A Cultural Revolution?

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urstru1y #106

Agree. BTW, what is it about Indian cable tv that makes people crazy?

There is always someone requesting Govt of Pakistan to reconsider the ban on Indian cableTV either in Dawn, Jang letter to editor or someone complaining about someone having ``dish`` because he/she has money and get away from cable-ban.

We are moving to a new house in southern calif and what does my want first? yes. Zee/Star+.

Here I am thinking of mortgage and affordability and she thinks of nothing than cable. Shouldn`t CNN or Fox be enough? How about national geographic or discovery? Why Zee and star?

Help.

There is a country where Chinese and Indians came as fishermen, rubber-tappers, coolies, sugarcane farmers and soldiers. They are still minorities there. Chinese suffered a great deal during struggle against communist insurgency because many of them sympathized with communists. Later on they suffered during ethnic riots and their businesses burned and looted.

The Chinese now are the leaders of business community, educated elite with better per capita income than the majority Malays whereas Indians (mostly Tamils) are still at the bottom. The Chinese success there has nothing to do with the help from Chinese diaspora worldwide. It is better values system that helps them to move up. China is doing good even under authoritarian system and they are expected to do even better under democracy, if and when it arrives.

Right now China`s per capita income is about 700 dollars. It is abundantly clear that China with 700 dollars per capita looks much better than other countries with 700 dollar per capita income like Egypt, Philippines and several central American and African countries.

Ref shammi #: 124

[Looks like what little news that manages to get out is not hunky dory, and things are warming up. It doesn`t take too much bring a regime crashing down. In India, it may be the mishandling of a crisis. In Russia, in 1917, it was rioting at bread lines. In China, it may be as simple as mass unemployment. So, think again before you wish something like that to India.]

I suppose you don`t think there is no mass unemployment in India.

China and India face the same problem: massive overpopulatiion. Even if we develop a welfare system that provides food for all the people, you are going to find that all the unemployed people will think of some mischief or other. China at least used its control of its masses to bacome a manufacturing powerhouse. What has India done except feed socialist fantasies to its people so that every Indian thinks that it is his birthright to get a while collar job with the government and not have to do a scrap of work?

re: TAhmed

{{And name calling Chinese ``chapta`` is very clever indeed, really impressive coming from a grown man.}}

it is just a description of a physical trait...just like we desis are brownies, they are chaptas...what is there to be offended about...

re: RSaxena # 122

``prem a.k.a dude who thinks 12-head`s harassment of women is fun``

No. I don`t think that is or was fun. Let us just say you know very little about me.

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...Don`t try to be the new super-brahmins of India:-)``...``

I am sorry, but I didn`t understand what that meant (I mean what is a `super-brahmin`, and how will not being one deliver India to nirvana?). Anyway, here is what is going in the worker`s paradise which has thus far denied them the right to collective bargaining:

``In one dramatic example, every weekday since March 1, tens of thousands of irate workers have gathered outside the headquarters of China`s most glorified oil field, at Daqing in the far northeast, charging official deceit and betrayal in what some experts have called the largest protests over labor issues since the Communist Party took power in 1949...Labor disputes over money and benefits, often peppered with charges of official corruption, have become frequent as China seeks to streamline or shed its bloated state- owned factories. If reports in recent days from Daqing and several other sites are any guide, the scale of unrest is likely to grow in the months and years ahead as China opens more industries to competition under World Trade Organization rules...Millions of middle-aged workers, in particular, say they feel betrayed by a system that long gave them honor and security, if little money, and that now seems intent on discarding them...THE CHINSE PRESS HAS NOT BEEN ALLOWED TO COVER THE DISUPTES...Some 10,000 miners in the town of Fushun, similarly furious over severance packages, have blocked highways and railroad tracks, according to local residents...Textile workers are striking in the western province of Sichuan, charging that state owners are selling off their factory`s assets rather than trying to save it

`` END QUOTE

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/19/international/asia/19CHIN.html

Looks like what little news that manages to get out is not hunky dory, and things are warming up. It doesn`t take too much bring a regime crashing down. In India, it may be the mishandling of a crisis. In Russia, in 1917, it was rioting at bread lines. In China, it may be as simple as mass unemployment. So, think again before you wish something like that to India. Cheers.

re: dost-mittar

{{Doesn`t matter what I want.}}

come on, that is a cheap cop-out...doesn`t matter what any of us on chowk say about anything...so why bother discussing anything?...might as well stick to mocking each other for some immature and cheap entertainment...

