Riots
Farzana Versey March 6, 2002
#520 Posted by DRUMZ on March 23, 2002 9:01:05 pm
Asif: There`s no need for that. I wouldnt mention this sh1t to anyone. You`re vibe seems different, like uv trained yourself to approach certain things in a certain manner. Its that part of you that im speaking to (your religious beliefs need to be refined A lot).
As for the rudeness, u know about the field beyond right and wrong... Take this as an opportunity to see things in a different manner. (What iz a better means of correcting a person, a phrase or a punch? Depends on context indeed, yet one is more memorable generally).
That u train your thoughts is obvious. I dono what ur teacher has prescribed but train your actions/physical body as well. This will give u more will power, enabling yourself to see things more clearly. Watch how ur senses react to stimulus. Lay in a tub of cold water and concentrate on not shivering, these things help a great deal. peace.
As for the rudeness, u know about the field beyond right and wrong... Take this as an opportunity to see things in a different manner. (What iz a better means of correcting a person, a phrase or a punch? Depends on context indeed, yet one is more memorable generally).
That u train your thoughts is obvious. I dono what ur teacher has prescribed but train your actions/physical body as well. This will give u more will power, enabling yourself to see things more clearly. Watch how ur senses react to stimulus. Lay in a tub of cold water and concentrate on not shivering, these things help a great deal. peace.
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#518 Posted by shammi on March 23, 2002 9:01:05 pm
Re: Al1
``...On the contrary, BJP will sweep the elections in Gujarat if held today...``
That is what I hear, and that is possibly why the Opposition is not demanding a dismissal of the Gujarat government and imposition of President`s rule. However, I feel that the BJP has lost out in the other states. I, too, heard a political commentator (who happened to be Muslim) state that since BJP`s marginalization has begun, the Hindutva diehards will ensure that if the government has to fall (the likelihood of which has now gone up), it should fall on the mandir/masjid issue. The logic being that the next election will then be contested on this issue.
``...On the contrary, BJP will sweep the elections in Gujarat if held today...``
That is what I hear, and that is possibly why the Opposition is not demanding a dismissal of the Gujarat government and imposition of President`s rule. However, I feel that the BJP has lost out in the other states. I, too, heard a political commentator (who happened to be Muslim) state that since BJP`s marginalization has begun, the Hindutva diehards will ensure that if the government has to fall (the likelihood of which has now gone up), it should fall on the mandir/masjid issue. The logic being that the next election will then be contested on this issue.
#517 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 23, 2002 4:04:09 pm
drumz--i apologise for misunderstanding your words. I thought u were being rude! Yes, to only speak when you are spoken is a great bit of advice. Indeed I am not ready.
A famous Sufi maxim (which may be from a hadith sharif but i am not sure) is ``sleep little, eat little, speak little``.
:-)
May Allah give us the tawfiq to act on this beautiful advice. amin!
A famous Sufi maxim (which may be from a hadith sharif but i am not sure) is ``sleep little, eat little, speak little``.
:-)
May Allah give us the tawfiq to act on this beautiful advice. amin!
#516 Posted by veeresh on March 23, 2002 1:24:43 pm
Just wondering, would it matter if I was killed spontaneously or after specific considered planning?
The truth is very simple: we kill for petty commerce and we justify it as religion.
#515 Posted by hobbyty on March 23, 2002 1:24:43 pm
YLH
``Every Muslim should be His Own Priest`` Jinnah
Way to go! Not only is this the truth about being a Muslim, it is also has far reaching personal and societal consequences, especially with regard to Justice and social change. It ensures a direct connection of faith, it guards against demagogues who may mislead persons. It ensures Islam remains ``alive`` and relevent.
#514 Posted by ali1 on March 23, 2002 1:24:43 pm
Reply # 528 shammi
[``...Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them ...``
Yes, now it is quite clear to me, and hopefully to many voters as well. I hope that this realization results in the marginalization of the Hindutva politics, if not the defeat of the BJP.]
On the contrary, BJP will sweep the elections in Gujarat if held today... if most Indian commentators are to be believed. Such is the nature of the intolerant hindu beast. All they (BJP) need to do to win India wide is to conduct this genocide India wide. Simple!
[``...Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them ...``
Yes, now it is quite clear to me, and hopefully to many voters as well. I hope that this realization results in the marginalization of the Hindutva politics, if not the defeat of the BJP.]
On the contrary, BJP will sweep the elections in Gujarat if held today... if most Indian commentators are to be believed. Such is the nature of the intolerant hindu beast. All they (BJP) need to do to win India wide is to conduct this genocide India wide. Simple!
#513 Posted by shammi on March 23, 2002 1:24:43 pm
Re: Dost
``...Because that would imply that the people who were behind the riots in Ahmedabad were also behind the riots in Godhra...``
Not necessarily. The response to Godhara appears to be pre-planned (there is simply too much organization that went into preparing lists, coordinating `attacks`, etc. to ignore this). Godhara was a spark (and in that respect, any spark would have been sufficient).
``...Because that would imply that the people who were behind the riots in Ahmedabad were also behind the riots in Godhra...``
Not necessarily. The response to Godhara appears to be pre-planned (there is simply too much organization that went into preparing lists, coordinating `attacks`, etc. to ignore this). Godhara was a spark (and in that respect, any spark would have been sufficient).
#512 Posted by DRUMZ on March 23, 2002 10:35:33 am
Asif: You took something written and created a new context for it. ``Speak when you are spoken to`` etc means that one should not go out of his way to speak, and he should only address the question being asked. That u arent ready yet is true, the POINT was to take the opportunity as a means to ready yourself.
It woulda come off better if u didnt think in western terms (that im attacking ur ego).
It woulda come off better if u didnt think in western terms (that im attacking ur ego).
#511 Posted by shammi on March 23, 2002 10:35:33 am
Re: Zafar Al-Talib
``...Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them ...``
Zafarji:
Yes, now it is quite clear to me, and hopefully to many voters as well. I hope that this realization results in the marginalization of the Hindutva politics, if not the defeat of the BJP. The press has played an incredible role in this, IMHO. If I had to depend solely on the print, English medium publications, I would have received the same sterile stories with no apportioning of blame. Now, with the Web (and TV news channels) it is hard to hide.
``...Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them ...``
Zafarji:
Yes, now it is quite clear to me, and hopefully to many voters as well. I hope that this realization results in the marginalization of the Hindutva politics, if not the defeat of the BJP. The press has played an incredible role in this, IMHO. If I had to depend solely on the print, English medium publications, I would have received the same sterile stories with no apportioning of blame. Now, with the Web (and TV news channels) it is hard to hide.
#508 Posted by ZafarA on March 22, 2002 8:33:03 pm
Reply Shammi #523
The organised targetting of minorities also occured in 92 and in 84 - certainly in the Bombay riots many Muslim owned businesses were shaken down for protection money and then, after funds ran out, destroyed.
Perhaps what has happened is that the methodology used by political parties when utilising communal violence has been refined? In the past taking down the name plate on one`s door could avert disaster (many Muslims in Bombay did that, including my relatives - suggested and assisted by the housing society) - hence the preparation of lists in Gujarat.
While this is horrifying, it is also why, IMO, there is such widespread revulsion at what happened in Gujarat. Previously it was possible to believe that riots were spontaneous, and hence an authentic response to events. (A route taken by people who while themselves nonviolent harboured unstated, and unexamined prejudices which assumed provocation by minorities.)
Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them - for the first time middle class India of every religion feels that it`s way of life is threatened by them.
Re: the ulema. There is no universally accepted temporal authority which certifies the sunni ulema. What makes functionally qualifies as a member of the ulema is general acceptance of one`s religious knowledge as authorotative. I believe that the situation among shias (certainly in Iran) is different. Being a student of a member of a well known, and respected, school, is one way this happens. If you`ve followed Tahmed`s comments on this, this is part of the game plan - no intermediaries (of course the ulema don`t like that much, diminishes their importance).
On a segue: neither the VHP nor the BMAC, MPLM and other such luminaries are elected - doesn`t stop them from speaking ``for`` a lot of us. Something is rotten about this.
Cheers
Zafar
The organised targetting of minorities also occured in 92 and in 84 - certainly in the Bombay riots many Muslim owned businesses were shaken down for protection money and then, after funds ran out, destroyed.
Perhaps what has happened is that the methodology used by political parties when utilising communal violence has been refined? In the past taking down the name plate on one`s door could avert disaster (many Muslims in Bombay did that, including my relatives - suggested and assisted by the housing society) - hence the preparation of lists in Gujarat.
While this is horrifying, it is also why, IMO, there is such widespread revulsion at what happened in Gujarat. Previously it was possible to believe that riots were spontaneous, and hence an authentic response to events. (A route taken by people who while themselves nonviolent harboured unstated, and unexamined prejudices which assumed provocation by minorities.)
Now it`s become clear that they are FAR from spontaneous, and that the State is involved in them - for the first time middle class India of every religion feels that it`s way of life is threatened by them.
Re: the ulema. There is no universally accepted temporal authority which certifies the sunni ulema. What makes functionally qualifies as a member of the ulema is general acceptance of one`s religious knowledge as authorotative. I believe that the situation among shias (certainly in Iran) is different. Being a student of a member of a well known, and respected, school, is one way this happens. If you`ve followed Tahmed`s comments on this, this is part of the game plan - no intermediaries (of course the ulema don`t like that much, diminishes their importance).
On a segue: neither the VHP nor the BMAC, MPLM and other such luminaries are elected - doesn`t stop them from speaking ``for`` a lot of us. Something is rotten about this.
Cheers
Zafar
#507 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 22, 2002 8:33:03 pm
sattar2,
Insha Allah I will try to find out for you. Or you can email me at naqshbandijamaati@yahoo.com if you like.
Watch this space..
* * * * * *
drumz, --don`t talk to me in that tone! ``speak when you are spoken to!`` as you put it. I am not a pupil in your class. I will NOT discuss this matter further in public simply because I am not ready yet spiritually for such elevated and delicate matters and *if you are * then you would already know the answers and if you are not then what is the point of wasting your and my time?
Insha Allah I will try to find out for you. Or you can email me at naqshbandijamaati@yahoo.com if you like.
Watch this space..
* * * * * *
drumz, --don`t talk to me in that tone! ``speak when you are spoken to!`` as you put it. I am not a pupil in your class. I will NOT discuss this matter further in public simply because I am not ready yet spiritually for such elevated and delicate matters and *if you are * then you would already know the answers and if you are not then what is the point of wasting your and my time?
#506 Posted by shammi on March 22, 2002 7:16:17 pm
Re: Zafar Al-Talib
``...But then how to explain Gujarat? Including Godhra? ...``
That is a tall order (how can ANYBODY explain this madness?), but I will give it a try. Maybe I am completely off base.
Gujarat was very different than previous communal violence in India. At the risk of a gross generalization, past communal riots were spontaneous (over often trivial matters) and were not pre-planned to the extent that the Gujarat violence was -- which was the first of its kind. It is now becoming clear that the mob violence in Ahmedabad was carefully planned weeks, if not months, ago. Muslim shops/businesses/houses were surgically attacked. This required an organization (now it is national -- VHP/Bajrang Dal, and elements of BJP) behind it, and this was missing in previous flare-ups. Thus, given this backdrop, it is possible that animus at the individual level might have reduced (and that is perhaps why the last 10 years prior to Gujarat were remarkably quiet), but a new threat has emerged -- nationally organized communalism that could unfortunately, successfully counter the growing integration of the communities in urban areas. In assessing this threat, Tavleen Singh is correct.
``...But then how to explain Gujarat? Including Godhra? ...``
That is a tall order (how can ANYBODY explain this madness?), but I will give it a try. Maybe I am completely off base.
Gujarat was very different than previous communal violence in India. At the risk of a gross generalization, past communal riots were spontaneous (over often trivial matters) and were not pre-planned to the extent that the Gujarat violence was -- which was the first of its kind. It is now becoming clear that the mob violence in Ahmedabad was carefully planned weeks, if not months, ago. Muslim shops/businesses/houses were surgically attacked. This required an organization (now it is national -- VHP/Bajrang Dal, and elements of BJP) behind it, and this was missing in previous flare-ups. Thus, given this backdrop, it is possible that animus at the individual level might have reduced (and that is perhaps why the last 10 years prior to Gujarat were remarkably quiet), but a new threat has emerged -- nationally organized communalism that could unfortunately, successfully counter the growing integration of the communities in urban areas. In assessing this threat, Tavleen Singh is correct.
