Why Are We Killing Ourselves?
Anas Malik March 2, 2002
#158 Posted by hobbyty on March 11, 2002 5:12:50 pm
Dost Mittar
You say you ``believe`` there was a ``final solution``, I want to point out to you that if such was fact, ``believe`` would be meaningless. What you are asserting fits in the catefgory of ``historicism``. But I doubt this position will be convincing to you, but that`s not whats important. The articles Thakoor and Freidman are instructive, relevant to peoples of Pakistan and India: There is littel point in exorcizing ghosts of history. That we as peoples are ``dignity`` deficient, that`s what the exorcizing is about.
You say you ``believe`` there was a ``final solution``, I want to point out to you that if such was fact, ``believe`` would be meaningless. What you are asserting fits in the catefgory of ``historicism``. But I doubt this position will be convincing to you, but that`s not whats important. The articles Thakoor and Freidman are instructive, relevant to peoples of Pakistan and India: There is littel point in exorcizing ghosts of history. That we as peoples are ``dignity`` deficient, that`s what the exorcizing is about.
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#156 Posted by cutandpaste on March 11, 2002 10:28:47 am
As Punjab greets spring with kites, bullets fly, too
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/069/nation/As_Punjab_greets_spring_with_kites_bullets_fly_too+.shtml
By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff, 3/10/2002
RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - Even with war raging across the border, the ritual greeting of spring goes on in northeastern Pakistan. With dancing kites, the blare of bugles, and yellow costumes, the inhabitants of Punjab province join in a celebration called Basant.
These days, however, blazing bullets have become part of the festivities. The intent isn`t murderous, but bullets fired in jubilation are claiming more and more victims. And Punjabis are wondering what happened to their peaceful paean to new blossoms and fertile fields.
For centuries, spring has been the season to send tens of thousands of gaily-colored kites aloft from rooftops across the province. But over the past decade, the once-gentle salute to winter`s end has turned crassly commercial, increasingly rowdy, religiously controversial, and occasionally violent.
``Even in our festivals there is mayhem,`` said Dr. Mohammar Saeed, weary from a night of treating gunshot wounds, blown-off fingers, concussions, and other injuries at General Hospital.
The cause of the carnage?
``Spring fever,`` Saeed said. ``Plus our usual Pakistan custom of making pandemonium where there should be peace.``
Still, Basant remains a glorious gathering, as handmade ``gudha`` kites frisk in the breeze, women promenade through parks in festive yellow dress, and revelers honk brass bugles.
``Flying a kite is like writing poems in the sky,`` said Nania Mazir, teacher at an Islamabad girls` college as she deftly manipulated her own soaring paper pennant.
In Punjab, spring comes in the blink of an eye.
One day, dank winter mists coil through the bazaars like unwholesome ghosts; the next, the sun beats warm, every field is a rippling carpet of golden mustard flowers, and the first buds are greening the Margalla Hills.
Time for Punjabis to go fly a kite, but also, of late, time to snap the safety off Kalashnikov assault rifles and semiautomatic sidearms to spray the heavens with hot lead.
Time, too, to crank up the cassette player to serenade neighbors for blocks around with caterwauling Punjabi torch songs. And time for untraditional merrymakers to ignite homemade rockets, clobber one another on the head with bamboo staves, or simply run through the streets sounding compressed-air sirens of the sort employed, in calmer countries, as fog horns or for firetrucks.
The Basant festival dates to Hindu times, before Islamic invaders starting from around 1000 AD offered Punjabis a stark choice: Adopt a new faith and new ways, or die. But people of the region kept their love for flying kites.
Simple fun is still the dominant theme of Basant. Picnickers lounge on every patch of urban grass while kites beyond counting bob and weave above the narrow streets of Rawalpindi, Lahore, Faisalabad, and other centers of Punjab. Even stuffy Islamabad succumbs to the spirit.
Most of the fluttering sails are painted yellow in honor of the mustard flower - symbol of spring - or white for the purity of the season. Parties on rooftops and in parks last all day and into the night, with spotlights illuminating the kites until the dawn.
Basant is a one-day festival, but since it is celebrated in different cities on different days it stretches out for several weeks beginning in late February.
What no one seems entirely able to explain is why over the past 10 years, the fun has often taken an ugly twist.
In Rawalpindi last weekend, spring festivities left three dead and 70 injured enough to warrant hospitalization, with four in critical condition. In Lahore, capital of Punjab, the toll was worse: ``Six killed, 250 injured on Basant,`` read the headline. Among the Lahore victims was a 10-year-old boy killed by ``aeriel firing.`` That`s the police euphemism for bursts of gunfire into the air.
``Some people like to shoot so many bullets to show what fun they are having,`` said police spokesman Ali Iqbal. ``They forget what goes up must certainly be coming down. Much unfortunateness is the result.``
Not every victim was the casualty of wayward rounds.
Some people fell from rooftops, others were maimed by homemade explosives, and others bloodied in battles over who could claim which downed kite.
``Pakistanis seem to get carried away in their happiness,`` said Sher Ibrahim Mohammed, owner of an agricultural supply company and host of a traditional Basant party on the roof of his family compound near Saddaq Bazaar. ``As in the West, our holidays have fallen to hype. People are overstimulated.``
And often armed. As the newspaper Dawn noted in its coverage of Basant festivities: ``The government`s ban on arms and explosives was violated with impunity as police watched as silent spectators. ... They did not want to spoil celebrations.``
The government, always on the lookout for ties to bind this fractious nation, strongly encourages celebration of Basant, promoting the holiday on state-run television and putting up decorations in public places; Basant supposedly being the one festive occasion that doesn`t inflame religious passions.
Except lately it does.
``Basant is celebrated in northern India, by Hindus!`` fumed Ikram Azam, head of a Muslim charity, in an opinion piece written for the Daily Pakistan Observer. ``How is it we are calling the celebration of such blasphemy a part of our culture?``
Most Punjabis don`t give a hoot about the origins of Basant. They see it as a good excuse to kick back, quaff a few non-alcoholic brews, and enjoy the high-flying spectacle.
``A kite is a symbol not just of spring,`` said Mazir, the teacher. ``See how it dips? See how it soars? Every person should love the kite`s grace.``
This story ran on page A6 of the Boston Globe on 3/10/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/069/nation/As_Punjab_greets_spring_with_kites_bullets_fly_too+.shtml
By Colin Nickerson, Globe Staff, 3/10/2002
RAWALPINDI, Pakistan - Even with war raging across the border, the ritual greeting of spring goes on in northeastern Pakistan. With dancing kites, the blare of bugles, and yellow costumes, the inhabitants of Punjab province join in a celebration called Basant.
