Why Are We Killing Ourselves?

vereesh #5: ``ok, let us take your very plausible ISI theory for a moment as true``

Vereesh, your comments seem to be inline with Advani`s comments:

````Here innocents have been killed. Like we ask them (Pakistan), does killing innocents in Jammu and Kashmir mean freedom struggle for them? Many innocents have been killed here (Gujarat), which is very unfortunate and this is what is terrorism,`` Advani said.`` (http://www.rediff.com/news/2002/mar/03train3.htm)

Considering the fact that Advani has been leading all this Ayodhya and communal nonsense. And considering the fact, he was/is wanted by Indian law, for leading the charge in the original Ayodhya tragedy. And considering that he has been stating over and over that the temple will be built, he is more responsible than anyone else.

Based on the above, don`t you think, perhaps, their is a slight microscopic chance that actually this is an internal problem of India, created by Indian voters by voting in the BJP. I know this maybe hard to believe for most Indians, India does have internal problem that are not caused by Pakistanis.

I assume the search is on in India, to find a couple of Muslims, beat them up, and have them make a statement that Pakistanis gave them money to do this (without allowing any international intelligence or human rights organization to intervene). Do you think such conspiracy theories are beneficial for India in solving its problems?

Let`s state for the sake of argument that there is a 99% chance that Pakistan did this. Would you be willing to agree that there is at least a 1% chance that it is India`s internal problem, created by people like Advani, who are voted in by normal Indians (indicating that they support the anti-Muslim policies of the BJP).

This was an incident waiting to happen. It didn`t just happen out of the blue. And on March 15, more incidences will happen. Vajpayee needs to fire Advani (which he can do easily), he needs to ban the VHP and lock up its provocative leadership (like Musharraf banned the Sipah-e-Sahaba), and Indians need to stop voting for BJPs and RSS (like Pakistanis do not vote for Sipah-e-Sahabas).

As long as Indians keep seeing a Pakistani hand in everything, their problems will just grow. The BJP got desparate for votes, and piled up troops on the Pakistani border (due to which it was only able to send 1200 soldiers to Ahmedabad). Now it may get desparate again, and start an all out war.

So many wars are results of ridiculous conspiracy theories, which people want to propogate just to pass on the blame, or to feel important.

P.S. do you vote for the BJP in elections.

In my opinion, anyone who votes for the BJP needs to take a fraction of the blame for the recent killings in India. The other solution, of course, is to blame it on the ISI (why do Indians blame things on ISI. Why don`t they blame it on Pakistan, as a whole. If you read my previous reply, you will find that it is not as easy for the ISI to work alone. If you want to blame this attack on Pakistan, then you should blame it openly on Musharraf).

ferozek #22: ``Gentlemen, the ISI link is based on a supposition and that is, it might be involved.``

One could draw a similar supposition about anyone and any organization. Maybe it was the CIA which did all of this. Or maybe Congress (I). Sonia Gandhi would certainly have a lot to gain.

Suppositions have to have some factual basis to them. Was any transmission recorded between an ISI agent and the people who carried out this whole tragedy? Were any papers found? etc.

Secondly, people have to have an understanding of how the ISI is structured and how it operates. If the above two do not exist, then it is not a supposition, it is a conspiracy theory.

temporal #23: ``or perhaps you can give me the benefit of doubt and forgive my intrusion as that of a naïve student who has spent some time reading up and discussing isi activites over the years``

Could you let us know what you have been reading, and whom you have been discussing with. That makes a lot of difference.

``power corrupts and absolute power…isi by its very nature does not operate in the open…it prefers to operate in the shade``

This is the point I am making. ISI does not have absolute power. Even the head of the ISI is no more than a serving officer, who is appointed their for a brief tenure of a couple of years. It is like stating that the corps commander has absolute power. The only person who has absolute power is the COAS in this whole hierarchy.

