Memories of December 6th

Text of Joint Appeal For Peace

EW DELHI: Following is the text of the joint appeal by Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, leaders of various political parties to the people of Gujarat.

``We the leaders of various political parties, along with Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee and the Leader of the Opposition Sonia Gandhi, appeal to the people of Gujarat - to Hindus, Mumlims and those belonging to other communities - to maintain peace and communal harmony. We urge them to isolate the perpetrators of violence and defeat the sinister designs.

It is our collective responsibility to promote brotherhood and national unity at all costs. We also appeal to the people of other states to maintain peace and communal harmony.

The Prime Minister assures the people that the Central Government would deal firmly and effectively with the situation in Gujarat and elsewhere in the country. All of us expect the state governments to do the same.

Prime Minister, Atal Bihari Vajpayee

Sonia Gandhi, Congress

I K Gujaral, former Prime Minister

Home Minister, L K Advani

Minister for Parliamentary Affairs, Pramod Mahajan

Jana Krishnamurthy, BJP President

Dr Manmohan Singh, Congress

H K S Surjeet, CPM

Yerran Naidu, TDP

Mulayam Singh Yadav, SP

Mayawati, BSP

A B Bardhan, CPI

All you journalists in India - is it possible to compile the name, photos and biographies of all the children that died in Gujrat ? I wish someone would take out full page ads in all the newspapers in Gujrat with their pictures and stories to shame those people who are doing this or letting it happen. Just don`t want them to be nameless statistics ... if only ordinary people could see their faces maybe it might make them stand up to the mobs (who are these people anyway??? do they set fire to houses or trains and then go home to eat their dinner and go to bed ?) and stop the carnage another time.

tahmad# 138

Hindu gods have a bad habbit of being born at several places, simultaneously. For example, Ram is also alleged to have born at some 11,000 other places as well. Incidently, most of these 11,000 (11,000 is not a figure of speach, its based on actual claims)places are either Mosques or the property owned by the Muslims. If Hindus could decide that Babri Mosque is the only place where Ram was born and none other, then I think Muslims of India should be generous enough to hand over this property voluntarily as a gesture of good will.

Dost-Mittar #131 I dont think anyone ``deserves`` riots of the kind that took place in Gujerat. It is all too easy in a developing country to pull together a mob, given the high number of unemployed or underemployed people. Personally, I think since Babri masjid is gone in any case (and a loss of cultural heritage for future generations regardless of religion, like the Afghanistan Buddhas), logic would say that the muslims in India may as well forget about it - there is no shortage of space on God`s good earth to worship. The problem of course is pride and emotions and so forth. The best solution imho would be to build an ``Interfaith Meditation Hall`` where hindus and muslims and people of other faiths could come and pray together for peace on earth for all people.

I had suggested this before on chowk, but did the Indian government pick up on this idea placed before such an august forum as chowk? Noooooooo :-)

harimau #132 you write ``The reason you don`t like me ``. It would take a lot more than you can say on chowk to make me start disliking anyone. I dofeel sorry for people like you and the mindset you have to live in, but no - I dont dislike you. It`s just your half-assed posts and your demonstration of the one-man ``mob mentality`` (e.g. when you ask me the question ``who started the current riots in Gujarat, Hindus or Islamic thugs`` - as if I or anyone with a brain would give a damn who started it) on chowk that I like to get worked up when I have nothing better to do.

PS Your calling me names is really witty. Reminds me of the dumbass in the movies trying to impress his girlfriend with his sense of humor by sticking a pencil up each nostril. You should try that sometime, or perhaps your buddy ali1 can suggest some other body cavity for this exercise.

viz BJP and VHP

Today I think ROmair is right, the inmates are running the asylum.

The riots, violence, and killing anywhere in the world are really sad and bad.

These days I`ve been reading up on Buddhism which I find has many similarities with Islam, except that Buddhism is not a religion, it is really a way of life, an attitude, more individual oriented, as opposed to group oriented. There is one concept which I found very interesting and not in Islam (at least in the exact description of the concept), that of achieving nirvana and releasing oneself from the cylce of re-births... Anyway, its alot to explain here, but in short, just like matter, life force also mutates into something else upon death and new life i.e. birth is the possible re-emergence of previous life forces, but I`m digressing again... The way to achieve Nirvana is to be a good person and the book explains the core five precepts, the eightfold path etc. (fyi: I`m all new to this stuff). Now if you are not a good person, and do the ultimate sin i.e. take life or kill, it works into the equation and you come back as a rat or a lower life form (or in Semitic religions you go to hell, either way you are meant to believe that your spirit/life force suffers in some way)- This is the Karma that spirits/life forces carry with them through death(s) and birth(s).

