Why Are We Killing Ourselves?

this is just an FYI info submission...received this mail forwarded by a friend...some may find this relevant...some amusing...

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from an activist in India about their meeting with Vajpayee regarding the present communal outbreak, and the second from Frontline about the nuclear threat.

Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 00:29:00 +0530
From: xxxxxx

Dear Friends,

Some of us met with the PM today. I`m enclosing the formal press release. I don`t think any of us left the meeting satisfied. No explanations were provided, no assurances given. It felt like being
in a sere wasteland. I was deeply disappointed by the lack of a humane response. However, this should only make us more determined not only to resist these forces, but seriously question our political system which allows people without conscience or moral authority to hold the highest offices of our land.

This afternoon we gathered at India Gate which was packed with families on Sunday afternoon. We were about a hundred and fifty with banners and placards. We threaded through the holiday makers singing songs of love and amity between the communities. I felt we were welcome and that people were open to our message. At dusk we lit
candles.

Tomorrow, Mon. 4 March, 10:30 am Join the journalists at a protest at the Press Club. As many of you already know the press has been under
tremendous pressure to toe the government line. If you havent already please counter the Hindutva hate mail campaign by emailing ndtv for their unbiased Gujrat reportage. (newshour@ndtv.com)
11:00 am Protest at Delhi University. Vivekananda Statue.

We are planning to send a team to Gujrat on a fact finding and humanitarian mission. Do we have volunteers from Delhi? Please email me if you are interested. Right now opinion seems divided on when the mission should leave. Things should be clearer by tomorrow, but it will be good to know soon if people are willing to go.


As I prepare to turn in for the night just a few moments ago I hear a sound which makes me rush out onto my terrace. The spring breeze brings me bits of song from, I think, Arab ki Sarai as the Dargah is surely too far away. It is the qawwals singing praises of Nizamuddin Auliya. My heart lifts. This they will never be able to kill, burn or maim.

regards

xxxxx



PRESS RELEASE
Mar. 3, 2002.

A group of concerned citizens including the noted Gandhian, Nirmala Deshpande, Rev. Valson Thampu, Syeda Hameed, Prakash Louis and Sonia Jabbar met the Prime Minister and presented a memorandum with seven recommendations that would help contain the violence engulfing the country this past week. The text of which has been reproduced in full below.

The Prime Minister gave the group a patient hearing and agreed that there was a grave crisis in the country. However, he added that it would be an exaggeration to state that all of Gujrat was burning when the violence was limited to a few places. He also said that the media had not played a constructive role in the crisis, by continuously showing scenes of carnage.

When asked why it took so long to deploy the army, Mr. Vajpayee answered that the non-availability of adequate forces made it impossible to extend protection to all areas. When asked about the possibility of banning groups like the VHP, he said that there were legal implications which needed to be addressed, but in any case there were negotiations on with the VHP to bring the Ayodhya issue to a close.

The delegation pressed the Prime Minister to rise to the occasion as befitting a mature statesman, and pointed out that if General Musharraf could ban fundamentalist organisations in Pakistan, why
could Mr. Vajpayee not do the same here. ``He is a dictator and can ban anyone. We are a democracy,`` the Prime Minister replied.

TEXT OF THE MEMORANDUM PRESENTED TO THE PRIME MINISTER

We gather before you today to mourn the lives of hundreds of innocent Indians which have been brutally extinguished in the name of religion. We stand before you to plead for the lives of thousands of others which may be lost if you hesitate or falter for even another moment. Indeed, the very fabric of this great country stands to be rent asunder if immediate action is not taken by you. The whole world is watching, Sir, and all the gains in repute and prestige that you have built for this nation through painstaking efforts over the last few years stands to be lost forever. The events of the past few days have reduced us to the same level as our neighbours: a nation prone to bouts of uncontrolled barbarism.

And yet, as we know, it is never too late to avert disaster. As concerned citizens, we humbly submit a series of recommendations which we believe will act as a salve to the wounds of the nation:

1. The Prime Minister must address the people of India immediately outlining the steps taken to stem the chaos engulfing the nation. It is imperative to instill a sense of confidence in those who have been shaken by the terrible carnage of the last few days. The only way
that India can resolutely disprove the two-nation theory is by providing an unshakeable sense of security to its minorities. But words, however soothing must be backed by firm and steadfast action.