These days, however, blazing bullets have become part of the festivities. The intent isn`t murderous, but bullets fired in jubilation are claiming more and more victims. And Punjabis are wondering what happened to their peaceful paean to new blossoms and fertile fields.
For centuries, spring has been the season to send tens of thousands of gaily-colored kites aloft from rooftops across the province. But over the past decade, the once-gentle salute to winter`s end has turned crassly commercial, increasingly rowdy, religiously controversial, and occasionally violent.
``Even in our festivals there is mayhem,`` said Dr. Mohammar Saeed, weary from a night of treating gunshot wounds, blown-off fingers, concussions, and other injuries at General Hospital.
The cause of the carnage?
``Spring fever,`` Saeed said. ``Plus our usual Pakistan custom of making pandemonium where there should be peace.``
Still, Basant remains a glorious gathering, as handmade ``gudha`` kites frisk in the breeze, women promenade through parks in festive yellow dress, and revelers honk brass bugles.
``Flying a kite is like writing poems in the sky,`` said Nania Mazir, teacher at an Islamabad girls` college as she deftly manipulated her own soaring paper pennant.
In Punjab, spring comes in the blink of an eye.
One day, dank winter mists coil through the bazaars like unwholesome ghosts; the next, the sun beats warm, every field is a rippling carpet of golden mustard flowers, and the first buds are greening the Margalla Hills.
Time for Punjabis to go fly a kite, but also, of late, time to snap the safety off Kalashnikov assault rifles and semiautomatic sidearms to spray the heavens with hot lead.
Time, too, to crank up the cassette player to serenade neighbors for blocks around with caterwauling Punjabi torch songs. And time for untraditional merrymakers to ignite homemade rockets, clobber one another on the head with bamboo staves, or simply run through the streets sounding compressed-air sirens of the sort employed, in calmer countries, as fog horns or for firetrucks.
The Basant festival dates to Hindu times, before Islamic invaders starting from around 1000 AD offered Punjabis a stark choice: Adopt a new faith and new ways, or die. But people of the region kept their love for flying kites.
Simple fun is still the dominant theme of Basant. Picnickers lounge on every patch of urban grass while kites beyond counting bob and weave above the narrow streets of Rawalpindi, Lahore, Faisalabad, and other centers of Punjab. Even stuffy Islamabad succumbs to the spirit.
Most of the fluttering sails are painted yellow in honor of the mustard flower - symbol of spring - or white for the purity of the season. Parties on rooftops and in parks last all day and into the night, with spotlights illuminating the kites until the dawn.
Basant is a one-day festival, but since it is celebrated in different cities on different days it stretches out for several weeks beginning in late February.
What no one seems entirely able to explain is why over the past 10 years, the fun has often taken an ugly twist.
In Rawalpindi last weekend, spring festivities left three dead and 70 injured enough to warrant hospitalization, with four in critical condition. In Lahore, capital of Punjab, the toll was worse: ``Six killed, 250 injured on Basant,`` read the headline. Among the Lahore victims was a 10-year-old boy killed by ``aeriel firing.`` That`s the police euphemism for bursts of gunfire into the air.
``Some people like to shoot so many bullets to show what fun they are having,`` said police spokesman Ali Iqbal. ``They forget what goes up must certainly be coming down. Much unfortunateness is the result.``
Not every victim was the casualty of wayward rounds.
Some people fell from rooftops, others were maimed by homemade explosives, and others bloodied in battles over who could claim which downed kite.
``Pakistanis seem to get carried away in their happiness,`` said Sher Ibrahim Mohammed, owner of an agricultural supply company and host of a traditional Basant party on the roof of his family compound near Saddaq Bazaar. ``As in the West, our holidays have fallen to hype. People are overstimulated.``
And often armed. As the newspaper Dawn noted in its coverage of Basant festivities: ``The government`s ban on arms and explosives was violated with impunity as police watched as silent spectators. ... They did not want to spoil celebrations.``
The government, always on the lookout for ties to bind this fractious nation, strongly encourages celebration of Basant, promoting the holiday on state-run television and putting up decorations in public places; Basant supposedly being the one festive occasion that doesn`t inflame religious passions.
Except lately it does.
``Basant is celebrated in northern India, by Hindus!`` fumed Ikram Azam, head of a Muslim charity, in an opinion piece written for the Daily Pakistan Observer. ``How is it we are calling the celebration of such blasphemy a part of our culture?``
Most Punjabis don`t give a hoot about the origins of Basant. They see it as a good excuse to kick back, quaff a few non-alcoholic brews, and enjoy the high-flying spectacle.
``A kite is a symbol not just of spring,`` said Mazir, the teacher. ``See how it dips? See how it soars? Every person should love the kite`s grace.``
This story ran on page A6 of the Boston Globe on 3/10/2002.
© Copyright 2002 Globe Newspaper Company.
#155 Posted by Prem on March 10, 2002 9:34:33 pm
re: studebaker # 158
Most excellent points.
Again, pronouncing judgements on another country without conducting some objective research is sheer madness, but since you gave me the hukum, here goes...
On the relative economic prosperity of at least urban educated population in Pakistan...
studebaker, here my views may be entirely ``biased.`` I would LOVE you and any of my Pakistani friends to correct me on this. These are critical issues because they speak to structural factors far more decisive in their impact than Gandhi-Jinnah secular/non-secular crap that fills Chowk.
I suspect that the economic prosperity of urban educated population of Pakistan may be less deep than a well-wisher of Pakistan would like. A great deal of Pakistani wealth appears to be tied directly to three societal factors -
1. the old/feudal landlord system. These old-time landlords and their often burger (?) offsprings appear to have cornered a large chunk of the lucrative political and industrial base of that country.
2. the new feudal/landlord/burger system built around the military and its offshoot, the ISI.
That so many of Pakistani ``generals`` and their underlings have been billionaires and multimillionaires is no surprise. An ENORMOUS amount of wealth both in the form of foreign (mostly American) aid as well as transfer of resources from other poorer sectors of the population has gone into defense. Little of that wealth is honestly accounted for, and a great deal shows up in the form of endless wealth for the enjoyment of those directly or indirectly related to the military. In addition, almost every general and his daugher-in-law in Pakistan seems to be a governor of some state. Money adds up.
