Riots

re saminashah #129:

feminazis have obviously upgraded and diversified. I was probably stuck with imitations of the real thing or I need to get out more :)

Waiting with baited breath for your Real man list.....

later

-sac

`Every Muslim should be His Own Priest`

Mohammed Ali Jinnah

Asif Naqshbandi

The men you have mentioned as `heretics` are the real true Muslims, in the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) . You .. you are nothing but a pathetic bigoted fool, who belongs to the same creed as Pagan Quresh.

Go to hell.

Reply Shammi # 495

“It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days).”

Shammiji, I have a feeling that you’re talking about and very specific slice of Delhi, where attitudes are much more relaxed about creed, caste etc. than in some other places – and where, consequently, a lot more mil jol happens.

“The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid.”

Very possibly. He’s up there with the best when it comes to cutting his coat to the cloth of popular opinions.

“I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.”

I don’t know that Pakistan had all that much to do with it, though the birth of Bangladesh certainly put paid to the TNT in many people’s minds. IMHO it’s a combination of a generation growing up in post-Partition India – more confident and certainly less apologetic, perhaps even demanding - and also the gradual decrease of religion as a definer in many of the metros. But I agree that it’s a synergistic thing, with Hindu and Muslim “tolerance” (for want of a better word) a benevolent cycle.

But then how to explain Gujarat? Including Godhra? Is Gujarat an exception? How many Indias are there, and are they a function of more than just physical geography? (I think that class IS a factor – your father seeing less bigotry and more integration is accurate for succesful urban Punjabi culture – but what about the rest?) Which of these Indias does the BJP et al represent? What about the Indian Muslim League?

Tavleen Singh in her column in India Today said it really well. (Paraphrasing) We thought we had beaten communalism, that we had outgrown it, we really did. Gujarat really shows that this can’t “just” happen with good governance and decent economic policies. It needs more from us, and it’s beginning to be apparent what.

Regards

Reply Roohi # 499

“Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby.”

Entirely justifiable. Much better game. (And don’t even mention Rugby Union…)

“No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!”

Aussie Dollar still cheap!!! Do it now!!!!!

Hey, are you or your pitaji familiar with Brisvaani? Our Mr Subrotoda is involved and has his own show (I think). See how talented Chowk Vaalaas are!

Reply Prem # 501

“Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.”

Entirely believable, no?

“But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..’

Oops. I knew that I’d get hauled onto the carpet as soon as I posted that…

“Our spooks ARE better than theirs.”

Kaa kahath dudeva? Hamar spookeva (insert appropriate Mallika Pukhraj dadra line here. Khabariya na le is not appropriate.)

Reply Harimau # 508

“Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?”

That’s a vicious rumour!!!…er, ok, yes they do, but Mansion has a strict door policy so I didn’t see any of them even trying. Melbourne is famous for this.

Actually there is a colony of dwarf penguins that lives in the bay at Melbourne. Permanently.

Re Roohi # 499

``please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !``

Will do madam, these eyes can identify faujis in a 5 km radius so will be on the lookout.

Vaise if you want to listen to Brisbane`s hindi radio station on the web, try www.brisvaani.com

Why not get a request played for your loved ones in Brisvegas?

Asif: The simplest thing we can get from khidr is to know that we don`t always know exactly who we`re dealing with. For this reason, one should bring her best to the table. Don`t assume ur talking to a novice. I didnt ask for quotes (speak when spoken to, and on the said topic only). If i wanted the collective opinion of sufism, i woulda asked for it.

You`re responses are too western. Dont quote anything, just relax, feel free and say whats on ur mind. And PLEASE think deeply about each line u write.

It does not matter whether the truth is said. It still remains true. That hallaj said it outloud is irrelevent. He said something that is true, yet against sharia. Further, there are many more examples of sufi`s diverging from sharia and following inner truths. Sharia was an exmaple of outward islam, u should know what muhammed passed on to his family. Such interpretation puts life in a dead book (quran).

``I do not wish to discuss this any more as it is not only pointless but dangerous too (spiritually speaking) for us to debate the subtleties of the Masters when we are not worthy to mention their names!``

Message not messenger. Masters are not relevant to the idea being raised. And as one trains to decrease his ego, he should also train to remain HONEST. Im not worthy of mentioing Rumi`s name??? Dont over emphasize (and change) a point to the degree that you begin speaking for a deceased master. (ie would rumi agree with your stance?). Humbility without honesty is as worse as arrogance without control.

And this IZ worth discussing, far more then anything else on this thread.

Asif Naqshbandi Sahib,

If you can, please clarify this issue … do some of the scholars you derive guidance from (e.g. Barelvi/Jamiaat scholars or other sunni scholars) believe that some verses of Quran are now abrogated?

Your insightful comments will be much appreciated.

Regards

Asad

Re: Naqshbandi

``...Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never!...``

That was a clever attempt, but it failed to convice me. What you omitted was the fact that while medical doctors are certified in an open process that involves publicly adminstered examinations (and keeps the quacks out), is there a similar process for appointing the ulema? Or are they self-appointed by their chamchas?

Attn: Naqshbandi Sahib.

Or any other Chowk`s leading poster for that matter (TAhmed,Urstruly,YLH,Prem,hamidm,saminashah etc.)