#505 Posted by Pankaj on March 22, 2002 7:16:17 pm
Zafar
``Kaa kahath dudeva? Hamar spookeva (insert appropriate Mallika Pukhraj dadra line here. Khabariya na le is not appropriate.)
``
Zafar, you a UPite!!!
``Kaa kahath dudeva? Hamar spookeva (insert appropriate Mallika Pukhraj dadra line here. Khabariya na le is not appropriate.)
``
Zafar, you a UPite!!!
#504 Posted by audio-video-rad on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
SameerJB #142 you write ``, you are absolutely right about shortage of Punjabi liberal males compared to Urdu speaking males. It is sad. This is the nature of Punjab.``
Your shameless ethnic chauvinism is of course factually unfounded. All such smug little generalizations shed light on is your own petty, narrow-minded way of thinking.
Your shameless ethnic chauvinism is of course factually unfounded. All such smug little generalizations shed light on is your own petty, narrow-minded way of thinking.
#503 Posted by audio-video-rad on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
re saminashah #129:
feminazis have obviously upgraded and diversified. I was probably stuck with imitations of the real thing or I need to get out more :)
Waiting with baited breath for your Real man list.....
later
-sac
feminazis have obviously upgraded and diversified. I was probably stuck with imitations of the real thing or I need to get out more :)
Waiting with baited breath for your Real man list.....
later
-sac
#502 Posted by ylh on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
`Every Muslim should be His Own Priest`
Mohammed Ali Jinnah
#501 Posted by ylh on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Asif Naqshbandi
The men you have mentioned as `heretics` are the real true Muslims, in the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) . You .. you are nothing but a pathetic bigoted fool, who belongs to the same creed as Pagan Quresh.
Go to hell.
The men you have mentioned as `heretics` are the real true Muslims, in the image of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) . You .. you are nothing but a pathetic bigoted fool, who belongs to the same creed as Pagan Quresh.
Go to hell.
#500 Posted by ZafarA on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Reply Shammi # 495
“It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days).”
Shammiji, I have a feeling that you’re talking about and very specific slice of Delhi, where attitudes are much more relaxed about creed, caste etc. than in some other places – and where, consequently, a lot more mil jol happens.
“The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid.”
Very possibly. He’s up there with the best when it comes to cutting his coat to the cloth of popular opinions.
“I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.”
I don’t know that Pakistan had all that much to do with it, though the birth of Bangladesh certainly put paid to the TNT in many people’s minds. IMHO it’s a combination of a generation growing up in post-Partition India – more confident and certainly less apologetic, perhaps even demanding - and also the gradual decrease of religion as a definer in many of the metros. But I agree that it’s a synergistic thing, with Hindu and Muslim “tolerance” (for want of a better word) a benevolent cycle.
But then how to explain Gujarat? Including Godhra? Is Gujarat an exception? How many Indias are there, and are they a function of more than just physical geography? (I think that class IS a factor – your father seeing less bigotry and more integration is accurate for succesful urban Punjabi culture – but what about the rest?) Which of these Indias does the BJP et al represent? What about the Indian Muslim League?
Tavleen Singh in her column in India Today said it really well. (Paraphrasing) We thought we had beaten communalism, that we had outgrown it, we really did. Gujarat really shows that this can’t “just” happen with good governance and decent economic policies. It needs more from us, and it’s beginning to be apparent what.
Regards
“It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days).”
Shammiji, I have a feeling that you’re talking about and very specific slice of Delhi, where attitudes are much more relaxed about creed, caste etc. than in some other places – and where, consequently, a lot more mil jol happens.
“The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid.”
Very possibly. He’s up there with the best when it comes to cutting his coat to the cloth of popular opinions.
“I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.”
I don’t know that Pakistan had all that much to do with it, though the birth of Bangladesh certainly put paid to the TNT in many people’s minds. IMHO it’s a combination of a generation growing up in post-Partition India – more confident and certainly less apologetic, perhaps even demanding - and also the gradual decrease of religion as a definer in many of the metros. But I agree that it’s a synergistic thing, with Hindu and Muslim “tolerance” (for want of a better word) a benevolent cycle.
But then how to explain Gujarat? Including Godhra? Is Gujarat an exception? How many Indias are there, and are they a function of more than just physical geography? (I think that class IS a factor – your father seeing less bigotry and more integration is accurate for succesful urban Punjabi culture – but what about the rest?) Which of these Indias does the BJP et al represent? What about the Indian Muslim League?
Tavleen Singh in her column in India Today said it really well. (Paraphrasing) We thought we had beaten communalism, that we had outgrown it, we really did. Gujarat really shows that this can’t “just” happen with good governance and decent economic policies. It needs more from us, and it’s beginning to be apparent what.
Regards
#499 Posted by ZafarA on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Reply Roohi # 499
“Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby.”
Entirely justifiable. Much better game. (And don’t even mention Rugby Union…)
“No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!”
Aussie Dollar still cheap!!! Do it now!!!!!
Hey, are you or your pitaji familiar with Brisvaani? Our Mr Subrotoda is involved and has his own show (I think). See how talented Chowk Vaalaas are!
“Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby.”
Entirely justifiable. Much better game. (And don’t even mention Rugby Union…)
“No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!”
Aussie Dollar still cheap!!! Do it now!!!!!
Hey, are you or your pitaji familiar with Brisvaani? Our Mr Subrotoda is involved and has his own show (I think). See how talented Chowk Vaalaas are!
#498 Posted by ZafarA on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Reply Prem # 501
“Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.”
Entirely believable, no?
“But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..’
Oops. I knew that I’d get hauled onto the carpet as soon as I posted that…
“Our spooks ARE better than theirs.”
Kaa kahath dudeva? Hamar spookeva (insert appropriate Mallika Pukhraj dadra line here. Khabariya na le is not appropriate.)
“Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.”
Entirely believable, no?
“But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..’
Oops. I knew that I’d get hauled onto the carpet as soon as I posted that…
“Our spooks ARE better than theirs.”
Kaa kahath dudeva? Hamar spookeva (insert appropriate Mallika Pukhraj dadra line here. Khabariya na le is not appropriate.)
#497 Posted by ZafarA on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Reply Harimau # 508
“Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?”
That’s a vicious rumour!!!…er, ok, yes they do, but Mansion has a strict door policy so I didn’t see any of them even trying. Melbourne is famous for this.
Actually there is a colony of dwarf penguins that lives in the bay at Melbourne. Permanently.
“Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?”
That’s a vicious rumour!!!…er, ok, yes they do, but Mansion has a strict door policy so I didn’t see any of them even trying. Melbourne is famous for this.
Actually there is a colony of dwarf penguins that lives in the bay at Melbourne. Permanently.
#496 Posted by subroto on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Re Roohi # 499
``please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !``
Will do madam, these eyes can identify faujis in a 5 km radius so will be on the lookout.
Vaise if you want to listen to Brisbane`s hindi radio station on the web, try www.brisvaani.com
Why not get a request played for your loved ones in Brisvegas?
``please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !``
Will do madam, these eyes can identify faujis in a 5 km radius so will be on the lookout.
Vaise if you want to listen to Brisbane`s hindi radio station on the web, try www.brisvaani.com
Why not get a request played for your loved ones in Brisvegas?
#495 Posted by DRUMZ on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Asif: The simplest thing we can get from khidr is to know that we don`t always know exactly who we`re dealing with. For this reason, one should bring her best to the table. Don`t assume ur talking to a novice. I didnt ask for quotes (speak when spoken to, and on the said topic only). If i wanted the collective opinion of sufism, i woulda asked for it.
You`re responses are too western. Dont quote anything, just relax, feel free and say whats on ur mind. And PLEASE think deeply about each line u write.
It does not matter whether the truth is said. It still remains true. That hallaj said it outloud is irrelevent. He said something that is true, yet against sharia. Further, there are many more examples of sufi`s diverging from sharia and following inner truths. Sharia was an exmaple of outward islam, u should know what muhammed passed on to his family. Such interpretation puts life in a dead book (quran).
``I do not wish to discuss this any more as it is not only pointless but dangerous too (spiritually speaking) for us to debate the subtleties of the Masters when we are not worthy to mention their names!``
Message not messenger. Masters are not relevant to the idea being raised. And as one trains to decrease his ego, he should also train to remain HONEST. Im not worthy of mentioing Rumi`s name??? Dont over emphasize (and change) a point to the degree that you begin speaking for a deceased master. (ie would rumi agree with your stance?). Humbility without honesty is as worse as arrogance without control.
And this IZ worth discussing, far more then anything else on this thread.
You`re responses are too western. Dont quote anything, just relax, feel free and say whats on ur mind. And PLEASE think deeply about each line u write.
It does not matter whether the truth is said. It still remains true. That hallaj said it outloud is irrelevent. He said something that is true, yet against sharia. Further, there are many more examples of sufi`s diverging from sharia and following inner truths. Sharia was an exmaple of outward islam, u should know what muhammed passed on to his family. Such interpretation puts life in a dead book (quran).
``I do not wish to discuss this any more as it is not only pointless but dangerous too (spiritually speaking) for us to debate the subtleties of the Masters when we are not worthy to mention their names!``
Message not messenger. Masters are not relevant to the idea being raised. And as one trains to decrease his ego, he should also train to remain HONEST. Im not worthy of mentioing Rumi`s name??? Dont over emphasize (and change) a point to the degree that you begin speaking for a deceased master. (ie would rumi agree with your stance?). Humbility without honesty is as worse as arrogance without control.
And this IZ worth discussing, far more then anything else on this thread.
#494 Posted by sattar2 on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Asif Naqshbandi Sahib,
If you can, please clarify this issue … do some of the scholars you derive guidance from (e.g. Barelvi/Jamiaat scholars or other sunni scholars) believe that some verses of Quran are now abrogated?
Your insightful comments will be much appreciated.
Regards
Asad
If you can, please clarify this issue … do some of the scholars you derive guidance from (e.g. Barelvi/Jamiaat scholars or other sunni scholars) believe that some verses of Quran are now abrogated?
Your insightful comments will be much appreciated.
Regards
Asad
#493 Posted by shammi on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Re: Naqshbandi
``...Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never!...``
That was a clever attempt, but it failed to convice me. What you omitted was the fact that while medical doctors are certified in an open process that involves publicly adminstered examinations (and keeps the quacks out), is there a similar process for appointing the ulema? Or are they self-appointed by their chamchas?
``...Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never!...``
That was a clever attempt, but it failed to convice me. What you omitted was the fact that while medical doctors are certified in an open process that involves publicly adminstered examinations (and keeps the quacks out), is there a similar process for appointing the ulema? Or are they self-appointed by their chamchas?
#492 Posted by Raw_Dust on March 22, 2002 12:58:11 pm
Attn: Naqshbandi Sahib.
Or any other Chowk`s leading poster for that matter (TAhmed,Urstruly,YLH,Prem,hamidm,saminashah etc.)
Could you please check out my last post on this thread.
Thanks.
Or any other Chowk`s leading poster for that matter (TAhmed,Urstruly,YLH,Prem,hamidm,saminashah etc.)
Could you please check out my last post on this thread.
Thanks.
#491 Posted by harimau on March 21, 2002 5:42:10 pm
Ref Zafar Al-Talib #: 489
[I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…]
Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?
[I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…]
Don`t penguins move to Melbourne for Christmas because their usual home (the Antarctic) is too warm?