What I`m trying to get across here is that the people trying to stop violence, bring peace, even if they are unable to or die trying are winners in all faiths, whereas the people who aggravate the situation or cause hatred violence are the losers in all faiths. And that even though life is precious, good and evil supercede life and we carry their effects either into our next life, and/or are answerable for them on judgement day.

This takes care of believers, for atheists, the advice may be to stay out of harm`s way, cause maybe this life is all you got, and who knows what happens after death, if anything. Just try not to be too much of a coward or meanie,since you belive there is no accountability.

Random thoughts. BTW the book`s name is Radiant Mind for those interested.

The riots, violence, and killing anywhere in the world are really sad and bad.

These days I`ve been reading up on Buddhism which I find has many similarities with Islam, except that Buddhism is not a religion, it is really a way of life, an attitude, more individual oriented, as opposed to group oriented. There is one concept which I found very interesting and not in Islam (at least in the exact description of the concept), that of achieving nirvana and releasing oneself from the cylce of re-births... Anyway, its alot to explain here, but in short, just like matter, life force also mutates into something else upon death and new life i.e. birth is the possible re-emergence of previous life forces, but I`m digressing again... The way to achieve Nirvana is to be a good person and the book explains the core five precepts, the eightfold path etc. (fyi: I`m all new to this stuff). Now if you are not a good person, and do the ultimate sin i.e. take life or kill, it works into the equation and you come back as a rat or a lower life form (or in Semitic religions you go to hell, either way you are meant to believe that your spirit/life force suffers in some way)- This is the Karma that spirits/life forces carry with them through death(s) and birth(s).

What I`m trying to get across here is that the people trying to stop violence, bring peace, even if they are unable to or die trying are winners in all faiths, whereas the people who aggravate the situation or cause hatred violence are the losers in all faiths. And that even though life is precious, good and evil supercede life and we carry their effects either into our next life, and/or are answerable for them on judgement day.

This takes care of believers, for atheists, the advice may be to stay out of harm`s way, cause maybe this life is all you got, and who knows what happens after death, if anything. Just try not to be too much of a coward or meanie,since you belive there is no accountability.

Random thoughts. BTW the book`s name is Radiant Mind for those interested.

Ref Mullah321 #: 118

[No one has used the opportunity to moralize (except ali1) or to act like one of the mob (except harimau) (and hopefully they will learn something from the others on chowk).]

Did Harimau keep scores? Did Harimau egg anybody on? Harimau simply laid out the realities including the high probability that more Muslims will be killed than Hindus. Harimau also made the careful distinction between Islamic thugs (of which you are one, no matter that you are wearing the sheep`s clothing from the bakra that you recently offered up to Allah) and ordinary Muslims.

The reason you don`t like me is simple: you cannot answer the facts I present here. So, let me ask the question: who started the current riots in Gujarat, Hindus or Islamic thugs?

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tahmad 109: ``I also think you are wrong in thinking that religious extremists are more more dangerous in India than in Pakistan.``

There are a lot of things in Pakistan that are more dangerous than their equivalents in India. Feudals being one of them. Politicians being the other. However, Pakistani religious extremists do not fall into this category, due to the following reasons:

- They have never been able to get any elected power. Even the mainstream religious parties (what to talk of the extremists) in the last election won less than 1% of the seats. They have been furthur defanged due to the Bachelors degree requirements and the additional women`s seats.

- Pakistan has a far less religiously diverse population than India.

- Traditionally, Pakistan`s religious extremists target various Muslim sects, and not people of other religions (the recent Church killings were the highest no. of Christian deaths ever, I believe).

- There is no controversial issue like Ayodhya in Pakistan.

- The current actions of the Pakistani govts. has put the religious extremists completely on the retreat.

- Most importantly, they are not running the country.

