Riots

YLH writes:

Questions:

1) Was Majlis e Ahrar `Deobandi`?

YES

2) Was Jamaat e Islami `Deobandi`?

YES AND THEY STILL ARE. READ THEIR WEBSITE AND YOU WILL SEE PRAISE OF DEOBANDI SCHOLARS.

3) Was Ataullah Shah Bukhari of Dehli `Deobandi`?

DO NOT KNOW.

4) Was Abu al Kalaam Azad `Deobandi`?

YES.

I wrote:

``AND Barelvis make up the VAST majority of Sunni Muslims in the Subcontinent. In fact without the support which many pirs with hundreds of thousands of murids gave to Jinnah throughout the length and breadth of United India Pakistan would never have come into existence.``

This is a FACT. You cannot deny this. Why don`t you read the books I recommended? They are both written by non-Muslim Western educated academics.

Even today Barelvis make up most of the subcontinents Sunni Muslims. Jamiat-e-Ulema-Pakistan (JUP) is a Barelvi party. The Markazi Jama`at Ahle Sunnat had annual meetings (eg 1946) where they unanimously voted for SUPPORTING Pakistan. In fact Quad himself attended this meeting which was presided over by Hadrat Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah rahmatullah alayhi and over 1000 scholars and shaykhs from all over India came. At this meeting all present unanimously voted for Pakistan. In fact Hadrat Amir e Millat Qibla Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah gave a fatwa that he would not read the namaz e janazah of any of his murids (over 1 million) who did not vote for the Muslim League and Pakistan!

* * * * * *

Dont let your hatred of Islam blind you to the truth. As for Jinnah`s demise, according to Prof. Akbar S Ahmed and his book Jinnah: The Search for Saladin he writes that Quaid e AZam was actually buried according to SUNNI ceremonies which suggests he converted. Allah knows best the state of his iman.

Zafar #464

Typical Sydney sider !! Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!

You`re right about that trip being worth it - when that immigration guy stamps my passport at Sydney and says Welcome Home ! makes that 15 hour trip trapped in a tin can from LA worth it (after 6 hours trapped in a tin can from Boston to LA).

My huge Khandaan lives all over OZ including Sydney but most are in Brisbane - so that`s where I end up on trips back. I have to admit it takes some getting used to when I get back to Boston after a few weeks of soaking up the sun on the Gold Coast !!

On my last trip the flight I took from BOS to LAX was American Flight 11 (yes that one that hit the WTC first) they code share with Quantas ... Sept 11 was only 2 months after that trip - still makes me sick to think of me and my babas in that plane :-(

Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!

Re: Naqshu

I hate living in the past, but occassionally your disinformation needs to be corrected. You said, `they never forced ppl to become Muslims in their kingdoms`.

I say, have you heard of Guru Tegh Bahadur (of the Sikhs) and his sons, or of Bhai Matti Das Chibber?. A simple Web search should suffice.

harimau:

“Vajpayee is just another politician. Even if he wants to do good, he needs to pander to the public to get elected. We don`t know that he liked or disliked doing what he did (receiving the pillar for the temple) but some political calculation always enters into such a decision: not receiving it would alienate some people and receiving it will alienate another group. The lure of power is very strong indeed and it would take a saint to walk away from the throne of power.”

…it’s the easy way out to say that’s politics and brush it aside…

“You are young and idealistic. As the years go by, you are likely to find your faith in the goodness of people, in humanity, shaken and shaken violently by events such as the Gujarat riots. But don`t lose your faith in the common man. Don`t lose your idealism. Don`t turn cynical even as you question what you see around you. In your daily life, commit random acts of kindness and senseless acts of charity to people you don`t know. You will go to your reward in afterlife knowing that you have done your little bit to make the world a slightly better place.”

…careful….is that your slip showing?…;)

Reply to Roohi

“Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me?”

MAAAAAAAAAAAATE! And, of course, MAIN KYA JEEEEEE! I think that makes three of us so far (you, Subroto and myself.)

“Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?”

Sydney. (There are other cities in this country? Really?) Actually I lived in the US before moving here. Aap aur Mr R kahan hain?

“Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !”

The plane trip is undoubtedly horrendous, but isn’t it worth it when you look out of the plane window at dawn and the Australian coastline starts emerging as a thin line on the horizon, and as you get closer and the light increases you start seeing white beaches and (depending on the weather) you look down and notice the waves, and whether they are white topped or not, etc. etc. etc? And you know you are but a brief hour or so away from Godzone and meat pies (optional) and a Hahn Premium (not optional)?

Yes. I am a total convert. (I guess convict culture agrees with me.) I also actually like the accent…(though those Kiwis, I hefta saiy…ok, here’s a Kiwi joke for you: Where does a chickout chuck work in Auckland? Let’s see if your Ostrayan is still functional.)

Onya, etc.

dost-mittar #448 Thanks for the reassurance on my not being a mullah (I was getting worried, and was afraid to look at the mirror in case I see a one eyed full bearded mullah omar staring back). On your question: ``if Ahmadis feel better saying that they are Muslims, ``twaada kee jaandaai``?``: Never called Ahmadis non-muslims, never will. If someone calls himself a muslim that is fine with me and I will call him a muslim too, and since Ahmedis consider themselves muslim, I call them muslims. I made this clear early in the discussion with the Ahmedi gentleman (brother sattar2). I have a right to interpret the Quran per my judgement, but that right does not extend to denying anyone else the same right by declaring him a non-muslim.