#490 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 21, 2002 5:42:10 pm
YLH
From your last post which was filled from top to bottom with insults and complete ignorance of Islam and its history [in short you want to make Islam fit your own ignorant and limited ideas which are just basic imitations of modern secularism; there have been many such heretix like you before; Ahmed Khan AligaRi, Ataput, Abduh, etc. etc.] i give notice that i will no longer interact with you on this forum; you hold the words and actions of Jinnah above those of the Beloved Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) as I said in my last post which you conveniently ignored. In the Madinan State Shariah Law was followed and applied. Jizya was taken from the non-Muslims, adulterers were stoned to death, thieves hands were cut, the complete Islamic system was in place and all this happened in the lifetime of Allah`s Perfect and Infallible Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and was continued by his righteous successors. If you cannot stomach that, who cares! Go and join your Ataturk! And please don`t bother replying to me anymore as you are not interested in learning but in insulting Islam and its beautiful Law.
Allah`s Curse be on the liars!
* * * * *
If anyone else on this forum wishes to discuss with me in a civilised way I will be happy to try my best.
* * * * * *
shammi -- no I do not follow the Koran based on my own understanding. For the non-mujtahid, taqlid [following qualified scholarship] is wajib as Allah`s says in the Qur`an in Surah Fatiha: Guide me on the path of those You have favoured. and also in another surah ``If you do not know, ASK those who know`` and also ``Follow Allah and His Messenger AND THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONGST YOU.``
Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never! In the same way we do not follow our own whims and fancies and must take the deen from those who know--those on the same way as that of Allah`s Messenger and His Companions.
For good articles on taqlid and its importance please see www.masud.com as it explains everything much better than I from learned ulamah and shaykhs.
From your last post which was filled from top to bottom with insults and complete ignorance of Islam and its history [in short you want to make Islam fit your own ignorant and limited ideas which are just basic imitations of modern secularism; there have been many such heretix like you before; Ahmed Khan AligaRi, Ataput, Abduh, etc. etc.] i give notice that i will no longer interact with you on this forum; you hold the words and actions of Jinnah above those of the Beloved Messenger (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) as I said in my last post which you conveniently ignored. In the Madinan State Shariah Law was followed and applied. Jizya was taken from the non-Muslims, adulterers were stoned to death, thieves hands were cut, the complete Islamic system was in place and all this happened in the lifetime of Allah`s Perfect and Infallible Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and was continued by his righteous successors. If you cannot stomach that, who cares! Go and join your Ataturk! And please don`t bother replying to me anymore as you are not interested in learning but in insulting Islam and its beautiful Law.
Allah`s Curse be on the liars!
* * * * *
If anyone else on this forum wishes to discuss with me in a civilised way I will be happy to try my best.
* * * * * *
shammi -- no I do not follow the Koran based on my own understanding. For the non-mujtahid, taqlid [following qualified scholarship] is wajib as Allah`s says in the Qur`an in Surah Fatiha: Guide me on the path of those You have favoured. and also in another surah ``If you do not know, ASK those who know`` and also ``Follow Allah and His Messenger AND THOSE IN AUTHORITY AMONGST YOU.``
Would you allow someone who had never been to med school and just read a book on surgery to operate on you? Never! In the same way we do not follow our own whims and fancies and must take the deen from those who know--those on the same way as that of Allah`s Messenger and His Companions.
For good articles on taqlid and its importance please see www.masud.com as it explains everything much better than I from learned ulamah and shaykhs.
#489 Posted by AAmir on March 21, 2002 5:42:10 pm
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#488 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 21, 2002 1:54:03 pm
DRUMZ wrote (sorry i missed your post first time
``It speaks volumes that a sufi would say that, yet support a law which has itself killed numerous sufis. There are serious problems in what u say. Your outlook speaks of introspection, yet your beliefs are tarnished with fear and cowardice. U need to balance yourself. Think before u speak and dont say anything u dont TRUELY believe in. Unless ur not balanced on this world and the next, stable, nuetral, intense and ready to die, your not worth anyone`s time.``
If you are referring to Shar`iah Law then know that all of the great Sufis have always stressed the importance of Shariah in Sufism and that there is NO sufism or spiritual experiences outside Shar`iah. As the great Shaykh al Akbar Ibn Arabi said that we examine all our hals and spiritual states and karamats in the light of Shar`iah and if any of them are against the Shar`iah by even a hairbreadth we reject them!
As to why a few great sufis, such as Hallaj, were killed under Shar`iah--that is a subtle point which the Sufi masters have discussed but it is not to be divulged to anyone; Rumi said that Hallaj achieved ma`arifah [gnosis], Love of Allah but he was not able to handle it and in his ecstasy divulged a Divine Secret which he was not supposed to and so Allah caused him to be martyred by His Law. It was another great Sufi al-Junayd-one of the spiritual masters of Hallaj (may Allah sanctify all their secrets!) who signed the death-warrant of Hallaj--although he changed into the garb of a judge before doing that! These are subtle matters but suffice it to say that their is NO contradiction between shar`ia and authentic sufism: on the other hand you get jahil faqirs who commit all sorts of unislamic acts under the pretext of Sufism and these people are rejected most harshly of all by the authentic Sufis themselves. I do not wish to discuss this any more as it is not only pointless but dangerous too (spiritually speaking) for us to debate the subtleties of the Masters when we are not worthy to mention their names!
But let me assure you that I always write what i truly believe; and as for my spiritual teacher alhamdulillah he is a True Master and a genuine Sufi and I have pledged my life and soul to him and do not need to change teachers!
As for the bit about wasting time on Chowk on pointless discussions and spending more time on self-purification I agree with you totally and thank you for that good advice. I come to Chowk for a bit of light relief and entertainment. That`s all. And sometimes I learn things too.
A final quote from that great Sufi Rumi to END this discussion about Sufism with you. I hope you too will take it on board insha Allah:
The Master from Konya says:
I am the slave of the Koran
While I still have life.
I am the dust on the path of Muhammad,
The Chosen One.
If anyone interprets my words
In any other way,
I deplore that person,
And I deplore his words.
-mawlana jalaluddin al-rumi
And I end with a quote from the Sufi who by consensus of the Sufis themselves is the Greatest Sufi and the Sultan al Awliya:
Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani said:
``Anyone who does not follow the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), taking his Law [shari`a] in one hand and the Book that was revealed to him in the other hand, and who does not attain to by his path [tariq] to Allah (Almighty and Glorious is He), will perish and perish, will go astray and go astray. They are two guides to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He). The Qur`an is your guide to the Lord of Truth (Almighty and Glorious is He), and the Sunna is your guide to the Messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace).
O Allah, cause a separation between us and our lower selves [nufus], and:
Give us in this world good, and good in the hereafter, and guard us against the torment of the fire. [Qur`an 2:201] ``
From Shaykh Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani, ``The Sublime Revelation`` [Al-Fath ar-Rabbani], translated by Muhtar Holland (Published by Al-Baz Publishing, Houston, Texas, 1992). The quote is from the end of the twenty-fifth discourse, p. 182.
#487 Posted by ylh on March 21, 2002 1:54:03 pm
Naqshbandi,
First one of the major reasons Jinnah fell out with Gandhi was Gandhi`s unjustified support for the stupid Khilafat. So my claim is not just a claim but a fact. Another fact is that both Iqbal and Jinnah stayed miles away from the Khilafat movement ... which they considered to be stupid and idiotic.
Listen carefuly. I have tolerated your hijacking of my pristine faith for long now,... You are not a Muslim, you the exact opposite of a Muslim, and I won`t even insult Kafirs by saying that you are a Kafir... You are my little naive pos, `an Un-Muslim`. I think I know 100 times more about Islam than you do... and this is also not a mere claim, but this is a fact. People like you have hijacked Islam for many centuries now. You don`t what you are talking about... the difference between the likes of you and those who threw stones at the Holy Prophet at Taif is that they did in the name of Deen e Ibrahimi, and you do your nonsense in the name of Nizam e Mustafa. They didn`t have anything to do with `Deen e Ibrahmi` nor do you really have anything to do with the true `Nizam e Mustafa.`
Prophet Muhammad was a realist par excellence. He and his companions acted according to the dictates of Human reason, and it earned them success over all of Arabia. Prophet Muhammad was Sadiq and Amin, his honesty and integrity are the real sunnah of his life. Prophet Muhammad was a genuine military strategist and real politik genius. These are his virtues which are incumbent upon every Muslim to follow (and two only of them in the last century did,.. should I say Ataturk and Jinnah? amazing isn`t it one`s first name was Mustafa and other`s first name was Mohammed) .
Prophet Muhammad didn`t establish Khilafah or any such thing. The title of Khalifah tul Rasool Allah was adopted arbitrarily by Abu Bakr Siddiq, and Umar on the other hand didn`t even fashion himself to be much of a Caliph but rather Ameer ul Momineen and the ruler of Arabian commonwealth.
Your Islam (or should I say `UnIslam`) is a Dogma. My Islam, the True Islam of the Holy Prophet, is an evolving entity. Your Islam ( or should I say `UnIslam) concentrates on the daily actions of the Holy Prophet, how he ate with his hands, and how he bathed, and performed ablution and even how he made love... My Islam, the True Islam of the Holy Prophet, concentrates on his virtues as an Honest man, a statesman, a Law giver and a Leader of men. Your UNIslam is preoccupied with theological BS. My Islam is concerned with the welfare of the people. Your UnIslam is a CHAIN that needs to BROKEN. My Islam is the spirit of Modernity, progress and Humanity. Your UnIslam is IRRATIONAL. My Islam is RATIONAL. Your UnIslam needs clutches of the state to succeed, My Islam is without clutches. Your UnIslam thrives on oppression, My Islam fights oppression. Your UnIslam is backward bigoted and theocratic, My Islam is Forward looking, tolerant and Democratic.
THIS is the DIFFERENCE between you and me, and your unIslam and my ISLAM!
#486 Posted by bong_dongs on March 21, 2002 1:54:03 pm
#494
As far as bride-traffic goes you can add the Parsis too. My dad`s secretary in Bombay married a guy from Karachi (though they live in London now).
(I remember being horrified as a kid to find out that she was ``marrying the enemy`` :-))
As far as bride-traffic goes you can add the Parsis too. My dad`s secretary in Bombay married a guy from Karachi (though they live in London now).
(I remember being horrified as a kid to find out that she was ``marrying the enemy`` :-))
#485 Posted by Prem on March 21, 2002 1:54:03 pm
Zafar, Shammi
`sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)`
Shammi, if that caught your eye, you should check out the ginan literature (particularly its early versions). You will be knocked off your seat, most pleasantly, ofcourse. How long this tradition will survive, I don`t know...but I pray it does.
`sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)`
Shammi, if that caught your eye, you should check out the ginan literature (particularly its early versions). You will be knocked off your seat, most pleasantly, ofcourse. How long this tradition will survive, I don`t know...but I pray it does.
#484 Posted by Prem on March 21, 2002 12:49:43 pm
Zafar,
Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.
But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..
Our spooks ARE better than theirs.
Advani and Sushma as Pakistani agents! No wonder VHP is on a rampage in India...hmmm...now I get it.
But don`t underestimate us UPites. One of our sons is the Pakistani ruler..
Our spooks ARE better than theirs.
#483 Posted by tahmed321 on March 21, 2002 12:47:55 pm
ylh #486: Heh! Heh! Glad to see you are able to take time off from your historic nation-building duties to check out the patriotic paki models on the internet as well. Even Asif N. is able to take his eyes off books written by various hazraat for a minute to check out the khwaateen. Alhamdulillah, as Asif says, and Models Zindabad as you would say.
#482 Posted by bong_dongs on March 21, 2002 12:47:55 pm
#488
Doesnt Musharaff`s uncles family still live in Old Delhi?
Doesnt Musharaff`s uncles family still live in Old Delhi?
#481 Posted by roohi on March 21, 2002 12:47:55 pm
Subroto/Zafar
Good to chat with you guys - you`re making me homesick.
OK I agree about the lousy Melbourne weather - though let me say Boston makes Melbourne look tropical !! That`s why my parents retired in Sunny Brissie and I`m stuck going back there instead of Melbourne where I spent most of MY time in OZ. Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby. Since the Patriots won the Superbowl I must say I have even started catching Football here !
Sobroto, if you really are in Brisbane (Oh to have a Devonshire Tea on Mt. Cootah - much more me than meat pies actually!!) please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !
No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!
Good to chat with you guys - you`re making me homesick.