2. The custodians of the safety and welfare of the people of Gujrat have failed miserably in their duty. On the contrary they have aided and abetted the cold-blooded murder of hundreds of Indian citizens. The Prime Minister cannot hesitate in holding them accountable and dismissing them from office.

3. The truth of the Godhra episode must be brought to light and the guilty punished in an exemplary fashion. Crimes perpetrated in the name of religion and politics must no longer go unpunished.

4. An immediate impartial inquiry must be conducted into the communal carnage in Gujrat, with special focus on state inaction and the avoidable loss of life and property resulting from it, responsibility should be fixed and the guilty be punished.

5. The Home Minister must perform his duty in accordance with his office as guardian of the nation`s internal security, and leave immediately for Gujrat to oversee the security arrangements. The government must not allow, at any cost, any further rioting or killings.

6. The communal tension created on account of the Ram mandir issue and the threat to build the mandir in total defiance of the court orders, belong to the realm of terrorism and need to be handled as such. There must no longer be any talk of a compromise. The VHP and the Bajrang Dal must be treated on equal par with SIMI and be banned
with immediate effect.

7. This would allow the administration in Ayodhya and the rest of the country to apply the strictest laws of the land to curb the unruly karsevaks and prevent them from further damaging the nation`s polity.

We realise that there are many political compulsions which may make even the strongest of men falter. But, Sir, we respectfully submit that India has too many politicians and too fewstatesmen. Let history remember you as the Prime Minister who showed great resolve in this terrible crisis and guided the nation out of darkness. We are confident that the people of India will stand by your decision.

Yours faithfully,

Nirmala Deshpande, Rev. Valson Thampu, Syeda Hameed, Prakash Louis, and Sonia Jabbar

Well we are all outraged Mr. Malik. But then no amount of analysis or emotional appeal can help bridge this kind of a schism that exists between various communities throughout the World.

There are regions/ time periods in the World which do not/did not get affected by this kind of mindless violence, despite being populated by diverse ethnic groups. Loosely speaking wherever there is prosperity and a strong leadership in a multi-ethnic society, there are very few such problems. In countries of Asia or Africa, people have no future to look forward to. There only respite is provided by an age old belief system which promises them rich rewards in this life and heaven beyond this life.

It would be very difficult to pinpoint and analyse the causes of such mindless violence and put an end to it by framing policies. Don`t you think poverty and organized religions are the biggest source of such communal violence? Do you believe, if USA were to be as poor as any third world country, there would be no such violence in that country too?

Adios

Romair #35 and #55:

(…apologies in advance for this longish reply...played with the idea of saying let us agree to disagree and move on…khair…I went back to my original post…guess it must be one of those days when one cannot clearly elucidate…so allow me …[sigh]…to comment on my words…what I may have wanted to say…shall use caps…!

from temporal # 1:

[…Huntington aside…I think we should EXAMINE the recent subcontinental holocausts from ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE…

…CONSIDER some of the following:
---the RELEASE of taped telephonic conversation between musharraff and his chief of staff around kargil TO the indian media.
---YANKING the support from under mullah omar.
---the ATTACK on indian parliament december 13.
---RESUMPTION of targeted shia killings in karachi and elsewhere.
---KIDNAP and MURDER of daniel pearl.
---CONTINUED protection provided dawood ibrahim.
---INCITING OR MANEUVERING the godhra muslim urchins to terrorise the hindu train passengers (with almost guaranteed reaction from the hindu urchins).
---the PRESUURE applied on jang group’s owners to fire shaheen sehbai (remember him from chowk?), investigative reporter kamran khan and two others.
…THERE IS A CASE TO BE MADE for these tell-tale signs OF AN INTERNAL TURF BATTLE INSIDE ISI…

…now to your posts…


[…Could you site some precendences?)…]

---just one should suffice…musharraf was seething with anger when his message was NOT conveyed to mullah omar…in fact it was contradicted…this was after sep 11 but prior to us bombings…

[…I fail to understand the connection of this email (#51)with the incident in Gujrat…]

---the turf battle is what i am alluding to..news reported a link between isi and delhi parliament attack…so the ads were withheld..when that did not work some more pressure was applied on mir…

…now if you will excuse me I got to get to harish and see if he has changed anything in that poem…but before that…one final thought…promise you no more on this subject…all i had wanted to do was to explore the possibility…and the feedback here has provided some interesting shades…thanks…

rgds,

t

FerozeK #53: ``Romair, nothing can be said with certainity unless ISI settles the debate itself. ``

Could you explain this in furthur detail....