ISI is not like the CIA. It is not a independent institution. It is a part of the military like a fighter squadron, a ship or a corp is part of the military. It only has as much power as the Prime Minister (or Musharraf in this case) and/or COAS allows it to have. It only operates in the shade for you and me (that is what intelligence agencies are supposed to do), but not for the people it reports to.

``it is easy to overlook or disobey directives``

It is not easy to overlook and disobey directives in any military, specifically the Pakistan military (even Captains and jawans get court martialled for disobeying small orders, what to talk of major disobeying by Generals. Could you site some precendences?) The ISI and all other organizaitons have changed their direction as Pakistan`s political directions have changed. If they don`t, their head can just be fired, as can the various officers serving in the ISI.

So if you want to make a conspiracy argument (without fact), then your argument actually should not be that the ISI did this. Your argument should be that Musharraf ordered the ISI to do this. Since Musharraf has been consulting with political leaders, journalists, intellectuals, students etc. before making decisions, the actual argument should be, as follows:

Musharraf, after discussing with Pakistan`s intellectuals, journalists, religious leaders, students etc. decided it would be good policy to blow up the train. He then discussed all of this with the corps commanders (all military decisions are made at corps commander meetings, after a great deal of consultation). They agreed. So he ordered the ISI head (Lt. Gen. Ehsan-ul-Haq whom he just appointed from Corps Commander Peshawar) to plan this whole operation.

While both your theory and mine are conspiracy theories, the sequence of events I have presented is actually how things work, so my theory is more likely than yours.

Amit #17 Your post is on the mark when it points to religious fanatics (hindu or muslim) as being a major problem for society (Indian or Pakistani). My heart is with your suggestion for banning religious parties (as in Turkey) like BJP in India or Jamaat i Islami in Pakistan, but I dont see that happening. Perhaps a better solution is as Robert Kennedy had suggested to rid the US of the Mafia: ``If you catch them spitting on the street, you arrest them``. This requires a will on the part of the government - and that will requires good leadership and also some kind of pressure on the government to lock up the religious fanatics. In the meantime the best we - those Indians and Pakistanis who desire only to see peace and prosperity in that part of the world - can do is to join hands as one on this issue of religious fanaticism. The vast majority of posts by people on chowk have indeed been along these lines (with just a couple of exceptions where the poster is either in denial and pointing fingers towards ISI, or worse yet falling to the level of the mob). I am glad that at least on chowk this incident has caused Pakistani and Indian posters to take a united stand. There is hope yet for the future.

Romair #19 I have a question for you. Why do we need the ISI? Could Pakistan face a hostile India without ISI? I think it could. Could Pakistan live with a friendly India and without ISI? I think it could, and even more so.

Ref satyavadi #: 18

[The ISI theory that your propound for the Godhra massacre among other things is quite possible.

It makes sense for the ISI to instigate the burning train of Godhra which was sure to incite revenge killings of Muslims, like we are seeing.

I think the ISI angle should be further examined.]

Well, if you Indians hadn`t been crying ``Foreign Hand`` for so long, there is a chance someone would take this suggestion seriously. But ever since Indira Gandhi started seeing the CIA behind every Bush and municipal councillors on the take were blaming the collapse of flyovers on Pakistani saboteurs as opposed to the use of too much sand in the concrete mix by greedy contractors, I have found it hard to believe all this BS about foreign involvement. It is just inborn Islamic thuggery native to the area.