OK I agree about the lousy Melbourne weather - though let me say Boston makes Melbourne look tropical !! That`s why my parents retired in Sunny Brissie and I`m stuck going back there instead of Melbourne where I spent most of MY time in OZ. Hence the fixation on footy vs rugby. Since the Patriots won the Superbowl I must say I have even started catching Football here !
Sobroto, if you really are in Brisbane (Oh to have a Devonshire Tea on Mt. Cootah - much more me than meat pies actually!!) please watch out for a gora (for an indian),kanji ankhon aur moochwala, taklu, stubborn, opinionated but lovely through and through Unkal Jee probably changing lanes illegally in typical desi fashion on Coronation Drive - for that shall be my Poojya Pitajee - tell him beti number 3 says hello !
No more of this stuff - or I`ll have to buy a ticket to Godzone !!
#479 Posted by shammi on March 21, 2002 12:47:55 pm
Re: Naqshbandi
``.... I am a simple layman and follow the scholars!...``
Not good enough! Should you not follow YOUR OWN interpretation of the Koran as opposed to what someone tells you what they THINK is correct?
``.... I am a simple layman and follow the scholars!...``
Not good enough! Should you not follow YOUR OWN interpretation of the Koran as opposed to what someone tells you what they THINK is correct?
#478 Posted by shammi on March 21, 2002 12:47:55 pm
Re: Zafar Al Talib
This is completely off topic, but it lit a light bulb inside my brain. When you said, `sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)` it became clear to me why, as Punjabi youngsters in Delhi, we used to refer to certain kites that demonstrated perfect aerodynamic characteristics (`patangs, guddis and guddas` for those in the know) as being `sudd` or to be more accurate `suddh`. Ditto for cricket bats. I never understood the meaning until now. Thanks for making a not inconsiderable contribution to me getting better sleep at night!
R: Fuzair
OK - back to the topic
The fact that UP/Mohajir families with in India are under some sort of a cloud (in the Army?) of being suspected of double loyalties is news to me. If true, then it surely must be an irony in the sense that it were the stalwarts from that community that contributed to the formation of Pakistan in no small measure.
I recently had a conversation with my 70 year old father who has spent all his life in Delhi, and interacted with many Muslims in pre-Partition Delhi on the approximate topic (for lack of a better phrase) of `Muslim loyalty` to India. His assessment is that there has been a sea change for the better over the years of how Muslims are perceived by Hindus. It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days). The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid. The current Imam`s father (who I believe was the Imam during Partition) could best be described as an Indian dissident (someone correct me here) who lost no opportunity to distance himself from ANY government in India, and never quite repudiated TNT, thus fuelling suspicions. The current Imam, loses no opportunity to play up his `Indianess` and to remind his flock that their home is India, and that another Partition will not be allowed. Further, these religious leaders have of late reposed greater trust in India`s secular institutions than their Hindu counterparts. I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.
This is completely off topic, but it lit a light bulb inside my brain. When you said, `sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh)` it became clear to me why, as Punjabi youngsters in Delhi, we used to refer to certain kites that demonstrated perfect aerodynamic characteristics (`patangs, guddis and guddas` for those in the know) as being `sudd` or to be more accurate `suddh`. Ditto for cricket bats. I never understood the meaning until now. Thanks for making a not inconsiderable contribution to me getting better sleep at night!
R: Fuzair
OK - back to the topic
The fact that UP/Mohajir families with in India are under some sort of a cloud (in the Army?) of being suspected of double loyalties is news to me. If true, then it surely must be an irony in the sense that it were the stalwarts from that community that contributed to the formation of Pakistan in no small measure.
I recently had a conversation with my 70 year old father who has spent all his life in Delhi, and interacted with many Muslims in pre-Partition Delhi on the approximate topic (for lack of a better phrase) of `Muslim loyalty` to India. His assessment is that there has been a sea change for the better over the years of how Muslims are perceived by Hindus. It is rare (and you have to dig quite deep amongst Partition victims of the previous generation or petty traders that form the bulk of the BJP support base to find a bigot these days). The popular indicator for such a change is the attitudes is the shifting stance of the Shahi Imam Bukhari of Delhi`s Jama Masjid. The current Imam`s father (who I believe was the Imam during Partition) could best be described as an Indian dissident (someone correct me here) who lost no opportunity to distance himself from ANY government in India, and never quite repudiated TNT, thus fuelling suspicions. The current Imam, loses no opportunity to play up his `Indianess` and to remind his flock that their home is India, and that another Partition will not be allowed. Further, these religious leaders have of late reposed greater trust in India`s secular institutions than their Hindu counterparts. I think that the `71 war, Pakistan`s unsuccessful meddling in Punjab and Kashmir, the Zia legacy, and the gradual divergence of India-Pakistani polities have played a role in changing both Muslim and consequently, Hindu attitudes.
#477 Posted by fuzair on March 21, 2002 11:41:15 am
Re: Zafar
Actually it works both ways, as far as the `traffic` in brides goes. A few months back I met an Indian, Rajput from Indore, whose first cousin was married to a Sindhi Hindu in Karachi. (Sindh still has a largish Hindu minority and some of them are pretty large landowners). He told me about the fuss made by some of their relatives as to the propiety of ``giving`` a girl to a Pakistani. He was interested in comparing notes on Karachi and said he quite enjoyed his stay there when he went to visit last year.
You are of course probably correct when you say that there is a self-serving element at work in which Indian Muslim says what to whom. As far as the inability to find wives in Pakistan is concerned, we Muslims have an unhealthy predilection for marrying our cousins and probably there weren`t any girls of the right age in the families in Pakistan.
As far as the Army selection process is concerned, once you are naturalized AND you have a retired Pakistani Army colonel in your corner, such trivial things as having spent your entire life till quite recently in India become fairly minor matters. Yes, millions of Muslims migrated at Partition, my family is from East Punjab (BTW, E. Punjabis are not considered Muhajirs in Pakistan), but there is a limit as to how many now enemy nationals any nation could be asked to put up with!
As far as the ``problem`` aspect of things is concerned, it is true that some (most MQM types) Karachi Muhajirs do not seem to feel any particular affinity for or loyalty to Pakistan, Altaf Bhai being a prime example of this, but most are as ``good`` a Pakistani as the thaitest Punjabi.
Regards.
Actually it works both ways, as far as the `traffic` in brides goes. A few months back I met an Indian, Rajput from Indore, whose first cousin was married to a Sindhi Hindu in Karachi. (Sindh still has a largish Hindu minority and some of them are pretty large landowners). He told me about the fuss made by some of their relatives as to the propiety of ``giving`` a girl to a Pakistani. He was interested in comparing notes on Karachi and said he quite enjoyed his stay there when he went to visit last year.
You are of course probably correct when you say that there is a self-serving element at work in which Indian Muslim says what to whom. As far as the inability to find wives in Pakistan is concerned, we Muslims have an unhealthy predilection for marrying our cousins and probably there weren`t any girls of the right age in the families in Pakistan.
As far as the Army selection process is concerned, once you are naturalized AND you have a retired Pakistani Army colonel in your corner, such trivial things as having spent your entire life till quite recently in India become fairly minor matters. Yes, millions of Muslims migrated at Partition, my family is from East Punjab (BTW, E. Punjabis are not considered Muhajirs in Pakistan), but there is a limit as to how many now enemy nationals any nation could be asked to put up with!
As far as the ``problem`` aspect of things is concerned, it is true that some (most MQM types) Karachi Muhajirs do not seem to feel any particular affinity for or loyalty to Pakistan, Altaf Bhai being a prime example of this, but most are as ``good`` a Pakistani as the thaitest Punjabi.
Regards.
#476 Posted by semipreciousme on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
harimau:
“I have been accused of patronizing you. I hope you didn`t take it that way.”
….no, i didn’t….
“In your writings, I have found you to be a warm-hearted compassionate person.”
….hmm….you obviously haven’t seen me on a bad hair day….: )…but, thank you…
“I wouldn`t want that compassion replaced by cynicism because of all the horrors that we see around us... that was all I was trying to say.”
…. at the risk of sounding hokey, us eternal optimists aren’t beaten that easily…(no, not even on bad hair days: ))
“I have been accused of patronizing you. I hope you didn`t take it that way.”
….no, i didn’t….
“In your writings, I have found you to be a warm-hearted compassionate person.”
….hmm….you obviously haven’t seen me on a bad hair day….: )…but, thank you…
“I wouldn`t want that compassion replaced by cynicism because of all the horrors that we see around us... that was all I was trying to say.”
…. at the risk of sounding hokey, us eternal optimists aren’t beaten that easily…(no, not even on bad hair days: ))
#475 Posted by Raw_Dust on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
ATTn: Naqshbandi Sahib.
Could you enlighten me about the position of scholars associated with Barelvi school of thought on this seemingly historical blunder of Koran. ?(please see the translation of the verse 30 Chapter 09 (Surah Tauba) below from three different sources)
Judaic belief doesnot hold anyone whosoever as the Son of God.
That i can say after reading literature from various sources regarding Basic Judaic Beliefs.
Could you please clarify my confusion?
Thanx.
``009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what
the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They
imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate
the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! ``
Could you enlighten me about the position of scholars associated with Barelvi school of thought on this seemingly historical blunder of Koran. ?(please see the translation of the verse 30 Chapter 09 (Surah Tauba) below from three different sources)
Judaic belief doesnot hold anyone whosoever as the Son of God.
That i can say after reading literature from various sources regarding Basic Judaic Beliefs.
Could you please clarify my confusion?
Thanx.
``009.030
YUSUFALI: The Jews call `Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what
the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah`s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
PICKTHAL: And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They
imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!
SHAKIR: And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate
the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away! ``
#474 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
thanks for that url ylh--those pakistani girls are very beautiful muslim girls alhamdulillah! :-); i`ve seen most of them before but thanks anyway
i don`t know why you posted them? what are you trying to prove?! * *rolls eyes and shakes head * *
(i`m not a taliban as i keep telling you!)
#473 Posted by DRUMZ on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
Asif: Did u miss my post? I suggest u at least come up with some kinda response. Im not about to be ignored by anyone.
#472 Posted by ZafarA on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
Reply Roohi #: 467
“Typical Sydney sider !!”
Alhamdolillah, yes. Aap Bris Vegas ke log ko hamare baare men kya patha?
“Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!”
Bananas se Mexico ko?
But ok ok, so long as you don’t insult the palate with Fosters…I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…
And IF I were (God forbid) in Melbourne I wouldn’t even think of polluting my body with a meat pie (poi’n’sauce?) containing kya maalum? Squid Risotto in Prahran, thank you very much. AND unlimited ricotta canoli. But that’s just me…
“Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!”
You leave our wildlife alone please. Swans Rule!
(Say what you will of Rugby League – and I must draw your attention to the Queensland Cowboys and Ian Roberts, surely there is some bhav in all that – at least nobody is NSW gets christened in footy colours.)
Cheers
Zafar
“Typical Sydney sider !!”
Alhamdolillah, yes. Aap Bris Vegas ke log ko hamare baare men kya patha?
“Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!”
Bananas se Mexico ko?
But ok ok, so long as you don’t insult the palate with Fosters…I admit that my abiding memory of Melbourne is lining up outside The Mansion (in St Kilda’s) on Christmas Eve and FREEZING, although I was wearing jacket shacket, etc. In the middle of the Southern Summer….yeh koi climate bhi hui? Ask Subrotoda…
And IF I were (God forbid) in Melbourne I wouldn’t even think of polluting my body with a meat pie (poi’n’sauce?) containing kya maalum? Squid Risotto in Prahran, thank you very much. AND unlimited ricotta canoli. But that’s just me…
“Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!”
You leave our wildlife alone please. Swans Rule!
(Say what you will of Rugby League – and I must draw your attention to the Queensland Cowboys and Ian Roberts, surely there is some bhav in all that – at least nobody is NSW gets christened in footy colours.)
Cheers
Zafar
#471 Posted by ZafarA on March 21, 2002 3:11:17 am
Reply Fuzair # 469
“…I am just curious as to whether you have any relatives in Pakistan or not. Some, quite a few Upites I know (knew) in Karachi in the 1980s would either send to India (Lucknow and Kanpur, that I know of for sure) for brides for their sons and I knew of at least three grooms who went to India to get married and then brought their wives back to Pakistan.”
