Memories of December 6th

ferz:

ambivalence…that is what this boils down to..doesn’t it?..am reminded of a mural I saw recently in vernasi…painted near the dhobi ghat…approximately 100x60 feet…two buildings that resembled the twin towers and an oversized plane crashing into one…there were five of us in the boat…in the calm of dawn…sky lighted but sun yet to appear…the peace broken by the regular motions of the oars and the sounds of distant chants and incantations…who painted this? why is this here rene wanted to know…why m also echoed…(am sure some smart chowkies would decipher it for us)…I felt ambivalent…

…babri mosque…nurtured into a dichotomous enigma...leaving no room for objective interpretation/s…almost!

…one encouraging sign I witnessed recently…the beasts of obscurant fundamentalism are being reined in slowly…the freedom to grow like weeds and hide behind religion being debated and exposed…in pakistan...

…sadly…I did not see the same urgency or necesssity for this beast to be identified and curbed in india…save by some brave souls…perhaps maulana thackeray is not a national threat yet…and they may perceive his exhortations as regional hiccups…

…allan fakir has sadly passed away…but we can all benefit by recalling his unique rendering of …’allah hee allah kar bhaiyya…allah hee say dur bhaiyya”…

bspnd,

temporal

re: the article

Farzana,

Here we go again. Another controversial topic, this time the oft-repeated BB-RJB issue. No doubt you have stirred a sympathetic cord with people from across the border. This thread will no doubt be again flooded with Umairs and Alis. ``Aha, did we not say that before. The muslims are never well treated in India``, they will cry out.

So, what is the point? One mosque was destroyed by some freaks from the lunatic fringe. They had to hire hoodlums to do it. BJP could not even have the courage to own it up openly. Now, ABV says it is all with the Supreme Court. Why not wait what the court says?

Why do you always discuss such contentious issues? Why not write about illitracy among muslims in India, or lack of leadership or why they cannot say no to the controversial muslim laws that govern their lives? Why only discuss demolition of one mosque? Why not discuss why more than hundred temples were destroyed in Pak for one mosque destroyed in India? Why not discuss what loss of Kashmir (if it happens at all)would mean for the muslims in India?

I said it before and i will say it again: you suffer from some sort of persecution complex. As if the hindus in India are out to get you.

Why do you discuss Bal Thackeray again? This guy, most of hindus agree (exclude most in Maharashtra), is crazy. He has no popular political support today, although he can be a nuisance if he so desires. He does not represent majority hindus. So, why the infatuation with him?

``Did Lord Rama want the mosque to be brought down?``. The answer is no. Rama`s existence is in a remote past. He would not have wished the mosque destroyed. He is considered an Avatar and if you know the concept, he is God himself coming down to earth in human form. He would have seen the mosque as a temple dedicated to himself. Only men make the distinction between places of worship. For sages, prophets and avatars, these are all the same.

``Do 800 million Indians want a theocracy with the license to carry trishuls?``.

No. Which is why BJP has received a thrashing at the assembly polls. ``It is economy stupid``, the common man seems to say. Anyway, Bajrang Dal, VHP do not represent majority Indians, although, like the Shiv Sena, they have a nuisance value.

``Is this a backhanded compliment to Western gun culture, or is it indigenous boredom projecting itself as righteous anger?``.

I don`t know what you mean. It is a hypothetical question. I have no answers.

Why are you so impressed with this guy Berglund. Just because he happens to be an American author. Has he any scholarship? How much research has he done on social situations in India? He thinks riots in India are some form of mental catharsis. And he bases this observation on Bal Thackerays speech? How much more pathetic can one get?

``Sure, if after 8000 years the majority of the populace can stop worrying about stray mosques and bearded gentlemen and of being overtaken by 14 per cent of the population, then the minority too can stop being bothered about its identity.``

The majority hindus do not suffer from an identity crisis. The whole of India is dotted with mosques. As of today, i know of no conspiracy to destroy these mosques. VHP does not represent the majority. In USA, Louis Farrakhan openly defies the whites. His speech is shown in C-Span. He, like the VHP, represent the fringe. Do not give them more importance than is their due.

``Unlike the saffron lot that gathers around oases, I can feel the hot desert sands underfoot. Yet I choose to walk. And feel the heat.`` Poetic and pathetic. You seem to take every assertion of Hindu identity as something against muslims. If you visit South India (especially Tamil Nadu and Kerala), you will see the landscape dotted with temples. In T.N, every street has a small temple. Still, few riots ever happen between muslims and hindus in that part of the country. Some of the most affluent muslims hail from South. Hindus are not threatening your identity. It is all in your mind. Get out of that mindset.

