on August 1, 1984, but police suspect Fuqra. The victims were Leela Nevaskar, an Indian national who was in the United States as part of a government-sponsored health project, and her sister and brother-in-law. The three were murdered in a suburb of Tacoma, Wash., during a spate of firebombings of Hindu and Hare Krishna temples in Seattle, Denver, Philadelphia, and Kansas City, Mo. Police found news reports of the Tacoma murders from Seattle papers among Fuqra files seized in a later case.

FUQRA`S violence gained wider public notice in 1989, when police, seeking evidence in a series of thefts, searched a storage locker in Colorado Springs. They found a remarkable trove of armaments and documents, with multiple links to Fuqra.

Among the handguns, semi-automatic firearms, more than 30 pounds of explosives, pipe bombs, and bomb components were several bombs of an unusual design identical to that of a device recovered from the firebombed Hare Krishna temple in Denver. There was a large photo of Sheikh Omar Abdel Rahman, the blind cleric who would be convicted in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and target silhouettes labeled FBI Anti-Terrorist Team, Zionist Pig, Delta Team, and SAS (British Special Air Service), on which were found the fingerprints of James Donald Williams, Fuqra chief for Colorado, and the handwriting of Vincente Rafael Pierre (of whom more later). There were blank birth certificates, Social Security cards, and several sets of Colorado driver`s licenses bearing identical photos but various names.

Among the documents were agreements signed by Fuqra members. They promised to tithe to the organization and to further contribute to the purchase of weapons and land. Those receiving welfare ``pledged`` to contribute either 75 percent or 100 percent of their welfare checks and food stamps. And they stated, ``I, too, am willing to be used as a channel through which kuffar [infidel] monies are contributed toward the building of an Islamic town and other allied cities and/or programmes outside the continental United States, as well.`` Individuals selected to live on compounds agreed to ``abide by the law and discipline of Jamaatul Fuqra.``

Several documents described the activities and code of the ``Muhammad Commandos of Sector 5,`` who apparently met for training in weapons, hand-to-hand combat, intelligence gathering, explosives, incendiaries, and booby traps, according to Susan M. Fenger, then chief criminal investigator of the Colorado Department of Labor and Employment, who handled the case. And a document headed ``Incogs`` instructed commandos on ways of blending in with infidels while on an operation.

Finally, the locker yielded what Fenger termed ``targeting packets`` on potential targets and victims in Los Angeles, Arizona, and Colorado. These included maps of oil and gas fields and electrical facilities, notes on cell phone sites and repeaters, references to the U.S. Air Force Academy and other military locations, and lists of people in 12 states and Canada with Jewish or Hindu-sounding names. A trove of targeting packets tied followers of Gilani to the firebombings of the Hare Krishna temples in Denver and Philadelphia.

One of the packets outlined a murder plot that hadn`t yet unfolded--but soon did. The target was a rival imam in Tucson, Rashad Khalifa. Alarmed by interior and exterior surveillance photographs of the cleric`s mosque and a four-page handwritten murder plan, Colorado Springs police notified authorities in Tucson, who warned Khalifa he was a marked man. A week later, on January 31, 1990, assailants stabbed Khalifa 19 times. The murder was ``a carbon copy of the handwritten plan,`` said Colorado assistant attorney general Doug Wamsley. The scheme called for attacking Khalifa in the mosque`s kitchen at night, proceeding by ``the quietest method feasible: knife, garrot [sic],`` and eliminating any witnesses. Khalifa apparently had angered Fuqra when he preached that the Quran was written by man, not God.

No one was charged with murder in Khalifa`s death, but eventually two Fuqra members, James Donald Williams and Nicolas Edward Laurent Flinton, were charged with conspiracy to commit murder. A Colorado jury convicted Williams in October 1993, but he jumped bail just before sentencing and remained free until he was arrested in Lynchburg, Va., in 2000; at the time Williams was living at the Fuqra compound in Red House. Flinton also fled; arrested in 1996 at a Fuqra community in South Carolina, he pleaded guilty and is currently in prison appealing his 22-year sentence.

FUQRA terrorism in North America appears to have peaked in the early 1990s. In 1991, luck derailed Fuqra plans to bomb an Indian movie theater and a Hindu temple near Toronto. Five men were arrested at the Niagara Falls border crossing after U.S. Customs agents searched their cars and found photographs, floor plans, and videotapes of the interiors of the targets, details of ``recon team,`` ``guard team,`` and ``hit team`` roles, and a description of how ``time delay`` bombs could be placed below the cinema floor. A second document stated that targeting a Hindu temple would ``allow for total focus on the Hindus without any other party being involved in the fallout.`` A Canadian jury convicted three American Fuqra members of ``conspiracy to commit mischief endangering life.`` A fourth suspect, Max Lon Fongenie, who had come to Canada from Pakistan shortly before the plot was set in motion, fled back to Pakistan after his co-conspirators` arrest, according to evidence presented at the trial.

By this time, Fuqra was often operating under the cover of two front groups, ``Muslims of the Americas`` and Sheikh Gilani`s ``Quranic Open University.`` On its incorporation papers, the open university portrayed itself as a religious, charitable, and educational institution dedicated to home study and public awareness of the Quran. But Gilani`s own writings and statements exposed the militant mission behind this fa ade.

Thus, works by the sheikh published by the Quranic Open University and seized in a 1991 investigation instructed his followers that their ``foremost duty`` was ``to wage Jihad`` against the oppressors of Muslims. One of Gilani`s poems is entitled ``We dhikr [pray] to the beat of a submachine gun.`` Another exhorts, ``Come join my troops and army / Says our Sheikh Gilani / Prepare to sacrifice your head / A true believer is never dead / Say `Victory is in the air` / The kafir`s [infidel`s] blood will not be spared.``

Gilani`s appearance in a recruitment video from this period (seized in 1992 and used in the Canadian trial) is in the same vein. The video shows mujahedeen types being trained in the use of firearms and explosives. Gilani, wearing a camouflage jacket over traditional Pakistani dress, declares: ``We give [recruits] highly specialized training in guerrilla warfare. . . . We are at present establishing training camps. . . . You can easily reach us at Quranic Open University offices in upstate New York or in Canada or in Michigan or in South Carolina or in Pakistan. Wherever we are you can reach us.``

Even more damning is footage filmed in December 1993 by the Canadian Broadcasting Company when it covered a major jihadist conclave in Khartoum. The meeting was sponsored by then-Sudanese strongman and terror impresario Hassan Abdullah al-Turabi. An urbane, Sorbonne-educated Islamic scholar, Turabi had engineered a strategic alliance among Sunni-dominated Sudan, Shiite Iran, and Pakistan. With funding and expertise from Iran, Turabi made his country the launching pad for the first attack on the World Trade Center.

Turabi also created the Popular Arab Islamic Conference (PAIC) as a vehicle for bringing together Sunni, Shiite, and secular, heretofore Marxist, terrorist groups. The 1993 PAIC conference in Khartoum was a who`s who of Islamist terror. Mullahs from Iran and Afghanistan were there, along with delegates from Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, and the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine. Two generals, one of them a former chief of the ISI, and an adviser to Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto led the Pakistani delegation. Osama bin Laden, not yet a kingpin but living in Sudan while developing the organization and funding for his nascent network, was there. So was Sheikh Gilani: Foreign journalists placed him in the company of an unnamed Pakistani general and another man they took to be an ``ex``-Pakistani intelligence official. In the evening, large crowds regaled the assembled jihadists with chants of ``Down, down USA! Down, down CIA!,`` and (in Arabic) ``Death to the Jews!``

In an interview taped by the Canadian Broadcasting Company, Gilani acknowledged that one or two of the men charged in the Toronto bombing conspiracy had studied with him in Lahore. Nevertheless, he insisted that Fuqra does not exist and that he does not advocate violence. ``Once [people] join our [Quranic Open] university,`` he said, ``they become real good citizens. They stop smoking, they stop stealing, they stop living on welfare. That is what I teach them.``

THAT BENIGN face is the one Gilani`s current American followers seek to present to the world. Several Fuqra compounds boast signs at their gates for the Quranic Open University or Muslims of the Americas. Residents have told reporters they came seeking refuge from the mean streets. Law enforcement and intelligence sources, however, suggest the drop-off in Fuqra violence in recent years may be due to its sponsors` ``tightening the leash`` after the earlier attacks drew police scrutiny without advancing Islamist objectives. Fuqra`s core of trained operatives in the United States, according to this view, have been directed to lie dormant until needed to support a ``cost effective`` strike.

