Delhi University Politics

Ylh,

``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war``

What is the quote, Oh enlightened one!

#65 Stuka

That was a couragious post. I salute you!

In the context of what has happened in Gujarat, some men feed the beast within them by doing nothing.

#51 anNy

What you`re going thru i believe is universal. When you are completely dependent on your parents and family, there`s a great desire to please them, so you are more christian/hindu/muslim than they are and it gives them the feeling that they are doing a fine job of bringing you up. Where you`re now you`re questioning everything because you are independent (in spirit and emotion) and you want to examine your life. Late teens to early twenties is when rebellion starts and you strike your own way. Some get sucked back into being good c/h/m, etc., and others find their way. They get busy with their career, chasing lovers, trying to fashion a niche for themselves and so on. There`s a chance that you will completely bust out of the early influences in your life. But many folks, in their middle ages, try to strike a balance between their past and their present. Some hark back to their past with a vengence because they don`t believe the presence is not their making. (I`d say the hindutva nuts belong in this category. There may be other religious equivalents to this also.) If you never left your religion, past, chances are that in your late years you will become a more devout c/h/m, etc. I see this happen often enough. As to why religion is so attractive, it comes with a definitiveness, a certainty attached to it. In uncertain times, religion is a very convenient crutch.

(I`m making sure that my daughter is not brainwashed with any ideology. I want her to find her own way, whatever that may be. I just want her to have a strong confidence in herself.)

anNy:

“also sameersaab..your brothers in jamamatiness threatened me just today, less than 2 hours back..`khayaal rakhiyae warna phir tayaar rahiyae`..excuse me pls, if i have the sh!t beat out of them”

...have the shi t beaten out of them and fast….DON’T take their bull…(not that you would:))...i don’t know about karachi uni., but in punjab university they’re expelling these damn jihadis left and right…

SameerJB: Your replies are quite interesting. I had always wondered why you held such extremist views about religion. Perhaps now I understand. You were at one extreme at one stage of your life. Now you have gone to the other extreme to make up for your early days. This is like women who hang out with the wrong man/men, and then start hating all men, as a whole. Perhaps a middle of the road balanced approach is the best. Extremism in any direction is dangerous.

On the whole, it is your own business. But you need to stop blaming others and religion for your childhood problems. The actual problem was wrong decision making by you.

One thing I have always argued against is the role of religious fanatics and secular fanatics in our society. Both are extrimists and dangerous. And both try to gain their legitimacy through their addiction to religion. They spend their whole lives concentrating on it, using it furthur their own goal. One group attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``love`` for religion. The other attempts to highlight everyone as a hero, based on their, ``hate`` for religion.

In this hatred for each other, both groups completely lose sight of real concept of goodness and badness. The religionatics are willing to accept a corrupt rapist as thier leader as long as he proposes some sort of a Shariah. While the secularitics will support a corrupt rapist as their leader as long as he is a vocal critic of Shariah and of mullahs. Religion is the only identity of these two groups. Both at the opposite end of the spectrum, however. Both have a small peanut gallery that follows them diligently. I think if both groups stopped discussing religion as their respective solution and problem of mankind, the world would be a much better place. However, if they did that, they would lose their popularity with their small but dedicated audience.

My advice to you (if you want to take it) is to stop your obsession with religion. Don`t look at religion and the religious leaders as the cause of all of Pakistan`s problems. They aren`t. They are a cause of a small percentage. Everyone doesn`t throw intestines out on the street like you did. There are many hygenic Muslims also. Don`t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just throw your own bathwater out.

Don`t blame Islam and everyone who choses to follow it for the wrong decisions you made early in your life. Some of us were intelligent enough to see Jamaat-i-Islami for what it is, and not join it. If it has espoused such hatred inside you, against anyone (including Mullahs), then I am afraid it has succeeded in controlling your life, even now.

You are quite an intelligent person (you won`t find me saying this about too many people on this site; not even about myself). You are wasting your intelligent mind in your obsession with religion. Use your mind towards other constructive issues like tackling feudalism, social cohesion (figuring out ways for religious and non-religious Pakistanis living together). Any hate-based approach for or against religion is equally bad. Your stance has been that people should stop obsessing with religion. You may find that if you yourself stop mentioning religion in every comment, others will stop discussing it with you, also. However, of all the repliers on this site, your replies probably contain amongst the highest usage of the word, ``Islam.``

Now, if I could only figure out why you hate the military, so much. Were you rejected by any of the military academies as a teenager :-)

Dear AnNy: I wish I had the power or formula to protect you from self proclaimed thekedars of Islamic ethics and morality - the Jamaatias. If I had any hope for changing the attitude of Islam and Islamists in Pakistan, I would have certainly remained within the fold and worked from within. It was utter bankrupcy of the Islam inspired machismo male attitude that left me with no choice but kicking it out of my mind, heart and door.