Allan Fakir, the Sufi singer was wrong. Babar did not have the intellecual prowess to match his physical prowess. His grandson was however in a different league and did that empire proud. But not Babar. It is impossible to conceive of a place like Ayodhya devoid of a massive temple. Ayodhya is mecca to millions of Indians. Surely, they would have built a massive temple in some remote past. Like any other muslim bararic invader, Babar thought it fit to demolish this huge temple and erect a mosque. He was only faithfully following what the turks and Arabs had done before him. Why else is it called a Babri Masjid.

Are you denying that muslim invaders did not vandalise/destroy temples? This was like a sacred mission for most of them. If a Hindu majority India destroys one mosque to reclaim what it considers a holy site, you protest. Why do the muslims in India not graciously accept a temple at the site. This would create so much goodwill for muslims among the hindus that it would actually strengthen secularism. But then there is no leadership among Indian muslims. We only hear Syed Shahabuddin and Shahi Imam. Where are the saner elements? Perhaps there are none.

I, personally am against the demolition of the mosque. It was a political act to garner votes by BJP and was a reaction to Mandalisation of politics by V.P. Singh (who was trying to divide hindu votes on caste lines). I am also against any attempt by VHP or any other group to build a temple. We should all await the Court verdict. Even muslims have reposed confidence in our judiciary.

Sridhar

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[Did Lord Rama want the mosque to be brought down?]

No. Not at all. Even if Rama said something like that, we all know that Sage Valmiki wrote the Ramayana and so it would not be Lord Rama`s words, immutable for eternity. Thus, Hindus have an obligation not to destroy mosques.

On the other hand, we do have the Koran calling for the smashing of idols and idolaters. So Muslims are fully justified in demolishing any temple, church, synagogue or vihara. After all, they are carrying out Allah`s instructions, as detailed in Life`s Little Instruction Book. And didn`t Prophet Muhammad himself smash idols and destroy temples and aren`t all Muslims required to follow his exemplary life?

Wonderful logic; but FartsAnna, we know not to expect anything better from you.

[Do 800 million Indians want a theocracy with the license to carry trishuls?]

How nice. The 800 million Indians I presume are the 80% Hindu population who want a theocracy but the 150 million Muslims of India are secular! Even Imam Bukhari of Jumma Masjid who called Shabana Azmi a courtesan is secular. The Muslims who demanded that Muslim men`s right to treat their women as come-buckets and `talaq talaq talaq` them without alimony and succeeded in getting the Supreme Court overruled on the Shah Bano case are secular. Those Muslims who call for the Muslim`s right to 4 wives at a time are secular. Those who want the Sharia to apply to Muslims in civil matters but not in criminal matters where they may end up losing life and limb are secular.

Oh, perhaps the 150 million Muslims are not Indians in your opinion. Just like you used to separate out the Kashmiris from the rest of India.

[Is this a backhanded compliment to Western gun culture, or is it indigenous boredom projecting itself as righteous anger?]

Would it meet your approval if Indians started carrying around Kalashnikovs as they do in Pakistan instead of trishuls?

[They pointedly ask about the Muslim identity crisis, “Isn’t there going to be an end to it?” Sure, if after 8000 years the majority of the populace can stop worrying about stray mosques and bearded gentlemen and of being overtaken by 14 per cent of the population, then the minority too can stop being bothered about its identity.]

There was a time when the minority was 30% of the population. A tiny portion of that minority, led by fanatics who called themselves the All-India Muslim League and by a man who was filled with hatred and blind ambition, caused not just the loss of territory to India but the loss of half a million lives and the uprooting of millions of people. Women who happened to be Hindus who were trapped in Muslim-majority provinces were sold off like cattle to Pathan and Uzbek tribesmen from Afghanistan and Central Asia.

But this was just in 1947. For a thousand years, similar indignities had been heaped on the hapless people of India because they refused to give up the faith of their forefathers. Now, shameless converts like you are telling us not to learn from the history of Islamic thuggery. The minority that did not have the slightest hesitation in pillaging, raping and murdering innocents not only asked for protection but for a separate country where they could further persecute their minorities. Not only that, such a nation has sworn eternal enmity to India because India is a Hindu-majority nation. Have the Indian state visited upon its Muslim nations even 1% of the injustices heaped upon its majority during 1000 years of Islamic thuggery? If you are so afraid of retribution now, why weren`t you afraid of retribution on the Day of Judgement from Allah?