3. Lastly, there are my UP bhais and gujju bhais who went to Pakistan. And being my blood brothers, they were obviously smarter than the local population (ha ha...couldn`t help that), and relatively more educated. Besides, although they were refugees, they enjoyed an enormous and distinct advantage over everybody else - their language, the language of a minority, had been assigned a status over and above local languages, those of majority populations - punjabis, sindhis, baloochis etc. So my ``Indian`` brothers naturally found it easier to corner the official and urban space in Pakistan. It is likely that many of these ``UP wallas`` were also among the first to jump on the middle east bandwagon as that region struck black gold beneath its ground. So, as you suggested, advantage was combined with pure luck.
The situation in India was a bit different for both Muslims and Hindus. A great majority of Muslims who stayed back in India were either as dirt-poor as or only marginally better off than my own grandparents - people who survived on a day-to-day basis, eking out an uncertain hand-to-mouth existence. For most of us, the situation was perhaps comparable to the one faced by people, say, in Balochistan or interior Sindh.
In such circumstances, except for the Birlas and Tatas, and the zamindars (who, thank the Lord, were soon kicked in their rears - though they managed to pass on a lot of pelf looted from the nation to their progeny) education was the only way out of utter penury. Education and the rat-race to search for jobs in a depleted environment meant ruthless competition. Even in that situation, Muslims carried the additional crosses of increased inter-communal distrust inflamed after the partition, and the added sense of having to ``protect`` their cultural identity in a less than sympathetic environment. More Muslims were thus likely to drop out of the education treadmil, preferring to detour into smaller handicraft trades. That some Muslims STILL managed to make it to the IITs and IIMs (and to a larger extent, regional institutes) constitutes an impressive testamony primarily to their ability and tenacity, and secondarily to the integrity of much maligned Indian system.
studebaker, nobody symbolizes this remarkable, if woefully rare, phenonmenon than a close friend of mine in school. I can write about him but that will be too personal. Let us just say, we have all, the poorer Hindus and Muslims, struggled very hard, spending many hungry and cold nights. So whatever little we have gained has brought a measure of satisfaction. We may not be as rich, or as glitzy, but I personally have nothing but intense contempt for that kind of wealth and glitter - whether Pakistani or Indian. I have lived with the richest of the rich in India, and I have seen how naked these ``emperors`` are.
Most excellent points.
Again, pronouncing judgements on another country without conducting some objective research is sheer madness, but since you gave me the hukum, here goes...
On the relative economic prosperity of at least urban educated population in Pakistan...
studebaker, here my views may be entirely ``biased.`` I would LOVE you and any of my Pakistani friends to correct me on this. These are critical issues because they speak to structural factors far more decisive in their impact than Gandhi-Jinnah secular/non-secular crap that fills Chowk.
I suspect that the economic prosperity of urban educated population of Pakistan may be less deep than a well-wisher of Pakistan would like. A great deal of Pakistani wealth appears to be tied directly to three societal factors -
1. the old/feudal landlord system. These old-time landlords and their often burger (?) offsprings appear to have cornered a large chunk of the lucrative political and industrial base of that country.
2. the new feudal/landlord/burger system built around the military and its offshoot, the ISI.
That so many of Pakistani ``generals`` and their underlings have been billionaires and multimillionaires is no surprise. An ENORMOUS amount of wealth both in the form of foreign (mostly American) aid as well as transfer of resources from other poorer sectors of the population has gone into defense. Little of that wealth is honestly accounted for, and a great deal shows up in the form of endless wealth for the enjoyment of those directly or indirectly related to the military. In addition, almost every general and his daugher-in-law in Pakistan seems to be a governor of some state. Money adds up.
3. Lastly, there are my UP bhais and gujju bhais who went to Pakistan. And being my blood brothers, they were obviously smarter than the local population (ha ha...couldn`t help that), and relatively more educated. Besides, although they were refugees, they enjoyed an enormous and distinct advantage over everybody else - their language, the language of a minority, had been assigned a status over and above local languages, those of majority populations - punjabis, sindhis, baloochis etc. So my ``Indian`` brothers naturally found it easier to corner the official and urban space in Pakistan. It is likely that many of these ``UP wallas`` were also among the first to jump on the middle east bandwagon as that region struck black gold beneath its ground. So, as you suggested, advantage was combined with pure luck.
The situation in India was a bit different for both Muslims and Hindus. A great majority of Muslims who stayed back in India were either as dirt-poor as or only marginally better off than my own grandparents - people who survived on a day-to-day basis, eking out an uncertain hand-to-mouth existence. For most of us, the situation was perhaps comparable to the one faced by people, say, in Balochistan or interior Sindh.
In such circumstances, except for the Birlas and Tatas, and the zamindars (who, thank the Lord, were soon kicked in their rears - though they managed to pass on a lot of pelf looted from the nation to their progeny) education was the only way out of utter penury. Education and the rat-race to search for jobs in a depleted environment meant ruthless competition. Even in that situation, Muslims carried the additional crosses of increased inter-communal distrust inflamed after the partition, and the added sense of having to ``protect`` their cultural identity in a less than sympathetic environment. More Muslims were thus likely to drop out of the education treadmil, preferring to detour into smaller handicraft trades. That some Muslims STILL managed to make it to the IITs and IIMs (and to a larger extent, regional institutes) constitutes an impressive testamony primarily to their ability and tenacity, and secondarily to the integrity of much maligned Indian system.
studebaker, nobody symbolizes this remarkable, if woefully rare, phenonmenon than a close friend of mine in school. I can write about him but that will be too personal. Let us just say, we have all, the poorer Hindus and Muslims, struggled very hard, spending many hungry and cold nights. So whatever little we have gained has brought a measure of satisfaction. We may not be as rich, or as glitzy, but I personally have nothing but intense contempt for that kind of wealth and glitter - whether Pakistani or Indian. I have lived with the richest of the rich in India, and I have seen how naked these ``emperors`` are.
#154 Posted by Studebaker on March 10, 2002 2:32:48 pm
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#153 Posted by veeresh on March 10, 2002 12:07:16 pm
Dear Truth . . . topics change, yes. And it was supposed to be gardner . . . like in perry mason . . . too lazy to hit caps.
I stand by whatever I may have said though I may wish to change my mind at any time and deny that too.
veeresh
#150 Posted by Truth on March 10, 2002 11:19:33 am
Veeresh ``Real Name`` Malik:
I never said I had a problem. Nothing that you can help me with anyway. Wasn`t looking for a gardener.
Nice try on changinging the topic.
Regards.
``Pseudonym`` Truth
I never said I had a problem. Nothing that you can help me with anyway. Wasn`t looking for a gardener.
Nice try on changinging the topic.
Regards.