Also, I tend to think rather low of the competence of even the degreed folks from India -- my Turkish friend`s comment about inability to straighten a pr!ck with both hands comes to mind though the current populations of both India and Pakistan would belie a literal interpretation of this and we must keep reminding ourselves over and over again that this is only metaphorical -- I don`t believe our neighbors on the purer side of the border have been handed a greater deal of competence by Allah particularly since they have been given imposing height, fairer skin, overall desirability in the eyes of the females of the species, ability to beat 10 spindly-legged Hindus in warfare single-handedly, etc., and even Allah in his graciousness and his willingness to test the mettle of the Followers of the True Faith must handicap them in some way to ensure that they prove themselves worthy of the 72 virginal houris who, we are told, have really been part of a cosmic bait-and-switch scheme, having been replaced by 72 white raisins instead, which incidentally are available for 29 cents in a 1-oz pack in supermarkets, and the shaheeds have no way to appeal this switching of prizes after they have complied with all the rules of the game since the man handing out the raisins in place of the virgins is the same guy who is hearing the arguments on Judgement Day and maybe he is trying to tell you all that sex is vastly overrated and why don`t you just eat some raisins whenever you get the urge while simultaneously sending out misogynistic messages about 72 women being worth only 29 cents retail and when you take in volume discounts for purchasing half a gross the price is likely to be even lower....

Anyway, what I was trying to say was that the plot is way too diabolical and convoluted to be pulled off by Desis and could have been easily stopped in its tracks by a handful of white raisins which I am sure the traitor Nawaz Sharif was selling to India from the orchards of Balochistan and that is exactly why the faujis had to step in and take over the government thus preventing their plot from being aborted so easily and this also explains why Pakistan had to control the vineyards of Afghanistan so that the jihadis could be properly motivated by the thought of their reward in jannat while the faujis get themselves high on raisin wine....

isi blues ........

...... first it was the whiney indians, then it was my whiney daughter who is convinced the isi is behind homework, and now temporal has jumped on this silly gadha-garhi .....

...... for ishwar`s sake, the isi is just another government agency like the pwd and wapda and the railways ..... actually it is the only agency that did what it was supposed to do, and did it fairly well .... it helped the americans and the incorrigible afghans defeat the evil empire and save the world from the horrors of communism ..... it went on to become a pain in india`s posterior and for a while conducted a fairly successful insurgency in kashmir ( which is what most pakis wanted ) ...... it probably got a little carried and, in hindsight, its alliance with the wild-eyed jihadis wasn`t a very good idea ........ but, unlike wapda and pwd, it did what it was supposed to do ......

........ and, for once, romair is right - the isi has always been under the army`s control and all this hoopla about it being a rouge organization is an attempt to cover everyone`s political derriere .....its staff consists of serving military officers - majors and squardon leaders, who would rather be back with their regiment or squardon instead of sitting in islamabad shuffling files and stalking the indian embassy cook......these guys follow orders, they don`t make policy .....

......now that mushy, with help from his friends in washington, has found religion, the isi folks, like their counterparts in wapda and pwd are sitting around in G-8, swatting flies and reading about their exploits in nawa-i-waqt ........`` did we do all that ?`` ...``sir, we must have been good - pass the samosas please``......

..... in a few months the isi will be disbanded or put to work tracking down all those missing dumpsters in islamabad ..... the insufferable indian army in kashmir will get some respite but, with summer coming up, there won`t be any respite for the poor people of pakistan as they continue to suffer from load-shedding .....maybe they should get the isi to run wapda .....

Laaton key bhoot baaton sey nahin maantey.

Ref Amit #: 17

[Malik Sahib,

The blame for this latest bout of communal madness in India lies with the BJP.]

Following the precedent of the Winter Olympics in pairs skating, the gold medal in the sport of Pin the Blame on Hindus is awarded to the following:

Amit, Akash, Pankaj, Sadna, Prem, Hariharan and Romair.

Urstruly has truly distinguished himself in this category and a one-time Platinum medal, ranking higher than the Gold, is hereby awarded to him.

The judges are still debating the Silver and Bronze medals. It is rumored that Mullah321 will take the Silver.