Furthermore, if someone considers himself a christian I will consider him a christian without requiring him to answer a multiple choice exam on the new testament. If someone considers himself a hindu or a sikh or a jew or just plain human-person that is fine too. No tests required. Nor are muslims a ``chosen people`` - their actions will be judged as much as the actions of people of other faiths. This is the clear and central message in the Quran, and one that is conveniently ignored by the extremists. I am not too familiar with other religions, but I doubt if there is a religion on earth that supports the chauvinistic views of the extremists in that religion. And I doubt if there is anything in the hindu scripts based on which these hindu extremists you mention demand sikhs to consider themselves hindus.

re: naqshabandi

{{except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword; it is known that it was the great sufis who converted most of the pagans in the subcontinent to Islam and salvation. Hazrat Sultan al Hind Khwaja Gharib Nawaz Ajmeri rahmatullah alayhi himself converted 90 lakh kafirs to Islam! Subhan Allah.}}

....yes, and NASA staged the landing on the moon in a Universal Studios set in Hollywood...

re: harimau

{I have lived and worked with people of all religions both in India and here. My family in India has had a Muslim as a full-time employee for the last 4 years. Yusuf pops off to the garage periodically to offer namaz while my Mom is clanging the bell during her puja and they seem not to have any problems with each other`s religious practices.}

i don`t doubt any of that...i was just referring to the patronizing (hence, corny) tone of your post to semipreciousme...

Harimou

``As the years go by, you are likely to find your faith in the goodness of people, in humanity, shaken and shaken violently by events such as the Gujarat riots. But don`t lose your faith in the common man. Don`t lose your idealism. Don`t turn cynical even as you question what you see around you. In your daily life, commit random acts of kindness and senseless acts of charity to people you don`t know. You will go to your reward in afterlife knowing that you have done your little bit to make the world a slightly better place.

``

I would hazard a guess that you are perhaps this way in your real life :-). As they say, it is better to love and get hurt than to have never loved at all. Idealism needs to be nurtured; it is the only agent of change towards a better society. Our heroes should be unsung people who do their ``Karma`` without aspiring for its fruits. An honest police officer here, a dedicated administrator there, or an incorruptible judge make all the difference. These random instances of truthfullness,honesty,and adherence to values restore people`s faith in the vision of a better world. The vision may be an illusion, but it is worth pursuing.

Sincerely

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Naqsh to sax:

``except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword``

Ha .. Ha ha ... Ha... Ha ha ha ha ha ha... ha ha ... haaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa haa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... Ok I have stomach cramps now...

And this coming from someone who appreciating the Indian Musli Asif k`s call to Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhammad bin Qasim

Zafar #430

Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me? Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?

Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !

Alpha,

I have read many Indian Muslim authors bemoan the loss of Muslim Intelligentsia when Pakistan was formed. If the best of Muslims were these in my country, I can only imagine how pathetically ignorant Indian Muslims must be.

Naqshbandi`s hallucinations:

``ylh i wish you would stop spreading the lie that ALL religious scholars were against JInnah; yes the DEOBANDIS did call him ``kafir e azam`` but it is an historic fact which you can check up that the BARELVI ulama and masses SUPPORTED Quaid e Azam and the Pakistan movement``

Questions:

1) Was Majlis e Ahrar `Deobandi`?

2) Was Jamaat e Islami `Deobandi`?

3) Was Ataullah Shah Bukhari of Dehli `Deobandi`?

4) Was Abu al Kalaam Azad `Deobandi`?

``AND Barelvis make up the VAST majority of Sunni Muslims in the Subcontinent. In fact without the support which many pirs with hundreds of thousands of murids gave to Jinnah throughout the length and breadth of United India Pakistan would never have come into existence.``

Pakistan Movement perhaps benefitted the most from two people after Jinnah, 1) Sir Zafrullah Khan 2) Sir Sultan Muhammad Agha Khan

a)Zafrullah Khan was an Ahmadi Muslim.

b)Sir Sultan Muhammad Agha Khan was an Ismaili Shiite.

c) Jinnah himself was a Khoja Shiite who had converted to 12er Shiism in the early 1920s. Frankly he didn`t give two hoots about any sectarian divisions whatsoever. Infact Poonawallah a few months back actually quoted Jinnah showing disdain for the Sunni religion as Arab imperialism.

You can make up these stories but the fact is that the Muslim masses unanimously rejected the Mullahs of Ahrar, JI, JUH and Congress choosing the Aligarh Westernists being led by a clean shaven well dressed whisky drinking swine eating London trained barrister instead, and you can`t live with that.

By the way Jinnah himself credited the creation of Pakistan to his type writer. So please give up these hallucinations of Pirs and Murids who really didn`t count much in the creation of Pakistan.

Alpha Hussain,

Given the other nonsensical BS you have spouted on this board, I didn`t expect you to like Jinnah. Your kind the deobandi ulema were always against that great man... However, Viceroy Wavell reported to the India Office in 1946 rightly or wrongly `99% of the Muslims today follow Jinnah and are suspicious of the Congress`. And this man had a very unfavorable view of Jinnah.

Godot,You are absolutely right. Thankyou :)