Riots

Why do Pakistani posters spend so much time editorializing ? No straight replies to points raised in posts by Indian posters, only generalized excoriation of Indians and Indian posters.

pmishra2 #189

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/13/international/asia/13REPO.html

``..Five years later, still in jail awaiting trial, he was released, in exchange for the release of passengers aboard a Indian Airlines jet that had been hijacked from Katmandu, a hijacking in which Pakistani intelligence officials had a hand, American officials have said...``

Yesterday`s New York Times quotes American officials saying that Pakistani intelligence agencies `had a hand` in the IC814 hijacking.

And to think even an eminent Pakistani like Cowasjee accused India of engineering the hijacking in his Dawn column. Highranking officials in the Musharraf goverment made similar accusations against India in their statements to the press after the Pearl kidnapping. India has been asking for these hijackers to be extradited ever since the hijacking and Pakistan has been refusing even knowledge of these hijackers.

The hijacking is another item to add on your list of the `friendly gestures` of Pakistan toward India.

FOR THE RECORD

For the record, it must be known that during the Supreme Court hearing and subsequent decision yesterday, to not allow, any kind of worship on or near the disputed site, the State of India, i.e. the Vajpayee government has sided with Hindu goons, psychopaths, arsonists, rapists, murderers and mosque demolishers. India`s attorney general Mr. Sohrab was representing, in the supreme court, these religious nuts on behalf of the government. Government`s stance was to let these goons, who are an insult to Ram, worship Ram at the disputed site (thus defying previous Supreme Court orders). Which means that goon`s case was being presented and paid for by the government`s expense. This is some m`fcuking secularism and de-MOCK-racy.

saminashah #265
Ms Spivak is right to feel afraid about the support VHP gets in the US, I feel afraid too(remember we talked about NRI funding of institutions in India way back?). People living in well-policed suburbs with children safely attending school often see no problem in justifying and supporting rioting and raping 12000 miles away.

VHP America is registered as a charitable tax exempt organisation. It seems to have legitimate activities both here and in India. The problem is tracing how much of the financial support from the US directly `enables` the VHP to do things in India which would violate its tax-exempt status in the US. Most of the websites I have found which speak of this connection are missionary sites, Muslim and Christian who seem to be complaining that VHP is getting involved in tribal areas ( namely a turf battle over conversions). Given that these activities of Muslim and Christian organisations get overseas funding too, its hard to make a case only against VHP for overseas funding, a broadbased approach would be needed..

Community action, information dissemination and awareness seems to be the most effective way to tackle the hateful and inciteful, or political part of VHP agenda in the US, a legal case againt VHP America`s connection with VHP India may be more difficult to make, though it should be attempted too.

Do you have more specifics about what feminist rhetoric the VHP movement is utilizing? I am not from Gujarat incidentally(though a cousin and some friends live there) so I`m not sure what Ms Spivak was referring too.

tahmad/Godot etc.: Why are Indian posts more hate filled than Pakistani posts on this site:

My two paisas: there are two groups of Indians that visit this site: one group is extremely interested about Pakistan. Why else would they spend so much time on a site this is primarily, ``Pakistani.`` To this group, Pakistan is an unknown place they want to know about. Pakistanis assume that Indians know as much about Pakistan, as vice versa. This is not true, at all. My experience has been that Indians know next to nothing about Pakistan, while Pakistan know quite a bit about India, through movies, songs, relatives etc.

So the above Indian group comes on this site, tolerates the mostly pro-Pakistani views here. Everyone now and then, this group gets angry, but on the whole is about as cooperative and respectful as one can expect any group to be (from a country with which Pakistan is constantly in a state of cold and hot wars).

The second group is the hate brigade. This group`s motivation is to make sure all Pakistani comments are countered and never heard. To them, Chowk is a threat, since this site allows Pakistanis to discuss and introspect. The more subtle amongst this group belongs to the Ganguly school of thought, distorting comments with finesse. While the second part of this group belongs to the Advani school of thought.