``Pseudonym`` Truth
#149 Posted by Prem on March 10, 2002 11:19:33 am
re: Studebaker # 152
If I may throw in my two cents -
It is almost impossible to say what ``would have been.`` One can make some honest conjectures though -
I think the overall ``RATE`` of development in Muslim dominated areas would still have been somewhat below other parts of the country. We would have had some Muslim industrial/trading houses (a la Muslim Birlas) doing extremely well thanks to the license raj Congress encouraged for forty years, while the rest of the populace would have struggled.
The actual ``LEVEL`` of overall development in those areas would probably have been significantly higher than is the case today. If nothing else, savings in the area of defense itself would have lifted the boat up a bit for everybody. There would have been a larger common market, no uprooting of businesses and people, and the psyches of different communities would not have been so horribly scarred by raked up hatred.
After about thirty-forty years of uneven development, we would have seen an emergence of a stronger middle class, along the pattern as has been happening in India.
But this is all speculation. None of this should be misconstrued as a desire to destroy or wipe out Pakistan. All three countries - Pakistan, India, Bangladesh - exist today as they do, and should have our support.
If I may throw in my two cents -
It is almost impossible to say what ``would have been.`` One can make some honest conjectures though -
I think the overall ``RATE`` of development in Muslim dominated areas would still have been somewhat below other parts of the country. We would have had some Muslim industrial/trading houses (a la Muslim Birlas) doing extremely well thanks to the license raj Congress encouraged for forty years, while the rest of the populace would have struggled.
The actual ``LEVEL`` of overall development in those areas would probably have been significantly higher than is the case today. If nothing else, savings in the area of defense itself would have lifted the boat up a bit for everybody. There would have been a larger common market, no uprooting of businesses and people, and the psyches of different communities would not have been so horribly scarred by raked up hatred.
After about thirty-forty years of uneven development, we would have seen an emergence of a stronger middle class, along the pattern as has been happening in India.
But this is all speculation. None of this should be misconstrued as a desire to destroy or wipe out Pakistan. All three countries - Pakistan, India, Bangladesh - exist today as they do, and should have our support.
#148 Posted by veeresh on March 10, 2002 2:34:11 am
Dear Truth . . . thank you for the compliments . . . I think you are a great guy too . . . (maybe both of us are wrong?) . . . atleast I put my real name on my posts and don`t hide behind half-truths?
Sorry, I can`t help you with your problems. Please find another gardner.
regards/veeresh
#147 Posted by Truth on March 9, 2002 7:01:32 pm
Hobbyty:
How is it that you, as a Pakistani, do not know the demographics of Pakistan pre-1947? Odd gap in the education system.
Hindus were a significant minority in pre-1947 Pakistan. So much so that some people claimed that Lahore proper was a Hindu-Sikh majority city.
Here is an extract from the foreword of ``Lahore 1947``, edited by Ahmad Salim. The foreword is written by Ian Talbot of Coventry University.
``[Lahore] was inhabited by around 240,000 Hindus & Sikhs who at the time of the 1941 census accounted for a third of its total population [Muslim pop of Lahore was 433,000]....
Virtually all the shops in the famous Anarkali Bazaar which stretched a mile outside the walled city from Lahori Gate to Nila Gumbad were in their hands... the area around Shah Almi Gate and Chuna Mandi were also non-Muslim.
In all, Hindus and Sikhs owned two thirds of the city`s shops and paid seven tenths of its urban taxes.... Lahore was not an Islamic city, but rather possessed a cosmopolitan feel.
....The award of Lahore to Pakistan was only made public the day after independence. By that stage, extensive areas of the city which had been inhabited by Hindus & Sikhs were in ruins following weeks of what has been termed the ``communal war of succession``. The cosmopolitan, ``Paris of the East`` was a distant and poignant memory.``
If Romair reads this, he will understand what I meant by ``Ab tumhare hawale watan saathiyon`` which he had labelled an ``interesting choice of words.
By the way, there is a rule of thumb among Hindus, if your name ends in ``-ani`` like Moorjani, Panjwani etc., you are from Sindh.
How is it that you, as a Pakistani, do not know the demographics of Pakistan pre-1947? Odd gap in the education system.
Hindus were a significant minority in pre-1947 Pakistan. So much so that some people claimed that Lahore proper was a Hindu-Sikh majority city.
Here is an extract from the foreword of ``Lahore 1947``, edited by Ahmad Salim. The foreword is written by Ian Talbot of Coventry University.
``[Lahore] was inhabited by around 240,000 Hindus & Sikhs who at the time of the 1941 census accounted for a third of its total population [Muslim pop of Lahore was 433,000]....
Virtually all the shops in the famous Anarkali Bazaar which stretched a mile outside the walled city from Lahori Gate to Nila Gumbad were in their hands... the area around Shah Almi Gate and Chuna Mandi were also non-Muslim.
In all, Hindus and Sikhs owned two thirds of the city`s shops and paid seven tenths of its urban taxes.... Lahore was not an Islamic city, but rather possessed a cosmopolitan feel.
....The award of Lahore to Pakistan was only made public the day after independence. By that stage, extensive areas of the city which had been inhabited by Hindus & Sikhs were in ruins following weeks of what has been termed the ``communal war of succession``. The cosmopolitan, ``Paris of the East`` was a distant and poignant memory.``
If Romair reads this, he will understand what I meant by ``Ab tumhare hawale watan saathiyon`` which he had labelled an ``interesting choice of words.
By the way, there is a rule of thumb among Hindus, if your name ends in ``-ani`` like Moorjani, Panjwani etc., you are from Sindh.
#146 Posted by hobbyty on March 9, 2002 5:59:52 pm
Dost Mittar
Are you arguing that Hindus were a majority or a very significant minority in what is now Pakistan? Unfortunately I do not know where I may find the cencus numbers you are referring to - do you know if these are available on the web? The figures you cite, were they used to distinguish Muslim majority areas?
Re Your approval of and association with VHP version of Indian history:
``I certainly do not. VHP/BJP believe in distorting Indian history to conform to their view of ``Muslim bad-Hindu good`` creed. I detest any attempt by anyone to distort history to serve political ends, whether the distortion is done by Marxists or by Sanghis.`` AND YET, you say things like Pakistan employed ``Final solution`` with regard to Hindus??? By your statements you prove yourself to have an affinity to expressing VHP worldview with regard to Indian History and in particular, it`s attitudes towards Islam and Muslims. Philosophy of history - study it! understand it! - I`m not arguing against anyone`s right to hold whatever view, but one does at the least, remain conscious that ``historical facts`` are historical and facts only when called upon. This means educated persons remain conscious of the ``indeterminate`` nature of ``history`` and ``facts``, that it is incumbent upon them to be ``open`` to any number of ``truth seeking`` endeavors.
