Riots

Reply Sadna # 294

“Most of MY life Pakistan was only another country like Sri Lanka or Malaysia or Indonesia or India. I didnot read anything about Pakistan at all in my school books.”

Sadna, would that it had been so in my life. Every time some Indo-Pak thing came up (the wars, etc.) there was some numbskull would make the connection between Indian Muslims and Pakistan. (Many people, numbskulls and otherwise, did not, but even a few are enough.) Like many Indo Muslims (correct me if I’m wrong, fellow IM s) while I was growing up I truly wished that Pakistan would just disappear and not appear on my radar at all. I was sick of being associated with them, and the things “they” did. (Now that I’m grown up, of course, the “they” is no longer monolithic, but who nuts these things out as a child?)

(On a related aside – it fills me with fear that there has been a report that LeT – backed by Pakistan? – has sent a team in to infiltrate Ayodhya and blow up the provisional mandir there. Like it or not, Indian Muslims are hostage in some minds to LeT’s bad behaviour. Unke maan behain Pakistan men baithe hain, hamare hi maare jayenge jahilon ke haath voh kuchh Ayodhya men kar paye tho etc. etc. And the only people who can prevent that from happening are not LeT JeM goons, but decent Hindus. True, na? Let those who have ears….)

“Even in other things, I didnot automatically recognise things as `Pakistani`. For example even after being a fan, for a long time I didnot even know Ghulam Ali and Reshma were not Indian. I enjoyed Pakistani plays for their fresh language after ghissi-pitti Hindi/Hindustani of Mumbai and DD and those qawaalis which autodrivers sometimes played :). Even here in the US, I attended a joint Indo-Pak exhibition of Harappa relics and didnot realise that the larger portion of relics must have been contributed by the Pakistani Archeological dept, the distribution of these relics didnot seem more than a minor detail in the history of our region.”

That’s the other side of the coin. I know – who knew unka unique culture shulture hai? On that note my parents tell me that they just attended an evening of “sufi music” in Delhi (at Arab Ki Sarai, a partially restored sarai attached to the Humayun’s Tomb complex) which featured Abida Parveen. I was green with jealousy, even though they said there was too much droning accompaniment and not enough Abida.

“Another inseparable part of their identity seems to be a carefully cultivated feeling of being cheated out of their rightful Muslim heritage, a sort of premepted Mughal succession attributed to sneaky scheming of uppity Hindus namely Indians.”

Surely this isn’t universal. Admittedly the number of people on this board claiming to be descended from Brahmins, Rajputs and other social luminaries (including the Mughal aristocracy?) instead of untouchables and low class Persian soldiers (not that caste or class matter in Islam, mind you) is surprisingly high, but who knows? Perhaps Mughal genes include a propensity for internet use?

Anyway…I digress…my point REALLY is that people of ill intent will find something to hang that intent on. Jay (from our side) did it by dragging honour killings into every discussion, even when we were swapping recipes. Urstruly continues to do it with Kashmir (including bogus statistics), etc. etc. They also tend to find what is most annoying and go with that, lacking valid arguments. As said to Drumz, somewhere, engaging with that is to some extent debating on their terms and in their paradigm, not something that one would wish to do, or should have to do.

Vaisai, it might be interesting to cross check who uses terminology such as you are talking about, and what their views on some indicator subjects are. (One indicator I’d suggest: Ahmedis.) Is there a correlation? What proportion actually use this language? (One would have to do wordcount etc. type stuff to do this properly – otherwise one tends to focus on what sticks in one’s mind, which hideousness tends to.) Might also be interesting to do something like that for us – which terminology, which indicators – khair, just a thought.

“…why cannot they shake free of this Hindu-fixation?”

TNT, reason for the state, ???

“Religious differences also seem very important, if you happen to be disagreeing with a Pakistani, your religion or theirs is likely to make an early entry into the conversation, even if it has nothing to do with what you are discussing.”

Ditto.

“The jilted girlfriend theory is hence (as far as I am personally concerned) nothing more a wishful and self-serving misrepresentation.”

Sigh. But it sounded so nice, no? Permit me to cast it, in my mind, like a 1970s Bollywood fillum, complete with fields of flowers, fat people dancing around trees, and loads of “laaaaaaaaaaaaaaalalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaalalalalalalalaaaaaaaaaaa!” type singing. ALL the Kapoors will be acting in it, even the dead ones. Oh, and also the Big B. Wahida Rehman will do a cameo appearance. Before you reject out of hand, keep in mind - the movies ensure a happy ending (and if we play it right, tax exempt status.)

Zafar

Reply Godot # 313

“My premise is that Indian hatred towards Pakistan has been institutionalized in India.”

Which institutions in India promote hatred towards Pakistan? Specifically. Are these Government institutions?

“To support my premise, I present a hypothesis, ie, past Muslim presence in India and Pakistan being a symbol of that presence.”

A hypothesis is a provisional explanation for something, not a proof - but anyway, unclear logic. Why would the Indian Government resent past Muslim presence in India when the polity of the State since Independence has been to maintain current Muslim presence in India? Why would Pakistan represent past Muslim presence in India rather than Indian Muslims?