RE: Reply #: 60 hobbyty

``The events of the last five days are reminder to all of us of the fragility, the arrogance of our positions.

It`s tragic but many Indians still cannot seem to bring themselves to accept that by their support to organizations such as BJP, VHP, etc., they share a responsibility for the events in Gujjrat.``

Hobbyty,

Most Indians are aware of the shennanigans of the above said organizations and try to do pirouettes around them to lead their daily lives but once in a while they are forced to land with a thud in the midst of situations like the present one.

In the midst of your righteousness, just ask yourself: do you seriously think that the thugs who happen to be Muslim (notice I didn`t say Muslim thugs) didn`t foresee the consequences of burning down the train in such a gruesome manner. Admit that the madness is universal and what these extremists want is a dialogue of the deaf where they make of like bandits (just like in Pakistan).

Here is an article by M J Akbar, whose astute insights I have admired for a long time. It will show you who was responsible for letting out the genie of Hindu nationalism which had been bottled up so effectively by the far-sightedness of India`s first leaders:

Why many questions still hang over India

New Delhi | By M.J. Akbar | 04-03-2002

A child born in the year that Rajiv Gandhi became prime minister of India would have the right to vote today. A child born in 1985 would vote in the next general election. He would be 17 today.

In 1985 the Supreme Court of India decided in favour of an elderly and unknown Muslim divorcee from Indore, the daughter of a head constable, Shah Bano, who had been asking, for seven years in lower courts, for just Rs.500 from her husband as maintenance.

She thought this amount reasonable compensation from a man who had been her husband for 43 years, before divorcing her in order to marry again. The Supreme Court agreed. The husband felt otherwise; he argued that according to his interpretation of Muslim law he had paid his wife the mehr and idda (maintenance for three months) that was due.

The Supreme Court ruled that under the Constitution a former husband had to provide reasonable support to a divorcee if she had no means of supporting herself.

The news first appeared on the edges of the media. Then, gradually, it began to acquire ballast. A section of the country`s self-appointed Muslim leaders thought they had found a route map back to relevance. This judgment, instead of being addressed with a sense of responsibility, was turned into a weapon to challenge the Constitution of India.

Certain Muslim leaders, notably Syed Shahabuddin and the ever-present Shahi Imam (father of the incumbent), decided that the proper response to the Supreme Court was hysteria designed to provoke a virtual revolt of Muslims against the Indian state. It was as unprecedented as it was artificial.

Shahabuddin consciously used the language and idiom of separatism, while the clerics dusted off that old and paradoxical cry that Islam was in danger. (This is paradoxical because, for the believer, faith cannot be in danger from men.)

Large rallies were held where the rhetoric was acid, the provocation severe and the intention vicious. But what left the country aghast was the slow retreat and sudden capitulation by the Congress government of the still inexperienced Rajiv Gandhi under this hysterical assault.

In May 1986 the Congress forced through what was called, without irony, the Muslim Women (Protection of Rights on Divorce) Bill. Trying to balance appeasement of fanatic Muslims with appeasement of fanatic Hindus, Rajiv Gandhi, apparently advised by his friend and relative Arun Nehru, reopened the locked gates of the spot known as Babri Mosque.

If L.K. Advani, whose party, the BJP, had been reduced to two seats in the 1984-85 Lok Sabha (even Atal Bihari Vajpayee had been defeated, in Gwalior) had beamed at that point, he would have been fully justified.

He now decided to teach the government of India, which had bowed to Muslim fundamentalists, just how powerful Hindu hysteria could be. Long after Shah Bano has been forgotten, the drums of Ayodhya still resonate through the life and blood of our country.

