Buddha of Rumtek

Reply t:

``---well...try posting them here or the speaker’s corner…btw…did you know chowk is programmed to automatically reject some pseudonyms…hope you are not submitting under ‘salman rushdie’;)…``

Hmmmm....that might explain a lot :(((

``essence of the story is diminished…but that is my dilemma!)...language is a beautiful heavenly gift...and if we possess it why not use it to the max to express and communicate our thoughts?...``

The fine arts at their elitest. Some people are not able to digest the fact that ALL words are useful and that at times, nuthin is better then saying ``FUKK.`` However, since we`re all robots, we must assimilate into our euro culture and since they enjoy censoring what is real, we will too. It has to do with someone not knowing the problem, and only attacking its symptom. Being fake. Havin the arts reflect something that is not real, suppressing reality. And one can find himself very lonely around the fake.

Prem: Im really fascinated by this side convo ur having with the family man. I suppose he thinks he`s using some sort of magical code word system that no one else can understand but u. Dont tell him it`s actually a l-a-n-g-u-a-g-e.

Ud have to question the i-n-t-e-l-l-i-g-e-n-c-e of someone who asks for the english translation of vivek...

Prem #54:

...call me courteous...stuck up...old fashioned...conservative...does not bother me one whit...but one thing i do not tolerate easily is the almost casual use of foul/abusive language or what most people consider profanities...(exceptions excepted: i confess to have resorted to using language in a short story that is far worse than ever seen on chowk…and for the same reason am reluctant to submit it…have played around...changed the offending words …deleted them..substituted them…but in the context of story they fit …and without them the essence of the story is diminished…but that is my dilemma!)...language is a beautiful heavenly gift...and if we possess it why not use it to the max to express and communicate our thoughts?...

…in the context of vivek…the air is rarer at the mountain top...and it can be awfully lonely…

rgds,

t

re: DRUMZ # 52, 53

True. That darn vivek can be a heavy curse. Life`s far simpler and richer without it.

re: t # 51

kyon bade bhai? sparkling intelligence is NEVER a problem.

Or, is it? May be when I have my own kids, I will know :)

U want vivik? Channel this: George bush is callin zimbabwe`s election ``flawed.``

Prem: Vivik is not a tool, its a loaded term which means basically bullsh1t to most. It shouldnt even be described, for it can`t be defined. Vivik in many ways is a curse. How the fukk is penetrating life supposed to be of some benefit to anyone who aint on a mountain? Once one shows herself to be ready, this stuff stops being theoretical and once that happens, the craziest sh1t happens to u. And it keeps happening over and over and gets more and more intense and u can`t even describe it to anyone cuz thats some false ego sh1t. If ur mind is not balanced, neutral and stable, even hearing the word `vivik` will drive u insane. ``some recognise the light but they cant handle the glare.``

Then u gotta come up here and make yaself look a fool for three pages arguing some bullsh1t topic that u dont even care about-just to sound human. To penetrate and see the spiritual is not something which should be advised. It is a major responsibility. Things like ``no opinions`` used to sound deep. Now its just real. It means u cant argue anything with any intensity cuz u can argue for the other side too (Hagel: thesis/antithesis/ synthesis). Then there`s no real point in saying anything. U have no zest, everything bounces off u, and u cant speak to it with anyone cuz simple minded fools will just tell u how great u are.

If u wan`t tools, do the following. Whenever u are about to do anything, stop. think about WHY ur doing it. If its for the false ego, stop. That`s it, everything will be shown to u then. Vivik is true and false, lol.

AnNy #43:

:)

...sorry...missed your call...later...


Prem #46:

…thanks for the elaboration…but am still on the look out for an english word…as for the other comments…kyuN bhayee…kya death wish hay?…


soundmeister #48:

[…This ``elitist`` school of poetry is screw1ng my self-esteem. Chowk doesn`t seem interested in any of my prolific output, for better or for verse (err...maybe if I stopped using puns like that I have a better chance?) What`s wrong with simple Inglees I say!..]
---well...try posting them here or the speaker’s corner…btw…did you know chowk is programmed to automatically reject some pseudonyms…hope you are not submitting under ‘salman rushdie’;)…and speaking of my favourite ghatan…well…another time…enjoyed them….

and


Samina #50:

…well…what can i say.wasn’t referring to cyberlynching on chowk…khair…

rgds and lve,

t

temporal,

Very very funny...

Suheir Hammad`s poem was written in English; I haven`t read any of her work that uses Arabic-and I wouldn`t understand it if it did...she`s considered a young poet and quite lovely, I might add

Cyberlynching of poets on Chowk? Of course it happens. HN`s poem doesn`t dare breathe a single moment/word that could be perceived as ``sexy`` and therefore godless/without meaning/western/``inglisyphillitic`` (can you imagine the mindset that coins that word?). Possibly, HN is Indian and is left alone. Farzana is right-I`ve seen some appalling responses to some of the poems posed in the past year-mainly a psychological case study gold mine of dismissal when a writer writes ``tongue`` or whatever...on the other hand, religious poetry on Chowk seems to be able to posted without being jeered at by the poetic minded folk...what does that tell you?

Another boring Friday afternoon.... someone sent an e-mail titled The Indian.... posting it here with some editing.... and for God`s sake enjoy it without cribbing :))

One U.S. Desi is a software guy

Two U.S. Desis is a lunch group at work

Three U.S. Desis is a bitching session about the U.S.

Four U.S. Desis is four software guys, heating tamarind rice in the office

microwave, cooked that morning, in their shared one bedroom apartment and bitching about life in the U.S.

One US Paki is a South Asian

Two US Pakis is a convenience store

Three US Pakis is a Kashmir-rights group

Four US Pakis is Chowk

One Hindu is a pseudo-secularist

Two Hindus is the minority population of Pakistan

Three Hindus is a “Pakistan hai hai” cheerleading squad

Four Hindus is a caste system

One Delhiite is a Delhiite too many

Two Delhiites is a road accident

Three Delhiites is a political lobby

Four Delhiites is the decibel level of a Concorde taking off

One Kashmiri is a carpet salesman

Two Kashmiris is a carpet factory

Three Kashmiris is a freedom-fighting organisation

Four Kashmiris is a shoot-at-sight order

One Bong is a poet

Two Bongs is a difference of opinion

Three Bongs is a Satyajit Ray fan club

Four Bongs is a flash strike

One Tam-Brahm is a priest at the Vardarajaperumal temple

Two Tam-Brahms is a maths tuition class

Three Tam-Brahms is a queue outside the U.S consulate at 4 a.m.