If you are talking about the Mughals etc., keep in mind that the yearly address to the Nation by the PM on Republic Day goes out from the ramparts of the Red Fort (built by the Mughals) in Delhi. The Indian Tourism Development Corp uses the Taj Mahal (another Mughal built structure), there are any number of roads/public buildings etc. named after Muslim rulers.

“I cite Indian Government attitude towards Pakistan, Times of India, and posts by Chowk Indian interactors such as Jay, harimau, and you as evidence (I have also experienced this personally when my Hindu acquaintances, in their candid moments, let their guard down while discussing Pakistan with me; their hatred towards Pakistan is abominable and shocking, to say the least.)”

Stop supporting people who explode bombs in India and see how this attitude changes for the better. Pakistan’s present actions offer a far less convoluted reason for the high esteem Pakistan currently enjoys in India than some theory about resentment of past Muslim presence in the country (which, btw, seems to imply that the Pakistani state`s actions have NOTHING to do with Indian views of Pakistan. Convenient.)

“Now, it is my most sincere wish that my premise and my hypothesis above were totally false.”

Mine also.

“You are not proving me wrong in your posts.”

Actually, we are all waiting for you to prove your hypothesis and premise.

Or at least support them with some undisputed facts instead of airy fairy opinions. You could start by answering: Which institutions promote anti-Pakistani feelings in India? How is this tied in with past – as opposed to present – Muslim presence in India? How do you explain the on-going use of things built by Muslim rulers as symbols of the Indian State?)

Regards

Shammi: Various posts to Sadna

Are you trying to get on tahmed321`s sanctimonious high horse? But there is space only for one preacher, so let it go.

While Sadna can be and has been strident, you are being extremely uncivil and obnoxious.

It was time someone showed you the mirror.

Satyavadi

sadna #299,

you`re so sweet

re: shammi

{{And if I allow myself to respond in kind, will I not have proven his point, even as I disprove my own?}}

...why do you care so much about perception? if you know you are not, your response doesn`t prove or disprove anything....

RSaxena #316
Give it up, shammi here seems to have gone totally off his rocker.

Re: Rsaxena

``...it was a langoor from pakistan who made insinuations about the level of evolution of indians like you...``

And if I allow myself to respond in kind, will I not have proven his point, even as I disprove my own?

Long Live India

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20020313/od/job_dc_1.html

Wednesday March 13 11:07 AM ET

Man Gets Job Interview Call After 34 Years

Calcutta, India (Reuters) - A man in the eastern Indian city of Calcutta who applied for a state government job 34 years ago finally got an interview call -- but said on Wednesday he was now too old for a post.

Ravindra Nath Halder, 52 and a grandfather, was just a teen-ager when he put his name down for work at a state labor exchange office in Marxist-ruled West Bengal.

Halder, a snackshop owner, said he was amazed to get the letter dated March 6 from the labor exchange asking him to come for an interview after so long.

``I`d given up hope. I`d applied in 1968. I`m now 52 and too old for a government job,`` Halder, a father of two daughters and a son, told Reuters.

In any event, anyone older than 37 is ineligible for a job in the state government or its affiliated organizations.

But the family still hasn`t abandoned hope one of them will get a job through the labor exchange. Halder`s son put his name down at the exchange for a job four years ago but has not yet been called.

``I hope he has better luck than me,`` he said.

Labor minister Mohammad Amim told Reuters it often took a ``long time`` for a person to be called for an interview.

``We have 77 state employment exchanges state-wide and more than 5.5 million persons are registered on them. Just 16-17,000 people listed get jobs every year,`` Amin said.

West Bengal has a population of more 70 million people.

re: godot

the land of the less evolved draws more attention...i guess with osama investing money in pakistan, you don`t really need anyone else...

{{AOL chief for strong business with India



NEW DELHI: Media conglomerate AOL Time Warner on Thursday said that it is looking at strengthening its business partnership in the country.

``We want to build a global company, with Indian co-operation,`` AOL Time Warner chief executive officer Gerald Levin told a gathering of Indian media and corporate head honchos in the capital.

Levin said his company’s strategy has been to look at building relationships and develop partnerships in the country. He acknowledged that the country offers great business opportunities for the AOL-Time Warner group.

The conglomerate is currently looking at various opportunities in the field of media and entertainment, in the broadcasting, films, internet and publications space, he added.

He was addressing a seminar, ``Internet: The infrastructure for freedom``, organised by CII.}}

re: banjaara

aren`t you going to answer my question about why some indians want special treatment such as their own personal and civil code but they want equal treatment when some cash is involved?...

actually, nevermind...i know you don`t have an answer

re: godot

so indians hate pakistan and muslims -- `abomination` as you call it --- but pakistanis such as ali, urstruly, asif naqsha, and hamid gul love india and all religions ... see, normally it is too painful for me to state the obvious to dimwits, so i stick to mockery...i`m doing you a favor this time by giving you a chance to extract your anterior from your posterior...

Banjaara,

Jeeyo, Boss :)

May we have a few more rulers like Asaf-ud-daula.