That child of 1985 has been weaned on the idiom of the Hindu-Muslim conflict, and nothing else, ever since he was born.

A child born in 1947 would certainly have heard of the terrible riots of Partition in family stories, and perhaps seen the pain in his parents` eyes, but there was also the heady ideology of socialism in the air as he grew up anywhere in the country.

Idealism had options in the 1960s, from the khaddar band of Ram Manohar Lohia to the crimson violence of the Naxalites. There were political and economic causes to stir the young in the 1970s, for democracy and an equitable society.

But from the 1980s Indians have heard nothing but the sound of communal violence, whether in the brief but powerful secessionist movement in Punjab; in the horror of the anti-Sikh riots and the continuing waste and desolation of the Hindu-Muslim conflict, a confrontation over many battlefields; in sectarian caste wars, or in the dull thud of the daily toll from Kashmir. Those children of 16 and 17, propelled by masterminds filled with hate, are spreading terror in Gujarat today.

They have fed on this diet for so long that they know no other. This is a generation that has lived through two decades of darkness punctuated by the flash of sword, fire and gunshot. It is a time in our history when the living feed off death.

To an extent this dance of necromancers is a puppet, but the masters pulling the strings are not only invisible but also intelligent. The trick is not to pull the strings, or perhaps have no strings at all. All that the puppeteers have to do is clear the stage and allow free space for havoc to reign over a specified period of time. Two days is generally considered sufficient for hate to exhaust itself.

To be fair to Narendra Modi, he is not the first politician to use a blind eye. Congress prime ministers and chief ministers have repeatedly had other things to do when the wind they had sown turned into fire-laden whirlwinds.

The most notable example still remains the imperturbable P.V. Narasimha Rao who could not be perturbed when the Babri Mosque was being destroyed. He remained a picture of stoicism during the riots of 1992 and 1993, which must rank as the worst in a terrible history.

The Congress played this game through duplicity; the BJP plays it straight. The Congress had to pretend to be secular and show concern for Muslims since it wanted their vote. The BJP knows that it cannot get the Muslim vote and so uses any opportunity to consolidate such elements of the Hindu vote as can be turned in its direction.

One week ago the BJP chief minister was struggling to win a by-election in Gujarat. Today, thanks to the appalling crimes of Muslims at Godhra and rampant, killing Hindu mobs in Ahmedabad, Vadodara, Rajkot, Mehsana, Surat and a dozen other places, the BJP would be happy to consider any form of election in the state.

You reward ``sentiment`` and ``sentiment`` rewards you. Little wonder that the BJP has sent official congratulations to Chief Minister Narendra Modi for doing an excellent job in the political management of ``sentiment``. Since the ultimate vindication in a democracy is the approval of the ballot box, no one argues with a potential winner. The means are irrelevant to end.

Here is a suggestion for Narendra Modi and all his successors: please end prohibition in Gujarat. Gujarat is the only state in the country that still persists with the formality of what was once a national obligation.

It does so, they all explain, out of respect for a great son of the soil, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Is this what the Mahatma wanted to be remembered for, his prohibition policy?

Gujarat has flaunted every other message of the Mahatma, has shredded the spirit of that great soul at every level, among the people as well as the administration. Why should the government show such deference to one comparatively minor element of the Gandhian philosophy when it has no respect for anything that the man did or represented?

Why should the people want any law because of Gandhi? They have forgotten him as well. Did the mobs who turned the last few days into a nightmare think that they were the heirs of Bapu?

Maybe a small test would illustrate the point.

Do a test among those who were born in the year that Rajiv Gandhi became prime minister or even go back to the year that Shah Bano filed her petition against her husband in a local court of Indore under the Prevention of Destitution and Vagrancy Act, 1978. Ask them who was Bapu.

If one out of a hundred knew the correct answer I would be surprised.

Make it easier. Ask them who was Gandhi. The brighter ones might answer Indira Gandhi; and Rajiv Gandhi would be familiar. But ask them who was Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, born in 1869 (the year the Suez Canal was opened) in the city of Porbandar in Kathiawar. The answer will tell you why so many questions hang over India.

M.J. Akbar is the Editor, the Asian Age.