Be that as it may, there are plenty of continuing grounds for concern. One is new evidence of misuse of public funds. The California Justice Department is investigating the finances of GateWay Academy Public Charter School. The academy`s CEO and superintendent, Khadijah Ghafur, is also secretary of Muslims of the Americas and a member of the board of directors of the Quranic Open University. One of GateWay`s 11 campuses is located at Baladullah, Fuqra`s compound in Tulare County, in the foothills of the Sierras. GateWay cannot account for $1.3 million in state money, according to Jill Marmolejo, spokesman for the Fresno Unified School District, and is in default on another $1.8 million in loans. The school seemed poised to obtain greater public largesse--it submitted a $5.9 million budget to the board of education for fiscal 2002, apparently based on a wildly inflated student count (charter schools in California receive $4,600 per pupil)--but the district revoked its charter on January16.

This is reminiscent of an earlier Fuqra scam, the bilking of the Colorado workers` compensation fund in the early 1990s, for which several Fuqra members were jailed. Prosecutors showed that some $350,000 had been laundered through Professional Security International, a Fuqra security firm, and Muslims of the Americas. Investigator Susan Fenger says she tracked a portion of the funds through PSI to Fuqra couriers who traveled to Pakistan.

That security firm also served the purpose of enabling Fuqra members to obtain federal licenses to buy automatic weapons, according to Fenger. And it obtained bid packages from the Defense Department, the Veterans Administration, the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and the Department of Health and Human Services. It is hardly reassuring, then, that Fuqra currently maintains two security firms, Dagger Investigating Services and 786 Security Company, Inc., in Brooklyn, N.Y. Law enforcement sources suspect the group is continuing to launder funds through the firms for transfer to Gilani.

Then there are the recent weapons violations and other crimes. Ramadan Abdullah, charged in the shooting last August of a Fresno County deputy sheriff in the course of a burglary, had come to Baladullah from Hancock. James Hobson, another Baladullah resident, was arrested earlier last year by U.S. marshals and charged with smuggling guns between South Carolina and New York. Hobson, also known as Umar Abdussalam, is the son-in-law of Musa Abdussalam, an elder at Baladullah.

And at the Red House commune--whose origins go back to 1993, after Fuqra abandoned its Buena Vista, Co., location in the wake of conspiracy convictions--agents of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms made three arrests last fall. They charged Vincente Rafael Pierre and his wife Traci Elaine Upshur after she made ``straw purchases`` of .45 caliber handguns that her husband had selected. As a felon (he pleaded guilty in the workers` compensation scam), Pierre is not allowed to own firearms. A jury convicted both. A third Red House resident, Abdullah Ben Benu, is scheduled for trial in April for illegally transporting ammunition for AK-47 automatic rifles. Here, again, a trail leads back to Pakistan: The woman who raised Ben Benu is living in Lahore, according to law enforcement sources, with bombmaker Stephen Paul Paster.

The ATF had the Red House colony under surveillance for a couple of years before making last fall`s arrests. After September 11, authorities decided to move without further delay. At a bond hearing for Vincente Pierre on September 28, 2001, ATF Special Agent Thomas P. Gallagher told the court: ``Individuals from the organization are trained in Hancock, N.Y., and if they pass the training in Hancock, N.Y., are then sent to Pakistan for training in paramilitary and survivalist training by Mr. Gilani. . . . We have information from an informant that one individual [from Red House] did further his training by going to Afghanistan.``

And apparently the travel isn`t all one way. At the same hearing, Pierre testified that Red House has hosted ``many Muslims . . . from Pakistan, Arabic.`` Pakistan, of course, isn`t an Arab country, but plenty of Arabs have gone there to learn to use a gun.

There is no ironclad evidence that Fuqra`s American members today are part of the international conspiracy that threatens us. Rather, the ties are circumstantial and suggestive. What should be made, for example, of the fact that several weekend residents of Fuqra`s headquarters compound at Hancock work during the week as toll collectors at New York City bridges and tunnels--considering that the 1993 World Trade Center bombers had plans to blow up the George Washington Bridge and Hudson River tunnels? We also know that in the early 1990s Gilani`s U.S. recruits signed an oath saying, ``I shall always hear and obey, and whenever given the command, I shall readily fight for Allah`s sake.`` At the least, it is clear that Daniel Pearl was digging into a very interesting story.

Mira L. Boland`s articles have appeared in the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times.

Ref dost-mittar #: 219

[(can anyone tell who chose the name gyanvapi for a mosque and what it means?)]

Gyan - Knowledge

Vapi - Well, reservoir, large body of water.

Thus, Gyanvapi - Well of Knowledge.

The well inside Vishwanath Temple is the Gyanvapi and the water thereof is as holy to Hindus as the water of Zamzam Springs in Mecca is to Muslims.

Whether the well was always known as Gyan vapi or became sanctified as a result of the idol of Lord Vishwanath being hidden there for 12 years, I do not know.

Dear Banjaara

``First rule of the game is `To know your enemy` ;)

``

Yeah but you know tooooooo much ;) unlike Major Romair. I still believe that you have lived in India at some point of time in your life though you may be a Pakistani. If that is not true, then Indians are surely against a very very smart opponent ;)

Akash # 222

``PS You appear to have some Indian connection since you have displayed knowledge of local Indian dialects in the past. Also you know too much about India to be a true blue Pakistani ;)``

First rule of the game is `To know your enemy` ;)

Regards.

Romair

``The BJP and the VHP were voted into power, and thus represent the views of a large portion of Indians``

Just wait for sometime. We voted them in power and we will vote them out of power now. Either VHP and BJP would reform or they would perish. I can see the writing on the wall in another year: Congress in power and Sonia the PM.

Akash #222

Well said Akash ! My views exactly - khoon vahi hai - don`t these idiots realize :(

Maybe they should take all those lunatic guys and make them marry girls from the other dharam/mazhab (or at least adopt the orphans) and live as a ghar jamai the rest of their lives with them - that way all the fundoos will be neutralized in one generation

rsidhar #216: On principle, your stance is correct. But is it worth getting potentially thousands of people (mostly Muslims) killed? The BJP and the VHP were voted into power, and thus represent the views of a large portion of Indians. So taking on the BJP is like taking on hundreds of millions of Hindu Indians.

Would be interested in your comments...

Banjaara

Whatever transpired behind the closed doors, I dont care. What I care about is the tearing apart of our civilizaiton by intolerence and bigotry. I grew up learning that Hinduism is a tolerent religion and we believe in ``Vasudhaiv kutumbakam`` ie world is a family. But then there was always this complex that we have been cheated, fooled, looted by others precisely because of our docility and tolerent nature. So when this dispute started, I wanted a temple to be built, for no reason other than to restore the honour of a people who were oppressed for 7 centuries. Perhaps both Hindus and Muslims behave like a minority for this reason. Muslims are a numerical minority and Hindus a psychological minority. But as time passed and I ``grew up`` I realised that I am not a Hindu only, I am an Indian first. The Muslims that I thought of as ``other people`` are actually our own people. Now I derive my identity from ``Indianness``, its 5000 year old civilization, and I realize that this civilization stands to regress with BJP in power. Now after the incidents of the last few days, I dont want any temple. I just want to see the Indian civilization restore its values of tolerence and achieve its place amongst the geat civilizations of the world. Lord Ram would be happier if he could see his people a prosperous lot, instead of his temple of mud and brick.