``I do however believe in Naipaul`s views regarding the change in the worldview of the convert to Islam. So, apparently do you, except that you simply call it an exercise of choices.``
``Simply`` a matter of choices? No, indeed a matter of conscience! Do you see, how you have negated the denials you asserted above? To say that a religious conversion or even a acceptance or attachment to a intellectual philosophy, changes ones world view is the equivalent of asserting that during the day, the sun light is illuminating; these are tautologous statements.
You want the Muslim to be a Muslim but espouse a Hindu worldview? If it were ``true`` that you do not express the VHP view of Indian history and attitudes towards Islam and Muslims, why would you express support of Naipaul`s hateful and alienated, point of view?
``while you would gladly give ME the choice of rejecting my religion, you would not give the same choice to someone who inherited yours.`` Go AHEAD, Prove me LIAR to all Chowk, prove to them that you have knowledge of what I would do.
``My agreement with Rushdie`s views re. the evil influence of religion is a choice of a different kind, based on facts, evidence and analysis to the best of my faculties, which can be debated and can also be changed if contrary facts and analyses are persuasive enough.``
In other words you have experienced, have evidence, that you have interpreted to mean that God is an evil in the world? that what by conception and definition is ``Good`` (see the relationship of the word to the word, God) is actually evil? - and you are a rational and educated person? - In your experience you have seem more evil than good from God? or do you mean you have seen evil done in the name of God? if the latter, how is God the problem? is evil dependent on God?
``It is not based on hearsay passed through hearsay passed through hearsay.....ad infinitum, about someone, somewhere claiming to bring a message from God.`` I`m not sure I understand what you mean here, is your problem heresay ad infinitum, or the claim of prophethood or the particular message? Is your point that Islam is heresay? or that you have experienced many persons talking about it? or that Islam is not legitimate, or the ``Truth``?
Are you arguing that Hindus were a majority or a very significant minority in what is now Pakistan? Unfortunately I do not know where I may find the cencus numbers you are referring to - do you know if these are available on the web? The figures you cite, were they used to distinguish Muslim majority areas?
Re Your approval of and association with VHP version of Indian history:
``I certainly do not. VHP/BJP believe in distorting Indian history to conform to their view of ``Muslim bad-Hindu good`` creed. I detest any attempt by anyone to distort history to serve political ends, whether the distortion is done by Marxists or by Sanghis.`` AND YET, you say things like Pakistan employed ``Final solution`` with regard to Hindus??? By your statements you prove yourself to have an affinity to expressing VHP worldview with regard to Indian History and in particular, it`s attitudes towards Islam and Muslims. Philosophy of history - study it! understand it! - I`m not arguing against anyone`s right to hold whatever view, but one does at the least, remain conscious that ``historical facts`` are historical and facts only when called upon. This means educated persons remain conscious of the ``indeterminate`` nature of ``history`` and ``facts``, that it is incumbent upon them to be ``open`` to any number of ``truth seeking`` endeavors.
``I do however believe in Naipaul`s views regarding the change in the worldview of the convert to Islam. So, apparently do you, except that you simply call it an exercise of choices.``
``Simply`` a matter of choices? No, indeed a matter of conscience! Do you see, how you have negated the denials you asserted above? To say that a religious conversion or even a acceptance or attachment to a intellectual philosophy, changes ones world view is the equivalent of asserting that during the day, the sun light is illuminating; these are tautologous statements.
You want the Muslim to be a Muslim but espouse a Hindu worldview? If it were ``true`` that you do not express the VHP view of Indian history and attitudes towards Islam and Muslims, why would you express support of Naipaul`s hateful and alienated, point of view?
``while you would gladly give ME the choice of rejecting my religion, you would not give the same choice to someone who inherited yours.`` Go AHEAD, Prove me LIAR to all Chowk, prove to them that you have knowledge of what I would do.
``My agreement with Rushdie`s views re. the evil influence of religion is a choice of a different kind, based on facts, evidence and analysis to the best of my faculties, which can be debated and can also be changed if contrary facts and analyses are persuasive enough.``
In other words you have experienced, have evidence, that you have interpreted to mean that God is an evil in the world? that what by conception and definition is ``Good`` (see the relationship of the word to the word, God) is actually evil? - and you are a rational and educated person? - In your experience you have seem more evil than good from God? or do you mean you have seen evil done in the name of God? if the latter, how is God the problem? is evil dependent on God?
``It is not based on hearsay passed through hearsay passed through hearsay.....ad infinitum, about someone, somewhere claiming to bring a message from God.`` I`m not sure I understand what you mean here, is your problem heresay ad infinitum, or the claim of prophethood or the particular message? Is your point that Islam is heresay? or that you have experienced many persons talking about it? or that Islam is not legitimate, or the ``Truth``?
#143 Posted by hobbyty on March 9, 2002 12:33:52 pm
Banjara
You may find more amusement in my suggestion that Indian Muslims may acquire self defence weapons from the same suppliers as the freedom fighters of captive kashmir do - yes, perhaps even Landi Kotal, but why go so far, Muslims in India who wish to defend their families and properties can take those weapons from the armouries of the Indian army
#142 Posted by hobbyty on March 9, 2002 12:33:52 pm
Dost Mittar
I am not surprised that you are ``amazed`` about the fact that persons have ``choices`` with regard to conscience. There is much you seem ``unconscious`` of and the making of ``choices`` is one of them. Any action you take is making a ``choice`` - whether you are conscious of it or not.
That you ``think`` the core of Rushdie`s argument against God is ``true`` is also a choice; ``true``? how would you know that? I suspect your response is not be one based on reason but one based on your ``experience`` - ``true`` would be subjective or objective, in such a framework?
As for Pakistan`s ``final solution`` - again, is the assertion that such a ``solution`` had been employed, would that be an assertion based on reason or more of your experience? You express the VHP philosophy of ``Indian`` history and like a majority of non-Muslim Indians, you express a psychological need to have your self esteem bolstered, by falsehood if necessary, is a nuisannce; Muslims who moved to Pakistan from India, did so because of Pakistan`s ``final solution``? That there are realtively smaller numbers of Hindus present in Pakistan is due to the fact that the number of Hindus in Pakistan was rather small, that is that the area already had a very non-Hindu majority.
Caste is objectionable, hatred is objectionable, ``needing`` praise, needing to be acknowledged as great, as powerful is objectionable; To seek to attack God, besides being ridiculouly arrogant, is to absolve those who remain unconscious of behaviours that are contrary to those pleasing to God.