{{The point is that we have a system of governance in India in which it is extremely difficult to implement even those changes on which there is a very high degree of societal consensus.}}

name one such change...please get out of that canadian snow and consider reality...india is so damn big and diverse that every measure has a bigass group of people opposing it...of course we could follow your advice and roll tanks over all of them, but most of us indians don`t want such a country...democracy and personal liberty come with a price...

{{The BJP now wants to implement the same policies it opposed tooth and nail when it was in the opposition and the Congress is now opposing the same policies it espoused, not because of a change of heart but to win cheap popularity...}}

what the BJP wants and what it can do are two different things...the minute the BJP crosses the line, its govt. will come crashing down as the NDA members withdraw support...and don`t forget that the supreme body of the land is the Supreme Court, and as it has shown it has the final word on everything in India....that should be obvious to you...else that temple in ayodhya would`ve been constructed a long time ago...

... you seem too enamored with communism and dictatorships and have forgotten the checks and balances of a democratic system...

re: prem a.k.a dude who thinks 12-head`s harassment of women is fun

{{He has repeatedly argued that religious matters be kept strictly private (although once he and I differed over the desirability of Muslim women wearing burqua in the US). Aren`t you being unfair to him?}}

i made no specific reference to TAhmed...i never said `you` in my response to his post...i chose my words carefully to describe a hypothetical but very real situation, hoping to elicit his and others` opinions on it...

...next time read more carefully before rudely interjecting...

dost-mittar #114:

...`islah` shukriyay kay saath note karli gayee hay...ummeed hay is dafa maaf kardaiN gay aap;)...hum jaldi maiN thay aur oos post ki taareef karna chahtay thay...bus itni si baat thee...khuda/bhagwan aap ko khush rakhay...

...aur...aur kya likhaiN...aapnay itnay zore say AUR likh hee diya hay:)

rgds,

t

RSaxena #113
Just incidentally, there was a woman in Florida who appeared on MSNBC or Fox in full burqa who is resisting the Florida law which mandates a photo showing the person`s face with the drivers license.

For the record, though, I don`t support the law in Singapore, though I`m unsure about the burqua business. A person needs to be recognisable by the authorities to be protected at the very least, forget about public security concerns about faceless citizens.

Layman #111 I dont have any hard figures on IT vs. agriculture and foreign direct investment to India handy (a quick check on the internet proved fruitless). No doubt India, being still largely agricutlural) could not achieve 6-7% growth rates if agriculture was not moving forward as well. I do remember reading a few times about India`s IT-led growth and it does seem that IT is an important factor not just in terms of absolute nuimbers but also in terms of (a) the quality of jobs it creates (i.e. white coller, highly paid, internationally marketable) vs the traditional sectors and (b) the future potential. Also, foreign direct investment from world class companies like microsoft in India is no doubt indirectly the result of the familiarity these companies have with Indian expatriates.

As I mentioned, less tangible aspects of the Indian expat community are perhaps even more important - it would be interesting to see how much the Indian movie industry, the Indian airline industry and so on earns from ``domestic`` vs. expat Indians.

Ultimately, of course, the engine of economic growth remains basically the developed world, with expats providing one means to hook this engine to the third world countries.

Rsaxena #113 At this point you are merely blowing hot air. And with the help of hypothetical situations that reflect your need to put down Pakistanis/muslims, and have nothing to do with reality: how many times have you read about bearded muslims suing American bosses for the right to have a beard?? not once I bet, and I certainly have not. The reality is that it is only sikhs who sometimes sue for the right to maintain their headdress and beards, not muslims, and you know that but are not honest enough to say it since it is muslims you are trying to insult at this time.