Dar Pakistanis here is a thought which is eching all over -

the quote

Gujarat was ``burning``, ``innocents`` were dying, there was ``arson and loot`` on the streets-all this on February 28; all references to the manner in which the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) fashioned its response to the carnage on Sabarmati Express. The singling out of Muslims is indeed unforgivable. But was the 2000-strong Muslim mob, which should forthwith surrender its membership to a club called human civilisation, ``innocent`` in its decision to attack a bogey-full of Ramsewaks because the latter committed the crime of singing bhajans on their way back home from Ayodhya?

Secular defendants of the Muslim cause in India promptly pronounced the Ramsewaks guilty of ``provoking`` a bunch of miscreants into medieval barbarity? Apparently the sewaks had committed a crime serious enough to invite a retribution that reminded some of us of the terrible days of Partition, of bogeys being locked from the outside as countless Hindus, particularly women and children, went up in flames. Then, February 28 brought news of attacks on Muslims, Muslim shops, Muslim restaurants, Muslim places of worship, etc, etc; not one report on Godhra the previous day even hinted at the fact that the 58 Ramsewaks, sent to their deaths in cold blood, were victims of Muslim violence; that it was a targeted attack on the Hindu community. Those who perpetrated the Godhra massacre were merely identified as a bunch of ``miscreants`` of a ``particular community`` who set a train afire, never mind if their impotent rage killed 25 women and 14 children out of a total of 58.

Omair to say the ISI is not responsible for a helluva lot in Pakistan is also a understatement, did you see the hum Khyalys when they stormed the PML House?.Who were all those people with them? Who organised that event? Who created the IJI?

While to say it was all part of one grand plan would be a fallacy, but they hae played a major role in destabilising mainstream politics, as well as providing large amount to religious groups, who subsequently became destabilised, and splintered into more idealogical groups.

Anas Malik

{{ I have titled this piece ``why are we killing ourselves`` to emphasize that ``we``- the common inhabitants and relatives of the Indian subcontinent and beyond }}

a timely question...the answer is deceptively simple...``we`` are actually only the poor of south asia...``we`` are killing ourselves because our lives are defined by poverty, disease, inequity, and hopelessness...``we`` have nothing to lose if in the process of killing 50, we ourselves perish....``we`` have never been given the opportunity to educate ourselves and learn to think for ourselves...as a reslt, ``we`` continue to be brainwashed and manipulated in the name of religion....``we`` are the unfortunate inhabitants of cesspool called south asia....

...but ``we`` are the people who will one day save south asia through a bloody and destructive revolution...aren`t all great nations borne of destruction?....

Hobbyty,

I know some people have begun to suspect the involvement of ISI. They may or may not have their justifications, but I have no reason or information on which to join them. And seeing how mad, crazed animal-like has been the behavior of some so-called Hindus (Well...no escaping the tough fact - those ARE bloody Hindus), there is NO denying the growth of this muscular element of Hinduism, much to our shame.

See, hobbyty, unfortunately, this is what I have tried to point out a few times earlier, sometimes lightly, sometimes more seriously: Indians (Hindus if you will) are just as bloody irrational, crazy people as anybody else. That is what led me to conclude, once, that the doctrine of mutual-nuclear restraint has broken down in the sub-continent. Both Indians and Pakistanis (me included, perhaps) have become utterly irrational and foolish people.

Now, in Gadhora (damn...I can`t spell that name now...but they are all gadhas anyways) there is a genuine fear that the attack was pre-meditated. That will need to be investigated. Whatever be the case, I mentioned to Babu that the inhuman behavior of these mad, apparently ``vengeful`` Hindus will ONLY strengthen the hands of the hardliners among Muslims. That too is an unfortunate fact. The blame is not shifted anywhwere other than where it squarely belongs: on the cursed shoulders of the murderers belonging to both communities and all those who aided and abetted them.

The horror is too great and our loss will be too large unless we get to the bottom of this episode. Excuses will not do.

Frankly, I feel sick reading these absolutely gory, devilish accounts of murder. There is no question I personally will swallow any excuses for their behavior on both sides. There is NONE.

What else can I say...I am terribly ashamed and saddened, hobbyty.