Could you please check out my last post on this thread.

Thanks.

Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 489

[I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…]

Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?

YLH

From your last post which was filled from top to bottom with insults and complete ignorance of Islam and its history [in short you want to make Islam fit your own ignorant and limited ideas which are just basic imitations of modern secularism; there have been many such heretix like you before; Ahmed Khan AligaRi, Ataput, Abduh, etc. etc.] i give notice that i will no longer interact with you on this forum; you hold the words and actions of Jinnah above those of the Beloved Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) as I said in my last post which you conveniently ignored. In the Madinan State Shariah Law was followed and applied. Jizya was taken from the non-Muslims, adulterers were stoned to death, thieves hands were cut, the complete Islamic system was in place and all this happened in the lifetime of Allah`s Perfect and Infallible Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and was continued by his righteous successors. If you cannot stomach that, who cares! Go and join your Ataturk! And please don`t bother replying to me anymore as you are not interested in learning but in insulting Islam and its beautiful Law.

Allah`s Curse be on the liars!

* * * * *

If anyone else on this forum wishes to discuss with me in a civilised way I will be happy to try my best.

* * * * * *

shammi -- no I do not follow the Koran based on my own understanding. For the non-mujtahid, taqlid [following qualified scholarship] is wajib as Allah`s says in the Qur`an in Surah Fatiha: Guide me on the path of those You have favoured. and also in another surah ``If you do not know, ASK those who know`` and also ``Follow Allah and His Messenger AND THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONGST YOU.``

Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never! In the same way we do not follow our own whims and fancies and must take the deen from those who know--those on the same way as that of Allah`s Messenger and His Companions.

For good articles on taqlid and its importance please see www.masud.com as it explains everything much better than I from learned ulamah and shaykhs.

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DRUMZ wrote (sorry i missed your post first time

``It speaks volumes that a sufi would say that, yet support a law which has itself killed numerous sufis. There are serious problems in what u say. Your outlook speaks of introspection, yet your beliefs are tarnished with fear and cowardice. U need to balance yourself. Think before u speak and dont say anything u dont TRUELY believe in. Unless ur not balanced on this world and the next, stable, nuetral, intense and ready to die, your not worth anyone`s time.``

If you are referring to Shar`iah Law then know that all of the great Sufis have always stressed the importance of Shariah in Sufism and that there is NO sufism or spiritual experiences outside Shar`iah. As the great Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi said that we examine all our hals and spiritual states and karamats in the light of Shar`iah and if any of them are against the Shar`iah by even a hairbreadth we reject them!

As to why a few great sufis, such as Hallaj, were killed under Shar`iah--that is a subtle point which the Sufi masters have discussed but it is not to be divulged to anyone; Rumi said that Hallaj achieved ma`arifah [gnosis], Love of Allah but he was not able to handle it and in his ecstasy divulged a Divine Secret which he was not supposed to and so Allah caused him to be martyred by His Law. It was another great Sufi al-Junayd-one of the spiritual masters of Hallaj (may Allah sanctify all their secrets!) who signed the death-warrant of Hallaj--although he changed into the garb of a judge before doing that! These are subtle matters but suffice it to say that their is NO contradiction between shar`ia and authentic sufism: on the other hand you get jahil faqirs who commit all sorts of unislamic acts under the pretext of Sufism and these people are rejected most harshly of all by the authentic Sufis themselves. I do not wish to discuss this any more as it is not only pointless but dangerous too (spiritually speaking) for us to debate the subtleties of the Masters when we are not worthy to mention their names!

But let me assure you that I always write what i truly believe; and as for my spiritual teacher alhamdulillah he is a True Master and a genuine Sufi and I have pledged my life and soul to him and do not need to change teachers!

As for the bit about wasting time on Chowk on pointless discussions and spending more time on self-purification I agree with you totally and thank you for that good advice. I come to Chowk for a bit of light relief and entertainment. That`s all. And sometimes I learn things too.

A final quote from that great Sufi Rumi to END this discussion about Sufism with you. I hope you too will take it on board insha Allah:

The Master from Konya says:

I am the slave of the Koran

While I still have life.

I am the dust on the path of Muhammad,

The Chosen One.

If anyone interprets my words

In any other way,

I deplore that person,

And I deplore his words.

-mawlana jalaluddin al-rumi

And I end with a quote from the Sufi who by consensus of the Sufis themselves is the Greatest Sufi and the Sultan al Awliya:

Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani said:

``Anyone who does not follow the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), taking his Law [shari`a] in one hand and the Book that was revealed to him in the other hand, and who does not attain to by his path [tariq] to Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He), will perish and perish, will go astray and go astray. They are two guides to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He). The Qur`an is your guide to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He), and the Sunna is your guide to the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace).

O Allah, cause a separation between us and our lower selves [nufus], and:

Give us in this world good, and good in the hereafter, and guard us against the torment of the fire. [Qur`an 2:201] ``

From Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani, ``The Sublime Revelation`` [Al-Fath ar-Rabbani], translated by Muhtar Holland (Published by Al-Baz Publishing, Houston, Texas, 1992). The quote is from the end of the twenty-fifth discourse, p. 182.