And name calling Chinese ``chapta`` is very clever indeed, really impressive coming from a grown man.

re: RSaxena # 113

Saxena, you persist in misconstruing tahmed`s words. He made no distinction between chapta or nonchapta. His stand has been clear. Whether in the US or chaptaland, Hindu, Muslim, or Christian, religion and religious symbols should not be matters of public dispute. He has repeatedly argued that religious matters be kept strictly private (although once he and I differed over the desirability of Muslim women wearing burqua in the US). Aren`t you being unfair to him?

re: TAhmed

{{ Yes, very much so. The decision has the result of students seeing each other as fellow students first and last, not as ``Christians, Muslims, Tamils, and Chinese``. }}

so it is OK if a chapta violates your right to practice your religion freely (including wearing hijab, if so desired), but if a muslim had a beard for religious reasons and an american boss told him to shave it off, he`d be first in line to sue and claim some cash...or if it happened india, it would be grounds to start rioting...amazing...

I loved this piece!

tahmed #94:

``India`s jump in GNP from what used to be jokingly referred to as the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4% to something like 6-7% (and what a difference 1% makes in just a decade!!) is in large part due to expat Indians and the investments they have helped bring to India.``

It would be interesting to see how much expat Indians have contributed to Indian economy. I think it has been overrated. Unlike Chinese expats, Indian expats are not keen on investing in the mother country. Exception being the Gulf workers who repatriate money to support their families back home.

I think India`s jump in GDP had more to do with the fact that we have had eight years of good monsoons in a row (compared to several years of drought in the mid and late eighties) and the indegenous software industry than investment by expat Indians.

dost-mittar #98:

``If I were part of India`s chattering classes, I wouldn`t mind trading off a few restrictions on shooting off my mouth for adequate food, shelter, health and education of all my countrymen and countrywomen.``

I generally respect your views, but have to disagree with the one above. What kind of restrictions do you have in mind? Lack of roti-kapda-makaan / healthcare etc in India has nothing to do with freedom, there is no trade-off necessary. It is all due to politics and corruption. The govt has bought wheat at such high prices (to please the Punjabi farmers) that the poor cannot afford it, states are not lifting their PDS quotas at these prices. No wonder the state granaries are overflowing to an extent that the govt has now decided to store wheat in the open, while people in Orissa are starving. All the time, farmers merrily increase growth of wheat without having to worry about supply-demand issues; why should they? the govt is here to buy whatever they produce at high prices.

On corruption, Rajiv Gandhi when PM mentioned that less than 5 percent of govt funds reached the intended people, rest being siphoned off at various levels. If corruption was reduced by 50%, Indians would have ten times the facilities that they have, for the same amount of govt spend.

You may be aware that MPs have discretionary spend of Rs 2 crores (it used to be 1 crore) per year each for their constituency. They can sanction money to be spent for say building a public toilet or a bus-stop etc within that amount and the govt does it - no possibility of corruption by MP as the amount does not go through his hands. Govt of Bihar has a similar scheme with limit of Rs 75 lakhs per MLA. Guess what, most of the money lies unspent as MLAs are not interested in working for people when there is no money to be made.

re: dost-mittar

{{What you are telling is no secret. But as I said elsewhere, the Chinese leadership has decided to restrict individual freedoms in the interest of an orderly transition to be a part of the developed world and avoid the chaos and anarchy that took over the Soviet Union.}}

so tell us, should india start curtaling individual freedoms to make an `orderly transition` to the `developed world?`...should we ban and imprison political opponents and have one party take over the lok sabha b.c. it is easier to pass laws?...throw the media in prison for writing about riots, b.c. it hurts foreign investor confidence?...ban burkas and turbans for social uniformity like they did in singapore?...maybe start a forced sterilization drive?...run tanks over people who protest labor reforms and privatization?...or how about throwing out the legal system in favor of one managed by the the one party running the government?...maybe round-up the hurriyat leaders from kashmir and hang them?....

Rsaxena #85 You write: ``Last month Singapore banned Muslim girls from wearing hijab/headscarves to school. There was a hue and cry but the government said ``NO`` with the implicit threat to imprison (and probably cane) anyone creating a public protest or nuisance over it. That was the end of the debate. The message was clear: All children will wear a uniform and attend schools as Singaporeans, not Christians, Muslims, Tamils, and Chinese.