PS You appear to have some Indian connection since you have displayed knowledge of local Indian dialects in the past. Also you know too much about India to be a true blue Pakistani ;)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

In India violence, some hindus dare to save Muslim lives

By Beth Duff-Brown Associated Press, 3/5/2002

AHMEDABAD, India - Horrified by the screams of his Muslim neighbors being beaten and burned alive, Virsing Rathod put aside fear and did what many other Hindus could not get up the courage to do.

The burly man and his two sons jumped in a truck, forced their way through frenzied Hindu rioters, and began pulling Muslims from the flames just before midnight Thursday.

He helped saved 25 Muslims that night and has since sheltered dozens in safe houses across this city engulfed by Hindu-Muslim violence that has claimed 544 lives.

The heroism showed by Rathod and a few other Hindus stood out amid a week when Hindus and Muslims killed one another with fire, daggers, and bombs.

Ten of his Muslim neighbors were still hiding in Rathod`s home yesterday, being comforted by his family and other Hindu neighbors.

He shrugged when asked if he`s a hero.

``I did it out of humanity, because in my heart I knew it was the right thing to do,`` he said, sitting in his tiny notary public office just behind a gutted mosque and across the street from where 66 Muslims were burned alive in a south Ahmedabad neighborhood.

``There is much affection between the Hindus and Muslims here, and I could not just stand by and let them die,`` said Rathod. ``What has happened is shameful.``

Violence has gripped Gujarat State since last Wednesday, when Muslims set fire to a train carrying Hindu nationalists. The 58 deaths provoked a retaliatory rampage by Hindus. Most of those killed since then have been Muslims. It was the worst Hindu-Muslim violence in India since 1993, when 800 people died in religious riots in Bombay.

Still, India`s 120 million Muslims live in relative harmony among the 1 billion Hindus and other minorities of India. Gujarat is the home state of Mohandas Gandhi, India`s beloved independence leader, who struggled for reconciliation between the Hindu majority and Muslim minority amid riots that killed nearly 1 million people after independence in 1947.

In Ram-Rahim Nagar, a teeming slum in the heart of Ahmedabad where Hindus and Muslims have lived and worked together for decades, residents say humanity is their religion and poverty their common bond. Even the name of their neighborhood is used as a catchword for communal amity in Indian literature - Ram is a principal Hindu god and Rahim, or the compassionate, is another name for Allah, the Muslim god.

Ram-Rahim residents insisted yesterday that not one person was killed, nor one shop burned down, in the community where 20,000 Hindus and Muslims have lived together in peace since 1964.

``The Hindus and Muslims here are so poor, living hand-to-mouth, that we can`t afford to attack one another,`` said Natwar Lal Bhikabhai, a Hindu member of the Ram-Rahim community association, whose Hindu and Muslim board of directors oversee the slum and mediate disputes.

This story ran on page A12 of the Boston Globe on 3/5/2002.

re:Reply #: 204

Romair,

I do not agree with your suggestion. VHP should never be allowed to build the temple. Such an act is unconstitutional. The matter is pending before the court. If muslims of India, from the goodness of their hearts, decide that they are not against the building of the temple, that is a different matter. But, no such decision should be done under duress. We are not talking of just a temple but what is legal and what is right. Destroying a mosque by force was neither legal nor right. BJP thro` VHP is trying to force this issue now. This needs to be opposed with all force. I am glad BJP is getting a thrashing in assembly elections. If it pursues in its efforts, it will soon be decimated. Yes, BJP needs to be voted out of power,without ever changing the present status of the mosque.

Akash 214

No body knows exactly what transpired behind those

doors between the parties concerned.I wrote what

was being reported in the local press and also

talking to some of the members of the BMAC.Sadly

BMAC has been hijacked in the last few years by

people like Syed Shahabuddin,The Shahi Imam and

Muslim Personal Law Board and the hardliners

from both sides seem to call the shots.

That`s all my friend.You dont expect a Paki to

know everything;)

Regards.

Banjaara

If that is the case, I wonder why Action Committee has not vociferously voiced its stand. This will surely call the bluff of VHP. I dont doubt you but I am not so sure about this part since very less appears to have been written in media about it. Are you sure that this was indeed the deal or were the papers merely speclating what went on behind the closed doors.

Akash 211

Before the destruction of the Babri Masjid,sincere

efforts were made by the two sides to sort this

problem once for all.Chandrashekhar,VP Singh and

the original members of the All India Babri Masjid

Action Committee(who were from Faizabad and Ayodhya only)had put the proposal of converting

Babri Masjid as Ram Janam Bhoomi provided the

Sangh Parivar dropped all other claims on other

Mosques.The hardliners specially Giriraj Kishore,

and Vishnu H Dalmiya opposed it vehemantly.You

may find the details of these meetings in the archives of Daily Pioneer (Lucknow) and Dainik

Jagran (Kanpur)between the years 1990-92.

Regards.

Banjaara 207/Ali1 208: ``Romair Saheb,you claim that Pakistanis know more about India than the Indians know about Pakistan,``

I still believe this.

``FYI,The Babri Masjid Action Committee has agreed to let go of the Babri Masjid``

If this is the case, then I stand corrected. I was unaware of this. I am not quite sure what the solution maybe then. If it is one mosque after another, then at some stage a line needs to be drawn.

``VHP/BJP/RSS are the acronyms and the full names are``

This one I did know. I knew what the acronyms stood for. I just didn`t know why the names were so long.

``Waiting for your next advise to theIndian Muslims.``

Based on the above, I really don`t have any furthur advice. I suppose Indian Muslims need to unite and form a national political party of their own. But that maybe hard, because they are so spread out all over India.

``You must know from their websites that there is a list of several hundred mosques which they think have been built over destroyed temples and must be demolished now. Where do you think if will end?``

I didn`t realize the list of mosques was so long.

``Do you think Pakistan was possible if Indian Muslims would have stategically retreated after every 500 casualties?``

A strategic retreat is carried out when one knows one will be defeated if one fights. It is pointless to get into any battle, regardless of the fact whether one`s stance is right or wrong, if one is sure one will lose in the end. It is better to regroup to fight another day.

At the time of partition, Pakistanis did not need to strategically retreat because they had a very good chance of winning. There were certain areas where they were in a majority. The chances of winning were at least 50% or more. Had there been no or very little chance of winning, and in the process all of the Muslims would have been killed in a losing battle, then I think a strategic retreat would have been the answer.

In the current case, although I am not an expert on India, I don`t see how the Muslims can win. They have to regroup and strengthen themselves politically first, and then attempt to take a stand.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Dear Banjaara

``Babri Masjid Action Committee has agreed to let go of the Babri Masjid provided no more mosques are targetted in future and the statusquo of the waqf properties of 1947Act is maintained,which has, however, been rejected by the VHP,RSS and Bajrang Dal``

Can you please cite the sources. I am not aware of any such thing. If this is indeed the case, then why the Action Committee does not declare it openly.

satyavadi

....so now the isi`s infiltrated the congress...

http://rediff.com/news/2002/mar/03train5.htm

Prime suspect in Godhra carnage held

The prime suspect in the Godhra train carnage case, Mohammad Hussain Kolota, local Congress leader and president of Godhra Municipality, was on Sunday arrested bringing the total number of arrests in connection with the attack to 27.

Kolota, convenor of city Congress minority cell, was picked up by personnel of the anti-dacoity squad of the Godhra police from the residence of one Iqbal in Polan Bazar area during a combing operation, Inspector General of Police Deepak Swaroop said.

Kolota, 45, has been evading arrest since the attack on the Sabarmati Express last Wednesday, which killed 58 people.

Police have already arrested two municipal councillors and were looking for another two -- Bilal Haji and Farookh Bhana -- in connection with the mayhem that led to widespread communal violence in several parts of Gujarat claiming nearly 430 lives.