Best regards.

re: Godot # 313

Will you be willing to put your premise and hypothesis to some rigorous and objective scrutiny?

Others,

Who is this paramhansa fellow? He is threatening to kill himself in ayodhya. Can`t someone help him out by doing away with him today?

ylh #305 Happy Birthday. You are now two years old. And running around in your diapers calling people ``stupid, stupid``. Very cute.

D-Day - 1:

The BJP is in a lose-lose situation now. If they don`t hold back the VHP, the situation could blow up all over India, resulting in many current and future Gujarat type incidences.

If the BJP does hold back the VHP, it is basically killing its own voting base. The BJP and the VHP both are sister groups under the parent RSS. The former is the political arm, while the later is the religious arm. The BJP already seems to have lost its peripheral power base, if it loses its core Hinduvta powerbase, it will have no votes left. Added to this is the fact that the VHP has said it will carry out the puja, come what may. Ayodhya is after all the most important issue on the VHP-BJP manifesto. The BJP sking the VHP to hold-off now, after cooperating on this same agenda for so long, will not work.

This brings us to the question: What will happen if the VHP followers come out in the tens of thousands and attempt to carry out the puja. Ideoligically, the BJP would like to join them their for the puja themselves. However, legally, as the elected party in power, it is bound to uphold the Supreme Court verdict. Will the BJP- appointed police fire at the members of its own sister party, and at the BJP`s most devoted voters of the BJP? If it does, then that brings the BJP in conflict with the VHP (and RSS). It is already in conflict with most other groups in India.

Had the court allowed the puja, BJP would have been in a better position. It could have killed two birds with one stone, i.e. it could have stated that it wants to stop the puja, but cannot do so due to the court decision. The BJP has probably been desparately trying to get the VHP from backing off from the puja, and follow the court orders. However, it has been unsuccessful (at least that is what the VHP statements seem to indicate).

My guess is that the VHP will gather in large numbers to carry out the puja. The police will try to be seen as stopping the puja. However, it will not take any harsh actions. The VHP will be let in, without too much resistance. The puja will occur. This will allow the BJP to state that it tried to uphold the court order, but some VHP members got thru. This will also allow the BJP to satisfy its sister group (VHP) and its core voters of the VHP.

I think the BJP will soon have to make a choice: if it gives outright support to VHP, it will keep its core voters, survive as a popular party (either in power or as the main opposition), but will destroy India in the process. If it takes on the VHP, it will lose its core voters, destroy itself, but save India in the process.

Damned if you do; damned if you don`t situation for the BJP.

The social future of a legally secular India as a whole, and specifically of Indian Muslims, ironically lies in the hands of the very extremist religious party of the VHP, now. Let`s see if it thinks along self-serving lines or along lines for the betterment of India on March 15 thru March 27. My guess unfortunately is the former.

Muslim killings in India, Palestine not the same: Saudi paper

http://www.arabnews.com

Dubai, Mar 14 An influential Saudi Arabian newspaper has defended India`s secular record, pointing out that the country has already had two Muslim presidents while many Muslims have served in cabinet positions.

The Saudi newspaper Arab News, in a report titled ``Muslim killings in Palestine and India,`` said that the situation in the two areas was different.

``India is a secular republic in which anyone with any religion has a share in government and can reach the highest echelons of the state. India has already had two Muslim presidents while many Muslims have served in cabinet positions.

``Israel, however, is a Jewish state in which non-Jews, even those that become citizens of the state, do not enjoy equal status,`` an article in the paper said.

The article was written in response to one by Thomas Friedman, a New York Times columnist, who asked: ``Why is it that when Hindus kill hundreds of Muslims in India it elicits an emotionally muted headline in the Arab media, but when Israel kills a dozen Muslims it inflames the entire Muslim world?``

Said the Arab News article: ``The Muslims killed in India are victims of sectarian violence that has a long history in the subcontinent. The latest round of killings started with the massacre of 60 Hindus by Muslim militants in Gujarat. The government does not conduct the killings in India. In Palestine, however, it is the Israeli government that does the killings.``

Drawing a distinction between the happenings in Gujarat and in Palestine, the article said: ``Gujarat is not an occupied territory. Its people freely chose to be part of India when Britain partitioned the subcontinent. Muslims had the option of either staying in India or transferring to the newly created Pakistan, which at the time included the present-day Bangladesh.

``Israel, on the other hand, is killing people, demolishing homes and dismantling infrastructure in occupied territories.``

The newspaper said that ``during the past year or so, Israel has killed 1,100 Palestinians and wounded a further 7,000.

``Relative to the total population in the occupied territories, that is the equivalent of killing 110,000 and injuring 700,000 Muslims in India, assuming that there are 120 million Muslims in that country.``

The incidents in Gujarat were an internal Indian tragedy, while what was happening in Palestine was a ``colonial conflict with one nation seeking to exercise its right of self-determination against an occupying power,`` the article observed.

re: male poster from India #297

{{Re: Female poster from India

I recall that you had made an insinuation about the level of evolution of Pakistanis.}}

...if you would stop jumping on the tin roof and look carefully, it was a langoor from pakistan who made insinuations about the level of evolution of indians like you...