HobbyTy:

``It`s not as if they did not know who and what BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, RSS are and what their vision is - yet on these boards, a majority of Indians have defended these same, most vigorously - shamelessly.``

What are you talking about? Please tell me which Indians have taken the positions you mention, thereby constituting a ``majority`` on these boards?

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

. . . why? possibly for the same reason some people make land mines and also give peace prizes?

The events of the last five days are reminder to all of us of the fragility, the arrogance of our positions.

It`s tragic but many Indians still cannot seem to bring themselves to accept that by their support to organizations such as BJP, VHP, etc., they share a responsibility for the events in Gujjrat.

It`s not as if they did not know who and what BJP, VHP, Shiv Sena, Bajrang Dal, RSS are and what their vision is - yet on these boards, a majority of Indians have defended these same, most vigorously - shamelessly.

Even today, the problems lie not in the social and political constructs in India - but rather the problem is the ISI - the Problem is Madares - The problem is Pakistan - the problem is ``Islamic fundamentalism``.

The problem is not communalism, it`s not the fact that religious bigots have garnered enough electoral strength to form governments. No, there was no conspiracy, no army support - overwhelming numbers of Indians are comfortable with the notion that religious bigots should form the national government - is this not incredible? The problem is not the moral inability to accept others as equals - The mantra of ``secularism`` has been accepted by Indians as a reality, even as their elected Premier, also a poet, ends his verses with ``say you are proud to be a Hindu`` and statements such as ``we don`t Muslim votes``.

Who are we in Pakistan to say that we do not understand human frailty - we do understand it and it is a fact that this is essentialy an internal matter of the Indians - but it would be naieve to say that events in India do not have repercussions in Pakistan, Pakistan itself is a result, a repercussion of events, in India. Let these events be a lesson to Pakistan and lets hope Indians may also want to see these events as instructive and a picture into a possible future.

An organization that worries more about a comfortable upper middle class woman editors unemplyment & not about human perverted retaliation ,justified on anger & effect of anything is bull sh!t

Digest of the SAJA E-mail Discussion List

http://www.saja.org/lists

SAJA Digest for Saturday, March 02, 2002.

1. PAKISTAN: Editor Shaheen Sehbai resigns citing ``govt pressure``

. Sehbai said today in a

resignation letter addressed to his boss but circulated among colleagues and

friends that he was leaving his post under pressure from the government,

warning that Pakistani officials were sending a message to the press to ``Get

in line, or be ready for the stick.``

In his letter to Mir Shakeelur Rehman, publisher and editor-in-chief of The

News, Sehbai accuses the government of pushing Rehman to fire him and three

reporters. Sehbai said Rehman had asked him to fire reporters Kamran Khan,

Amir Mateen, and Rauf Klasra because their reporting had angered officials.

The Associated Press reported that Sehbai said he would rather quit than

dismiss the reporters.

``CPJ is extremely worried about any signs of government interference with

the free press in Pakistan,`` said CPJ executive director Ann Cooper. ``The

Pakistani press has been one of the few institutions strong enough to help

check the military government.``

Sehbai distributed a copy of a letter from Rehman along with his resignation

letter, both of which were obtained by the Reuters news agency. Rehman`s

letter held Sehbai responsible for an article that ``was perceived to be

damaging to our national interest and elicited [the] severe reaction of the

government,`` according to Reuters.

Sehbai said in his resignation letter that the article in question was one

that appeared on February 17, authored by Kamran Khan, which concerned the

prime suspect in the abduction of slain Wall Street Journal Reporter Daniel

Pearl. In the article, Khan, who also reports for The Washington Post, wrote

that Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh had told investigators he was also involved in

the December 13 suicide squad attack on the Indian Parliament. India blamed

Pakistan-backed militants for the attack, leading to escalating tensions

between the two countries and the looming threat of war on the subcontinent.

The government stopped all advertising in The News after the story appeared

and intensified pressure on the newspaper`s staff, according to Sehbai.

Rehman did not comment on the allegations.

The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) is a New York-based, nonprofit,

nonpartisan organization dedicated to the defense of press freedom around

the world. For more information about press conditions in Pakistan, please

visit our Web site: www.cpj.org.