Others arrested from different places were identified as Siraj Jamsa, Zabir Kala, Abdul Sheikh and Abdul Rauf Yayman.

Earlier, the police had arrested 22 people, including two councillors -- Salim Shaikh and Abdul Rahim Dantia. Both the councillors had contested the polls on independent symbols.

Romair # 204:

[I have concluded that the Indian Muslims should give up on the idea of Babri Mosque.... I am afraid it is time for the Indian Muslims to carry out a strategic retreat]

Facists can never be appeased; appeasement only whets their appetite. And who can be worse facists than the likes of BJP, VHP, RSS etc. If Indian Muslims agree to give up Babri Mosque today, the facists will ask for the Mosque at Mathura tomorrow. You must know from their websites that there is a list of several hundred mosques which they think have been built over destroyed temples and must be demolished now. Where do you think if will end?

PS. Do you think Pakistan was possible if Indian Muslims would have stategically retreated after every 500 casualties?

PPS. Strategic retreat seems to be the strategic forte of Pakistan Army these days :-)) [Just kidding major saab].

Romair # 204

``Secondly, after thinking about this whole issue, I have concluded that the Indian Muslims should give up on the idea of Babri Mosque.``

Romair Saheb,you claim that Pakistanis know more about India than the Indians know about Pakistan,

I am afraid your contention is wrong with a capital W,considering your above quoted advise to

the Indian Muslims.FYI,The Babri Masjid Action Committee has agreed to let go of the Babri Masjid

provided no more mosques are targetted in future

and the statusquo of the waqf properties of 1947Act is maintained,which has, however, been rejected by the VHP,RSS and Bajrang Dal.For your kind information,after Babri Masjid,the next conversionis for the following three mosques:

1. Gyan Vaapi Mosque in Benaras (Varanashi).

2. Jaama Masjid in Mathura.

3. Teelay wali Masjid in Lucknow.

The Last and the final phase is the destruction of

some 2996 more mosques all over India for a grand

total of 3000 mosques which are purported to have been built by destroying Hindu Temples



``The Indian Muslims need to let the VHP/BJP/RSS (why do Indian religious parties have such long names, and need to be referred to by acronyms?) build the temple without any resistence.``



Your ignorance about India/Indian is further

elaborated when you ask the above.VHP/BJP/RSS are the acronyms and the full names are:

Vishva Hindu Parishad.

Bhartiya Janata Party.

Rashtriya sweyam sevak Sangh.

Waiting for your next advise to theIndian Muslims.

Regards.

Reply #: 204

Romair

First of all, where is the author of this article.....I hope she is doing well....

Secondly, after thinking about this whole issue, I have concluded that the Indian Muslims should give up on the idea of Babri Mosque. As cruel as this may sound, ....

---------

Romair

Its NOT more cruel than even one life burnt by hate mongerer

First the innocent victim of this perverted retaliation vengence ,dont know difference between shajahan mosque from babri mosque 1000 miles away from there .

Except for vote merchants no body discusses Babri mosque ,& take it from me ,never heard of it except through news media.

What is this SOLUTUION being presented I di dont think banning Modi govt will solve it nor Muslim need solace from the low votes of BJP.Party changes ,from Congrwess to Bjp ,but ppl are the same ..they kill & they never change whether it is congress or BJP.

http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/01042001/Art04a.htm













Masjid Quwwatul Islam

By Maulana Sher Muhammad

Members of Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) and Bajrang Dal (BD) attempted to conduct a Yagya on the premises of Quwwatul Islam mosque near the Qutb Minar. Their attempt was, however, foiled by the police.

It should be noted that there are two mosques in the Qutb complex. One mosque is in front of the main gate which was built during the Mughal period and the other is in front of the Qutb Minar itself. This is Quwwatul Islam mosque built by Qutbuddin Aibak. This mosque is now in ruins. Only its main gate with excellent engravings remains and this too is in a very dilapidated condition. The Archaeological Survey of India (ASI) has put up a board outside the main gate, which states that Qutbuddin Aibak built this mosque after demolishing 28 temples and used the stones and pillars of these temples to build it. As a matter of fact the origin of the mischief starts from here itself. Tourists and others who read this board get a very bad impression about Muslim kings and their minds get poisoned.

Farishta,the historian, simply said that Qutbuddin built the mosque here and prayers started subsequently. There is, however, a statue of Lord Ganesh in one of the walls which was probably found while digging the earth and fixed there like any other stone. But taking it as an excuse the activists of VHP and Bajrang Dal insist that a temple will be built here if prayers can be offered in this mosque. The fact, however, is that no prayers are offered here. Prayers are offered in another mosque which is at a considerable distance from Quwwatul Islam mosque and which was built 500 years later and is known as Masjid Tarikhul Islam.

About five years ago Hindu Mahasabha people used to come here every week with drums etc and declared their intention of building a temple at this place but the educated and sensible people of Delhi did not participate in their plot. This time also the same drama is repeated. But the people at large did not take part. There were hardly a hundred people though police and the ASI had taken sufficient precaution to frustrate this game. The day passed off peacefully but we could not offer prayers in the Tarikhul Islam mosque. Every day prayers are offered in this mosque three times, i.e., Zohar, Asr and Maghrib, while Fajr and Isha prayers are not allowed. Though in Ramadan, Isha and Taraweeh are allowed but it requires obtaining permission from the concerned authorities. This mosque is also in a bad shape but the people of ASI neither themselves get it repaired nor allow us to repair it, though construction work goes on almost every day in the Qutb complex. Last year we got the outer wall repaired but Hukum Chand objected to it and he made a complaint to the DG and started charging money for entry into the mosque. Whoever came to the mosque for prayers had to purchase entry tickets. After running from pillar to post this problem was solved after about a month and namazis were exempted from purchasing tickets. There is no electricity in the mosque and we have to face great difficulties in summer, but they have not taken any action in giving electricity connection. I have been serving as the imam in this mosque for the last 25 years but there is no electricity and no repair work in this mosque despite the fact that the mosque is in a very bad shape and there are cracks in its walls at several places and the small minarets can fall any time. This mosque is a thorn in the eyes of VHP and Bajrang Dal because its shape is like the Babri Masjid with three domes and minarets. These people intend to come again and there may be some problem again. [][]

[]

[]

[]

[]

Clockwise: Qutb Minar, ruins of the Quwwatul-Islam Mosque, courtyard of the mosque with an iron-pillar, images recently planted into the walls of the mosque for future use as ‘proofs’, an image planted into the outside wall of the Quwwatul Islam mosque being protected with iron grills, Tarikhul Islam mosque which was briefly locked by unknown elements. Photos: Ahmad Rahmani

In Mehrauli area there are Jamali Kamali mosque, Razia Sultan’s mosque, Malai Masjid, ‘Picnic Horror’ and many more mosques in which people gamble, drink openly and nothing is being done to prevent them. Not only this, if someone wants to offer prayers in these mosques, he is not allowed to do so and is taken to the police station. Other historical mosques such as Khirkee Masjid, Begumpur Masjid etc, which are as large as the Delhi Jama Masjid, but all kinds of vulgar and dirty things take place there but the government is not taking any action to stop these things, though it knows everything which is going on there. For one Babri Masjid Hindus raised such a storm, although it was actually a mosque, and so far it is not proved whether there was a Ram temple here or not. And it is a pity that Muslims cannot obtain their own mosques, which are undisputed.

Are Delhi Muslims so busy making money that they have no time to pay attention to these desolate and neglected mosques? If Muslims themselves will not take care of them, who will do so? If Jamiatul Ulama, All-India Muslim Council, ‘Save Masjid’ committee, Jamaat-e-Islami etc pay attention towards these mosques, these can be prevented from further desecration and destruction, otherwise these will lose their character and shape in such a way that it will become difficult to recognize whether these are mosques at all. The Yagya programme of the VHP and Bajrang Dal has received wide publicity throughout the country in newspapers, radio and TV etc. Haroon Yusuf, Shoaib Iqbal, Syed Shahabuddin and Syed Ahmad Bukhari, if you ever happen to come to Mehrauli or Qutb Minar, you can see for yourselves whatever is going on in these mosques.