#140 Posted by rsaxena on March 8, 2002 9:13:37 pm
re: sadna
{{1. Ideological and Political influence
If I am not mistaken, KKK is only a fringe member of the Christian Coalition which is itself is finally only a faction ( perhaps an important one) of the Republican party.}}
last i checked there were more than 20 coalition partners in the NDA, effectively giving the BJP fractional power, and making the VHP a fraction of that fraction. how is it different from the christian coalition, with links to KKK, having mouthpieces in Bush`s government?
{Through public education and public consensus, the KKK and its ideology now represent the views of only a tiny mostly unseen minority.}
so what are you implying? that the VHP represents the views of the indian majority? if that is indeed true, then what are you suggesting? that we trash the democratic process and throw out something that a majority of indians support? which is it?
{{broad public consensus ensures that definately noone in government at the national or state levels and perhaps local levels can afford to be seen to sympathise with KKK`s world view much less claim organisational allegiance to KKK.}}
hence ABV has not succumbed to VHP`s demands, and watches his words carefully....
{As I said, for Indians there is still a lot of work to be done and a long way to go.}
many indians do not see the issue as simplistically as you do, and hence they don`t believe the solution will be as simplistic as the one you are proposing (make VHP a `terrorist organization` and get ABV to utter some statements)...i suspect you will have difficulty trying to get all indians to jump on your bandwagon...but good luck...
{{1. Ideological and Political influence
If I am not mistaken, KKK is only a fringe member of the Christian Coalition which is itself is finally only a faction ( perhaps an important one) of the Republican party.}}
last i checked there were more than 20 coalition partners in the NDA, effectively giving the BJP fractional power, and making the VHP a fraction of that fraction. how is it different from the christian coalition, with links to KKK, having mouthpieces in Bush`s government?
{Through public education and public consensus, the KKK and its ideology now represent the views of only a tiny mostly unseen minority.}
so what are you implying? that the VHP represents the views of the indian majority? if that is indeed true, then what are you suggesting? that we trash the democratic process and throw out something that a majority of indians support? which is it?
{{broad public consensus ensures that definately noone in government at the national or state levels and perhaps local levels can afford to be seen to sympathise with KKK`s world view much less claim organisational allegiance to KKK.}}
hence ABV has not succumbed to VHP`s demands, and watches his words carefully....
{As I said, for Indians there is still a lot of work to be done and a long way to go.}
many indians do not see the issue as simplistically as you do, and hence they don`t believe the solution will be as simplistic as the one you are proposing (make VHP a `terrorist organization` and get ABV to utter some statements)...i suspect you will have difficulty trying to get all indians to jump on your bandwagon...but good luck...
#138 Posted by Banjaara on March 8, 2002 9:13:37 pm
hobbyty #131 & Ali1 #133
Your advise to the indian muslims is funny to say the least.hobbyty suggests Hunting Guns if Automatic guns are not available.Ali1 advises them
to hide it and not be seen walking with them till
such time they are needed for protection.There is
a slight problem with your advise.Where do they buy these auto/hunting type guns .LandiKotal,
Bara or Darra Adam Khel? Because,in India they need a licence to buy these `toys`.And the `bad`
indians donot give gun licence to the `good`
muslims.The only solution is free AK-47s to the
muslims by ISI.
For god`s sake leave the indian muslims to fend
for themselves.They dont need our advise.Let`s
try and resist our own fundamentalist ``kar sevaks``
from taking over our lives and property before
it is too late.
Regards.
Your advise to the indian muslims is funny to say the least.hobbyty suggests Hunting Guns if Automatic guns are not available.Ali1 advises them
to hide it and not be seen walking with them till
such time they are needed for protection.There is
a slight problem with your advise.Where do they buy these auto/hunting type guns .LandiKotal,
Bara or Darra Adam Khel? Because,in India they need a licence to buy these `toys`.And the `bad`
indians donot give gun licence to the `good`
muslims.The only solution is free AK-47s to the
muslims by ISI.
For god`s sake leave the indian muslims to fend
for themselves.They dont need our advise.Let`s
try and resist our own fundamentalist ``kar sevaks``
from taking over our lives and property before
it is too late.
Regards.
#137 Posted by saminashah on March 8, 2002 9:13:37 pm
Nawal El Saadawi Basics
Egypt was once the tolerant face of the Arab world, but even before the terrorist attacks of 11 September an Islamic backlash had bred a new intolerance. The most recent victim of this intolerance is feminist writer Nawal El Saadawi.
Fiona Lloyd-Davies reports
Nawal El Saadawi is the first woman in Egyptian history to be threatened with a forced divorce for expressing her views. She was accused of apostasy - renouncing one`s religion - for allegedly insulting Islam.
Apostasy is a crime in Islam and the consequences are serious. If found guilty Nawal would be forcibly divorced from Sherif, her husband of 37 years and face a three-year prison term.
The views expressed by 70- year old Nawal enrage people and her shock of flowing, white hair causes outrage. Whether you agree with what she says or not it is hard to ignore her.
Meeting Nawal
When I arrive at her 26th floor apartment I am struck by two of the most dramatic views of Cairo you could ask for. From the sitting room, a large window opens onto a balcony from where you can see the Nile snaking its way into the distance, the artery of the country.
Opposite, from the kitchen you see the reverse view, the higgledy piggledy rooftops of the city of Cairo, home to nine million people.
It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that: but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action
Sherif
Here in this tower, as the Nile breeze relieves the heat of the desert and the dust of the city traffic, you feel you are in the heart of Cairo but distanced from it at the same time. Not unlike Nawal - an Arab and a Muslim but also a feminist fighting against convention for parity of the sexes.
Her eyes burn bright with an intensity and passion when we talk about rights - the right to express yourself, the right to think, the right to fight for an equal society.
Nawal and Sherif
Now, Nawal and Sherif are fighting a battle that threatens them both.
They first met after Sherif was released from 15 years` imprisonment for illegal leftist political activism. He was 40 and had spent his youth in solitary confinement and breaking rocks in a scalding desert prison known as ``the Incinerator``.
Nawal`s husband, Dr Sherif Hetata
``We don`t believe in just writing,`` says Sherif. ``We think that writers should try to put what they say into some form of action.
``It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action, and do something about it, and speak out and that`s why she has all these problems.``
Nawal`s outspokenness has caused her many problems. As the first Arab woman to speak out against female circumcision 30 years ago Nawal was sacked from her ministerial job of Director of Public Health.
In 1981 after criticising Sadat`s regime she was imprisoned. Nawal`s name appeared on a fundamentalist death list and both she and Sherif were forced into exile.