Four Tam-Brahms is a Thyagaraja music festival in Santa Clara

One Sardar is a Lucky

Two Sardars is an impromptu bhangra jig

Three Sardars is an Akali Dal faction

Four Sardars is an army regiment

One Bihari is a jailbird

Two Biharis is a booth-capturing squad

Three Biharis is a caste killing

Four Biharis is the entire literate population of Patna

One Mallu is a coconut stall

Two Mallus is a boat race

Three Mallus is a Gulf job racket

Four Mallus is an oil slick

One UP bhaiyya is a milkman

Two UP bhaiyyas is a MTNL lineman team

Three UP bhaiyyas is a fist-fight in the UP assembly

Four UP bhaiyyas is a mosque-destruction squad

One Gujju is a share-broker in a Bombay train

Two Gujjus is a rummy game in a Bombay train

Three Gujjus is a Rs. 10-crore sprocket manufacturing business

Four Gujjus is an all-night dandia-raas session

And my (original) favourite.... (slightly contextual)

One Ghaati is a Shakha Pramukh

Two Ghaatis is a PuLa Deshpande fanclub

Three Ghaatis is a Ganeshotsav Mandal

Four Ghaatis is 4/11th of the Indian cricket team

Cheers!<

DRUMZ,

This ``elitist`` school of poetry is screw1ng my self-esteem. Chowk doesn`t seem interested in any of my prolific output, for better or for verse (err...maybe if I stopped using puns like that I have a better chance?) What`s wrong with simple Inglees I say!

anNy

..... yaar London mein cybercafe nahin hai kya? Is ummah ke chakkar mein naa girnaa. Some Palestinian boy may like you and take you off on his camel to be his third wife. Then what of your admirers here? :((

H

how the travelogues coming along? Frankly given a choice, between t`s stuff and yours, I prefer yours. Yeah yeah that`s a compliment :)))

Cheers,

N.

DRUMZ #45, ``Im also inviting zafar cuz he`s wierd and hobby who`s wierder. ``

WEIRD, for God`s sakes get the spelling right or don`t say it

re: MastRam # 36, temporal # 41

``Vivek`` is a fascinating word. It is related to such variety of words as Veda, Vidya, Vision, Vista, and Wisdom.

As MastRam pointed out, it refers to human ability to ``see,`` to understand,`` ``to discern beneath the surface.``

In philosophical terms, human beings are encouraged to deploy chetana (mindfulness, being alive and alert) and vivek in order to penetrate the patina of every-day ignornace that keeps us from seeing through the surface of things. This ignorance is maya that arises from our samskara (time, history, totality of experiences) and guna (peculiar traits, characteristics, abilities).

Alright..nuff said!

The takeaway for today is that vivek is among the only tools we have for proactively and independently knowing the world.

P.S. Reading the family tete-e-tete has been such a pleasure. Hope my family turns out along similar lines :)

Anny: You`re just in time for somebody`s funeral/cremation/carcass being eatin by vultures

etc... Guess who had a 3 page debate with me about poetry (somethin i know NUFFIN about, LOL!!). Damn, the kid is just BAD.

And its truly sad (read: VERY funny) to see em get turned down by everyone. I suggest u coconuts reconsider, for the legend himself shall be crashin dem doors. And with DRUMZ follows some sick azz beats (good music) and the best ganja on the planet.

Im also inviting zafar cuz he`s wierd and hobby who`s wierder.

And who can forget the BEST dad in the whole wide world, HAMIDM! (If u were younger and medical science was older, id ask u to have my child.

re t #34:

Agree with your elitist description. Bambino is all yours for now. As for the summer, the significant other has more exotic locales in mind and you know there is conceivable comeback after those dreadful words ``But its on sale``.......

later

-sac

hallo everyone! pls tell me ure missing me as much as i am yall :-P

t!!!!

london is FREEZING...and theyre keeping us so busy we dont have time to shower much less shop..details latez, last night we had the palestinian students who have come from 7 diff routes from their country, have an unofficial meeting in the hotel we are all at...20 nationalities, all ages- it was mindlowing...went on for 6 hours..lotsa ppl screaming, lots crying, some even jeering..this whole thing is getting real intense..will call tonight inshaAllah

MastRam #36:

[…speaking of words…am forever searching for a word that would enhance the postive attributes of ‘discrimination’….er…discernment?]…and […viveka [vivek]: wisdom; discrimination between the Real and the unreal; disciminative inquiry…]


…vivek(a) sounds nice…do not know sanskrit…was really interested in an english equivalent…but thanks anyway…

rgds,

t

MastRam #36:

[…speaking of words…am forever searching for a word that would enhance the postive attributes of ‘discrimination’….er…discernment?]…and […viveka [vivek]: wisdom; discrimination between the Real and the unreal; disciminative inquiry…]
…vivek(a) sounds nice…do not know sanskrit…was really interested in an english equivalent…but thanks anyway…

rgds,

t

Drumz,

re: chilling instructions

Uh, dude, my comments had nothing to do with your tete a tete...

regards

Saminashah #35:

…suheir hammad was very enjoyable…thought i commented on it…incidentally was this an original in english or a translation?…and how come you did not comment on cyberlynching?

[… t, I can never tell when you are joking or not...]

…really?…(blinking eyelids rapidly…hairat say!)…and i thought i could be a riot…ask anNY when she returns from her sojourn…and i also have me better half’s permission to openly admit here that i do have a sense of humour…of sorts…and she has even witnessed me giggling, smirking, smiling and sometimes outright laughing in the middle of ….khair ..janay dijiaye;)…and worry not about bambino…have him caught like a deer in full beams;)…khair…here is a submission written as a post way back…even submitted it to chowk once…but the editor misplaced it…and are you driving here with scout in the summer?

love,

t



PRIMER ON MISS HOOR () 2000
__________________________________________

Samina: ``I can never tell when you are joking or not...``

Don`t worry, all of this is just JOKEZ. There`s mad flaws in my posts, this is just some friendly rivalry thingy we do all the time. Chill.

Temporal: Looks like uve found the door marked ``exit.`` Congrats, and under the guise of politeness- good work! I think Ive said the following line 2 billion times on this site: ``SEPARATE MESSAGE FROM MESSENGER.`` I am showing u one side for a reason. People should pay attention to what they say and why they say it!!

I am not being polite? Who defines politeness? What did I say that was impolite? The reason I came at u from this tip is cuz its explicitely ARROGANT. Kinda like how you`re arrogant yaself but can`t see it cuz u viel it (How much of what u said to me applies to U)? How u assume that me coming from an arrogant tip makes me arrogant is beyond me. I guess if I said some humble stuff that would make me humble??? There is nothing wrong with channeled INTENSITY. I was taught that a lesson learnt the hard way, is remembered longer and changes u more. This would be appearent if one would stop and think outside the box. Things are not simply ``good or bad`` or ``polite or impolite`` cuz they come from or defy certain societal customs yall have ASSIMILATED to. Is the mirror ugly?

Also, when u come at me, the least I expect is some respect (there I go being arrogant). Im speakin one on one, man to man, not to every damn person on earth who may be reading. I dont style my posts for them, only for the person im addressing. This is not an arena. This is not a joke (u may wanna ask urself why im addressing u HERE).

``…I made an effort to describe what is poetry and where the poet comes from…dividing poetry in TWO or more parts is at best an arbitrary attempt that should come later…``

Well why stop there, why not explain how the brain works and how words are formed and the etemology of everything im typing and why the typewriter has letters placed in odd places and everything else which has nothing to do with the current topic. Overstand? Of course not, u now have a bruised ego. This means that u will either attack what is written - which will get u in more trouble, or will leave the thread and ignore me. Id pick the latter.

re temporal #34

[…speaking of words…am forever searching for a word that would enhance the postive attributes of ‘discrimination’….er…discernment?]

There is a word in hindi/sanskrit for that. Vivek.

You probably know what it means. An online sanskrit glossary translates it as

viveka [vivek]: wisdom; discrimination between the Real and the unreal; disciminative inquiry

HN, Drumz, t,

Uh....interesting thread. And no one has commented on Palestinian American poet Suheir Hammad...why is that?