Maulana Sher Muhammad is imam of the Tarikhul Islam mosque adjacent to the Qutb Minar

First of all, where is the author of this article.....I hope she is doing well....

Secondly, after thinking about this whole issue, I have concluded that the Indian Muslims should give up on the idea of Babri Mosque. As cruel as this may sound, no structure is important enough to risk the loss of so much life. Someone needs to realize this. And if the elected BJP doesn`t recognize it, then the Muslims should.

In the end, it is the Indian Muslims who will be at the wrong end of the violence. The best result for the BJP govt. would be for the Muslims not to resist, and for Ram Mandir to be built, and then for everything to be forgotten. The worst result for the BJP would be for the Muslim to resist, the Ram Mandir not to be built, and all out violence to occur. The Muslims are in a lose-lose situation, so they need to settle for the lesser of two losses.

If the Muslims resist, they will get killed. It is understandable that this issue is a watershed point for the Indian society, but Muslims need to realize that by voting for the BJP, a large portion of the Indian public has already decided which side it`s on. Only one NDA coalition party has stated that it will leave the coalition, if the Mandir is built. And the BJP isn`t taking any action against the VHP. Advani`s article of the construction of the Ram Mandir is still on the BJP website. And Vajpayee is unwilling to take any action against the VHP hardliners.

The Indian Muslims need to let the VHP/BJP/RSS (why do Indian religious parties have such long names, and need to be referred to by acronyms?) build the temple without any resistence. Then they then need to attempt to vote out the BJP through the election. This may seem like a defeat, but actually it is the best course of action. After seeing the way the mobs were going after the Muslims in Ahmedabad and celebrating, I am afraid it is time for the Indian Muslims to carry out a strategic retreat, rather than a violent defense. In the long run, this maybe the best thing for India, as a whole, also. Assuming that the average Hindu Indian is willing to get rid of the BJP also. If the Indian Hindus are not willing to get rid of the BJP completely, then I am afraid the Indian Muslims are in big trouble, for the long run.

This is a sad day for all educated Indians who vote for the BJP. All I can say is if the day ever arrives in Pakistan when an elected govt. openly declares it will destroy a mandir (regardless of who built it), I would oppose it even if were to turn Pakistan into Singapore.

Army in, state looks for line of control

XXXTwo mass murders push toll to 200, violence spreads to villages, Godhra funeral procession turns into a killer mob

XXXDefence Minister on the defensive as angry residents ask him what about the police, how can we keep the peace

EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

AHMEDABAD, MARCH 1: Two mass murders, fears of a third coming in after midnight, reports of families being burnt alive threatened to push Gujarat deeper into the communal cauldron today as the deathcount touched 200, 130 in Ahmedabad city alone.

This despite the fact that Union Defence Minister George Fernandes was in town, the Army staged flag marches and the utter inadequacy of the police and the state government paralysed both Houses of Parliament.

Between daybreak, when 53 people seeking shelter from the mob were burnt alive, to late tonight when 40 Muslim residents in a Godhra village were charred to death, the state was on the boil for the second successive day although curfew was imposed in 40 cities and towns.

Eight people, including two children, in a Tata Sumo were burnt alive in the city this afternoon. In nearby Gandhinagar, for the first time since its inception as the capital in 1970, night curfew was imposed following arson and looting in different sectors.

The police, its credibility lowest than ever, tried to salvage its reputation intervening in some clashes by opening fire. Twenty were killed in police firing across the state, 12 in Ahmedabad.

Late in the evening, as the violence in the city showed some signs of abating, reports of carnage came in from neighbouring towns and villages. Across the Panchmahal district, more than 50 were feared dead in a series of clashes in several talukas.

The General Motors’ plant at Halol was shut down and the entire walled city was on edge with fears of yet another bloody night.

In Vadodara, three persons were burnt alive and one person succumbed to police bullets when police fired to disperse a violent mob that gheraoed a Deputy Superintendent of Police and an inspector in Manjalpur. Police Commissioner D D Tuteja said additional forces had to rush in to save the policemen.

Fernandes faced hostile crowds of citizens in Ahmedabad who shouted down his appeals for peace and complained of gross police inaction. Angry residents confronted the Defence Minister at Bapunagar, Kankaria and Shah Alam.

When Fernandes tried to pacify them and called for peace, the crowd shouted back asking how could they maintain peace when the police were allowing large-scale arson and rioting. ‘‘And where police have been deployed, they are firing indiscriminately at everyone. How can there be peace in such a situation?’’ a resident of Bapunagar asked. At Shah Alam, stones were pelted at his convoy.

A visibly disturbed Fernandes said the Army was taking over and law and order would soon be restored. ‘‘One army brigade is already here and it is conducting a flag march. One more brigade will arrive and there will be enough forces to take control of the situation,’’ he said.

‘‘What is the police doing? They are just standing here and watching,’’ Arvindbhai, a retired soldier asked. Taken aback, Fernandes said, ‘‘I know, I know. But things will change now and please cooperate with the agencies to maintain peace.’’

BARBARISM DAY: BJP PROPOSED, DISPOSED

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

New Delhi: THE BJP had planned to observe Barbarta Divas (Barbarism Day) across the country to protest against the Godhra train massacre but shelved the plan with the death toll in the ‘‘revenge’’ attacks mounting.

The decision to ‘‘observe’’ that day was taken at a meeting yesterday at the party’s headquarters, attended by Jana Krishnamurthy. The leaders decided that Krishnamurthy, Kushabhau Thakre, a former party chief and general secretary Sanjay Joshi would go to Ahemdabad to condole the brutal burning of innocent women, children and kar sewaks at Godhra on February 27. And that they would announce that Barbarism Day be observed on March 5—the day the Lok Sabha is scheduled to discuss the Ayodhya issue.

The meeting dispersed but it had to scrap its plan within hours as reports of carnage began streaming in from Gujarat.

Krishnamurthy cancelled his plans to visit the state. It was decided that another meeting be called tomorrow. When contacted, party general and spokesman Sunil Shastri confirmed that observing Barbarism Day was one of the ‘‘proposals’’ before the meeting. ‘‘We discussed many things, we are meeting again tomorrow,’’ he said.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Raveena #198, ``...then destroy the religious zealots and hang them upside down...one way or another these people are a curse....whether fomenting riots or standing in the way of social progress and modernization...``

i agree.

``just by being there, they are hurting everyone...they are giving birth to religious nuts...they are diverting people`s attention away from education and development and toward religion...no matter how benign, god isn`t going to descend from his penthouse to build schools, roads, and hospitals...``

well, practically speaking, the problem doesn`t lie within mosques, churches, or temples. most people don`t spend more than half a day a week in these places. if they do congregate and do collective good like charity work, what`s the harm in that? some people need a support group system in their lives to become better people.

we`d do more good by weeding out the people who are susceptible to religious fanaticism and keeping an eye on them. i think the US is doing a great job keeping religious zealots in check these days. for one thing, the Mullahs in NY aren`t screaming as loud as they had been pre 9/11 and have been cutting their foot long, unhygeinic beards into well trimmed goatees. even the local Rabbis are keeping a low profile. but anyway, the point is, it`s now Pakistan and India`s turn to weed fanaticism out.