But neither Nawal nor Sherif saw this latest battle looming.
The interview
It all started this March when Nawal agreed to be interviewed by Wahid Ra`fat, a journalist working for an Egyptian weekly, Al Maydan.
There was a lot to talk about - four of Nawal`s books had just been banned at the Cairo Book Fair, not an unusual event in Egypt but certainly enough to cause comment.
I spoke how social and economic changes are happening and how we have to modify these laws and to educate people more about the essence of Islam and to change some of the laws
Nawal el Saadawi
It appeared that he knew her work, and Nawal talked about her well known and controversial feminist views on sex and religion. She constantly challenges attitudes to sexuality, the practices of veiling, female circumcision. She condemed the exploitation of religion for political ends.
``I spoke how social and economic changes are happening and how we have to modify these laws and to educate people more about the essence of Islam and to change some of the laws,`` she said. ``I have written that many times and nothing happened.``
What Nawal failed to take into account was how the current climate has changed so radically that even the freedom to speak openly is now in question.
Journalist, Wahid Ra`fat, with a copy of the interview
Cairo may have the air of a Western city but a new, conservative Islam is catching the hearts and minds of ordinary people, stifling any social, cultural or religious questioning that might once have been allowed. Also, at the time of the interview, Muslims were returning from Hajj - the annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca.
It was in this atmosphere that Nawal spoke her ``well-known`` mind.
During the course of the interview, Nawal had referred to the historically accepted fact that elements of the Hajj, such as kissing the black stone had pre-Islamic, pagan roots.
The journalist couldn`t believe his ears. All he heard was Nawal calling the Hajj pagan. ``You`re opening fire,`` he said to Nawal. ``Yes`` she replied, ``but people should know``.
The newspaper articles
Ra`fat returned to his editor, Mohamed Hassan Alafy, who saw immediately that the story would run and run. He led the front page that week with ``Dr Nawal El Saadawi says Hajj is a remnant of paganism.``
``We want her to be beheaded.``
Reader`s letter to Al Maydan
Readers of the newspaper were led to excerpts of Nawal`s interview with the line: ``She has exploded bombs by her inflammatory opinions.``
Mr Alafy, an urbane man who speaks fluent English, looked at us with incredulity when we asked him why he published this. ``We publish the newspaper to have a reaction - if you don`t have a reaction you are a dead newspaper right?`` And he got a reaction.
The next issue featured responses to Nawal`s interview from Islamic scholars. Alongside them were printed four readers` letters, one of which called for Nawal to be beheaded. The reader had written: ``Nawal Al Saadawi says things in her interview that don`t just humiliate Islam but also don`t respect Allah the greatest. We want her to be beheaded.``
Grand Mufti, Sheik Nas Farid Wassel
Next, the paper upped the stakes by taking the interview to the Grand Mufti, eager to get a fatwa. Four weeks after the first hysterical headlines the paper led with Nawal`s story once more, but this time it read ``Nawal angers Mufti...``
This was a green light. Now anyone who wanted to be seen as defender of the faith had legitimacy from the highest Islamic authority in the land. The Mufti had been clear - if Nawal had said what the paper claimed she had said, there was no doubt, she had rejected Islam.
The lawyer
One man, a lawyer named Nabih el Wahsh, decided to seize the moment, knowing that the situation was ripe for a public battle between the conservative interpretation of Islam and the more liberal attitudes towards freedom of speech.
``She also denied a verse in the Koran which says that men are entitled to twice the inheritance of women. Who is she to demand equality? Is she greater than God?``
Nabih el Wahsh
Nabih was used to high profile cases. He had incurred a few wry column inches in the world press after the infamous case he brought against the British Royal family for orchestrating the death of Princess Diana. In Egypt`s present climate his maverick court actions can do real harm.
What was it that had infuriated him so much? ``Firstly, her denial of the Hajj, which is one pillar of Islam. She categorically said that Hajj and the kissing of the black stone are remnants of paganism. She also denied a verse in the Koran which says that men are entitled to twice the inheritance of women. Who is she to demand equality? Is she greater than God?``
In his self-appointed role as guardian of the faith, Nabih el Wahsh invoked the ancient Islamic law of Hisba. Under Hisba any individual can sue another if they believe they are harming a person or religion. Nawal found herself accused of insulting religion. ``I am the only woman in Islamic history that they`ve applied Hisba to, it`s ridiculous,`` she said.
Egypt was watching closely. While she was accused of religious dissent many journalists were sceptical of Wahsh`s motives - was he really protecting Islam?
The verdict
Finally, after some prevarication, the court declared on 30th July that there was no case to answer. She will not go to prison and she and Sherif will not be forcibly divorced.
Nawal El Saadawi faces a dilemma
But she has a dilemma. Either she can leave the country and speak freely about the situation in Egypt or she can stay and face danger every time anybody chooses to exploit religion for personal or political gain.
Since the events of 11 September it has become even more difficult to criticise Islam from within, but Nawal El Sadaawi is determined to carry on her struggle.
BBC
Egypt was once the tolerant face of the Arab world, but even before the terrorist attacks of 11 September an Islamic backlash had bred a new intolerance. The most recent victim of this intolerance is feminist writer Nawal El Saadawi.
Fiona Lloyd-Davies reports
Nawal El Saadawi is the first woman in Egyptian history to be threatened with a forced divorce for expressing her views. She was accused of apostasy - renouncing one`s religion - for allegedly insulting Islam.
Apostasy is a crime in Islam and the consequences are serious. If found guilty Nawal would be forcibly divorced from Sherif, her husband of 37 years and face a three-year prison term.
The views expressed by 70- year old Nawal enrage people and her shock of flowing, white hair causes outrage. Whether you agree with what she says or not it is hard to ignore her.
Meeting Nawal
When I arrive at her 26th floor apartment I am struck by two of the most dramatic views of Cairo you could ask for. From the sitting room, a large window opens onto a balcony from where you can see the Nile snaking its way into the distance, the artery of the country.
Opposite, from the kitchen you see the reverse view, the higgledy piggledy rooftops of the city of Cairo, home to nine million people.
It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that: but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action
Sherif
Here in this tower, as the Nile breeze relieves the heat of the desert and the dust of the city traffic, you feel you are in the heart of Cairo but distanced from it at the same time. Not unlike Nawal - an Arab and a Muslim but also a feminist fighting against convention for parity of the sexes.
Her eyes burn bright with an intensity and passion when we talk about rights - the right to express yourself, the right to think, the right to fight for an equal society.
Nawal and Sherif
Now, Nawal and Sherif are fighting a battle that threatens them both.