Both the above Indians groups have extremely strong, though completely opposing, motivations for visiting this site. Hence, their regular visits on this site.

Of all the groups on this site, both Pakistani and Indian, the group that deserves the most credit is the first group of Indians mentioned above. They really have a quest of knowledge, so much so, that they are willing to crawl into the, ``enemy`s`` trench (or website in this case) to have a talk with him.

My personal motivation for coming on this site is to actually talk to Indians; specically of the first group. While I have been talking to Indians in person, about once every five minutes or so, for the past ten years, for obvious reasons we rarely discuss volatile Pakistani-Indian issues. On this site, one can do so.

Pakistanis are not as abusive as the second Indian group, probably because they see this site as a, ``Pakistani`` site (regardless of what Chowk Staff says). So Pakistanis are not as defensive about Pakistan and things Pakistani, here. And perhaps also, due to Pakistanis` (much) greater knowledge of India, than vice-versa, Pakistanis are able to present (much) more facts about India in arguments/debates with Indians, than vice-versa. This reduces the need for rhetoric from the Pakistani side.

So my advice to Indians, of both groups: you need to start watching Mustapha Qureshi, Sultan Rahi, Badar Muni and Anjuman and Musarrat Shaheen movies, and thus increase your knowledge about Pakistan, thereby making it easier for you to counter the information presented here by Pakistanis. You also may also want to read up on the two great Pakistanis (given honorary Pakistani citizenship by some Pakistanis on this site) named Mustapha Kamal and Imam Ghazali, while you are watching the above-mentioned movies. Personally speaking, I prefer the movies.

Reply Hobbyty # 231

“I invite you to consider: The rightly guided exist in contract, even if unconscious of the contract, with the transgressors.”

Hobyty, bhaisaab. Ar e you say that EVERY INTERACTION IS CONTRACT? Contact is implying consent – qubool hay – but many interaction aren ot mutually agreed upon.

“If today non-Western peoples have a complaint aginst Western peoples, if the slave against the slaver, the aggressed against the aggressor, it is because in each case this was the inevitable consequence of the ``unconscious``, ``invisible`` contract between the two, as forces of history. If you agree this this was an inevitable consequence, what is the merit of placing blame?”

Perhaps slaver et al BROKE SOCIAL CONTRACT by taking slave. From slave’s pov, the SOCIAL CONTRACT thgey were involve din meant they free people. Hgow can there becontract between difrant world view,m haiN?

“If one does wish to be a victim, one behaves in a manner that makes such an eventuality impossible, is this not so? “

What this has tod o with anything? You are using big quote to change subject.

OK. Critic you approach in Vedantic manner:

You say : Murderer and Victim have “contract”

What about: This kills not, neither is this killed.

How you are liking them apple? OK?

Reply Narain # 244

“The problem is that India faces a similar problem. If muslims are a part of India, then their cultural heritage MUST be a part of India`s identity too. We cannot allow someone else to lay claim to it.”

I don’t see the major problem as one of India vying with Pakistan for “ownership” of the subcontinent’s Muslim heritage, though how that heritage is defined and understood differs as a function of our nationalisms. (Essentially - if we disagree on it, so what?)

It is an internal issue, of seeing it as a part of composite Indian culture. Most Indians do see it in this manner. Some (of several religions) do not, and that is at the root of much of the trouble in the country today. I do think the former view is held by the majority, but the minority is neither so small, not so peaceful, that it can be written off – it has to be dealt with.

Zafar

Reply Tahmed321

``...one sees on chowk from the Indian posters I am referring to could just as well have been written by a jilted girlfriend...``

Bilkul sahi. I hope you all feel guilty now.

(And I am proud to be on any list Kafirsahib compiles. Wouldn’t you be?)