You still think it is `enlightened`?``

Yes, very much so. The decision has the result of students seeing each other as fellow students first and last, not as ``Christians, Muslims, Tamils, and Chinese``. In addition, school uniforms have a purpose: to get the student`s mind off appearances and onto more important things. Traditionally, appearances related to rich vs. poor, so students from poor families are not intimidated by those from rich families dressed in expensive clothes. Now appearances are being used by people to create ethnic and religious divisions that have to date proved very damaging and provided virtually no value. All this stuff about cultural diversity is fine, but it needs to be subordinated to the basic humanity of all individuals.

PS: Incidentally, I was not saying the Singapore model was better or worse for China than, say the US model. I was just giving possible directions we may see China headed.

PPS: I normally do not wish to interact with people who routinely abuse other ethnic or religious communities or nationalities on chowk (except perhaps to exchange insults for what it is worth), but I thought this question you had was a reasonable and interesting one.

harimau #105:

...very perceptive...a tad harsh on them biharis...one of your best...(too date!)...as the urdu saying goes...allah karay zoar-e-qal`m zyadah!...;)

rgds,

t

Hey all! let`s come down back to earth. this board is about cable TV in Pakistan, not India/China. like I said before, I want my ZeeTV, StarNews, AajTak channels from India in Pakistan.

This China vs. India question has many facets. One sees the modern highways in Shanghai and Beijing and wonders when India will have such highways. The answer is both now and never. There is a Bombay-Pune highway under construction (with about 100 out of 180 kilometers already finished) but you have to get out of Bombay until Panwel before you can get on the highway. That is because anytime the government attempts to expropriate land inside the city for the highway through eminent domain, there is a lawsuit filed by some interested party. Just the fact that near Bandra a flyover is being held up because the government decided to build a few stores under the overpass and somebody in the neighborhood sued claiming that the increased traffic caused by the shops is an infringement on his right to a peaceful life is an example of how progress can be held up. We are not talking about the flyover causing this old fart a problem; the fact that there will be convenience stores underneath it in space that would otherwise be wasted is causing this idiot problems. This in Bombay where they are building 52 flyovers to improve traffic and have built quite a few so far. Can Bombay ever look like Shanghai? Probably not. You will have to take over several older buildings and demolish them and widen the roads in the older parts of the city which will be an impossible task in India. Is there a court system in China where an ordinary citizen can file lawsuits similar to the one I quoted? I don`t think so. But are there changes in the Bombay skyline? Yes, newer apartment complexes are 15+ stories as opposed to the 4-story, no-elevator buildings that used to go up in the 60s and 70s. If you look at Vashi/New Bombay, you are surprised to find nice-looking blocks of apartment buildings built to attract the NRIs.

As states become more prosperous, you will find them building better roads in India. Will there be an interstate system similar to the one in US? Not likely in our lifetimes.

Are Indians starving? If you don`t have a job and no family support, yes. Is there adequate foodgrains to feed the entire country? Yes.

Will India ever have sewer systems and will Indians stop sh!tting by the roadside? No. The Chinese have a slightly better sense of hygiene but, even better, they are not ashamed of doing a menial job. Thus, the person employed to clean toilets will clean them properly in China but not in India.

The difference is that the Chinese are willing to learn and do things the way the rest of the world does. Indians have the sense that they know better than anybody else in the world and they will learn nothing from anybody else. A case in point is where a government official who hasn`t either seen snow, mountainous surroundings, or snowmobiles determining that the Indian Army in Kashmir doesn`t need snowmobiles.

Will Indians ever catch up to China in manufacturing? No. Can China catch up to India in IT? Yes. Can China do what India is doing in biotechnology? They already are doing so.

Do average Indians in progressive states enjoy a decent standard of living? Yes. Is there any hope for Bihar? Only as testing ground for atmosperic nuclear tests. Can we get the Bengalis to stop endless political discussions and actually do something? No. Can we get the Marwaris from taking over all the trading companies in India? No. Can we reduce corruption in India? No. Is there any hope of getting new cars in India? Yes. The high-end Mercedes selling for Rs. 6 million is sold out for the next two years. What will the average Indian drive? 1986-design Suzuki 800s called Maruti because the factory is owned by the government and it was started by Sanjay Gandhi. Is the train service good in India? Yes, unless you had to travel thru Godhra.