We have had enough of this claim of innocent victimhood by thugs who want to whitewash history. You do have a choice: participate as equal citizens in the building of a new India or stay in your own mental ghetto. The third choice of the physical ghetto called Pakistan has closed its doors forever in 1954.

Farzana you are really

Excellent ,Superb & beutifull.

http://www.cybernoon.com/question/farzana.html

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Reply Farzana:

```On my first visit as a tourist, I had the impression that Indians act as if they are a brief but major statement to existence, and the rest of us had better put up with it since there is no understanding that statement.”`

## Sometimes it takes an outsider to discover what is so obvious within us. What`s worse is when this purported depth translates into a laughable shallowness that doesn`t get us anywhere. Living in the present or the real world has never been our strength as Indians.

* * *

``Come on brother, they said, drop your pants. Let me see who you are – Hindu or Muslim. Accordingly, I shall like you. It does not matter whether I hate your face or the lice in your hair, the glint in your eyes and the biases in your mind. That one thing shall decide your fate.``

## I have a friend who lived in Bandra (E) very close to where the sh1t was hitting the furnace. His name was Sameer (acceptable to both sets of hooligans), could recite Gayatri mantra (difficult for an M.Comm, you`ll agree) and ---wonder of wonders --- was circumcised for medical reasons as a kid. We joked about how ``safe`` he was. The fear was never acknowledged. Unmanly.

* * *

``But, should I? .... Why don’t I just gather you in my arms and wipe your tears and have you wipe mine, and we munch peanuts and watch the sunset as the sky turns a pink of salami, which I am prohibited from eating and you can and do when I am around, and I don’t mind. Because you are you and I am I, and that is what we love about each another? So buckle up.

And forget about the insanity.``

## Amen to that. Sense shall prevail, eventually.

* * * * * *

Meanwhile here`s an interesting extract from today`s Mid-Day. A look into the mind of a kar sevak. Read and reflect. This is the great Hindu culture in action. It`s laughable because the real reasons for young Hindus from across the land eagerly going to build the temple has little to do with Ashok Singhal`s assertions on correcting a historical misdeed, however valid it may be. My guess is the young karsevak is still upset that dirty Muslims in his locality slaughter and eat cows and goats in full view of all. Sad really....

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

A peep into the psyche of Ram Mandir activist

By: Annie Zaidi

February 27,2002

* * * * * * * * * * *

Criteria for selection to Bajrang Dal (Poster`s note: for Ayodhya Karseva)

* The candidate must be a Hindu male between 18 and 30 years.

* He should not have political ambitions.

* He should not have a criminal record.

* He should be able to make himself available at a short notice.

* * * * * * * * * *

Trishul-dhari Hindutva-vadis will shortly be Ayodhya-bound to build the Ram temple. Mumbai Bajrang Dal activists say a 20,000-strong crowd is leaving from Greater Mumbai limits alone.

Who are these young cadres of the saffron brigade? What do they want? What drives them to build a temple on a disputed land in another state?

Mid Day spoke to a few Dal recruits in search of answers.

Yagnesh Rawal is Bajrang Dal head, Borivali district branch office. He mentions with pride that around 5,000 boys were recruited over the last few years. In fact, 2,800 recruitments took place last year.

He says, `` We received around 70 applications in the last two days. We have already chosen 482 people from Borivali district. The rest are being screened. We are not taking any breadwinners.``

He explains that those going to Ayodhya are bearing their own expenses and are being offered no compensation if injured or killed. In fact, candidates are organising travel reservations personally, instead of in groups, to avoid trouble with the police. `` The police are on the lookout for large groups and we run the risk of being halted if we go en masse.``

Bharat Soni (26) heads the Dal`s Bhatladevi Prakhand in Borivali district.

He joined the Dal in 2000 following a tiff with local butchers. Says Rawal, `` Bharat and his friends had protested against butchers cutting goats on the road. Hindus are vegetarians and it is offensive to them. The conflict that ensued caused him to search for an organisation that would help.``

Says Soni, `` This organisation is not political, so there is no pressure to do certain things. Besides, Hindutva is vanishing from our society and needs protection.``

Soni has recruited many young men from the area in the last two years. One of them is his friend Jatin Bela (24), who lives in a building in which all residents are vegetarians.

Both Soni and Bela hail from business families. Their future plans involve expansion of their family trade, but they proffer nothing more concrete by way of personal ambitions. Neither was involved with any social service before joining the Dal. Bela was passing out of college when Soni joined the Dal. Soon, persuaded by his friend, Bela followed suit.