I fall somewhere in the middle. Yes, I enjoy a good piece of work that requires a great deal of work and prior initiation, providing there is a point to access provided, or not (the point of the poem being that it is inpenetrable), and yes, most poems that have moved me contain no five syllable words or high flown theoretical frameworks....I am thinking of the lyricism of Garcia Lorca, or Neruda-the sound of the words in the ear, the sound of the meaning in the heart, the sound of the ideas in the mind-I think those are the holy trinity of a good poem (and hopefully no-one will be offended by that metaphor)

Drumz,

Am reading Political Fictions by Joan Didion; its really fascinating. She describes politics as a narrative written by the insiders/players of Washington. I can`t look at the news the same, since.

t,

I can never tell when you are joking or not...

regards

DRUMZ # 31:

…consider this a last warning: there will be no future reply if you do not clean up the language…this is my only precondition!

…eat some humble pie and stop acting as if you are nature’s gift to humanity…get off your high imaginary horse and I will consider lowering myself from my perch…:)

…the digressions were MY digressions…think I also mentioned somewhere the reader’s indulgence…played with the idea to develop them later into an essay perhaps…in an open and net-accessible forum do not confuse these ‘replies’ with ‘personal’ letters…these are read by scores of readers and some may learn from them or have views on the subject and will share…in which case perhaps we all stand to learn more…

[``…the finished work assumes a life of its own…time is the most relevant critic of art…`` …Stick to the basics. Read whats written, dont read INTO it. I divided poetry into 2 sections. I used generalizations...]

…is this is a free exchange of ideas or you want the world to play-act with you according to the rules you establish or change mid-game?…who is on the high horse here?…

…I made an effort to describe what is poetry and where the poet comes from…dividing poetry in TWO or more parts is at best an arbitrary attempt that should come later…

…get a dose of politeness…about the only thing you`ll lose being polite is a seat on a crowded busJ…



sac #32:

…hmmm…you did say ’closet’?…..hmmmm;)


…ok…some digression...what else on ‘choice’…


…there was this man … a farm hand…all day long he made choices!…would pick up tomatoes form a huge basket in front of him and drop them into other baskets beside him…ripe ones in one and green in the other…and kept muttering under his breadth..’decisions…decisions..all day long I have to make decisions!’…

…decisions…choices…selections…options..discretion…(now there is another word..will come to it later)

…we make choices all life long…NOW…does that make one elitist?…in a certain sense yes…is that good or bad?…good I think…

…in real life…in cyberworld…don’t we make our own choices?…whom to associate with?…whom to respond to?…the absolute query will be then…when does this choice leads one to become an elitist?…

…speaking of words…am forever searching for a word that would enhance the postive attributes of ‘discrimination’….er…discernment?…any thoughts?
…your postscript was somewhat ambivalent…if it was intentional…my compliments!…thinking of heading this way in the summer?…

rgds,

t

Sac: Most of my sh1t deals with knowledge of Self. Understanding WHY one does something is more importantthen what he does. It means he can`t fill that void by himself. Control is the best answer.

The discussion reminds me of an anecdote narrated by my English high school teacher who in England in the 1940s found himself boarding with an old landlady and her 12 year old niece. After a couple of days the niece remarked solemnly ``You speak books!!!``.

I`ll add a couple of books to the list in case anyone is interested in exploring the issue of why we use certain words and how it is related to the way our brains are conditioned.

1)Words and rules: The ingredients of Language

2)The language Instinct: How the mind creates Language

Both by Steven Pinker arguably the most brilliant cognitive scientist of our times.

There is no harm in being elitist. Most men(and women) of any substance are either closet elitists or are extremely boring.

later

-sac

t: Your language over the years has become somewhat ornate. Hope your physical self is keeping pace :)

Temporal: This is why u were called an elitest. U say the first thing which comes to mind. The SIMPLEST of things. That is indicative of ur mindset. You MUST believe that ur talking with a damn fool cuz ur first 15 paragraphs were DIGRESSIONS, and u actually labelled them digressions!! You speak on things almost everyone knows - and in a condescending manner like ur speaking to a 6 year old. Come off ur camel. Stop imagining an audience iz around u and get to the point!!

``…the finished work assumes a life of its own…time is the most relevant critic of art…``

WTF? WHO CARES? What`s the relevance? Why Say it? Who are u tryna impress? Stick to the basics. Read whats written, dont read INTO it. I divided poetry into 2 sections. I used generalizations... I know inner truth can be found from basic words (WHO DUZZENT???) thats not the point (it doesnt counter the general idea being raised-its an exception to the rule and also, it appeals to the reader`s level of consciousness, not the POET`S. Im only talking about the poet`s).

I profusely apologise for misinterpreting your rant on ``imbeciles.`` I assumed that it had something to do with what we were discussing. OOOOPS, it was just temporal showering his wisdom upon us. Thanks again, I did not know u cant relearn something twice. Youre DEEPer then a sikh village.

Lastly, im not saying ordinary poets should stop writing. That would be like saying anything which doesnt guide u to universal truth is irrelevant. That is wrong - (yin/yan). Im just comparing the two types of poetry (this should not be worthy of a discussion).

HN: Please help him, i feel bad doing this to everyone`s hero. I think u 2 may be reading INTO whats written. Im not saying people shouldnt write complicated bullsh1t. We need the yin and yan. Im just giving my views on WHY people write like that. WHY they try to sound deep. And Im tiping my cap to the selfless poets as well. There could be many reasons WHY people use the words they do. My generic opinion is that they are tryina show off (in this particular case). Socialization is also a factor.

Drumz 26:


And ferz, samina, harish, bina, shandy, rehan, zehra and others of the lost tribe …views/abuse welcome;)…some of the details may appear boring or irrelevant to you now…but have included them because I may work on them in an essay later:)


DIGRESSIONS ON POETRY


…what is poetry…a verbal snapshot of a moment or feeling…this needs elaboration…

…using an automatic, disposable, manual, cheap, semi-professional or professional camera with or without the use of filters, shades, lights and using a fast or slow film any photographer can capture an object or expression, portrait or landscape on that film…

…assuming that the results turn out fine…that snapshot would show an object, or landscape or a portraiture as captured by that photographer at that moment in time…essentially an unalterable fait-accompli of that photographer’s perception, imagination, intuition and feeling…to be conveyed to us thus…

…with appropriate substitutions we can say the same of an artist…using different mediums an artist conveys his intuitive imagination and feelings about the subject matter to us in the form of a canvas or sculpture…

…once the creative process is completed in a photograph, painting or sculpture the creative artist moves on and work of the reader or viewer starts…

…if the reader or viewer is moved by the piece and experiences ‘nearly’ the same or even ‘similar’ feelings as that felt by the original creative person than the conveyance and transference is achieved…but it seldom happens this way…

…it is difficult to quantify feelings…and I am discussing this in terms of an individual’s response to a creative effort…mainly perhaps each individual reacts differently…but we are moved…that cannot be denied…be it a mysterious smile painted or a looming storm over the horizon or battlefield heroics or a still life or a sunset or a crowded bazaar scene…we are moved…and therein perhaps lies the success of the creator…he has succeeded a transference of some of his original magic…