It is very important to carry out objective factual discussions on this. Not touchy feely discussions, nor hate based discussions. I think you are being too touchy feely. When I say that Pakistan`s religious extremists are not as big of a threat, I am not trying to say that Pakistan is superior, nor am I stating that Pakistani extremists are better people ((I have infact been arguing against this in a discussion with another gentleman, who attempted to prove that Hindu extremists were better than Muslim extremists). I am just stating that in the current social conditions, India`s consequences due to religious nationalism or extremisms, is far higher than Pakistan`s, due to the factors described above. And that Indians should realize that.

Obviously, all negative forces should be defanged. But one has to define their impact in correct proportions. To me, the most powerful threat to Pakistan are the feudals. And the most powerful threat to India is the electoral control religious extremists enjoy. If India becomes a feudal society, or if the JUI or Sipahe-Sehaba form the majority govt. in Pakistan, then the two scenarios will be reversed.

It is good to see some objectivity on this board. People accepting their own faults, and others not trying to take advantage of the situation. If one only relies on facts and logic, regardless of nationality, religion etc., the problems and solutions become obvious.

What is happening currenly in India may have serious reprecussions in the future of India. And whatever happens in India has effects in Pakistan. Pakistan has put police around Hindu religious sites. This should be enhanced. There is no point in sending police after the fact.

I have been a supporter of Vajpayee, and an opponent of people like Advani and Fernandes. Vajpayee generally has a clean local record in India, while Advani and Fernandes have dubious ethical records. However, the behavior of Vajpayee and Advani seems to be looking more and more like a good cop/bad cop scenario.

Vajpayee needs to take a major decision, and get rid of Advani and Fernandes (the later was removed earlier and then called back). If someone in Vajpayee`s own cabinet has been making statements, again and again, about the Mandir construction, then he has to be held responsible for this violence. The problem with removing Advani is that he is the actual leader of the BJP, and by removing him the BJP will lose its loyal support (it already seems to be losing its support on the peripheries).

The only solution is for Indians to completely vote out the BJP (I had been quoting for a long time from their own website, pointing out that sooner or later, something was about to give). Is that possible? BJP is still the most popular single party in India. Within ten years, it went from less than ten seats in the Indian Parliament to running the country. It seems to be more of a phenomenon than a party. A BJP in opposition is going to be more dangerous than a BJP in power, because in opposition, it will not have to satisfy coalition partners, and will thus become even more loyal to its hardline followers.

Pakistan experienced very strong economic growth in the late 50s and 60s. Pakistan was the model emerging state, taught at Harvard. Yet in 71, Pakistan split into two countries. Social cohesion is more important than economic growth for countries. India seems to be experiencing what Pakistan experienced in the 60s, i.e. strong economic growth with social fissures.

I think Indians need to vote the BJP not only out of power, but out of opposition also. If they do not do that, then situations like the current one, will keep occuring, and the common Indian who votes for the Advani leaderships will have to take responsibility. The second thing that needs to happen is for the non-BJP and non-VHP Indians to stop the construction of the Mandir. If the Muslims try to do it, their will be more violence. If the Muslims don`t do it, it will be an acceptance of social defeat by them. More and more mosques could get torn down.

The silent majority of Pakistan spoke out in great numbers under the leadership of Musharraf. I think the silent majority (if it is a majority, and not a minority) needs to take control of the Indian social situation. If it doesn`t, then the consequences will be far worse than the consequences of a similar situation in Pakistan.

P.S. Since I have already stated that Pakistanis are inferior to Indians in all aspects, lets keep the debate on the concerned issue.

Reading the posts on this and the top board after the Gujerat riots, I am proud to see that there are mostly expressions of sorrow among both the Indian posters and the Paki posters at these riots. No one has used the opportunity to moralize (except ali1) or to act like one of the mob (except harimau) (and hopefully they will learn something from the others on chowk). With this kind of a mature, humane response from those who do not have the excuse of poverty for any communal or nationalistic hatreds, there is hope indeed of better years ahead for the subcontinent.

NHRC notice to Gujarat over riots

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow.asp?art_ID=2460779

Kuch nahin hoga eiska

The Modi goverment has totally failed to protect lives in Gujrat. The goverment must resign immidiately and central rule should be imposed in Gujrat. And where the heck are the dammed CRPF, Army?

A disillusioned Indian