CONTACT:

Kavita Menon, Asia Program Coordinator, CPJ

re: Romair # 55

There are two key differences between press freedom now and earlier, let us say in Prime Minister Sharif`s, time.

One, Sharif was a ``country bumpkin.`` He did foolish things - like barging into Nijam Sethi`s house, roughing up Jugnu, and arresting Sethi at night! Musharraf will never do that.

Two, even though Sharif was rightly accused of trying to be a dictator, he could be challenged, albeit at considerable cost to the challenger`s property and limb. When his government started applying pressure on the Jung group, the Jung group openly went on war against him. The first thing one saw on their website those days was a HUGE declaration in bold letters as to how the newspaper will NEVER submit to government pressures and accusations. We will fight to the bitter end, they said. Every educated person in Pakistan knew what Sharif was upto. A dictator! they said quite rightly.

Compare that with now when not a peep has been heard from the same newspaper group. In fact, we are probably wasting our time here since the average Pakistani is hardly even AWARE of anything amiss!

One wonders how many people know even about Ghulam Hasnain - the senior jounalist writing for Asia Times and the Times among other publications - who was picked and beaten just recently for trying to find out too much about Pakistani state. To the best of my understanding, that incident too hardly registered with most Pakistanis.

BTW, those who want to see some good pictures of a guy Musharraf ``can not find,`` or has been ``actively but unsuccessfully looking for,`` may want to visit

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewslineSept/coverstory1.htm

and

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewslineSept/coverstory1.htm.

It may be a good idea to take a look soon before the article is taken down. Mr. Hasnain surely won`t be writing any articles like that any more.

Musharraf is a completely different kind of a ruler than Sharif or even Bhutto. Good or bad, or both, it is too soon to tell.

And yes. I agree. Pakistani military has pretty much full control of ISI. Given ISI`s structure, I would be surprised if it wasn`t.

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re: Ferozk # 53

Feroze, you are exactly right. This IS India`s internal problem. And the issue of internal religious hate mongering is a very serious one.

But having said that, there has to be an (decidedly internal) element, agent if you will, that consciously and deliberately collected, organized, and armed a mob that attacked that train. These people must be identified and severely punished. Similarly, people who encouraged and took part in the so called ``revenge attacks`` must be identified and severely punished. Associating either of them with other issues doesn`t help.

We have all got all kinds of neuroses in the form of various real or imaginary complaints against the world. When we start acting on them by killing and burning men, women, and children, we ought to be locked up for good, better, hung by the nearest pole.

temporal #51: I fail to understand the connection of this email with the incident in Gujrat.

The issue you were originally discussing was not press freedom. And once again, any issue in this regard would, as I pointed out, be decided by the govt. and not by the ISI independently. Which was my original point.

If you want to debate that the Pakistan govt. suppresses the press. That is true. This one has been better than other govts. however.

The Pakistani press wallahs themselves suppress each other. Please recall Mushahid Hussain`s actions against the same Kamran Khan and Sethi, and Hussain Haqqani. Yet Mushahid Hussain has free reign even on this website.

But I feel to see how this relates to the explosion in Gujrat.

vereesh #50: ``who is this mysterious force that keeps the Pakistani elements in troublemaker mode, or destructive mode?....It is in the case of India, places like ``Azad Kashmir``, ``Khalistan``, and now ``Gujarat`` . . . who pays whom to meddle?``

From your reply, I almost get the feeling that you feel that India itself is not responsible for anything. In the case of Khalistan, you would have to ask the Sikhs why they were so angry at India. Azad Kashmir is happy and well. However, in case of Indian Kashmir, you would have to ask the Kashmiris. And in case of Gujrat, you would have to ask the people of Gujrat.

But what I am never able to understand is why India never asks the people of these areas what they want. Maybe if you want a clear answer to your question, you would need to ask the locals. If they say, they are up in arms because of the ISI, then by all means blame the ISI. Otherwise, you need to blame India.

But why is India so hesitant to ask the question, to hold the plebescites, and to expose Pakistan? If you don`t want to ask the questions, then let the international organizations ask. But India has started banning international media in Gujrat.

Introspection is a painful process, but in the long run, it is very healthy.......