``the govt. of India is not advocating building the temple there...it is just trying to navigate a political minefield by dancing around the issue so it doesn`t lose ANY votes``

even if it costs livelihoods of innocent Indians, Hindus and Muslims? pretty silly government tactics if you ask me. the matter should have been resolved in the early nineties, when the violence started.

calling a pitiful government ``democratic`` doesn`t excuse it`s shortcomings. isn`t it better to tackle problems than worry about polls and votes?

isn`t that what a government is about?

harimau #175, ``Since Iranian pilgrims were set upon and killed in Mecca during Haj a couple of years back, you should set an example byconverting the Grand Mosque there into a hospital or school. Or, at least ban worship there.``

There have been no claims that the Hindu deity Vishnu was born in the exact spot of the Kaaba or that Jesus Christ ascended into the heavens from there: therefore it`s best to let the Kaaba stand, don`t you think?

you`re such a crazy nut, it`s quite delightful to read your posts :)

Harimou # too many posts all over

TIMES NEWS NETWORK [ SUNDAY, MARCH 03, 2002 11:55:19 PM ]



ONDON: Groups are protesting against the allegedly blasphemous artistic portrayal of pop star Posh Spice, her millionaire-footballer husband David Beckham and their son as deities.

The controversial painting by two British Punjabi Asians is said to represent the England football hero and his glamorous wife and son as the newest incarnation of the holy trinity, Parvati, Shiv and Ganesh.

The painting, which was specially commissioned for the Commonwealth Games in Manchester, north-west England later this year, is expected to travel to India soon after.

Bimal Krishna Das of the National Council of Hindu Temples told The Times of India he was ``deeply disappointed and shocked`` by the portrayal, even as the painters, Amrit and Rabindra Singh said ``the last thing (they) would ever do is insult the Hindu faith``.

The Singh sisters, who insist their India-inspired work is meant to ``challenge the eurocentricity of art``, formerly excited comment with a painting of the late Diana, Princess of Wales, as a combination of Durga and Britannia.

Amrit Singh told this paper the new Beckham-Posh Spice painting was ``a sign of the times and an interpretation of celebrity culture in the 20th century``.

She said, ``Shiva, Parvati and Ganesh are considered the ideal family in the Hindu world and the Beckhams are the ideal celebrity family``.

The controversial new painting is part of a series, which is heavily inspired by classic Indian art. The other paintings in the series include boxer Mohammed Ali as Mughal emperor Jehangir, who stands on a globe and fires an arrow at a spear bearing the American symbol, the eagle.

Another painting portrays long-haired French footballing hearthrob David Ginola as a beautiful Indian woman in a jharokha.

The Singh sisters, who describe themselves as ``students of comparative religion and deeply influenced by Hindu philosophy,`` say they are keen to take the Beckham painting to India, despite receiving ``a serious personal threat from a member of the Hindu community who was offended by it``.

They say they are considering similar paintings on the theme of celebrity cricket and spirituality in time for proposed exhibitions in Delhi, Mumbai, Bangalore and Kolkata in October

re: scout

{{ no, don`t destroy, that would just get more adrenaline pumping through the veins of religious zealots. }}

...then destroy the religious zealots and hang them upside down...one way or another these people are a curse....whether fomenting riots or standing in the way of social progress and modernization...

{{ as long as temples and mosques and their inhabitants aren`t hurting anyone and are minding their own business, leave them be. }}

just by being there, they are hurting everyone...they are giving birth to religious nuts...they are diverting people`s attention away from education and development and toward religion...no matter how benign, god isn`t going to descend from his penthouse to build schools, roads, and hospitals...

{{ but when places like ayodhya cause more harm than good, the government of India should NOT advocate the building of another place of religious worship there. that would be a sign of true secularism. }}

the govt. of India is not advocating building the temple there...it is just trying to navigate a political minefield by dancing around the issue so it doesn`t lose ANY votes...the govt. would be happy if the damn thing just went away and it didn`t have to deal with it again...downside of democracy...

harimau # 190

One would have no problem with your responding to urstruly or other votaries of ``Islamic conquests`` anyway you like, but your reply to ram-rahim seems so very out of place, unless I misunderstood it. It`s like hurting one`s own brother just because one is mad at the world at large.

re:Reply #: 182

satyavadi,

Assuming what you say is true and ISI did plan that attack, Indians easily fell for the trap set by the ISI. ISI may be emboldened to do such acts because it anticipates the reaction very well. We never seem to disappoint them (eg Bombay riot, now Gujarat riot). That is the answer to a hypothetical question.

sridhar

harimau

why you being so nasty bhaimerae? the ppl who set fire to the train amd those on rampages throughout ahmedabad are bad human beings..right now is the time for us supposedly educated and civilized ppl to come together..taking pleasure in the blot on indias face or in the muslims being outnumbered and killed is a gross mistake..remember human beings are being killed..no school, no college, no babies, no boyfriend, no marriage, no food, no nothing no matter hindu or musalmaan..ppl dieing..totally blown of the surface because of some bloody fools who dont have the sense to know right from wrong..and my babies stuck in the whole mess :(

farzana, where in hell are you? getting little worried, u not answering mails, phone...pls get in touch with somebody ASAP :(

Harimau

``He said you are a ``soovar bansi Rajput``.

``

Good one. This hate filled mullah can only be a ``soovar vanshi``. He doesn`t think we are humans, and we harbor exactly similar feelings for him.

satyavadi #182 The point is that by laying blame on foreign governments one is letting the domestic government off the hook. The middle east has a reputation of this combination of foreign conspiracy theories PLUS incompetent local authorities. The Pakistan government finds it convenient to blame RAW for bomb blasts in Pakistan and the Indian government finds it convenient to blame ISI for similar problems. You can either echo such government propoganda or you can - as is the case in more progressive countries - demand that the government do it`s job and track down the culprits, and to take responsibility for maintaining law and order for the future. It is too easy to simply point a finger across the border while failing to carry out their duties with respect to law and order.

raveena #181, ``i`m all for it...heck, destroy all temples and mosques and build schools in their place....``

no, don`t destroy, that would just get more adrenaline pumping through the veins of religious zealots. as long as temples and mosques and their inhabitants aren`t hurting anyone and are minding their own business, leave them be.

but when places like ayodhya cause more harm than good, the government of India should NOT advocate the building of another place of religious worship there. that would be a sign of true secularism.

Ref jazba99 #: 183

[bull is what modern people like u and mushy ruff feed the populace...a muslim will be a muslim and a hindu will be a hindu..no question about it

g luck with secularism]

I have no problem with you being a Muslim and me remaining a Hindu.

I do have very violent objections to you trying to convert me at the point of the sword, through economic coercion, etc.

I do object to you throwing beef over the walls into a temple complex just as you would have objections to me throwing pork into a mosque.

Once you guys do not respect other people`s personal beliefs, or incite violence against them, expect to be paid back in the same coin. With interest.

Ref ram-rahim #: 161

[During time like this, I wish Mrs. Indira Gandhi were alive.]

No need for that. She seems to have castrated you from the hell she is currently living in.

Ref Urstruly #: 164

[Once, one Hindu interactor told me that since I am a Sooraj Bansi Rajput....]

Go see an audiologist at once and get a hearing aid fitted.

He said you are a ``soovar bansi Rajput``.

Ref dost-mittar #: 165

[I am not trying to minimise the enormity and savagery of the unprovoked and apparently pre-meditated attack by the muslim mob in Godhra. It was also an unbelievably stupid act, especially since it was bound to revive the images of the massacred trains during the partition. What in God`s name were these people thinking? Couldn`t they foresee the immense damage their action would cause to their muslim brethren in Gujrat and elsewhere? Can anyone imagine Hindus or Christians doing something similarly stupid in Pakistan or Bangladesh?]

A more telling question is: can you imagine Christians doing something similar in India?

Because, the question would be: why are the Islamic thugs doing it?

Before anybody drags in the Sikhs, let me point out that that was specifically a question of secession from India.

So, by all means bring in Punjab of the 1980s. But be prepared to explain if Islamic thugs are seeking secession from India.

PS. I am just anticipating the moronic responses that are usual here and asking the question that would naturally follow as a corollary. I am NOT suggesting Indian Muslims are seeking secession from India; after all, they didn`t do that even in 1947, no matter that Pakistan was created.