…now back to poetry…a verbal snapshot of a moment or feeling…

…a poet captures his intuitive feelings in words…he may utilize any of the existing forms available…naz’m, ghazal, mathnavi, musaddas, qaseeda, marcia, eulogy, sonnet, ballad, haiku, blank verse, free verse…and having captured his thoughts in words he may sit on it for ever, sell it, send it to a publication or share with his audience…

…(we will leave why or how the creative force strikes for another time…:)…

…if…the poet has shared his work…and even if he hasn’t but is long dead and his work surfaces later…the written word enters the public domain…and once there almost anyone can and do express their views on the written work…

…if their poetry has ‘magic’…and this is very difficult to describe…but let me give you my interpretation of ‘magic’…their intuition, inspirational outburst, word usage and ideas have a certain universalism…that effusive enduring appeal…the original magic has found resonance with the present reader…this magic transcends space AND time…(digression: sir muhammad iqbal...see the article on him by zafar anjum elsewhere…wrote ‘saaray jahaaN say achcha hindustaaN humara’…it is sung by school kids in India with emotion and fervour but it is ignored by kids and teachers in Pakistan…to give you a perspective, drumz…it would be as if an American or Mexican poet had penned ‘O Canada..’…same easily understood words that evoke diametrically different emotions!…)

…the finished work assumes a life of its own…

…time is the most relevant critic of art…

…when a writer creates … the initial catalyst is NOT a betterment of society, human beings or any other noble ideals…he just wants to a capture a passing magical feeling or thought for eternity…if that is possible…this is simplified as art for arts sake!…

…then there are writers with agenda (read conscience, political or social motivation)…they want to create art WITH a message…(read social or political awareness)…

…around the second quarter of last century in Urdu literature a movement was born…Taraqqi Pasand Tehreek…(progressive writers movement)…in a nut-shell they wanted art/literature to become subservient …to serve a purpose…what is the use of pen if not used to defend the poor and down-trodden..they asked…why write at all if we cannot ameliorate the conditions of the poor…this new movement acted as a catalyst…and naturally had its proponents and opponents…the latter dusted off the old argument of art for arts sake!…

…both the arguments had some merit…

see… ‘extremism’ is dangerous even in literature!...and consequently ‘moderation’ should rule..yeah!…

…I agreed and said the same thing in different words…’ They all wrote deep, meaningful works which needed introspection to understand..’ we got to keep all internal windows open to let ‘deeper’ meanings in…and when we do that sometimes even the simplest words assume significant meanings…the diamond comment was in response to ‘recognise a jewel..’..

..yes…we must find the truth everywhere…but you missed the point of the imbeciles ….once you have observed and learned from someone’s mistake (not crossing the road when the traffic is flowing)…you have learned and filed away that lesson…you cannot re-learn the same lesson from another careless jay walker…time to move on to other ‘truths’..that was my impatience with imbeciles bit…

…and we are all marked bulls in the arena of life……or pebbles on the shore…or pawns in the eternal chess game…or…


…and samina…this is not an argument…call this a learning experience!…


…and HN…universal truths…delisting old brahminical values…changed times…agreed with your observations…minor disagreement with personal word-usage…most people do speak and write differently…personally when I write the usage depends on who is being addressed…sort of like in a chess game one’s level rises or sinks unconsciously to the level of the opponent…but have the feeling you are deliberately sitting on the fence…understand that…but would appreciate your and other folks views on the ‘magic’ and ‘universalism’ in them old bards that transcends time and space…

lve,

t

t, DRMZ, saminashah,

T...i was hoping you`ll take over the thread and continue to post in the grand tradition of parody that I had attempted to ignite with my reaction to you.

Instead you fell into your regular habit of evoking your general goodwill on chowk...and fulminated in mock-paraoxysms about the damage done to your reputation etc. Plus you used personal details to ride into battle which I thought was not too smart.

That said a lot of what DRUMZ says makes for a feeling that he is a good reader of people.

But, a lot of what you say makes the case for poetry too. Drumz is making out a case, as many here do, for a simplification of all art till everybody is given a fair chance to access it.

He is also saying that too many ``poets`` are out there to hook readers to see the world as they see it. I should imagine the days of universal truths are over. Hafiz and Rumi etc...were of a generation and time when there was great value to the kind of philosophic wisdom they had to convey. That they wrote in simple accessible form makes them popular. In that sense they were the one`s who ``de-elitised`` some of the brahmanical truths available only the mighties and high brows.

That said, there are hardly anymore Aesop`s fables to write. The current world is not so simple. There are too many truths. And maybe there is a growing feeling that ``to each his own`` as a principle had a better chance of reaching any TRUTH.

Old values too have been questioned and found inadequate. We all knew of fear and the terror of the state...in some vague or specific form. Yet Kafka and Orwell did crystalise that fear in a far more real manner through their imaginations.

As the use of difficult words for simple one`s available. It can be a matter of a favoured style, it can be merely the seeking of precision. In DRUMZ` reading; t`s exaggerated exhibition of vocabulary is a delibearate attempt to obfuscate, and above all an elitist hangover.

I do not know which of the motives attributed are true or false, or, as t would argue with Khayyamish obsession with paradox...they are both true and false.

But, t`s language is less ``modern`` in the sense it is not often tht people speak like that. I do not know, but father too had a language which sounded more printed than spoken. And it can be a major handicap when the language is not suited the subject. Is that what DRUMZ is hinting at?

And then, there is the quiet appeal of a racy detective fiction written in Doyle`s language.

So there...again the medium and the message...the form and the content...the firmest marriage is what makes the best pieces of art...i guess.

Samina: I think the more general idea being raised is ``WHY do people use the words they do?``

I suggest everyone read ``Politics of the English Language`` by George Orwel. Dude makes several astute observations, leaving the reader with a few rules to consider. Among them is to refrain from using ``complicated, larger, elitist`` words when simpler ones will do. U must wonder WHY it is that a man writes ``trite and the imbecilic musings...`` Could he have said that in a shorter, simpler and more concise manner? If so, whom is he trying to impress and who is being impressed?

It is for this reason that I go outta my way on this site to sound like a lower class child. This reveals the personal biases and hypocrisies possed by many on chowk. They pay more attention to the messenger then the message. Notice people like Sameer et all who keep ignoring drumz like they`re geniuses. Chowkies are socialized to consider certain lignuistic styles as being high and proper and others as being spoken by the wretched of the earth. The style of the writer influences the chowk reader to a great extent, nevermind what the hell is actually being conveyed.

Such is the behavior of people who just do, and rarely stop to consider WHY they use the words they do.

Drumz, Temporal,

Just adding my own quick observation: what you two are debating seems to be a very old and relevant question of the role of art in society. Should art be codified and intellectualized so that the layperson finds it inaccessible or is good art accessible to all, esp. significant when considering the orality and community device that poetry has played historically-i.e Irish bards, Kabir, Mirabai? Big debate in poetry circles as well..

25: I believe u missed the point. I went outta my way to emphasize the fact that I was speaking on generalities.

The MAIN point existed within the sphere of poetry, it emphasized two different types of poems. One guides u to truth (rumi, Gibran), the other guides u to seeing the poets vision (u). An analogy would be showing someone the face of God vs showing someone post 11.

``for i do not tolerate the trite and the imbecilic musings``

That means u havent learned how to find truth everywhere. It also means ur wishy washy (or talking loud but aint saying nuthin). The diamond thing made zero sense BTW.