Yaaaaawn!

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re:Dost

``...Chinese liberalisation would take place in an orderly fashion...``

The story on the transition to `liberalization` has only JUST BEGUN -- too early to count your chickens, and to ignore the numerous pitfalls that lie ahead. I suppose that the discovery of the wonders of market capitalism after 120 million dead in the Great Leap Forward is orderly enough for you (or the 50,000 dead in Vietnam to teach `Vietnam a lesson` made by an inner coterie of the politburo, or the 1 million dead in the Korean War). So are the forced abortions, the dislocation and the financial black hole that is the 3 Gorges Dam, or the insolvency of the banking system, or the hatchet jobs accomplished in the anti-crime `strike hard` campaigns, or the nexus between the sale of human organs and hurriedly conducted public executions. Have you read about the Chinese mafia in the prosperous southern cities and their respect for the law? US law enforcement agencies are already billing them as more brutal and ruthless than their Italian cousins. But no sir, you are impressed by flashy military epaulettes and shiny brass belt buckles. The Taiwanese are so impressed by this Short March to Liberalization that they are openly debating whether or not to ditch the One Country theory for the first time in their history.

``...the law regardless of their personal sympathies...``

Let me clarify the facts on one thing -- the military garrison that `enforced the law` in Tiananmen was brought from rural areas far outside Beijing (the Beijing chaps were suspected of having sympathies for the demonstrators). These guys had no sympathies for the demonstrators.

``...The Chinese leadership has taken a very calculated decision that the collective societal interests...``

Ah -- why does that remind me so much of Mrs. Gandhi`s style -- `I know what is best for you`?

Read the `Tiananmen Papers` and see for yourself how `calculated decisions` are made by `righteous` politicians in `public interest` with nary a hint of opportunism, greed, power plays, personal aggrandizement and self-preservation.

``...If I were part of India`s chattering classes, I wouldn`t mind trading off a few restrictions on shooting off my mouth...``

And which particular restrictions would you like to impose (in the Mrs. Gandhi style of `I know what is best for you`?) on Indians from your perch in Canada?

Re Tahmed321

``... India`s jump in GNP from what used to be jokingly referred to as the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4% to something like 6-7% (and what a difference 1% makes in just a decade!!) is in large part due to expat Indians and the investments they have helped bring to India...``

I think that expat Indians have certainly helped, not hindered, the increase in the GDP rate. However, the best service that expat Indians have rendered has been by giving ideas, rather than by investing capital (the latter has helped, but the former has helped far more). The establishement of an overseas funded call center for GE does less to help the ordinary worker, than the decisions to open up telecom, media, airlines lift subsidies, sell public sector white elephants, and give more economic freedoms to the average guy to set up a business. There is a study out there somewhere which says that if the states ever figure out how to sell off the state-owned electric companies, that alone will increase the GDP by 1-2%

re: hamidm

...if we are to go by your posts, the tooth fairy has moved to china..

the latest issue of the Far Eastern Economic Review says the leading cause of death amongst chinese between the ages of 15 and 34 is suicide....1 in 5...a majoriy of them women...one of the few countries in the world to hold that distinction...

i suppose the women are jumping into their woks because the airline lost their louis vuitton luggage, the Shanghai Four Seasons gave away the penthouse suite to someone else, the Prada handbag is sold out, and Ferragamo discontinued their favorite slinky black sandal...ah the pressures of life in modern china...

hamidm/shammi/dost mittar: Actually, the people to watch are not the Chinese in China but the expat Chinese, and not the Indians in India but the expat Indians. The expat Chinese (in the far east and in north america and other places as well) were considered (by Drucker) the third largest economy in the world after the US and Japan. And they are the engine of growth there. India`s jump in GNP from what used to be jokingly referred to as the ``hindu rate of growth`` of 4% to something like 6-7% (and what a difference 1% makes in just a decade!!) is in large part due to expat Indians and the investments they have helped bring to India. The ``expat Pakistani GNP`` is considered by Burki (who studied this) to be about the same as the national GNP!!

And this is just the superficial aspects. Technological and global economic changes are like the trade winds, and most fundamentally the IDEA that poverty need not and should not any longer be taken for granted is taking increasing hold. So, I dont think it is India OR China, but India AND China that are both going to catch up with the developed world by the end of this century if not earlier.