Ref Pankaj #: 175

[Here is what an honourable man, the father of a victim of train massacre says:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=2577236

AHMEDABAD: They have lost someone close in the senseless violence, but they are not letting that affect their sense of right and wrong. They want peace, not revenge.

“I am extremely disturbed over what is happening in our area. I had pleaded with folded hands to all who came to my son’s cremation to please restrain themselves and maintain peace”, Govind Makwana told Times News Network on the day of besna of his only son Umakant, 22, who was burnt alive on board the Sabarmati Express.

“Killing other people is not the solution. Losing a son is shattering, and I want no father or mother to suffer from this feeling,” pleaded Govindbhai.]

Just read the Pakistani newspapers after some infiltrators are killed in Kashmir.

The mothers in Mirpur and Muzaffarabad are usually quoted as saying that they would happily send more of their sons to jannat by way of jihad in Kashmir.

And therein lies the difference.

It also explains the Islamic conquest of India.

Ref Akash #: 174

[Romair

``In my opinion, India should flood the cities where violence may occur with its Army``

I fully agree with you.]

Let us get the parameters correct here.

a) It is the Indian Army, not the Pakistan Army.

b) It is Gujarat, not some FATA in Pakistan.

Hence it took a couple of thousand troops to restore order. As opposed to the Pakistan Army and the Pakistan Government admitting they have no control over NWFP, most of the FATAs and along the entire Pak-Afghan border.

There was and still is no need to recall all of the forces stationed along the Indo-Pak border nor is it necessary to ``flood the cities where violence may occur`` with Indian Army troops.

But you are all free to ignore facts and continue beating your breasts in public.

I am thinking of suggesting that breast beating and hanging the head down in shame be included as Olympic sporting events. Since there is no special season for these events, we might as well have it in both the Summer and the Winter Olympics. For the first time, the fcuking Indians will sweep the an entire event and for a change Pakistanis will be cheering Indians.

Ref scout #: 177

[maybe that bit of land that is so ``sacred`` to Hindus and Muslims in India isn`t as ``sacred`` Indians think it is.

anyplace that has cost the innocent blood of hundreds of people should be left alone.

why not build a hospital or school there instead of some silly temple or mosque.]

Since Iranian pilgrims were set upon and killed in Mecca during Haj a couple of years back, you should set an example by converting the Grand Mosque there into a hospital or school. Or, at least ban worship there.

bull is what modern people like u and mushy ruff feed the populace...a muslim will be a muslim and a hindu will be a hindu..no question about it

g luck with secularism

my words are being proven each day....and each hour

:)

luv

arsalaan

scout, semipreciousme, rsridhar, tahmed321:

I am not trying to blame the ISI for the post Godhra revenge killing of Muslims. The Gujarat govt has failed miserably and I would have thought if the govt had the will and intent to act, there wouldnt have been any more than 30-50 deaths of Muslims (which would have been inevitable). So they are atleast complicit by the virtue of inaction and deserve to be sacked, different point that it doesnt seem that will happen.

Now coming to Godhra. It is plausible that the ISI was involved in planning this attack for several reasons that I have not so eloquently listed on the Anas Malik board. Doesnt the ISI already have a remarkable record in this dept - Bombay blasts of 93 remember planned by a General in the ISI (name metioned in a Khaled Ahmed article in the Friday Times)?

re: spout

{{raveena #173, ``why make a hue and cry about some silly mosque somewhere...``

why then make a hue and cry about some silly God`s birthplace somewhere?}}

a) i was responding to urstooly`s insult about why any place might be sacred to hindus

b) i didn`t make a hue and cry about ayodhya...i personally don`t give a $hit what exists there...

{why not build a hospital or school there instead of some silly temple or mosque.}

i`m all for it...heck, destroy all temples and mosques and build schools in their place....

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

The difficult times also bring out the best in the people.

HINDUS PROTECT MOSQUE IN BIHAR

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=175814

While Gujarat was burning, a small town in Bihar set an example of communal amity, when a group of Hindus got together and protected a mosque from being vandalised.

During Friday`s bandh in Muzzaffarpur, called by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad to protest the Godhra carnage, a group of hooligans tried to enter the Company Bagh mosque and vandalise it.

A senior police official, who was present on the spot when the incident occurred, said that when the word spread about the bid by the hooligans to enter the mosque, almost 100 Hindus converged on the spot from the nearby Goriamath and Sariyaganj area and challenged them.

A tussle broke out in which quite few Hindus were injured while guarding the mosque, but the hooligans had to beat a hasty retreat in face of stiff resistance, he said.

The difficult times bring out the worst in people.

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=175852

The corpse of the burned man won`t enter the official death toll until it is collected and delivered to the morgue. But by Friday night, local hospitals said they had received 65 bodies from the Naroda district, just one of several ravaged by mobs.

``They killed four Hindus and pulled their eyes out,`` said one resident, Ram Kirit Pannalal, 35. ``Then they stuck swords in their stomachs and split them. They started shouting, `Now we`ll show you!` ``

In the village of Pandavarda, near Godhra, a mob herded at least 30 people into a house and burned them alive Friday afternoon, police said.

In another attack, a crowd of about 200 swarmed six people walking next to a highway, about 30 miles from Godhra, and set them on fire.

And officials said today that a Hindu mob torched the Muslim village of Sardarpura late Friday, killing at least 27 people.

The fighting in Naroda began Thursday about 10 a.m., several survivors said today. A few buildings were still smoldering in the area, where several blocks of houses and shops were looted and torched.

raveena #173, ``why make a hue and cry about some silly mosque somewhere...``

why then make a hue and cry about some silly God`s birthplace somewhere?

maybe that bit of land that is so ``sacred`` to Hindus and Muslims in India isn`t as ``sacred`` Indians think it is.

anyplace that has cost the innocent blood of hundreds of people should be left alone.

why not build a hospital or school there instead of some silly temple or mosque.

satyavadi #157 So you think that the ISI planned Godhra. Actually this is the tip of the iceberg: Did you know that ISI has put implants inside retina as well, and are seeing everything that you see? So better keep your eyes closed at all times. Your mind is already closed, so ISI wont get any intelligence out of you, that`s for sure.

Here is what an honourable man, the father of a victim of train massacre says:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Articleshow.asp?art_id=2577236

AHMEDABAD: They have lost someone close in the senseless violence, but they are not letting that affect their sense of right and wrong. They want peace, not revenge.

“I am extremely disturbed over what is happening in our area. I had pleaded with folded hands to all who came to my son’s cremation to please restrain themselves and maintain peace”, Govind Makwana told Times News Network on the day of besna of his only son Umakant, 22, who was burnt alive on board the Sabarmati Express.

“Killing other people is not the solution. Losing a son is shattering, and I want no father or mother to suffer from this feeling,” pleaded Govindbhai.

.....

Rajendra Singh Thakur and his father were among the few who managed to escape death at Godhra railway station. They had miraculously crawled out alive from the blazing S6 compartment of the ill-fated Sabarmati Express, and would like to put the gory incident behind them. Vengeance is not on their agenda and with a good reason too.

“My 17-year-old brother Ramesh is no more. He could not get out of the train in time. My father and I walked out in utter confusion hoping that Ramesh would already have got out. But, he’s not more,” whispered Thakur looking remorsefully at his bandaged right arm. The youth has almost lost his voice due to the fumes inside the burning train.

Thakur now waits in the burns ward of Civil Hospital of Ahmedabad for the tension to die down before he can leave for his home in the Kadi area. He said, “I know now how much it pains to lose a dear one to mindless communal violence. I will not want the same fate for anyone else. Only the innocent like us get hurt.”

Romair

``In my opinion, India should flood the cities where violence may occur with its Army``

I fully agree with you. Army is the only institution that people, Hindus and Muslims can trust. Corruption is still an exception instead of rule in the army. Unlike police, it is not incompetent, nor is it communal. All the muslim organizations have demanded army rule to be imposed on Gujrat, and I support it.