Elitest (good work with the shoe polish thing but please skip the bull-like we`re in an arena and I have a red cloth and u have a nosering). It is elitest in that it is done generally by so called intellectuals in an effort to make the listener percieve the poet as being deep. Compare that to the selfless poetry of rumi who gets the listener to improve on his current state.

That ultimately it is the listener who makes a work ``great`` (or meaningful or something worthy of adopting and learning from) is obvious. The POINT was that some works AIM to cause a change in the reader, while some dont... I will stop now cuz were arguing on something not worth arguing over.

PS: Why do i get the feeling that u clap after reading ur own posts?

DRUMZ #24:

…elitist…there is that word…NO…I do not think I am an elitist…but wait…perhaps i am…for i do not tolerate the trite and the imbecilic musings…does that make me an elitist?…am i not within my rights to be selective?

…I am not a diamond person…so what do I know of jewels;)…but wait…yes there are diamonds and jewels…some cut and some uncut…some raw and some polished on this site…so what is the point?

[…``My only gripe with poetry is that its soooo elitest….]

--there is that word again!…elitist…poetry?…well I see how it could be construed as elitist because it does not have ‘mass’ appeal…hmmmm…but then so is shoe polishing…other than when it is done professionally we do not see shoe-shining clubs or fraternities…but am sure there are folks out there who love shining shoes…what am saying is appreciating and enjoying a given chore or activity is usually restricted to a few folks… and it is wrong to fault EVERYONE for not following a certain chore or activity…

…past week there was a programme on cbc radio about this Alberta or Calgary poet who is translating and popularizing that Persian bard Hafiz to English audiences in north america…Gibran has been a perennial favourite of certain readers in the west…

…poetry appeals to the reader’s heart AND intellect…though am not sure if it does so simultaneously or EVEN ought to do so simultaneously…though must admit to the strong possibility of a cross-over…

…the lovers swaying under full moon could be listening to what others may describe as mumbo-jumbo…and yet the same folks under a different mood and time frame may be knocked off by gibran or rumi or hafiz or ghalib…

…the point is it is all within…it is WE…we open portals within our selves…and make ourselves receptive to shades and meanings of words, lyrics, thoughts to hit us the way they do…I do not know how else to describe how some words hit me one day…or occasion and not so effectively felt on another…

[…``MOST (again MOST) poets don`t say things that are too meaningful. Their skill lies in the ability to give an ordinary thing deep meaning - through eloquence and articulation. The people I mentioned take the deep meaning out of the words and put it in you. They cause the words to guide you to a deep and meaningful place. In essense, they are guiding you to your soul…]

--yes…agreed…take this from another pov…MOST people talk…converse…communicate daily…how much of that communication is ‘deeply’ meaningful?….

…poetry is no different than everyday writing…their range is from the trite and ordinary to eclectic and soul stirring…but the point I shall emphasize is the reception one’s inner self gives to those words…which inner portals are left open by us to receive those messages …remember chancey the gardener in being there?…his words of wisdom were ordinary perceptions and words mostly dealing with weather and garden…given an altogether different meaning by his listeners and benefactors…

…this could be the ‘coincidence’ factor also…

[….``Poets simply masquerade a regular thing in verse. For some odd reason they take pride in being VAGUE AND USING WORDS UNAVAILABLE TO THE COMMON PERSON!!!!!!….]

--not necessarily…though it does happen…

…to properly ascertain we got to see who is saying it…is it a sophomore poet out to impress his date..or a serious poet who mulls over every single comma and word … take the three poems on this board…harish’s …suheil hammad’s and the cyberlynching one… and tell me about the word usage…which words are vague and not available to the common person?…actually I would say a common poetry reading person!…

…to me one has to be in a certain receptive mood to ‘receive’ the poem…admittedly these are three different poems and for me they do not appear to use archaic or difficult words…

…hope this helps…

love,

t

#11. I dono why im bothering replying to someone who`s an elitest but whatever. Very few on here (like prem) will recognize a jewel even if its covered in mud. Dude can see through ``derogatory`` words unlike u European robots who never think and say the first thing which comes to mind.

This is from one of my old posts. Read carefully this time (and Im sure u wont understand it cuz its not coming from one of your prized intellectual chowkies). The IGNORant will IGNORe.

``My only gripe with poetry is that its soooo elitest. I mean there`s people who could rock your mind out there (khalil Gibran, Muhammed, Krsna...) They all wrote deep, meaningful works which needed introspection to understand....

However, their works were different from that of most poets (other then maybe dylan thomas).

``MOST (again MOST) poets don`t say things that are too meaningful. Their skill lies in the ability to give an ordinary thing deep meaning - through eloquence and articulation. The people I mentioned take the deep meaning out of the words and put it in you. They cause the words to guide you to a deep and meaningful place. In essense, they are guiding you to your soul.

``Poets simply masquerade a regular thing in verse. For some odd reason they take pride in being VAGUE AND USING WORDS UNAVAILABLE TO THE COMMON PERSON!!!!!! Why mask emotion and send our imaginations to odd places. This may give some of us the idea that we are being `deep` when we aint. We`re simply imagining things... Much like one would do if he was high...`` (BANG)

t-bhai #22,

haikus are good, short and simple

why can`t y`all write more haikus dammit... (Southern accent)

scout #21:

...that`s it!...:)

..i know just the perfect special occassion gift for you...How to Appreciate Poetry and its companion volume Guide to Desi Adventures in Poetics (under revision now;))...

lve,

t

t-bhai #11,

???

?? ??

?

?

?

??

??



??

[…This is a overt and covert attempt to communalise this board. t, the poet , has deliberately, pre-medatatively and with all intention of hurting Hindu sentiments that such a line was slipped into an otherwise unthought out spur-of-the keyboard ``alleged`` poem…

Chowk editors....please remove such blatantly hate fuelling propaganda from this board. I register my protest…] from HN #19.


(..while I reserve my right to wince and reel from ‘unthought’, ‘spur-of-the-keyboard’ and ‘alleged’ later in the pruiavcy of my soul…)

__________________________________________


…to the erstwhile chowk editors


IN MY HUMBLE DEFENCE


…let me recall from another board my very recent and public disclaimer which as I alluded to there should be deemed to be hug all subsequent and prior posts of the defendant…


(…PUBLIC DISCLAIMER…temp’s views are highly arbitrary and selective and by no means covers all the posters on the interactive site known as chowk.com…and for any errors or omissions he will in now way, shape or form be liable either here OR in the hereafter…hey I like that…in fact here is another public service announcement! let it hereby be known to all and sundry that this NOTICE shall apply to all my posts in future!)

…HN…take note…there!…beat your haughty accusations by bare minutes!

…and as for mauling my well thought out and meditative piece by fouling up the (already) well digested excrement…humph!…would this pseudo bombay bard (he lives in the frozen tundra charitably called NEW mumbai) be satisfied by literal substitution...urgh!….`bull-shid` sounds so pedantic!...how about `bull ordure`?...or if we want it dated...`cow coprolite`?...but i suspect he will still not be pleased...some people!...khair...

[how true, but why
cow dung clichés
reign supreme
almost always?]