It is much deep rooted in our society than many of us are ready to acknowledge, often using their election performance as a guage of their influence. I laughed when I read posts at chowk blaming ISI for doing this or that and many Pakistanis tending to believe that Musharraf will be able to eradicate Islamists from the society or ISI. It is not ISI alone. Former Jamaatias with college and university education have infiltrated almost every branch of power and influence. They are not ISI or working for any intelligence agencies, they are spies of Allah. All they have to do is look the other way when Jamaatias or other Islamists carry out illegal acts of violence or being disrespectful of the laws of the land. ISI may be very powerful in setting many events in motion but underneath a whole army of Allah is willing partner to Islamists and Fundamentalists activites.

I think I like you a tad more after reading your post #51 because you are at least on the right path. You are questioning in your own mind about the reason, importance, costs and effects of obsession of Jamaatias and Jamaatia-likes with nonsensical and bizarre Islamic moral and ethics codes related to women. Isn`t this what Socrates said 2500 years ago? Think and question. Just thinking and questioning sets you apart from the flock of sheeps of Allah who accept everything in the name of absolute submission.

Few days ago, I suggested to you that the most important thing in your life is yourself. Call it self love or loving the self but it is a nice principle in combination with humanism. If you feel more comfortable without covering elbows, so be it. Why should you be wrapped in a white blanket in the humid, tropical-like weather of Karachi and profusely sweating, literally, in the name of religion.

Myths are powerful ideas. They give a sense of belonging in tribal sense. Many nations and tribes coalesce around native myths. But taking myths of other people and thumbing down the throat is bound to be a constant source of friction and irritation within society with absolutely no rewards. What a pity! Hoping for fruition of Islamic system is better than Islamic system itself (Pakistan better than Taliban) and not hoping for fruition is much better than fruition in this case (secularism better than Islamic system).

dost-mittar and Stuka: Thanks for the complements. Punjabi hoaN da kujh te faida hey. Musalaman hoaN da kee?

Ah, the battle for anNy`s mind has begun...

For my part, I`ll quote Yogi Berra: ``When you come to the fork in the road, take it.``

re: ylh

{{You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.}}

bacchey, itna gussaa kyon? (i`d say it in arabic so you could understand it better, but i know only 3 languages, and arabic isn`t one of them.)

YLH

``You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war. ``

That can`t be true. The CIA did not even exist before WW-2, forget WW1. The predecessor of the CIA was the OSS headed by an Irish American called ``Wild Bull`` Donovan.

re: pankaj

{{Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc.}}

....you need religion to tell you not to shoot someone in the head? not to steal? or cause harm to people who have caused you no harm?...isn`t that just common sense?...if you are an educated person living in a civilized society, you don`t even have to know whether it is `right` or `wrong` as long as you understand that it will hurt you to hurth others...

Ylh:

You seem to be in a minority of one. So I think your viewpoint can be safely ignored.

SameerJB:

What a marvellous post. At least you have the excuse of coming from a conservative family, and your religion meant something to you.

In my case, I come from a liberal background and religion was there but not in abundance. I was communal through and through. My own religion did not mean much to me. But the feeling of my community being under siege which was fed by a lot of propaganda, created a feeling of immense hatred in me. Honestly, I have to be very careful even now, because I know the beast is within me. It was not individual Muslims that I hated. In fact the few I know I genuinely liked. It was the faceless Muslim, the traitor, the pillager, that image which scared me, and made it easier to hate.

It`s almost funny. I was an upper caste Hindu, kinda like the WASPs here, and yet I had this feeling of being the victim. The persecuted one. For me coming to America was a blessing. The diversity of people I have met, and the rewards of keeping a somewhat open mind, have really enriched my experience.

But I am very aware of one thing. It is easy to fall in this trap of blame and hate. I am still quite aware of my weaknesses in putting things in black and white. As I see it, awareness is half the battle one. The other half is a much longer slower process.

Binifer: You lived in Boston? Where?