People chiding me for suggesting that the ISI might be behind the Godhra attack need to read this by Prem Shankar Jha in Outlook.

For those who are not aware, Outlook is a left leaning fiercely anti Hindutwa Indian magazine.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020311&fname=Column+Prem+%28F%29&sid=1

Excerpts:::

[[[The wave of anger that has swept through the country is understandable but must be curbed. Such calculatedly aggressive behaviour is so utterly uncharacteristic of the Muslims of Gujarat and of India in general, and is in such marked contrast to the pattern of Hindu-Muslim conflict during the past three decades, that its causes need the closest possible scrutiny. It is barely possible that the dispute arose out of a fracas between kar sevaks and Muslim vendors in Vadodara, or on the train. The VHP and Bajrang Dal are not exactly known for their sensitivity to the sentiments of the minority community and may have cast aspersions on Islam that brought forth this unwonted, although still utterly condemnable reaction. ]]]]

[[[Thus one cannot rule out the possibility that the attack was planned, was intended to occur after the Ayodhya meeting of VHP kar sevaks, and was instigated by outside elements. This cannot be ruled out because India has been a victim of calculated attempts by trans-border elements to tear the social fabric apart with premeditated acts of communal violence in Punjab and Kashmir for the last two decades. It would be no surprise if the net had been widened to cover Gujarat as well, for the endemic communal violence that has racked the state ever since 1969 has prepared the ground for extremism—both Muslim and Hindu—exceptionally well. If this is what indeed happened, then both Hindus and Muslims are being used as pawns in other peoples` devilish chess games. Thus Hindu chauvinist elements would do well to reign in their anger till they know more about how the violence began.

veeresh #5:

[ . . . ok, let us take your very plausible ISI theory for a moment as true . . . question arises: who is paying for the extra marmalade on the ISI breakfast table, then? …]

---‘true’?…who knows…all I am suggesting is we should examine it from another perch…as for your query re: who is paying for it…there is a deliberate opaqueness in such agencies and departments…even for the over all budget the figures are fudged…and secondary and tertiary funding is allocated from other departments and ministries…


sarwari #11:

[…may I ask what was the point of the post and why you want shaheen sehbai fired?…]

---since you asked…I did not suggest mr sehbai, kamran khan, mateen and klasra should be fired…and again…the point was to examine the role of isi from another perspective (from an informed, concerned and curious civilian’s p-o-v) and to see if its activites are productive to national interests or counter-productive…


Romair #19:

…can I plead the fifth:)?…

…or perhaps you can give me the benefit of doubt and forgive my intrusion as that of a naïve student who has spent some time reading up and discussing isi activites over the years…I am inviting debate…but please do no feel compelled to enter for fear of adding more fire…it is understandable…

[…Could you explain how the ISI can be more powerful than the Army…] and again […How can an organization whose members report to another organization, be more powerful than the later organization? …]

…will you allow me to be intentionaly vague?…can I cite lord acton’s dictum?…power corrupts and absolute power…isi by its very nature does not operate in the open…it prefers to operate in the shade…of course this provides an open field to its detractors…and we have all seen it in india…except for the natural calamities like the bhoj earthquake or the orissa hurricane…every other event is blamed directly on the isi...just as on our side raw is blamed!…

…it is easy to overlook or disobey directives…create unfavourable conditions that require predictible government reaction…mould public re-action in a certain way…become conduit for money and drugs…if you are a serious student all this information is available ‘over the counter’…

regards,

temporal

Re: Temporal & Romair

Gentlemen, the ISI link is based on a supposition and that is, it might be involved. Based on this supposition, you can draw an inference and thereby, imply a conclusion as to what really started this whole thing.

That conclusion will not necessarily mean that you are wrong and it will not mean that you are right.

Ciao

Indians, read this article and weep....How fukced up we have become.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A29774-2002Mar2.html