…also…

I invoke all past and present chowkies as my witnesses…sub-poenas are being served as we type/read;)…they will be called to testify to my well bred criticisms for all things historiographical…and…er… graphical…so how can I have fired (oh!..there is another burning word) ...‘allegedly’ …and burying ‘propaganda’ into my hurriedly thought spur-of-the-keyboard fulminations?…

…as a former karachite I am understandably used to not receiving justice…but…at least in the diaspora I can have my say!…and perhaps receive sympathetic hearing…though quick and just retribution would be welcome too:)…


love,

t

Shandana,

Thank you. Yes, will try to keep posting poems...whenever Dutch courage that disregards all caution resurfaces...though that is a spasmodic activity...:)

t,

People like temporal misuse their avuncular influence over a up-and-coming generation of young Pakistanis through the powerful and intoxicating use of subtle linguistic skills to bury propaganda in allegedly profounf or funny poems. I protest. These are the kind who discourage Indo-Pak peace processes and meeting of young minds by infiltrating the cyber social spaces where young minds from both countries interact and develop mutual admiration and affection, to spread their poison.

Why else would you use these lines specifically...

``cow dung clichés``

This is a overt and covert attempt to communalise this board. t, the poet , has deliberately, pre-medatatively and with all intention of hurting Hindu sentiments that such a line was slipped into an otherwise unthought out spur-of-the keyboard ``alleged`` poem.

Chowk editors....please remove such blatantly hate fuelling propaganda from this board. I register my protest.

I warn you: if you do not beard this bard...I will have to....:)

saminashah,

``These explanations are very helpful; only I`d point out that the necessity of them supports the idea of possibly revising in order to let your lay audience in on this?``

Samina, what you say here is correct. But they are correct for you. There may be some readers who like it elaborated, or made not so in your face. Varying the degree of complexity to let in as many readers into a poem often leads to an unacceptable level of compromise. That is my stand. It can easily be considered arrogance, or plain bull headedness. But, if you poll some poets on that, maybe you`ll get a better response.

I once posted at an American poetry workshop. The comments were often remarkably perceptive. There was often this pressure to explain. I would and that`ll excite their curiosity more, and then there would be another barrage of questions.

While this is a natural and welcome process of exchange, it leaves the writer of the poem pealing away all the layers of meaning to make the readers finally gasp...Wow...or plain spit out...what non-sense.

I realised then that multiculturalism often meant you explain your culture coz this is mine and mine is a given. No, there is no arrogance there, but I work hard to understand nuances of the poems of a lot of English poets. Daffodils is probably the most memorised school poem in India, and the other might even be Lochinwar...or something.

So it is my endevour to write what I consider complete and true to my feelings, intelligence, craftsmanship and my experience. The ignorance of the reader is something the reader needs to tackle. Unless poems intrigue or force them to find references... they are probably weak poems anyways. Whatever cult status a book/poem receives in one language it often falls flat in the other. But true lovers and seekers of art qualify themselves. In one of my earlier poems Bombay: A Paranoiac critical landscape...there were a barrage of responses saying it was a verbal calisthenics poem. But, t said something that warmed the cockles of my heart. He said he had to call up several persons to get all the references. That was a success...even if the avuncular bard retracts that now...and says...I just bluffed.

I personally feel that academic discourse on poetry critiquing often teaches people to ask intelligent question to everyline. That is fine while one is still grappling to understand and crack poetry of such vast variety as exists out there. But, in the end a sensibility or a genuine voice will have to be the one that writes something more people will like than one that writes 18 unquestionable lines.

I am here merely sharing my thoughts in a hurry on what you have said. I have often felt that I should not be made to defend my poem or my piece. What I have written is there. If I tailor it according to one taste, there will be another equally demanding and equally sensitive and intelligent reader, mind you, taking offence at the new version.

The reason I say all these is because I felt you might have been involved in projects where poetry had to be critiqued in an academic fashion. I wanted your insights readings based on your experiences.

I often find some people find something overly cryptic...others find it too good...and the third asks me the question that dumbs me....so what is the point?

That is a question to which my answer is...that is the point. I enjoy and write for myself. If it gives somebody else pleasure that is great. If somebody is unmoved...that vote doesn`t count. Unless of course...the person`s comments were thought provoking on the areas of art and craft.

I have rambled. I do not intend to be arrogant or rude anywhere...I would love to hear from you thoughts on my thoughts....

Thank you again. I promise to put in my twobit on your poems when I see them. Your grasp of the subject is commendable.

Thank you, again.

Farzana,

That is very flattering...thank you.

I agree entirely with you Farzana. I had said earlier I hate explication. That already means the piece is a failure. But Samina I know is a very careful and industrious critic, and her sedulous critical appreciation demanded that I bend my rule...please to forgive.

I am also not too comfortable with the use of proper nouns (``a tent in New Delhi``), for aren`t these things not about places but located in the mind? But then it could be because I am aware of the background...

Here exactly is the dichotomy. Somebody who knows the background...is disappointed with needless explanation...while somebody who does not feel it is severely underexplained and deliberately vague...I have addressed some of these issues in my response to saminashah...maybe you have something to add to that...

``PS: I thought you were more chivalrous and would be in the forefront of a poetry week. You have not experienced the real nastiness of cyberlynching. See all you have got is a ``?`` :)``

haha...Farzana...your innosense is worth stone...you have already assumed chivalry needs to be extended to chowk and chowkies. I will now be exposed as the gender insensitive MCP...:)

Ya...I understand...i have agorophobhia (?)...avoid the crowds on Chowk and keep to the bylanes...

But mind you...that one question shut me up...:)

Thank you all...have been part meditative and part flippant...please to understand...cowering in fright of cyberlynching...

Harish

Palestinian-American poet Suheir Hammad:

Good Word

begged mohammad for his help

he let me know he don’t deal with

no whores told him i was a virgin

but you got the heart of a whore, he said

begged solomon to put in a good word with fate

he said i’d have to marry him

replied that i was saving myself for another prophet

too bad he don’t deal with no virgins

on my knees i pleaded to jesus

sorry i only deal with virgins or whores

well was born a virgin and plan to be a whore i promised

already got my two marys he called over his shoulder

buddha wasn’t down with my troubles

he couldn’t understand my intimacy problems

osiris couldn’t hang with me

cause my temple didn’t hang right

jehovah wasn’t even trying to hear me

i was too far back on line

jah told me to smoke my trials away

but my lungs were too small for his divine high

my knees were bloody

from kneeling forever

pages of all the holy books stained my hands red

my eyes burned from the incense in all those temples

blood of all the holy wars stained my hands red

my eyes burned from the incense in all those temples

blood of all the holy wars stained my hands red

the prayer rugs were frayed and soiled

prayer beads were loose on the floor

slipping me up

no communion baptism nile libation

ain’t no ritual around to cleanse me

of these demands

the prophets gotta pay the rent

they gotta get off too

the messengers gotta do what they gotta do

they gotta pimp and scheme just like we do

then they come to me

asking for a good word

The response I sent earlier seems to have been misplaced, so I am typing from memory....

Harish:

I envy you your ability to be razor-sharp and spar with a needle rather than a sword. But I made the error of reading your explanation. Here I was admiring a flower, and I got a botany lesson instead.

I am also not too comfortable with the use of proper nouns (``a tent in New Delhi``), for aren`t these things not about places but located in the mind? But then it could be because I am aware of the background...