Fuzair Mian – yes, I have (had) relatives in Pakistan, but emphatically deny being from UP (we’re Memons, originally from Kutch). Getting spouses from uss paar is not unknown, but also not all that common in India. Speaking of us, there are not that many Memons around, so if a family wants their child to make a sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh) marriage, they tended to look all over for a “suitable boy/girl” – including East Africa, Pakistan, you name it. Not quite sure what to make UP’ites from either side of the border being unable to find a spouse in their respective countries – what does it say about the individual???? But this is a digression…
“Indians are also commissioned into the Pakistan Army. My father almost had a fit when he read the ACR of a new offier posted to his command when he realized that the person in question had done his Matriculation from New Delhi! Under the Divided Families Act, this officer`s uncle, a retired Colonel, had arranged it so that his nephew came to Pakistan, did his FSc and joined PMA. My father grilled this officer and found out that the younger brother was also a cadet at PMA and this officer knew of at least half a dozen other ``Indians`` who were commissioned in the Pakistan Army! Keep in mind that these were officers who were commissioned in the 1980s and now would be Lt. Cols or so.”
Ha! Very funny – two of my grandaunts (including the infamous Jubbi Sobhani) were Pakistani Army Doctors based in Karachi. They went to Pakistan at the time of Partition (or soon after Partition, from the UK) however, not in the fifties or sixties.
Re: movement to Pakistan – until 1971, there was an on-going movement to Pakistan of a small number of educated Indian Muslims who felt that they would face some discrimination at home. (A college professor we knew in Delhi told us that when a student would come to him for advice on this he told them to finish their studies in India as an Indian degree would make them more competetive – don’t know if this was true or just self aggrandisement on his part.) After 1971 this came to a very definite end, largely because Pakistan essentially stopped allowing Indian Muslims to migrate (unless as spouses).
“According to this man, biased though he may be, many Indian Muslims felt absolutely no loyalty to India and, back then at least, tried to get to Pakistan as fast as they could. Obviously you don`t fall in this category but how many, if at all, do you know that might?”
Who pays the piper calls the tune – mathlab, Indian Muslims who move to Pakistan know what Pakistanis want to hear and believe about Indian Muslim loyalties, and understand that their social acceptance/professional advancement is facilitated by telling people what they want to hear. Similarly Indian Muslims who remained in India know what other Indians want to hear and believe. This is not to say that nobody has any deeply felt loyalties, or lack thereof, but it’s hard to definitely evaluate which proportion feels which way given the situation/location on the subcontinent in which opinions are given. Perhaps asking Indian Muslims settled in a third country would give you the most accurate answer, although again you would get a self selecting subgroup which is perhaps not representative of the whole.
Re: lack of loyalty to India/identification with Pakistan, I have never heard Indian Muslims saying that in India, but given that they knew our family’s views on that, they might just have been discrete in front of us? Also – which side your bread is buttered on is a strong influence on where loyalties are given/withheld. If someone grows up knowing they have a meal ticket waiting for them in another country, their focus is going to be there, no, and their world view is going to develop to justify that.
“My father was concerned that people who up till a few years ago had been Indian citizens living, working and studying in India were coming across the border and effortlessly slipping into the Pakistani Army and becoming officers just because they have a family connection in Pakistan.”
How does the Pakistani Army select its officers? Surely there is some sort of test/evaluation rather than just connections with existing Army Officers? Meaning, just any Indian Muslim couldn’t rock up and join as an officer, surely.
“The security risks of this are obvious. However, while I personally do not know of any Pakistani officers spying for India, RAW would have to be composed of complete idiots if they do not make use of the fact that these officers have very close family in India.”
In that case Pakistan should be 100% safe from spying from India. Be of good cheer. Hamare haan ke log spy karthe tho abh thak tho zaroor pakade jaathe.
“Actually, this is a very common problem with many Upite/Muhajir families in Pakistan.”
Extremely interesting choice of words! Problem for whom? Aur vaisai I hope you aren’t casting aspersions on the good faith of the Great White Hope, aka President Saheb.
“For example, General Rahimuddin, former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff under Zia, Corp Commander, Provincial Governor, and all around scum bag, was the nephew of Zakir Hussain, one of your former presidents. Thats why I was curious if Zafar had any relatives in Pakistan.”
Heyyyyyyyy….I can see where this is going. I hope you aren’t trying to pin responsibility for a scumbag on me…I deny it all. Prove it.
Regards
Zafar
PS Interesting thought: LK Advani is an ISI operative under deep cover, being controlled by Pakistani custody of his relatives in Sindh. Oh, also Sushma Swaraj (how is that she is speaking Urdu so well, haiN?) Man, your spooks are better than ours. (Sorry Veeresh Unkil.)
“…I am just curious as to whether you have any relatives in Pakistan or not. Some, quite a few Upites I know (knew) in Karachi in the 1980s would either send to India (Lucknow and Kanpur, that I know of for sure) for brides for their sons and I knew of at least three grooms who went to India to get married and then brought their wives back to Pakistan.”
Fuzair Mian – yes, I have (had) relatives in Pakistan, but emphatically deny being from UP (we’re Memons, originally from Kutch). Getting spouses from uss paar is not unknown, but also not all that common in India. Speaking of us, there are not that many Memons around, so if a family wants their child to make a sudd (Kutchi word meaning pakka, or shuddh) marriage, they tended to look all over for a “suitable boy/girl” – including East Africa, Pakistan, you name it. Not quite sure what to make UP’ites from either side of the border being unable to find a spouse in their respective countries – what does it say about the individual???? But this is a digression…
“Indians are also commissioned into the Pakistan Army. My father almost had a fit when he read the ACR of a new offier posted to his command when he realized that the person in question had done his Matriculation from New Delhi! Under the Divided Families Act, this officer`s uncle, a retired Colonel, had arranged it so that his nephew came to Pakistan, did his FSc and joined PMA. My father grilled this officer and found out that the younger brother was also a cadet at PMA and this officer knew of at least half a dozen other ``Indians`` who were commissioned in the Pakistan Army! Keep in mind that these were officers who were commissioned in the 1980s and now would be Lt. Cols or so.”
Ha! Very funny – two of my grandaunts (including the infamous Jubbi Sobhani) were Pakistani Army Doctors based in Karachi. They went to Pakistan at the time of Partition (or soon after Partition, from the UK) however, not in the fifties or sixties.
Re: movement to Pakistan – until 1971, there was an on-going movement to Pakistan of a small number of educated Indian Muslims who felt that they would face some discrimination at home. (A college professor we knew in Delhi told us that when a student would come to him for advice on this he told them to finish their studies in India as an Indian degree would make them more competetive – don’t know if this was true or just self aggrandisement on his part.) After 1971 this came to a very definite end, largely because Pakistan essentially stopped allowing Indian Muslims to migrate (unless as spouses).
“According to this man, biased though he may be, many Indian Muslims felt absolutely no loyalty to India and, back then at least, tried to get to Pakistan as fast as they could. Obviously you don`t fall in this category but how many, if at all, do you know that might?”
Who pays the piper calls the tune – mathlab, Indian Muslims who move to Pakistan know what Pakistanis want to hear and believe about Indian Muslim loyalties, and understand that their social acceptance/professional advancement is facilitated by telling people what they want to hear. Similarly Indian Muslims who remained in India know what other Indians want to hear and believe. This is not to say that nobody has any deeply felt loyalties, or lack thereof, but it’s hard to definitely evaluate which proportion feels which way given the situation/location on the subcontinent in which opinions are given. Perhaps asking Indian Muslims settled in a third country would give you the most accurate answer, although again you would get a self selecting subgroup which is perhaps not representative of the whole.
Re: lack of loyalty to India/identification with Pakistan, I have never heard Indian Muslims saying that in India, but given that they knew our family’s views on that, they might just have been discrete in front of us? Also – which side your bread is buttered on is a strong influence on where loyalties are given/withheld. If someone grows up knowing they have a meal ticket waiting for them in another country, their focus is going to be there, no, and their world view is going to develop to justify that.
“My father was concerned that people who up till a few years ago had been Indian citizens living, working and studying in India were coming across the border and effortlessly slipping into the Pakistani Army and becoming officers just because they have a family connection in Pakistan.”
How does the Pakistani Army select its officers? Surely there is some sort of test/evaluation rather than just connections with existing Army Officers? Meaning, just any Indian Muslim couldn’t rock up and join as an officer, surely.
“The security risks of this are obvious. However, while I personally do not know of any Pakistani officers spying for India, RAW would have to be composed of complete idiots if they do not make use of the fact that these officers have very close family in India.”
In that case Pakistan should be 100% safe from spying from India. Be of good cheer. Hamare haan ke log spy karthe tho abh thak tho zaroor pakade jaathe.
“Actually, this is a very common problem with many Upite/Muhajir families in Pakistan.”
Extremely interesting choice of words! Problem for whom? Aur vaisai I hope you aren’t casting aspersions on the good faith of the Great White Hope, aka President Saheb.
“For example, General Rahimuddin, former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff under Zia, Corp Commander, Provincial Governor, and all around scum bag, was the nephew of Zakir Hussain, one of your former presidents. Thats why I was curious if Zafar had any relatives in Pakistan.”
Heyyyyyyyy….I can see where this is going. I hope you aren’t trying to pin responsibility for a scumbag on me…I deny it all. Prove it.
Regards
Zafar
PS Interesting thought: LK Advani is an ISI operative under deep cover, being controlled by Pakistani custody of his relatives in Sindh. Oh, also Sushma Swaraj (how is that she is speaking Urdu so well, haiN?) Man, your spooks are better than ours. (Sorry Veeresh Unkil.)
#470 Posted by ylh on March 20, 2002 7:39:47 pm
For Naqshu dear... Pakistan !
http://www.paknews.com/urdu/fashion.php
http://www.paknews.com/urdu/fashion.php
#469 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 20, 2002 7:39:47 pm
dost-mittar,
yes that is one opinion of a lot of Sunni scholars that nukes are not allowed in Shar`iah because of the fact that they kill with fire [a right reserved for Allah] and also that they kill all and sundry indiscriminately; however there is difference of opinion amongst Sunni scholars as some also argue that in Shar`iah it is a duty to be able to protect the Muslims and so if your enemy has a nuke then you should also have one for self-defense purposes. It is a question for the scholars to debate. I am a simple layman and follow the scholars!
yes that is one opinion of a lot of Sunni scholars that nukes are not allowed in Shar`iah because of the fact that they kill with fire [a right reserved for Allah] and also that they kill all and sundry indiscriminately; however there is difference of opinion amongst Sunni scholars as some also argue that in Shar`iah it is a duty to be able to protect the Muslims and so if your enemy has a nuke then you should also have one for self-defense purposes. It is a question for the scholars to debate. I am a simple layman and follow the scholars!
#468 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 20, 2002 7:39:47 pm
ylh,
The CALIPHATE [khilafah] was the system of governance first adopted by the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam in Madina and it is the form of governance preferred in Islam; why, if that is not the case, are the first four rulers of Islam after the Prophet known as the Rightly Guided CALIPHS and their CALIPHATES.
Only a person totally devoid of Islamic knowledge would claim the Caliphate is not Islamic!
By insulting it you are insulting Islam; so WHAT if Qaid e AZam said what you claim? He is NOT a religious authority! He is only respected because he helped to create Pakistan. And if he said what you claimed he said well he was totally wrong.
You seem to give more importance to the Qaid then to the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam! Astaghfirullah!
The CALIPHATE [khilafah] was the system of governance first adopted by the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam in Madina and it is the form of governance preferred in Islam; why, if that is not the case, are the first four rulers of Islam after the Prophet known as the Rightly Guided CALIPHS and their CALIPHATES.
Only a person totally devoid of Islamic knowledge would claim the Caliphate is not Islamic!
By insulting it you are insulting Islam; so WHAT if Qaid e AZam said what you claim? He is NOT a religious authority! He is only respected because he helped to create Pakistan. And if he said what you claimed he said well he was totally wrong.
You seem to give more importance to the Qaid then to the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam! Astaghfirullah!