They first met after Sherif was released from 15 years` imprisonment for illegal leftist political activism. He was 40 and had spent his youth in solitary confinement and breaking rocks in a scalding desert prison known as ``the Incinerator``.
Nawal`s husband, Dr Sherif Hetata
``We don`t believe in just writing,`` says Sherif. ``We think that writers should try to put what they say into some form of action.
``It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action, and do something about it, and speak out and that`s why she has all these problems.``
Nawal`s outspokenness has caused her many problems. As the first Arab woman to speak out against female circumcision 30 years ago Nawal was sacked from her ministerial job of Director of Public Health.
In 1981 after criticising Sadat`s regime she was imprisoned. Nawal`s name appeared on a fundamentalist death list and both she and Sherif were forced into exile.
But neither Nawal nor Sherif saw this latest battle looming.
The interview
It all started this March when Nawal agreed to be interviewed by Wahid Ra`fat, a journalist working for an Egyptian weekly, Al Maydan.
There was a lot to talk about - four of Nawal`s books had just been banned at the Cairo Book Fair, not an unusual event in Egypt but certainly enough to cause comment.
I spoke how social and economic changes are happening and how we have to modify these laws and to educate people more about the essence of Islam and to change some of the laws
Nawal el Saadawi
It appeared that he knew her work, and Nawal talked about her well known and controversial feminist views on sex and religion. She constantly challenges attitudes to sexuality, the practices of veiling, female circumcision. She condemed the exploitation of religion for political ends.
``I spoke how social and economic changes are happening and how we have to modify these laws and to educate people more about the essence of Islam and to change some of the laws,`` she said. ``I have written that many times and nothing happened.``
What Nawal failed to take into account was how the current climate has changed so radically that even the freedom to speak openly is now in question.
Journalist, Wahid Ra`fat, with a copy of the interview
Cairo may have the air of a Western city but a new, conservative Islam is catching the hearts and minds of ordinary people, stifling any social, cultural or religious questioning that might once have been allowed. Also, at the time of the interview, Muslims were returning from Hajj - the annual Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca.
It was in this atmosphere that Nawal spoke her ``well-known`` mind.
During the course of the interview, Nawal had referred to the historically accepted fact that elements of the Hajj, such as kissing the black stone had pre-Islamic, pagan roots.
The journalist couldn`t believe his ears. All he heard was Nawal calling the Hajj pagan. ``You`re opening fire,`` he said to Nawal. ``Yes`` she replied, ``but people should know``.
The newspaper articles
Ra`fat returned to his editor, Mohamed Hassan Alafy, who saw immediately that the story would run and run. He led the front page that week with ``Dr Nawal El Saadawi says Hajj is a remnant of paganism.``
``We want her to be beheaded.``
Reader`s letter to Al Maydan
Readers of the newspaper were led to excerpts of Nawal`s interview with the line: ``She has exploded bombs by her inflammatory opinions.``
Mr Alafy, an urbane man who speaks fluent English, looked at us with incredulity when we asked him why he published this. ``We publish the newspaper to have a reaction - if you don`t have a reaction you are a dead newspaper right?`` And he got a reaction.
The next issue featured responses to Nawal`s interview from Islamic scholars. Alongside them were printed four readers` letters, one of which called for Nawal to be beheaded. The reader had written: ``Nawal Al Saadawi says things in her interview that don`t just humiliate Islam but also don`t respect Allah the greatest. We want her to be beheaded.``
Grand Mufti, Sheik Nas Farid Wassel
Next, the paper upped the stakes by taking the interview to the Grand Mufti, eager to get a fatwa. Four weeks after the first hysterical headlines the paper led with Nawal`s story once more, but this time it read ``Nawal angers Mufti...``
This was a green light. Now anyone who wanted to be seen as defender of the faith had legitimacy from the highest Islamic authority in the land. The Mufti had been clear - if Nawal had said what the paper claimed she had said, there was no doubt, she had rejected Islam.
The lawyer
One man, a lawyer named Nabih el Wahsh, decided to seize the moment, knowing that the situation was ripe for a public battle between the conservative interpretation of Islam and the more liberal attitudes towards freedom of speech.
``She also denied a verse in the Koran which says that men are entitled to twice the inheritance of women. Who is she to demand equality? Is she greater than God?``
Nabih el Wahsh
Nabih was used to high profile cases. He had incurred a few wry column inches in the world press after the infamous case he brought against the British Royal family for orchestrating the death of Princess Diana. In Egypt`s present climate his maverick court actions can do real harm.
What was it that had infuriated him so much? ``Firstly, her denial of the Hajj, which is one pillar of Islam. She categorically said that Hajj and the kissing of the black stone are remnants of paganism. She also denied a verse in the Koran which says that men are entitled to twice the inheritance of women. Who is she to demand equality? Is she greater than God?``
In his self-appointed role as guardian of the faith, Nabih el Wahsh invoked the ancient Islamic law of Hisba. Under Hisba any individual can sue another if they believe they are harming a person or religion. Nawal found herself accused of insulting religion. ``I am the only woman in Islamic history that they`ve applied Hisba to, it`s ridiculous,`` she said.
Egypt was watching closely. While she was accused of religious dissent many journalists were sceptical of Wahsh`s motives - was he really protecting Islam?
The verdict
Finally, after some prevarication, the court declared on 30th July that there was no case to answer. She will not go to prison and she and Sherif will not be forcibly divorced.
Nawal El Saadawi faces a dilemma
But she has a dilemma. Either she can leave the country and speak freely about the situation in Egypt or she can stay and face danger every time anybody chooses to exploit religion for personal or political gain.
Since the events of 11 September it has become even more difficult to criticise Islam from within, but Nawal El Sadaawi is determined to carry on her struggle.
BBC
#136 Posted by bong_dongs on March 8, 2002 9:13:37 pm
Well, something off topic here:
Khalid Ahmed`s article in the latest TFT:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news9.htm
Has the following quote:
``Hinduism, through the anti-women teachings of Ramakrishnan(sic), had inclined the rural Muslim Bengali to misogynism.``
I would assume he means Ramkrishna Paramhans, who is highly venerated in Bengal. So what is this misogynist techings he is talking about, can anyne shed more light?
Khalid Ahmed`s article in the latest TFT:
http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news9.htm
Has the following quote:
``Hinduism, through the anti-women teachings of Ramakrishnan(sic), had inclined the rural Muslim Bengali to misogynism.``
I would assume he means Ramkrishna Paramhans, who is highly venerated in Bengal. So what is this misogynist techings he is talking about, can anyne shed more light?
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