PS: I thought you were more chivalrous and would be in the forefront of a poetry week. You have not experienced the real nastiness of cyberlynching. See all you have got is a ``?`` :)

Regards and , yes, thanks for your comments on my earlier board,

Farzana

Previous post I said, an egoless individual would not think that his self-immolation would cause change.

Just realized that this works the other way too, as in an individual with a big ego or self-centered would probably not self-immolate for a cause either.

Note to self: Logic don`t help when assuming too much.

Very un-Buddhist like to self immolate. I don`t know the circumstances leading to this monk doing that, but it just does not fit in with what I`ve learnt about Buddhism.

Buddhism teaches one to take solace in the grand Karmic equation. So whatever China is doing, whatever is happenning, is working itself out and accounting for itself. Buddhism focuses on the individual and the individual`s Karmic debt. Also egolessness and sanctity of life are big concepts. An egoless individual would not think that his self-immolation would cause change. And one who values sanctity of life would not take their own life, which they have complete control over to promote/preach goodness while they live.

Disclaimer: No disrespect to the good Monk- I just feel he may have gotten carried away a bit. I really don`t know the complete details and my Buddhism knowledge is limited.

Harish,

Thanks for your responses.



``...is that the artist might have made it with great sincerity, maybe even reverance, but to me that innocence was finally worth stone. I am not seeing it as a reverent Buddhist visitor might.``

These explanations are very helpful; only I`d point out that the necessity of them supports the idea of possibly revising in order to let your lay audience in on this?

Also, while ``innocence worth stone`` is a lovely and original phrase, in my reading of it, I feel that 1. I could be patient and let it go, in hopes of this phrase being explicated or meditated upon in the following lines or stanzas.

2. I can accept in the way that it is mysterious or refererring to contexts I don`t have access to (which may be cultural, ie. Buddhism)or specific to the author`s imagination.

Keeping that in mind, how am I to mediate the following lines, which offer me tantalising combinations of words, but a bit more of the same confusion? -And not having space (metaphoric and literal-in the oral and written text of the poem) to allow me to register complex ideas organized in a dense, highly imagistic manner?

I support your craft and the scope of your task, but my gut feeling is, if you are presenting us with a poem of several striking images and juxtapostions, you must make the metaphors more accessible to us.

``One of the Tibet`s abiding problems have been high profile espousals by famous Hollywood Budhists of celebrity...and at the same time little hope remains of the Tibetans getting anything from the Chinese even remotely addressing their concern to keep alive their unique culture.``

Got it. How is this idea reflected in the poem?

Do you want this idea reflected in the poem?

``I could not but feel that the cause is such a potent one for some..like Richard Gere...that it keeps it in circulation through HIS glamour. And yet. all that sympathy and genuine concern is essentially a symbolic act signifying nothing.``

Okay; so this where the Barbie reference comes in. Btw, ``wooden spines`` is excellent. Are the Richard Geres Barbies? I knew you were referring to an ideal-which I agree is suspect- in the West; physical beauty, superficiality, etc., but I`m not connecting the reference in your poem to what you had written in your explanation-this is what I had meant by crypticism.

``I do not know if you see anything in these lines other than defence. But there it is. I owe you my reasons, though I hate to explain my poems to anybody. The reason is that you read well. Thank you.``

Well, you write well; your poem really demands a response in terms of its power. My own comments, based on the rigorousness of your work, are this specific because you have already developed a degree of ability and craft; hopefully my comments will be food for thought. (Or not :)) Btw, your comments towards my poems (if the good editors at Chowk publish them)are equally welcome.

re: about the poem.

...``well not that I intended, but if you are heading somewhere I would not call it my leading you there. Your reading led you to some judgement.``

Agreed. However, I`d argue that the very writing of a poem; choosing the words, rendering the images, placing the images in specific places-these actions are all artful device that whether we like it or not, explicate an clear or subtle agenda (whatever the agenda may be). I don`t think agenda`s are nec. a bad thing...

``Judgements in poems are just that much. If it works in the poem, as in gives it strength, helps it complete itself, then it can be there...because if it accomplishes all these things then it follows that it is an integral part of the poem. I have nothing against or for judgements in poems. To me there is an integral complete poem. If not, of course, it is too risky a liability. Much like a lot of that literature engage stuff. Little more than propaganda.``

I know what you`re saying. Its a fine line. My own personal poetic/writer/reader tasks has focused on political poetry and how excellent political poetry is achieved.

Be well.

Harish,

Thanks for your responses.



``...is that the artist might have made it with great sincerity, maybe even reverance, but to me that innocence was finally worth stone. I am not seeing it as a reverent Buddhist visitor might.``

These explanations are very helpful; only I`d point out that the necessity of them supports the idea of possibly revising in order to let your lay audience in on this?

Also, while ``innocence worth stone`` is a lovely and original phrase, in my reading of it, I feel that 1. I could be patient and let it go, in hopes of this phrase being explicated or meditated upon in the following lines or stanzas.

2. I can accept in the way that it is mysterious or refererring to contexts I don`t have access to (which may be cultural, ie. Buddhism)or specific to the author`s imagination.

Keeping that in mind, how am I to mediate the following lines, which offer me tantalising combinations of words, but a bit more of the same confusion? -And not having space (metaphoric and literal-in the oral and written text of the poem) to allow me to register complex ideas organized in a dense, highly imagistic manner?

I support your craft and the scope of your task, but my gut feeling is, if you are presenting us with a poem of several striking images and juxtapostions, you must make the metaphors more accessible to us.

``One of the Tibet`s abiding problems have been high profile espousals by famous Hollywood Budhists of celebrity...and at the same time little hope remains of the Tibetans getting anything from the Chinese even remotely addressing their concern to keep alive their unique culture.``

Got it. How is this idea reflected in the poem?

Do you want this idea reflected in the poem?

``I could not but feel that the cause is such a potent one for some..like Richard Gere...that it keeps it in circulation through HIS glamour. And yet. all that sympathy and genuine concern is essentially a symbolic act signifying nothing.``

Okay; so this where the Barbie reference comes in. Btw, ``wooden spines`` is excellent. Are the Richard Geres Barbies? I knew you were referring to an ideal-which I agree is suspect- in the West; physical beauty, superficiality, etc., but I`m not connecting the reference in your poem to what you had written in your explanation-this is what I had meant by crypticism.

``I do not know if you see anything in these lines other than defence. But there it is. I owe you my reasons, though I hate to explain my poems to anybody. The reason is that you read well. Thank you.``

Well, you write well; your poem really demands a response in terms of its power. My own comments, based on the rigorousness of your work, are this specific because you have already developed a degree of ability and craft; hopefully my comments will be food for thought. (Or not :)) Btw, your comments towards my poems (if the good editors at Chowk publish them)are equally welcome.

re: about the poem.

...``well not that I intended, but if you are heading somewhere I would not call it my leading you there. Your reading led you to some judgement.``

Agreed. However, I`d argue that the very writing of a poem; choosing the words, rendering the images, placing the images in specific places-these actions are all artful device that whether we like it or not, explicate an clear or subtle agenda (whatever the agenda may be). I don`t think agenda`s are nec. a bad thing...