#467 Posted by ylh on March 20, 2002 2:52:05 pm
On Asif Naqshbandi`s Caliphate Nonsense...
Allah Save the World from this `Caliphate` menace.. see Indians, what your Gandhi was trying to save.. the caliphate? Poor Gandhi, I am sure he had no idea.
As Jinnah said:
`This Khilafat is False religious Frenzy` trumped up by the `mad mullahs` (M.A.Jinnah on Khilafat movement quoted from `Secular and Nationalist Jinnah by Dr Ajeet. Also mentioned in Stanley Wolpert`s `Jinnah of Pakistan` amongst other books. )
It is now my opinion, that the Islam that I follow is the right Islam, and the Islam of Naqshbandi and nothing but Jahalat of the sort that Abu Juhl preached.
What is Islam? Humanity, God and the Prophet.
What is Sharia? The distinction between Good and bad.
What is Sunnah? The realism and pragmatism of the Holy Prophet, and not that he ate with his hands.
What is Khilafat? FALSE RELIGIOUS FRENZY. A CONCEPT ENTIRELY ALIEN TO ISLAM.
Allah Save the World from this `Caliphate` menace.. see Indians, what your Gandhi was trying to save.. the caliphate? Poor Gandhi, I am sure he had no idea.
As Jinnah said:
`This Khilafat is False religious Frenzy` trumped up by the `mad mullahs` (M.A.Jinnah on Khilafat movement quoted from `Secular and Nationalist Jinnah by Dr Ajeet. Also mentioned in Stanley Wolpert`s `Jinnah of Pakistan` amongst other books. )
It is now my opinion, that the Islam that I follow is the right Islam, and the Islam of Naqshbandi and nothing but Jahalat of the sort that Abu Juhl preached.
What is Islam? Humanity, God and the Prophet.
What is Sharia? The distinction between Good and bad.
What is Sunnah? The realism and pragmatism of the Holy Prophet, and not that he ate with his hands.
What is Khilafat? FALSE RELIGIOUS FRENZY. A CONCEPT ENTIRELY ALIEN TO ISLAM.
#465 Posted by fuzair on March 20, 2002 6:35:18 am
Shammi:
ACR stands for ``Annual Confidential Report,`` each officer`s annual fitness report which has to be signed-off on by each officer`s CO and the commanders of various higher level formations. My father was concerned that people who up till a few years ago had been Indian citizens living, working and studying in India were coming across the border and effortlessly slipping into the Pakistani Army and becoming officers just because they have a family connection in Pakistan. The security risks of this are obvious. However, while I personally do not know of any Pakistani officers spying for India, RAW would have to be composed of complete idiots if they do not make use of the fact that these officers have very close family in India. Actually, this is a very common problem with many Upite/Muhajir families in Pakistan. For example, General Rahimuddin, former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff under Zia, Corp Commander, Provincial Governor, and all around scum bag, was the nephew of Zakir Hussain, one of your former presidents. Thats why I was curious if Zafar had any relatives in Pakistan.
Regards.
ACR stands for ``Annual Confidential Report,`` each officer`s annual fitness report which has to be signed-off on by each officer`s CO and the commanders of various higher level formations. My father was concerned that people who up till a few years ago had been Indian citizens living, working and studying in India were coming across the border and effortlessly slipping into the Pakistani Army and becoming officers just because they have a family connection in Pakistan. The security risks of this are obvious. However, while I personally do not know of any Pakistani officers spying for India, RAW would have to be composed of complete idiots if they do not make use of the fact that these officers have very close family in India. Actually, this is a very common problem with many Upite/Muhajir families in Pakistan. For example, General Rahimuddin, former Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff under Zia, Corp Commander, Provincial Governor, and all around scum bag, was the nephew of Zakir Hussain, one of your former presidents. Thats why I was curious if Zafar had any relatives in Pakistan.
Regards.
#464 Posted by sadna on March 20, 2002 1:10:56 am
Asif #479, #477
So there IS compulsion in religion.
So there IS compulsion in religion.
#463 Posted by subroto on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
RE Roohi # 467
``My huge Khandaan lives all over OZ including Sydney but most are in Brisbane ``
Brisbane? To phir swans aur bomber ki kya zaroorat hai jab Brisbane Broncos hain yahan. Vaise ho sakta hai ki aapko Brisbane may nahi to kabhi na kabhi DSOI may dekha hoga!
``My huge Khandaan lives all over OZ including Sydney but most are in Brisbane ``
Brisbane? To phir swans aur bomber ki kya zaroorat hai jab Brisbane Broncos hain yahan. Vaise ho sakta hai ki aapko Brisbane may nahi to kabhi na kabhi DSOI may dekha hoga!
#462 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Sadna,
please note that at the time of writing i was not 100% sure of what ``the conditions of offensive jihad being present according to the rules of Shar`iah`` ARE but the following quote from a classical islamic manual of fiqh should be helpful:
The “Reliance of the Traveler, (the Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)”, page 599, says,
``The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has *first * invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, *then * invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and Hiss messenger have forbidden – who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been give the Book – until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” 9:29 ``
“Reliance of the Traveler”, (A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law), by Ahmad al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, published by Amana publications, Beltsville, Maryland, USA 1991.
So now you have your answer. I am not an apologist.
please note that at the time of writing i was not 100% sure of what ``the conditions of offensive jihad being present according to the rules of Shar`iah`` ARE but the following quote from a classical islamic manual of fiqh should be helpful:
The “Reliance of the Traveler, (the Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law)”, page 599, says,
``The Caliph makes war upon the Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians, provided he has *first * invited them to enter Islam in faith and practice, and if they will not, *then * invited them to enter the social order of Islam by paying the non-Muslim poll tax Jizya…in accordance with the word of Allah Most High:
“Fight those who do not believe in Allah and the Last Day and who forbid not what Allah and Hiss messenger have forbidden – who do not practice the religion of truth, being of those who have been give the Book – until they pay the poll tax out of hand and are humbled.” 9:29 ``
“Reliance of the Traveler”, (A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law), by Ahmad al-Misri, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, published by Amana publications, Beltsville, Maryland, USA 1991.
So now you have your answer. I am not an apologist.
#461 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
sadna,
your question is totally hypothetical as there IS no caliphate and not likely to be one in the near-future (Allah knows best) so my speculation is pointless in regards to your question. BUT just for the sake of answering, I will say that the caliphate will follow the rules of Shar`iah in this matter which would be the following according to my (meagre) knowledge of Islam:
1 Assuming that the Caliph of the Muslims in this future Caliphate sees that the conditions of offensive jihad against India are present according to the rules of Shar`iah he would :
i.) Invite the rulers of India to accept the rule of Islam over them. If they accept then fine. If they refuse then
ii.) He will offer them peaceful relations with the Caliphate if they agree to pay the jizya tax. If they accept fine but if they refuse
iii.) He will declare jihad against them and attempt to conquer their lands only for raising high the name of Allah and the glory of Islam according to the humane laws of war in Islam such as no killing of civilians, nor animals, no burning of trees or crops, no killing of priests or holy men, or women, or the elderly, or children or poisoning of wells etc.
But all this is hypothetical as no such Caliphate exists yet and Allah knows best.
Please be aware that I might well be wrong in some of the details above. And if so I ask Allah`s forgiveness and ask a *knowledgable * brother or sister to correct me (not a modernist).
your question is totally hypothetical as there IS no caliphate and not likely to be one in the near-future (Allah knows best) so my speculation is pointless in regards to your question. BUT just for the sake of answering, I will say that the caliphate will follow the rules of Shar`iah in this matter which would be the following according to my (meagre) knowledge of Islam:
1 Assuming that the Caliph of the Muslims in this future Caliphate sees that the conditions of offensive jihad against India are present according to the rules of Shar`iah he would :
i.) Invite the rulers of India to accept the rule of Islam over them. If they accept then fine. If they refuse then
ii.) He will offer them peaceful relations with the Caliphate if they agree to pay the jizya tax. If they accept fine but if they refuse
iii.) He will declare jihad against them and attempt to conquer their lands only for raising high the name of Allah and the glory of Islam according to the humane laws of war in Islam such as no killing of civilians, nor animals, no burning of trees or crops, no killing of priests or holy men, or women, or the elderly, or children or poisoning of wells etc.
But all this is hypothetical as no such Caliphate exists yet and Allah knows best.
Please be aware that I might well be wrong in some of the details above. And if so I ask Allah`s forgiveness and ask a *knowledgable * brother or sister to correct me (not a modernist).
#460 Posted by DRUMZ on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Asif: ``The sufis and ulama did that by the force of their personalities and the Truth which shone from them.``
It speaks volumes that a sufi would say that, yet support a law which has itself killed numerous sufis. There are serious problems in what u say. Your outlook speaks of introspection, yet your beliefs are tarnished with fear and cowardice. U need to balance yourself. Think before u speak and dont say anything u dont TRUELY believe in. Unless ur not balanced on this world and the next, stable, nuetral, intense and ready to die, your not worth anyone`s time.
That`s sufism. And get serious, find a new teacher and stop wasting ur time with these pointless chowk discussions. How is the training going? Perform activities that cleanse ur mind, u think too much and on the wrong topics. Meditate on ur breath, that`s nuetrality. And always know that there is a reason why u hear what u do, when u do.
PEACE
It speaks volumes that a sufi would say that, yet support a law which has itself killed numerous sufis. There are serious problems in what u say. Your outlook speaks of introspection, yet your beliefs are tarnished with fear and cowardice. U need to balance yourself. Think before u speak and dont say anything u dont TRUELY believe in. Unless ur not balanced on this world and the next, stable, nuetral, intense and ready to die, your not worth anyone`s time.
That`s sufism. And get serious, find a new teacher and stop wasting ur time with these pointless chowk discussions. How is the training going? Perform activities that cleanse ur mind, u think too much and on the wrong topics. Meditate on ur breath, that`s nuetrality. And always know that there is a reason why u hear what u do, when u do.
PEACE
#459 Posted by sattar2 on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Re Naqshbandi Sahib (#428):
You wrote “-- i support the blasphemy law because it is a part of Islamic Law”
Now, I have argued that Blasphemy Laws are not Islamic. To support my contention, I provided two references from Quran (4:140 and 6:68) where believers are commanded to merely sever ties with those who blaspheme.
At that point in the discussion, you brought up the issue of “nasikh/mansookh” (i.e., abrogation of Quranic verses).
I’ll ask you once again to make sure I understand correctly… do the scholars you often quote (say Barelvi scholars and/or Jamiaat scholars), believe that some verses of Quran are now abrogated?
Your insightful comments will be much appreciated.
Regards, Asad
You wrote “-- i support the blasphemy law because it is a part of Islamic Law”
Now, I have argued that Blasphemy Laws are not Islamic. To support my contention, I provided two references from Quran (4:140 and 6:68) where believers are commanded to merely sever ties with those who blaspheme.
At that point in the discussion, you brought up the issue of “nasikh/mansookh” (i.e., abrogation of Quranic verses).
I’ll ask you once again to make sure I understand correctly… do the scholars you often quote (say Barelvi scholars and/or Jamiaat scholars), believe that some verses of Quran are now abrogated?
Your insightful comments will be much appreciated.
Regards, Asad
#458 Posted by ylh on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Asif Naqshbandi,
First about Jinnah being Shia or Sunni.... just because Shabbir Ahmed Usmani read his namaaz e Jinaza doesn`t make him a Sunni.. Jinnah himself was above this nonsense... Furthermore read some History and you will realize that Kemal Ataturk was also buried according to Hanafi Sunni rites... Now are you going to tell me that Kemal Ataturk was also a `Sunni Muslim`?
THE FACTS ARE: After Jinnah`s death in September 1948, his sister Fatima Jinnah and then prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan had jointly filed a petition in the Karachi high court describing Jinnah as a ``Shia Khoja Mohammedan`` and sought that his will may be executed under the Shia inheritance law. Again, when Fatima Jinnah died in 1967, another sister Shirin Bai claimed her property under the Shia law.
In December 1976, the court rejected Ganji Walji`s plea against Shirin Bai`s claim on Fatima`s property under the Shia law. Which effectively meant the court had accepted the Jinnah family as Shia.