Bela loves cars and cricket. He joined the Dal in 2001. During the 1992 riots in the city, he was a Std X student. `` I realised that we Hindus live in Hindustan, but in fear. That was when I began to feel the need to protect Hindu dharma. I perform puja every day. And whenever I pass a temple, I bow my head in respect.``

However, delve a little deeper, and neither Bela nor Soni have read any religious books, though they claim to be familiar with the Ramayana. Says Soni, `` My mother used to read the Ramayana and I used to hear her every day. I have not read any other religious book.``

Bela, however, is irritated by the question. `` What is there to read? We know most of whatever there is to know.``

Rawal agrees, `` The need of the day is not to become pandits through reading. The pandits are there to perform yagnas and ceremonies. Of course, I tell the boys to read a bit of the Bhagvad Gita everyday. But it is more important for them to be disciplined and work for the organisation.``

Which is?

`` We have to ensure that butcher shops have a curtain in the front so that passers-by don`t see the killings,`` says Bela.

Compared to this, Soni has grand plans: `` We have to fight all those who are against Hindu dharma, which is the greatest in the world. We will correct the wrongs.``

Which are?

``Cow slaughter. The things they teach in madrasas. Terror. Changing of caste. Converting to Catholicism. It is all wrong,`` says Soni.

And what is specifically wrong in your area?

`` Nothing is wrong yet, but Hindus everywhere are in difficulties,`` says Soni.

What is the biggest problem India faces at present?

`` What do you mean by that?`` asks Bela. When pointed out that the question is self-explanatory, he muses for a while and says, ` Politicians.`

What activity of the Dal he enjoyed most since recruitment?

`` On Bakri-Eid, I was posted at Dahisar Check Naka to ensure that no trucks brought in cows or bullocks. I enjoyed that.``

Does he have any Muslim or Christian friends?

`` Not really. I do know a few Catholics in the society, but there is no contact with Muslims. I suppose it is good to make friends, but there is no opportunity.``

Did he ever try to initiate discussions about religious conflict with people from other communities?

`` What is there to discuss? There is no point arguing because they will not understand.``

What are the immediate plans of the organisation?

``To construct the Ram temple in Ayodhya.``

Isn`t he scared of losing his life given the prevailing tension?

`` We will take the bullets if we need to. We are not scared. We have to do the work that comes to us, be it facing lathis or bullets.``

Says an office-bearer from Grant Road, Subhash Asher, `` A 100-day-long mahayagna has been organised. Kar sevaks from all over have been summoned. Everything depends on the situation. We will only follow the orders of authorities, like International Secretary Pravin Togadia.``

When asked about the Central government`s declaration that the temple will not be built without legal permission, he says, `` The Bharatiya Janata Party is not the government in Uttar Pradesh. We have nothing to do with the Central government. What will they do? Send us to jail? The construction will begin on March 15. The pillars are 40 per cent ready and arriving in Ayodhya. Nothing will stop us.``



© Mid-Day Multimedia Ltd.

This is terrible. I think the next holocaust of Indian Muslims is just around the corner-may be just hours away now. Today the NPR news reported that about 55 Hindu religious nuts were burned alive when the explosives they were carrying to the site of Babri Mosque exploded in a train near Gujrat. And of course it happened when they were exchanging insults with Muslims at Godhra railway station.

May Allah save you all from the tyrrany of these immoral, senseless murderers. Amen.

``Yeh Mandir aur Masjid ka jhagra khatum kia jayay.
Donon kay beech main Mekhana banaya jayay``

(Unknown source but heard from Anup Jalota)

Or in other words (hamidm) ``let us break out the
Merlot``.

Ras

arjun_m #3:

[…There can be no equivalence between islamic terrorists and hindu fundamentalists…]

---only an inconsiderate imbecile would find fault with this…

[… Call me when a thackrey goon flies a plane into a building full of non believers or bombs a building in a foreign country…]

---Maulana Thackeray is the home grown clone of Acharya Masood…he maybe a fundamentalist but he is also a goon and a terrorist… he has been judged by his peers…ask any mumbaikar who has suffered at his (or his goon’s) hands…

…innocent human lives are precious…whether they are taken ‘abroad’ or at ‘home’ …

…and a killer is a killer…and sane persons everywhere should use a similar yardstick…




urstruly #9:

[…Today the NPR news reported that about 55 Hindu religious nuts were burned alive when the explosives they were carrying to the site of Babri Mosque exploded in a train near Gujrat. And of course it happened when they were exchanging insults with Muslims at Godhra railway station…]

…this from the hindu:

Ahmedabad, Feb. 27. (PTI): At least 30 people, many of them `ram sevaks` returning from Ayodhya, were feared killed and 37 injured when unidentified persons attacked and set ablaze four bogies of Ahmedabad-bound Sabarmati Express train at Godhra railway station in Gujarat this morning, police and railway sources said.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01271809.htm

…if only we reflect and take three deep breaths rather than spew venom and throw more oil into a burning cauldron!

[…May Allah save you all from the tyrrany of these immoral, senseless murderers. Amen….]

…may She…save US all…amen!

regards,

temporal

Temporal

I stand corrected. NPR reported as such; heard the news in my car.

George Carlin refutes the claims by some that god is actually a woman. According to him ``no woman can fcuk up things like that`` (his words).

Good article Farzana.....

Some clarifications for those who are trying to legitimize demolition of Babri mosque by offering arguments of Islamic thuggary in mughal period.

b`cos....

* We are not living in the same period in which babar existed

* During the barbaric rule of babar and other oppressive Islamic rulers the laws prevailing were not of today’s day.

* Hindu rulers during that period were capable of posing a potent resistance to Islamic offenders which they didn’t.

* Destruction of Ram temple during Babar`s rule was just not a result of Islamic barbarism but also a result of gross failure on the part of native rulers who couldn’t defend themselves and succumbed to the offence in a most humble way.

So whatever happened in the past is history and we can not change that. And mind you history is not created by an individual, it takes shape with the events that actually happen during that period and everybody in that period is a party to it.

Today in independent India when all of us have solemnly resolved to abide by the prevailing law, it is definitely wrong if we try to act in the same way in which people used to act 800 years ago, even if we are trying to wipe out their wrongdoings.

Aalamgir

Farzana,

I thought this was brilliantly written. Especially the second half of the article. I wasn`t clear whether THAT was part of your 1992 piece, though.

Farzana,

I quite like what you wrote: a second partition (of Hindi and Muslim minds)...

Regarding Allan Fakir`s statement, I do not really believe that Babar built a masjid in HONOUR of Lord Rama!!! That is quite an ingenious explanation for a man who did plunder and destroy many temples.

Frankly, I do not understand the VHP and their types. What motivates them is not faith but hate and maybe, fear. I think the Hindu fundamentalists are not religious types, they do not follow Hindu religion or are even particularly knowledgeable of the scriptures. It was Nirad Chaudhri I think who mentioned that when he met Advani and other BJP types in London, he found that none of them knew Sanskrit. In contrast, I think the Muslim fundamentalist is more knowledgeable of his holy book and probably does pray five times a day.

``Sure, if after 8000 years the majority of the populace can stop worrying about stray mosques and bearded gentlemen and of being overtaken by 14 per cent of the population,...``

This statement betrays your ignorance. 8000 years ago, or say 2000 years ago, I would imagine Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh to have been Hindu/Buddhist regions. Were they not `overtaken` by zero percent of the population? Where are the Hindus now in these countries?

It is easy to say that VHP, Bajrang Dal etc should be stopped. I agree, but it does not take much to figure out they are bad for the country. What I would also like is for people to get out of denial - for the pseudo-secular Congress types, the Leftist and the Muslims of course to acknowledge that Muslims plundered and destroyed Hinduism`s holiest temples.

Farzana, Cheer up now!

Here is something to make you happy. Let us see if you condescend to shed some tears even if these are crocodile tears. Now, please spare that monologue from persecuted mind and give us detail justification for this honourable?, brave? act. Or perhaps you will now concentrate only on what happens AFTER the attack.

Regards

Up to 30 feared dead in Indian train attack

(Updated at 1300 PST)

AHMEDABAD: As many as 30 people were feared to have been killed Wednesday after an express train carrying Hindu activists was stoned and set on fire by a mob in a Muslim dominated area of India`s Gujarat state, a senior local official said.

Mob sets train ablaze in western India

(Updated at 1205 PST)

AHMEDABAD, India: At least three people were killed when a mob attacked an express train in the western Indian state of Gujarat on Wednesday, setting fire to several coaches and injuring at least 18 people, a senior police official said.

``We have confirmation of three dead, but there are reports that the toll could be higher,`` said the official in the police control room of the state capital, Ahmedabad.

The motive for the attack was not immediately clear, but the area where it occurred is Muslim dominated and the train (Sabarmati Express) was apparently carrying a number of right-wing Hindu activists from the northern town of Ayodhya to Ahmedabad.