``Judgements in poems are just that much. If it works in the poem, as in gives it strength, helps it complete itself, then it can be there...because if it accomplishes all these things then it follows that it is an integral part of the poem. I have nothing against or for judgements in poems. To me there is an integral complete poem. If not, of course, it is too risky a liability. Much like a lot of that literature engage stuff. Little more than propaganda.``

I know what you`re saying. Its a fine line. My own personal poetic/writer/reader tasks has focused on political poetry and how excellent political poetry is achieved.

Be well.

Actually I am travelling and would love to see this thread develop...so shall peep in again.

Thank you again for your thoughtful critique.

Harish

Women Chowkies,

Forgive me for using this board for this event, but I didn`t know where else to post it. Hope to see some NYC Chowkies at this event:

Its March 8th; to all the women Chowkies out there

Happy International Working Woman`s Day

Saturday, March 16 7:00 - 10:00 pm

The Brecht Forum & the Women of Resistance in Brooklyn present Roses & Bread: 7th Annual Open Poetry & Performance Event

An International Women`s Day Tribute to Arab & Muslim Women and Benefit for RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan

Featuring: Nawal El Saadawi, Suheir Hammad and others TBA

We have just received word that Egyptian psychiatrist and writer Nawal Al Saadawi will be joining us at our 7th International Women`s Day

celebration. Saadawi is best known in the West for her novels, such as ``Women at Point Zero`` and ``God Dies By the Nile``. She writes against ancient customs oppressing Arab women, including her very personal account of the pain of female circumcision. In her words: ``We are living in a class patriarchal system, based on class and male

domination. This system breeds religious fundamentalism, paradoxes,injustices, and violence.``

Suheir Hammad is a Palestinian-American poet and activist, author of ``Born Palestinian, Born Black`` whose incendiary and lyrical verse ranges topics of police brutality, the

prison industrial complex, political prisoners, imperialism and the struggle for a free Palestine.

Join us for an evening of electric and intergenerational poetry,prose,politics and music as we celebrate International Women`s Day and

honor the inspirational and revolutionary work of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan.

CYBERLYNCHING CLICHES:
LOVE SONG OF ASHES & DUST


slam bang
thank you…
big bang

obvious, not so
or
sublime, oblivious

corporal fire
incorporeal fury

navel-age
circumambulating
still cube
or still warm cinders

rituals galore

fire to …
clay to …

how true, but why
cow dung clichés
reign supreme
almost always?


HN, saima, ferz:

(hope this does not merit more than one question mark from scout!…also hope this proves not too enigmatic…enjoyed writing…hope you have fun deciphering too:))

i like the imagery, powerful and interesting. keep posting.

shandana

Only fools worship buddhas and idols. Inshallah we will convert entire India to Islam... i have started this by converting my Hindu wife to Islam.

Soon we Muslimeen-e-hind will show the way to entire ummah in our quest for Khilafat. Islam Zindabad.

Feroz & Ras,

Thanks. Ras....if poetry were to make a comeback on chowk...don`t count on me to be at the frontline...have no taste for cyberlynching here at chowk,,,:)

t,

If fundamentalist grammarians let forth poetic prose at a poem...it must have some redeeming features.

Semipreciousme,

The monk was protesting the occupation of Tibet by China. The occassion of his self immolation was the visit of a Chinese bigshot to India, specifically Delhi.

There has been the restraining Dalai Lama who has so far kept Tibetan anger on leash constantly discouraging violence.

However, there are are often cases of his loyal cadre protesting violently...though not against anybody but themselves. Recently, when Ronji was on a visit to Bombay a Tibetan poet activist climbed the Oberoi Towers Hotel from a wall, scaled the 14th floor and unfurled a Tibetan flag.

Saminashah,

Thank you for your careful reading and thoughtful comments. I appreciate that very much.

Now to address your ``quibles...`` they were very acutely observed.

Well, this poem`s title is a Buddhist shrine in Sikkim, North East India. I had been there, and while the monks there moved me, the place is a seminary training young monks too, the huge Buddha there left me not so moved.

That is the takeoff point for this poem really.The clay cliche, and the entire first stanza is actually about that idol of Buddha being so much like ornate Buddhas of so many Buddhist shrines. Therefore the elaborate Lotus opening and the overdone idol being an artist`s overrehearsed but hardly original work. What I meant...though that should not interfere with your reading...is that the artist might have made it with great sincerity, maybe even reverance, but to me that innocence was finally worth stone. I am not seeing it as a reverent Buddhist visitor might.

The second quibble is a very petinent one, to my reading of your reading. While I will be reconsidering that point...maybe I`ll let you in to my reason for including that.

One of the Tibet`s abiding problems have been high profile espousals by famous Hollywood Budhists of celebrity...and at the same time little hope remains of the Tibetans getting anything from the Chinese even remotely addressing their concern to keep alive their unique culture.

I could not but feel that the cause is such a potent one for some..like Richard Gere...that it keeps it in circulation through HIS glamour. And yet. all that sympathy and genuine concern is essentially a symbolic act signifying nothing.

I do not know if you see anything in these lines other than defence. But there it is. I owe you my reasons, though I hate to explain my poems to anybody. The reason is that you read well. Thank you.

That was about the poem.

``Otherwise, except in a voyeuristic, ironic way, why should we care? What judgements are you leading us towards? (and are judgements in poems necessarily good things?)``

This is one way to look at it. Here you have already made your preferences clear. Am I leading you...as in any reader to a judgement...well not that I intended, but if you are heading somewhere I would not call it my leading you there. Your reading led you to some judgement.

Judgements in poems are just that much. If it works in the poem, as in gives it strength, helps it complete itself, then it can be there...because if it accomplishes all these things then it follows that it is an integral part of the poem. I have nothing against or for judgements in poems. To me there is an integral complete poem. If not, of course, it is too risky a liability. Much like a lot of that literature engage stuff. Little more than propaganda.

Actually I am travelling and would love to see this thread develop...so shall peep in again.

Thank you again for your thoughtful critique.

Harish

....i got it...tibetan should`ve been a dead giveaway...

Harish,

This is good work that has the potential to be a great poem. Some of the images were quite arresting-in fact that the images move this poem altogether is powerful. My two quibbles, and this is to let you know that I as a reader found this piece to be rather cryptic:

``Innocence worth stone

Opens the petals

Of a clay cliché.``

You might want to work on it. I`m no lazy reader, but my energy was distracted and frustrated in trying to figure what exactly that part meant.

Also, this following stanza adds a rancorous (intentional?) note into the conclusion. I understand the invocation of the surreal in your juxtaposition-however, my impulse would be to see the poem stay with monk or that scene, stay in the humanness of that scene, rather than jumping to a alienating comparision. Otherwise, except in a voyeuristic, ironic way, why should we care? What judgements are you leading us towards? (and are judgements in poems necessarily good things?)

``It sears and chills

Wooden spines of mannequins in

In the Barbie museum``

Keep writing! I look forward to reading more of your work on Chowk.

regards

…maybe i’m not getting it, but what was the cause for which he burned himself for?…

HN:

...you are no less a craftsman...(what was it janet from the poetry site had said?)

…chiselling phrases and words with the lost skill of a mountaineer on a foggy cliff!…and when the weather clears…one is awed by the piece of creativity…

…enjoyed some phrases again…clay cliché…unironed skin…Black sun, briefly breached…Wooden spines…

…keep sharing them…

rgds,

t

?

Well written but the meaning could have been lost without the intro.
Is poetry to make a comeback on CHOWK?

Ras

Nice!

Ciao