Now, check your facts...
1)Majlis e Ahrar was N0T deobandi.
2)JI is not Deobandi
3)Azad was NOT deobandi. If you knew better you would know that Azad was a first generation migrant from Mecca.
You are without any objective knowledge... and you don`t belong in Quaid e Azam`s Pakistan.
Long Live Pakistan.
First about Jinnah being Shia or Sunni.... just because Shabbir Ahmed Usmani read his namaaz e Jinaza doesn`t make him a Sunni.. Jinnah himself was above this nonsense... Furthermore read some History and you will realize that Kemal Ataturk was also buried according to Hanafi Sunni rites... Now are you going to tell me that Kemal Ataturk was also a `Sunni Muslim`?
THE FACTS ARE: After Jinnah`s death in September 1948, his sister Fatima Jinnah and then prime minister Liaquat Ali Khan had jointly filed a petition in the Karachi high court describing Jinnah as a ``Shia Khoja Mohammedan`` and sought that his will may be executed under the Shia inheritance law. Again, when Fatima Jinnah died in 1967, another sister Shirin Bai claimed her property under the Shia law.
In December 1976, the court rejected Ganji Walji`s plea against Shirin Bai`s claim on Fatima`s property under the Shia law. Which effectively meant the court had accepted the Jinnah family as Shia.
Now, check your facts...
1)Majlis e Ahrar was N0T deobandi.
2)JI is not Deobandi
3)Azad was NOT deobandi. If you knew better you would know that Azad was a first generation migrant from Mecca.
You are without any objective knowledge... and you don`t belong in Quaid e Azam`s Pakistan.
Long Live Pakistan.
#457 Posted by shammi on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Re: Fuzair
Please translate -- what is an ACR? Also, why would your father throw a fit? What was his position? Thanks
Please translate -- what is an ACR? Also, why would your father throw a fit? What was his position? Thanks
#456 Posted by harimau on March 20, 2002 12:56:46 am
Ref wholly-precious-you #: 465
[…it’s the easy way out to say that’s politics and brush it aside…]
I am NOT asking you to brush aside anything. I was merely laying out what compulsions Vajpayee may be in. I have never put much faith in ANY political party in India. Perhaps the only time India was governed by and with idealism was the first 10 years after independence.
[…careful….is that your slip showing?…;) ]
I have been accused of patronizing you. I hope you didn`t take it that way. In your writings, I have found you to be a warm-hearted compassionate person. I wouldn`t want that compassion replaced by cynicism because of all the horrors that we see around us... that was all I was trying to say.
Khuda Hafiz.
[…it’s the easy way out to say that’s politics and brush it aside…]
I am NOT asking you to brush aside anything. I was merely laying out what compulsions Vajpayee may be in. I have never put much faith in ANY political party in India. Perhaps the only time India was governed by and with idealism was the first 10 years after independence.
[…careful….is that your slip showing?…;) ]
I have been accused of patronizing you. I hope you didn`t take it that way. In your writings, I have found you to be a warm-hearted compassionate person. I wouldn`t want that compassion replaced by cynicism because of all the horrors that we see around us... that was all I was trying to say.
Khuda Hafiz.
#455 Posted by sadna on March 19, 2002 3:30:23 pm
Asif #449
``no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword``
Whatever. But tell me this, did islamic rule spread in India via the sword or it was invited?
And how many times must you be asked this question before you answer: is your envisaged Caliphate going to take over India by force or Hindus/Muslims are going to invite its rule?
``no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword``
Whatever. But tell me this, did islamic rule spread in India via the sword or it was invited?
And how many times must you be asked this question before you answer: is your envisaged Caliphate going to take over India by force or Hindus/Muslims are going to invite its rule?
#454 Posted by fuzair on March 19, 2002 2:37:56 pm
Re: Zafar #330
Interesting. I am just curious as to whether you have any relatives in Pakistan or not. Some, quite a few?, Upites I know (knew) in Karachi in the 1980s would either send to India (Lucknow and Kanpur, that I know of for sure) for brides for their sons and I knew of at least three grooms who went to India to get married and then brought their wives back to Pakistan. Indians are also commissioned into the Pakistan Army. My father almost had a fit when he read the ACR of a new offier posted to his command when he realized that the person in question had done his Matriculation from New Delhi! Under the Divided Families Act, this officer`s uncle, a retired Colonel, had arranged it so that his nephew came to Pakistan, did his FSc and joined PMA. My father grilled this officer and found out that the younger brother was also a cadet at PMA and this officer knew of at least half a dozen other ``Indians`` who were commissioned in the Pakistan Army! Keep in mind that these were officers who were commissioned in the 1980s and now would be Lt. Cols or so.
According to this man, biased though he may be, many Indian Muslims felt absolutely no loyalty to India and, back then at least, tried to get to Pakistan as fast as they could. Obviously you don`t fall in this category but how many, if at all, do you know that might?
Regards.
Interesting. I am just curious as to whether you have any relatives in Pakistan or not. Some, quite a few?, Upites I know (knew) in Karachi in the 1980s would either send to India (Lucknow and Kanpur, that I know of for sure) for brides for their sons and I knew of at least three grooms who went to India to get married and then brought their wives back to Pakistan. Indians are also commissioned into the Pakistan Army. My father almost had a fit when he read the ACR of a new offier posted to his command when he realized that the person in question had done his Matriculation from New Delhi! Under the Divided Families Act, this officer`s uncle, a retired Colonel, had arranged it so that his nephew came to Pakistan, did his FSc and joined PMA. My father grilled this officer and found out that the younger brother was also a cadet at PMA and this officer knew of at least half a dozen other ``Indians`` who were commissioned in the Pakistan Army! Keep in mind that these were officers who were commissioned in the 1980s and now would be Lt. Cols or so.
According to this man, biased though he may be, many Indian Muslims felt absolutely no loyalty to India and, back then at least, tried to get to Pakistan as fast as they could. Obviously you don`t fall in this category but how many, if at all, do you know that might?
Regards.
#453 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
YLH writes:
Questions:
1) Was Majlis e Ahrar `Deobandi`?
YES
2) Was Jamaat e Islami `Deobandi`?
YES AND THEY STILL ARE. READ THEIR WEBSITE AND YOU WILL SEE PRAISE OF DEOBANDI SCHOLARS.
3) Was Ataullah Shah Bukhari of Dehli `Deobandi`?
DO NOT KNOW.
4) Was Abu al Kalaam Azad `Deobandi`?
YES.
I wrote:
``AND Barelvis make up the VAST majority of Sunni Muslims in the Subcontinent. In fact without the support which many pirs with hundreds of thousands of murids gave to Jinnah throughout the length and breadth of United India Pakistan would never have come into existence.``
This is a FACT. You cannot deny this. Why don`t you read the books I recommended? They are both written by non-Muslim Western educated academics.
Even today Barelvis make up most of the subcontinents Sunni Muslims. Jamiat-e-Ulema-Pakistan (JUP) is a Barelvi party. The Markazi Jama`at Ahle Sunnat had annual meetings (eg 1946) where they unanimously voted for SUPPORTING Pakistan. In fact Quad himself attended this meeting which was presided over by Hadrat Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah rahmatullah alayhi and over 1000 scholars and shaykhs from all over India came. At this meeting all present unanimously voted for Pakistan. In fact Hadrat Amir e Millat Qibla Pir Sayyid Jama`at Ali Shah gave a fatwa that he would not read the namaz e janazah of any of his murids (over 1 million) who did not vote for the Muslim League and Pakistan!
* * * * * *
Dont let your hatred of Islam blind you to the truth. As for Jinnah`s demise, according to Prof. Akbar S Ahmed and his book Jinnah: The Search for Saladin he writes that Quaid e AZam was actually buried according to SUNNI ceremonies which suggests he converted. Allah knows best the state of his iman.
#452 Posted by roohi on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Zafar #464
Typical Sydney sider !! Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!
You`re right about that trip being worth it - when that immigration guy stamps my passport at Sydney and says Welcome Home ! makes that 15 hour trip trapped in a tin can from LA worth it (after 6 hours trapped in a tin can from Boston to LA).
My huge Khandaan lives all over OZ including Sydney but most are in Brisbane - so that`s where I end up on trips back. I have to admit it takes some getting used to when I get back to Boston after a few weeks of soaking up the sun on the Gold Coast !!
On my last trip the flight I took from BOS to LAX was American Flight 11 (yes that one that hit the WTC first) they code share with Quantas ... Sept 11 was only 2 months after that trip - still makes me sick to think of me and my babas in that plane :-(
Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!
Typical Sydney sider !! Ofcourse there are other cities - lovely Melbourne where I found my feet after leaving Nai Dilli - whats that meat pie if you`re not eating it watching Collingwood slug it out with the Essendon Bombers at the MCG - and shall pass that Hahn for a XXXX or VB any day !!
You`re right about that trip being worth it - when that immigration guy stamps my passport at Sydney and says Welcome Home ! makes that 15 hour trip trapped in a tin can from LA worth it (after 6 hours trapped in a tin can from Boston to LA).
My huge Khandaan lives all over OZ including Sydney but most are in Brisbane - so that`s where I end up on trips back. I have to admit it takes some getting used to when I get back to Boston after a few weeks of soaking up the sun on the Gold Coast !!
On my last trip the flight I took from BOS to LAX was American Flight 11 (yes that one that hit the WTC first) they code share with Quantas ... Sept 11 was only 2 months after that trip - still makes me sick to think of me and my babas in that plane :-(
Anyway shout yourself a drink for me and try and think Aussie Rules even if it means rooting for those Swans!!
#451 Posted by shammi on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
Re: Naqshu
I hate living in the past, but occassionally your disinformation needs to be corrected. You said, `they never forced ppl to become Muslims in their kingdoms`.
I say, have you heard of Guru Tegh Bahadur (of the Sikhs) and his sons, or of Bhai Matti Das Chibber?. A simple Web search should suffice.
I hate living in the past, but occassionally your disinformation needs to be corrected. You said, `they never forced ppl to become Muslims in their kingdoms`.
I say, have you heard of Guru Tegh Bahadur (of the Sikhs) and his sons, or of Bhai Matti Das Chibber?. A simple Web search should suffice.
#450 Posted by semipreciousme on March 19, 2002 12:46:00 pm
harimau:
“Vajpayee is just another politician. Even if he wants to do good, he needs to pander to the public to get elected. We don`t know that he liked or disliked doing what he did (receiving the pillar for the temple) but some political calculation always enters into such a decision: not receiving it would alienate some people and receiving it will alienate another group. The lure of power is very strong indeed and it would take a saint to walk away from the throne of power.”
…it’s the easy way out to say that’s politics and brush it aside…
“You are young and idealistic. As the years go by, you are likely to find your faith in the goodness of people, in humanity, shaken and shaken violently by events such as the Gujarat riots. But don`t lose your faith in the common man. Don`t lose your idealism. Don`t turn cynical even as you question what you see around you. In your daily life, commit random acts of kindness and senseless acts of charity to people you don`t know. You will go to your reward in afterlife knowing that you have done your little bit to make the world a slightly better place.”
…careful….is that your slip showing?…;)
#448 Posted by ZafarA on March 19, 2002 2:56:46 am
Reply to Roohi
“Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me?”
MAAAAAAAAAAAATE! And, of course, MAIN KYA JEEEEEE! I think that makes three of us so far (you, Subroto and myself.)
“Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?”
Sydney. (There are other cities in this country? Really?) Actually I lived in the US before moving here. Aap aur Mr R kahan hain?
“Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !”
The plane trip is undoubtedly horrendous, but isn’t it worth it when you look out of the plane window at dawn and the Australian coastline starts emerging as a thin line on the horizon, and as you get closer and the light increases you start seeing white beaches and (depending on the weather) you look down and notice the waves, and whether they are white topped or not, etc. etc. etc? And you know you are but a brief hour or so away from Godzone and meat pies (optional) and a Hahn Premium (not optional)?
Yes. I am a total convert. (I guess convict culture agrees with me.) I also actually like the accent…(though those Kiwis, I hefta saiy…ok, here’s a Kiwi joke for you: Where does a chickout chuck work in Auckland? Let’s see if your Ostrayan is still functional.)