The city has always been known as the ``Hub`` which is short for Hub of the Universe. An ode to Boston :

Hail the City of Boston

The City of Brahmins and Scrod

Where the Cabots talk only to the Lowells

And the Lowells talk only to God.:)

Rsaxena,

Don`t give atheists a bad name by associating your sorry ass with them. You know you are a fundamentalist Hindu Bigot and thats about it.

anNy,

There are problems with every faith. I know that most of my friends and myself are mostly `cultural` muslims so to speak. Whatever divinity there is in it, and I am certainly not an atheist, Islam in of itself was ideology that Muhammad used to motivate the Arab people into creating their own destiny and becoming one of the most successful empires of Medieval times.

In any event having doubts is never a bad thing. Infact Iqbal maintains that to get to `Illa` you have to go through `La`. Ofcourse much like you I still am stuck in illa ... not so much as a higher power... but as in the religion itself.

Stuka,

Precisely!

Bong Dongs,

You words are Very reminiscent of what the CIA told a certain fella by the name of Kemal in the immediate aftermath of the first world war.

anNy

``if she`s too tired at the end of a 12 hour day working upon one sculpture after the other and wants to sleep and misses namaaz, why will she go to hell? its not fair...WHY explain to me is music haraam..what bad can enjoying oneself and being transported to another world (nasha if u will)do if im not harming anybody? you have no idea how difficult it is even typing out this stuff...ill probably go to hell for this..is it because of something else?

``

You are asking yourself the right questions and one day you will find the answers yourself. Basically, there are two aspects of any religion: 1. an emphasis on a universal set of human values and

2. rituals, conventions, observances associated with it which are often a function of the culture and environment a religion was founded.

The first aspect is philosophical emphasizing morality in human life, and generally holds for all times. The second aspect is strongly time and situation dependent and subject to the influence of environmental variables on original conception of a religion. First aspect is usually common to most of the religions since almost all religions glorify honesty, truth etc. The differences between the religions are with regard to second aspect which is a cultural variable. Thus Hinduism glorifies the rivers Ganges and Indus since it evolved on the banks of these rivers while Islamic books carry with them an unmistakable impression of mores and traditions of a desert civilization. While a limit of four wives, no rate of interest etc may have been progressive and beneficial in a traditional Arab society of seventh century, their utility in modern times is questionable, at best. Similar points can be made about Hinduism and any other religion. Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc. but I disregard any attempt by religion to control my personal and public life that has little bearing on morality.

In my own code of morality, an act is immoral only if it hurts the interest of others and seriously interferes with their exercise of fundamental rights. Thus drinking in private and sleeping over it is not immoral, but drinking followed by beating your wife is. Similarly it is none of the other people`s business to object on what you wear as it doesn`t hurt them or violates their rights.

anNy

``if she`s too tired at the end of a 12 hour day working upon one sculpture after the other and wants to sleep and misses namaaz, why will she go to hell? its not fair...WHY explain to me is music haraam..what bad can enjoying oneself and being transported to another world (nasha if u will)do if im not harming anybody? you have no idea how difficult it is even typing out this stuff...ill probably go to hell for this..is it because of something else?

``

You are asking yourself the right questions and one day you will find the answers yourself. Basically, there are two aspects of any religion: 1. an emphasis on a universal set of human values and

2. rituals, conventions, observances associated with it which are often a function of the culture and environment a religion was founded.

The first aspect is philosophical emphasizing morality in human life, and generally holds for all times. The second aspect is strongly time and situation dependent and subject to the influence of environmental variables on original conception of a religion. First aspect is usually common to most of the religions since almost all religions glorify honesty, truth etc. The differences between the religions are with regard to second aspect which is a cultural variable. Thus Hinduism glorifies the rivers Ganges and Indus since it evolved on the banks of these rivers while Islamic books carry with them an unmistakable impression of mores and traditions of a desert civilization. While a limit of four wives, no rate of interest etc may have been progressive and beneficial in a traditional Arab society of seventh century, their utility in modern times is questionable, at best. Similar points can be made about Hinduism and any other religion. Thus I favor rligion only till it inculcates moral values in you like honesty, truthfullness etc. but I disregard any attempt by religion to control my personal and public life that has little bearing on morality.

In my own code of morality, an act is immoral only if it hurts the interest of others and seriously interferes with their exercise of fundamental rights. Thus drinking in private and sleeping over it is not immoral, but drinking followed by beating your wife is. Similarly it is none of the people`s business to object on what you wear as it doesn`t hurt them or violates their rights.