Reply Shammi # 258

shammi

“BTW, on the Indira Gandhi quote about `avenging 1000 years, etc.` is that for real? Any references? She banked heavily on Muslim support for winning elections, and would have been politically dumb to have made a remark like that in public.”

This sounds like a hypothetical Nirupama Rao quote that was bandied about chowk a few months ago – something overtly anti-Muslim – which turned out to be a fabrication of a columnist from uss paar. (Something along the lines of what will she say next? That “…”?

Reply Drumz # 256

“The only way out is self control. To always remain nuetral and thinking and to not speak on someone elses terms.”

True dat. But hard to do. Humour sometimes helps.

Reply Farzana # 220

“…large nations have the advantage of being seen as BIG in every way.”

We need a big heart to match.

“Another reason why Indian Muslims have to deal with an Arab identity [they] have no truck with and a Pakistani utopia they chose not to make their home.”

An article on this would be VERY interesting.

“…gay rights activists…yeah, that is when you forget about Muslims as sodomisers.”

Farzana, you KNOW he has been traumatised by that mysterious Pathan who keeps showing up every six months. And now this? Taubah!

Reply Subroto # 217

“I have drawn up of 50 dishes I have come to admire in the Cusine of the World:”

The first useful list I have seen on this board. Thank you. But I agree with Bong Dongs – more bong grub needed urgently. (Did you include mishti doi, or are sweets not being dealt with here. And paella is Spanish Biryani? They’re not going to like this in Barcelona…pssst! Paathra NEE machhee)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Another Jinnah Contradiction Exposed

...so as young ylh claims, this jinnah fellow wanted indian muslims to be indians and pakistanis to be only pakistanis, regardless of religion...

WHAT A BUNCH OF COCKABULL

here`s what jinnah is quoted as saying in 1946...a clear indication that he had no regard for secularism...and all he wanted was a nation for muslims...he never believed that bullcrap ylh wants us to to believe....unless he did believe that but was just a power hungry opportunist willing to grab power any way he could....

{{Moslem League President Mohamed Ali Jinnah, who demands a separate Moslem state (Pakistan), accused Attlee of ``rope-walking,`` repeated his doctrine that ``the Moslems of India are not a minority but a nation, and self-determination is their birthright.``}}

Sadhana,

How`s it going?

I just heard Gayatri Spivak speak on the communal violence in Gujrat. She made a couple of interesting points; that she was quite disturbed by the violence and that the VHP seems to enjoy some popularity among the younger Indian-American generation. She added that she fears this support in the US will provide a base for communal activity in India, and she perceives commualism to be against what India stands for.

As a feminist, I was really intrigued by a comment that Spivak made, namely that VHP movements were utilizing feminist rhetoric in service for rightwing ideology, something she witnessed herself in India, and found appalling. She says that feminists outside of Gujrat have been speaking against these subversions, but within Gujrat and the violence and chaos, its much more difficult for Indian feminists. Any thoughts?

regards

re: godot

{{``most indians consider pakistan a banana republic``

Wrong.}}

you`re so insightful and shrewd...you saw right through it...reality is i admire pakistan...i wish i was in pakistan and a graduate of a pakistani university...screw IITs, pakistani universities are so much better...and the jobs in pakistan are so much better...i hear everyone from Goldman Sachs to McKinsey to Microsoft to the World Bank is recruiting on Pakistani campuses...and not to mention the instant recognition a pakistani passport would earn me wherever i went...

Ref Tamil Rapist #: 250

[Things that are known to ALL pakis and unknown to ANY injun:

.......

(4) Tamils of india want a separate country..

....

I`m curious about where all this special knowledge comes from...]

Most likely from the writings of The Great Intellectual and The Doctor Artist Leader.

No matter what you say, you cannot deny that these traitors used Tamil separatism -- actually, their claim was for Dravidastan until the folks in Andhra, Kerala and Karnataka told them to shove Dravidastan up their tailpipes -- to get to power.