PS I dont know whether you are honest or your intention by this post was to divert the attention of Indian army, so that you can infiltrate your jihadis to worsen the situation.

re: urstooly

stick to the point...you can bend over with some guy`s behind in your face 5 times a day at places ranging from your local mcdonalds to your very own bathroom...why make a hue and cry about some silly mosque somewhere...

re:Reply #: 143

Romair,

Pakistanis are doing introspection! That is a laugh. The only guy running your county and has been forced to introspect, is the supreme Mohajir. His introspection was done under the spell of Uncle Sam`s Wham! Rest of the events followed logically.

You say Pak has never elected extremists to power. It does not have to. Extremists are hand-in-glove with some Army brass who have extremist and pro-Taliban ideology. It was not for nothing that the supreme Mohajir has been trying to flush such elements from ISI and Army. Your argument about Pak not electing extremists to power will hold water if Pak truely had a representative govt and such a govt was respected by Army. Nawaz Sharief came to power with a 2/3rd majority, yet he was dismissed by the Army. So, let us not fool ourselves here. Army, headed by the Supreme Mohajir will always rule. This is how it has always been. When elections did happen, the powerful landlords have gotten elected.

BJP is a party of resurgent middle class. This class aspires to hold on to its traditions and is proud of its hindu identity. Nothing wrong in that. What is however wrong is to forcefully impose that value system on an unwilling population (and that includes muslims, christians, Dalits etc). BJP`s ideology does not go well with India`s secular traditions. That does not make it a communal party automatically. It won elections on a common manifesto, in coalition with a number of other secular parties. Building a temple at Ayodhya was not one on the agenda. Now that BJP has lost badly in assembly elections, it is trying to rake up an emotional issue (through VHP). This is bad and counterproductive for BJP in the long run.

VHP and BJP are part of the Sangh Parivar. If BJP says no, VHP cannot go ahead with its agenda. BJP does not want to be seen as saying NO as this might cause the party hindu votes. It is a tricky situation. Only a national all party debate and respect of law will help in solving this problem.

Sridhar

India earns universal infamy over riots

WASHINGTON: A nation that till last week was earning encomiums across the world for its religious and cultural diversity and its steady if unspectacular resurgence is now reaping universal infamy on account of its communal bloodletting.

The world media is splattering India’s Hindu-Muslim blood feud on its broadcasts and news pages amid questions about its political and social stability. Suddenly, India looks like an overblown version of the many violence-wracked small states of Asia and Africa.

The bloodbath in Gujarat has eclipsed the violence in Middle East, the India-Pakistan face-off, and even the Daniel Pearl murder in the western media. Almost all major newspapers and television networks have been carrying wrenching reports about the madness that has seized the normally placid if chaotic country.

The events are proving to embarrassing for Indians, Indian-Americans and Indophiles who wear the country’s diversity as a badge of honour. “It’s the last thing we needed right now. We were doing so well,” says Dr Naveen Shah, a founder of the American Association of Physicians from India and a Gujarat native.

The riots, following the fractured political verdict in Uttar Pradesh, has returned western experts on the region to the old theme of forecasting gloom and doom for India. “A combination of widening political cracks and increasing religious violence means India is entering another worrying time,” the respected Economist wrote this week.

Even before the elections and the riots, the India-Pakistan tensions had led former Presidential candidate Steve Forbes to question India’s cohesiveness. “India is not a homogenous state,” Forbes argued in a March 4 comment in his magazine, warning that any attempt by the ruling coalition to wage war could result in the country coming unhinged.

The comment, and the events thereafter, has come as a godsend to discredited Khalistani and Kashmiri separatist groups who had gone into hiding post 9/11 amid a universal distaste for violent movements. They have now resurfaced to amplify India’s current troubles to the western media, going as far as to urge Secretary of State Colin Powell to condemn “Hindu terrorism.”

The riots have also featured on the respected television programs like Jim Lehrer News Hour with grim but largely fair commentary.

“I think it (the riots) comes at a very bad time because I think India has worked to establish its identity both in the international community and with the United States as a secular, democratic, socially harmonious society and has tried to contrast itself with a theocratic, authoritarian, dysfunctional Pakistan,” South Asia scholar Harold Gould said on the widely-watched News Hour.

The US media was increasingly beginning to recognise this, often referring to prominent minority achievers such as Abdul Kalam, A R Rahman, and Azim Premji. The New York Times recently carried a perceptive feature about Indian Muslims, how they had disowned the fundamentalist school, and their sense of belonging to India.

“This kind of violence, if it ramifies, could really undermine considerably India`s entire attempt to establish what kind of a society it wants to be from this time onward,” Gould said.

Richard Lariviere, an academic from University of Texas at Austin and an expert on Indian religious law and Hinduism, put the events in perspective saying communalism in India is a societal cancer in the same way that racism is a societal cancer in the United States.

“From time to time there are remissions and one is even hopeful that you`re curing these terrible cancers, but then some awful event rips open the new wounds,” he said.

But Lariviere was critical of India’s political class, which instead of choosing touch economic prescriptions to rectify the inequities in an otherwise “an enormously wealthy country,” often articulated political slogans in terms of communal differences.

The Bush administration too has been sympathetic to the madness that has seized Gujarat without being judgmental. The State Department has however issued a travel advisory cautioning US nationals from traveling to Ayodhya or its surrounding areas.

“Thousands of Hindu activists demanding that the government allow construction to begin at a proposed temple site in Ayodhya, Uttar Pradesh, have converged there. Preliminary work in the area on prefabricated components of the temple has raised Hindu-Muslim tensions,`` the advisory said. ``Due to increased tensions and the high risk of violence, US citizens are strongly urged to avoid travel to Ayodhya or its surrounding areas.``

re:Reply #: 157

satyavadi,

Rather than blaming ISI, Indians should do a lot of introspection. Why do riots happen in India even after 50 years of independence? Why have we been unable to integrate muslims in our society the way other minorities have been integrated? Why do we have a police force that is unable to respond to such challenges and act in a partisan way when riots happen?

If your house is not built on sound foundations, it will not withstand the assault of a small breeze even. Then you cannot blame ISI.

Sridhar

re:Reply #: 144

Romair,

Army`s function is to defend country`s border, though in India Army has often been used for Internal security matters (like riots)and during natural calamities (like floods and earthquakes). Army is not supposed to be used for internal security. We have police, RAF (rapid action force), CRPF (central reserve police force)- all for this purpose. I wonder what RAF was doing during this riot. It was supposedly created for a situation like this one.

Riots have been happening for the last 50 years off and on, almost always triggered by some event and taken advantage of by vested interests. As always, poor people and innocents have suffered.

Army should not be moved from its present position at the borders. It assumed that position following grave provocation to our national security. That single act of attack on the Indian parliament has more security implications than the Gujarat riots. Latter will be controlled, as they usually are, by police and Army. For Army to move away from borders, Pak has to fulfil the conditions that have been set forth by India. In this, India is one with BJP.

Sridhar

AAmir #160

I mean more the people like the police, politicians that are letting it happen, or worse engineering it, not the mob itself - surely they can stop it - apparently the mob are NOT locals but trucked in from outside Ahemdabad and incited to do this by someone. WHO - they have to find them and make an example. The walled city is peaceful where the communities know each other - the killing is going on outside.

satyavadi # 157

…sigh…i’d ask you what you were smoking, but sadly yours is a mindset only too common in this part of the world….

satyavadi #157, ``For motives everyone can understand, its not beyond the ISI/Pak Govt to have planned the massacre in India.``

well that`s convenient. blame your neighbors for your problems. in any case even if Pakistan or Timbuktu planned a conspiracy against India at this moment, doesn`t it lie in the hands of the Indian government to curb the violence?

Take responsibility before pointing fingers at Pakistanis.