Onya, etc.
“Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me?”
MAAAAAAAAAAAATE! And, of course, MAIN KYA JEEEEEE! I think that makes three of us so far (you, Subroto and myself.)
“Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?”
Sydney. (There are other cities in this country? Really?) Actually I lived in the US before moving here. Aap aur Mr R kahan hain?
“Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !”
The plane trip is undoubtedly horrendous, but isn’t it worth it when you look out of the plane window at dawn and the Australian coastline starts emerging as a thin line on the horizon, and as you get closer and the light increases you start seeing white beaches and (depending on the weather) you look down and notice the waves, and whether they are white topped or not, etc. etc. etc? And you know you are but a brief hour or so away from Godzone and meat pies (optional) and a Hahn Premium (not optional)?
Yes. I am a total convert. (I guess convict culture agrees with me.) I also actually like the accent…(though those Kiwis, I hefta saiy…ok, here’s a Kiwi joke for you: Where does a chickout chuck work in Auckland? Let’s see if your Ostrayan is still functional.)
Onya, etc.
#447 Posted by tahmed321 on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
dost-mittar #448 Thanks for the reassurance on my not being a mullah (I was getting worried, and was afraid to look at the mirror in case I see a one eyed full bearded mullah omar staring back). On your question: ``if Ahmadis feel better saying that they are Muslims, ``twaada kee jaandaai``?``: Never called Ahmadis non-muslims, never will. If someone calls himself a muslim that is fine with me and I will call him a muslim too, and since Ahmedis consider themselves muslim, I call them muslims. I made this clear early in the discussion with the Ahmedi gentleman (brother sattar2). I have a right to interpret the Quran per my judgement, but that right does not extend to denying anyone else the same right by declaring him a non-muslim.
Furthermore, if someone considers himself a christian I will consider him a christian without requiring him to answer a multiple choice exam on the new testament. If someone considers himself a hindu or a sikh or a jew or just plain human-person that is fine too. No tests required. Nor are muslims a ``chosen people`` - their actions will be judged as much as the actions of people of other faiths. This is the clear and central message in the Quran, and one that is conveniently ignored by the extremists. I am not too familiar with other religions, but I doubt if there is a religion on earth that supports the chauvinistic views of the extremists in that religion. And I doubt if there is anything in the hindu scripts based on which these hindu extremists you mention demand sikhs to consider themselves hindus.
Furthermore, if someone considers himself a christian I will consider him a christian without requiring him to answer a multiple choice exam on the new testament. If someone considers himself a hindu or a sikh or a jew or just plain human-person that is fine too. No tests required. Nor are muslims a ``chosen people`` - their actions will be judged as much as the actions of people of other faiths. This is the clear and central message in the Quran, and one that is conveniently ignored by the extremists. I am not too familiar with other religions, but I doubt if there is a religion on earth that supports the chauvinistic views of the extremists in that religion. And I doubt if there is anything in the hindu scripts based on which these hindu extremists you mention demand sikhs to consider themselves hindus.
#446 Posted by rsaxena on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
re: naqshabandi
{{except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword; it is known that it was the great sufis who converted most of the pagans in the subcontinent to Islam and salvation. Hazrat Sultan al Hind Khwaja Gharib Nawaz Ajmeri rahmatullah alayhi himself converted 90 lakh kafirs to Islam! Subhan Allah.}}
....yes, and NASA staged the landing on the moon in a Universal Studios set in Hollywood...
{{except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword; it is known that it was the great sufis who converted most of the pagans in the subcontinent to Islam and salvation. Hazrat Sultan al Hind Khwaja Gharib Nawaz Ajmeri rahmatullah alayhi himself converted 90 lakh kafirs to Islam! Subhan Allah.}}
....yes, and NASA staged the landing on the moon in a Universal Studios set in Hollywood...
#445 Posted by rsaxena on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
re: harimau
{I have lived and worked with people of all religions both in India and here. My family in India has had a Muslim as a full-time employee for the last 4 years. Yusuf pops off to the garage periodically to offer namaz while my Mom is clanging the bell during her puja and they seem not to have any problems with each other`s religious practices.}
i don`t doubt any of that...i was just referring to the patronizing (hence, corny) tone of your post to semipreciousme...
{I have lived and worked with people of all religions both in India and here. My family in India has had a Muslim as a full-time employee for the last 4 years. Yusuf pops off to the garage periodically to offer namaz while my Mom is clanging the bell during her puja and they seem not to have any problems with each other`s religious practices.}
i don`t doubt any of that...i was just referring to the patronizing (hence, corny) tone of your post to semipreciousme...
#444 Posted by Pankaj on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
Harimou
``As the years go by, you are likely to find your faith in the goodness of people, in humanity, shaken and shaken violently by events such as the Gujarat riots. But don`t lose your faith in the common man. Don`t lose your idealism. Don`t turn cynical even as you question what you see around you. In your daily life, commit random acts of kindness and senseless acts of charity to people you don`t know. You will go to your reward in afterlife knowing that you have done your little bit to make the world a slightly better place.
``
I would hazard a guess that you are perhaps this way in your real life :-). As they say, it is better to love and get hurt than to have never loved at all. Idealism needs to be nurtured; it is the only agent of change towards a better society. Our heroes should be unsung people who do their ``Karma`` without aspiring for its fruits. An honest police officer here, a dedicated administrator there, or an incorruptible judge make all the difference. These random instances of truthfullness,honesty,and adherence to values restore people`s faith in the vision of a better world. The vision may be an illusion, but it is worth pursuing.
Sincerely
``As the years go by, you are likely to find your faith in the goodness of people, in humanity, shaken and shaken violently by events such as the Gujarat riots. But don`t lose your faith in the common man. Don`t lose your idealism. Don`t turn cynical even as you question what you see around you. In your daily life, commit random acts of kindness and senseless acts of charity to people you don`t know. You will go to your reward in afterlife knowing that you have done your little bit to make the world a slightly better place.
``
I would hazard a guess that you are perhaps this way in your real life :-). As they say, it is better to love and get hurt than to have never loved at all. Idealism needs to be nurtured; it is the only agent of change towards a better society. Our heroes should be unsung people who do their ``Karma`` without aspiring for its fruits. An honest police officer here, a dedicated administrator there, or an incorruptible judge make all the difference. These random instances of truthfullness,honesty,and adherence to values restore people`s faith in the vision of a better world. The vision may be an illusion, but it is worth pursuing.
Sincerely
#443 Posted by Shah on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
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#442 Posted by ylh on March 18, 2002 11:04:23 pm
Naqsh to sax:
``except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword``
Ha .. Ha ha ... Ha... Ha ha ha ha ha ha... ha ha ... haaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa haa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... Ok I have stomach cramps now...
And this coming from someone who appreciating the Indian Musli Asif k`s call to Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhammad bin Qasim
``except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword``
Ha .. Ha ha ... Ha... Ha ha ha ha ha ha... ha ha ... haaa haaaaaaaa haaaaaaaaa haa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha... Ok I have stomach cramps now...
And this coming from someone who appreciating the Indian Musli Asif k`s call to Mahmud Ghaznavi and Muhammad bin Qasim
#440 Posted by roohi on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
Zafar #430
Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me? Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?
Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !
Hello! Hello! Can it be you are another Aussie-Desi from New Delhi like me? Now ofcourse I am stuck here in USA (Mr. R and family are from here) but I still have my Kangaroo/Koala passport and ALL my family is in in OZ. Which city are you from ?
Honestly I`ve made more trips to Australia in the last 7 years that I`ve lived here than to India. Just a sucker for punishment I guess - try doing a 27 hour, 3 plane, 2 toddlers in diapers, by yourself number and see if you come out sane !
#439 Posted by ylh on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
Alpha,
I have read many Indian Muslim authors bemoan the loss of Muslim Intelligentsia when Pakistan was formed. If the best of Muslims were these in my country, I can only imagine how pathetically ignorant Indian Muslims must be.
I have read many Indian Muslim authors bemoan the loss of Muslim Intelligentsia when Pakistan was formed. If the best of Muslims were these in my country, I can only imagine how pathetically ignorant Indian Muslims must be.
#438 Posted by ylh on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
Naqshbandi`s hallucinations:
``ylh i wish you would stop spreading the lie that ALL religious scholars were against JInnah; yes the DEOBANDIS did call him ``kafir e azam`` but it is an historic fact which you can check up that the BARELVI ulama and masses SUPPORTED Quaid e Azam and the Pakistan movement``
Questions:
1) Was Majlis e Ahrar `Deobandi`?
2) Was Jamaat e Islami `Deobandi`?
3) Was Ataullah Shah Bukhari of Dehli `Deobandi`?
4) Was Abu al Kalaam Azad `Deobandi`?
``AND Barelvis make up the VAST majority of Sunni Muslims in the Subcontinent. In fact without the support which many pirs with hundreds of thousands of murids gave to Jinnah throughout the length and breadth of United India Pakistan would never have come into existence.``
Pakistan Movement perhaps benefitted the most from two people after Jinnah, 1) Sir Zafrullah Khan 2) Sir Sultan Muhammad Agha Khan
a)Zafrullah Khan was an Ahmadi Muslim.
b)Sir Sultan Muhammad Agha Khan was an Ismaili Shiite.
c) Jinnah himself was a Khoja Shiite who had converted to 12er Shiism in the early 1920s. Frankly he didn`t give two hoots about any sectarian divisions whatsoever. Infact Poonawallah a few months back actually quoted Jinnah showing disdain for the Sunni religion as Arab imperialism.
You can make up these stories but the fact is that the Muslim masses unanimously rejected the Mullahs of Ahrar, JI, JUH and Congress choosing the Aligarh Westernists being led by a clean shaven well dressed whisky drinking swine eating London trained barrister instead, and you can`t live with that.
By the way Jinnah himself credited the creation of Pakistan to his type writer. So please give up these hallucinations of Pirs and Murids who really didn`t count much in the creation of Pakistan.
#437 Posted by ylh on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
Alpha Hussain,
Given the other nonsensical BS you have spouted on this board, I didn`t expect you to like Jinnah. Your kind the deobandi ulema were always against that great man... However, Viceroy Wavell reported to the India Office in 1946 rightly or wrongly `99% of the Muslims today follow Jinnah and are suspicious of the Congress`. And this man had a very unfavorable view of Jinnah.
Godot,You are absolutely right. Thankyou :)
Given the other nonsensical BS you have spouted on this board, I didn`t expect you to like Jinnah. Your kind the deobandi ulema were always against that great man... However, Viceroy Wavell reported to the India Office in 1946 rightly or wrongly `99% of the Muslims today follow Jinnah and are suspicious of the Congress`. And this man had a very unfavorable view of Jinnah.
Godot,You are absolutely right. Thankyou :)
#436 Posted by Naqshbandi on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
rsaxena,
except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword; it is known that it was the great sufis who converted most of the pagans in the subcontinent to Islam and salvation. Hazrat Sultan al Hind Khwaja Gharib Nawaz Ajmeri rahmatullah alayhi himself converted 90 lakh kafirs to Islam! Subhan Allah.
Yes the rulers were Muslims but these were territorial battles; they never forced ppl to become Muslims in their kingdoms. The sufis and ulama did that by the force of their personalities and the Truth which shone from them.
except for hindus no serious scholar of islam even in amongst the orientalists believes that islam spread in india via the sword; it is known that it was the great sufis who converted most of the pagans in the subcontinent to Islam and salvation. Hazrat Sultan al Hind Khwaja Gharib Nawaz Ajmeri rahmatullah alayhi himself converted 90 lakh kafirs to Islam! Subhan Allah.
Yes the rulers were Muslims but these were territorial battles; they never forced ppl to become Muslims in their kingdoms. The sufis and ulama did that by the force of their personalities and the Truth which shone from them.
#434 Posted by harimau on March 18, 2002 5:17:41 pm
Ref RSaxena #: 424
[congratulations..you win the Corniest Post of the Day award...]
I have lived and worked with people of all religions bo
[congratulations..you win the Corniest Post of the Day award...]
I have lived and worked with people of all religions bo