RSaxena #85

“You still think it is `enlightened`?”

…not really…considering the fact that sikh boys are allowed to wear turbans to school…

akash:

``Any Pakistani knows any link where these beauties can be seen. I am just curious :-)``

...um....beauties DEF. being a relative word here....

Re: akash

{{Any Pakistani knows any link where these beauties can be seen. I am just curious :-)}}

www.playboy.com

re: dost-mittar

{{China is too big to be run like Singapore.`` (Rsaxena)

One only has to watch the TV reports from China and India to see the contrast - clean roads, well-fed and well-clothed people (the average height of a Chinese must have gone up by a couple of inches in one generation!), army, police and other govt. ))

dear man, what are you rambling about? in my post, including the comment you reposted above, do you see any mention of India, let alone a comparison between India and China?...so why are you ranting on about india vs. china in response to my post?...

BUT since you have decided to rant on about irrelevant topics, i`ll let you in on a secret...in china, you can get the sarson ka saag beaten out of you if you`re caught with a camera in the wrong areas, and are broadcasting `negative` images of the country....so of course you will not see the poor chaptas and the squalor...how do you think they won the Olympics?...they drove the poor mufuckas off the streets.....

Re: Hamidm

``...all i can tell you is if the chinese can afford to spend ten billion on the olympics they must be doing something right...``

Maybe Pakistan should have had a megalomaniac like Indira Gandhi as PM for a few years. She, too believed in staging massive tamashas at the taxpayer`s expense. I got to see the N.Korean soccer team riot in a game with the Saudis at the newly built, ultramodern and grandiose stadium (amongst many such wonders in Delhi) named after (who else) her father in the `82 Asian Games. Had she been alive, I have no doubt that India would have made a bid for the Olympics too. She also hosted the Commonwealth Heads of Govt Meeting in Goa that year (not to mention the Non-Aligned Meeting). If staging such grand events in the style of the ancient Romans is proof positive of `having arrived` then economists should find something better to do.

shammi

.. waiting for china to collapse ..

.... and most people in the muslim world believe that america is going to collapse before the 27th of november 2013 - because of materialism, ladeeniyat, decadence, beysharmi, beyhayai and, of course, interest based banking ........ and if you believe the wsj, people in tokyo will start rioting next monday .....

.... all i can tell you is if the chinese can afford to spend ten billion on the olympics they must be doing something right ....and no, chinese cities are not clean because they don`t have rural migrants .... the hukou law that prevented migrants from getting public housing and schooling ( things unknown in india and pakistan ) was always difficult to implement and has now been officially relaxed ...... china`s cities are clean because they have discovered modern wonders like sewers, pavement and clothes ...... let`s not worry about china - the first thing indians have to do is put on some decent clothes and stop defecating in the street ....and that goes for the pakis as well .....

Re: Dost-Mittar

``...army, police and other govt. officials behaving smartly in their smart uniforms, even the notorious Chinese prisons seem to be cleaner than most Indian hospitals...``

You couldn`t see the roll of my eyes as I read the above and thought about Tiananmen Square, the Great Leap Forward, the Chinese Gulag, the Cultural Revolution, the public executions in stadiums, the corruption at the highest levels of government that you never hear about...

scout #74: ``you don`t have to laud Punjabi/Pushtu movies just because they are predominantly Pakistani. let`s admit our flaws. trash is trash.``

You are correct, in a way. But trash is a relative term. I have hardly seen any Pushtu movies, but I grew up on Punjabi movies. How, you may (or may not) ask?

What I said in my previous reply is true. I spent a great deal of my late teens and early twenties, living in remote corners of Punjab and NWFP (thanks to the military). And when I say Punjabi movies were the only non-VCR entertainment available, I am being serious. We used to watch two a week. You would be surprised to learn how many people in the Pakistani military, including me, have risked their careers to sneak into Punjabi movies, after curfew hours. They must be offering some entertainment.

These movies tend to grow on you. They are much better than Urdu movies (I heard Urdu movies are getting better now). Their music is far more advanced than that of Urdu movies.

Most importantly, these movies actually do present the main source of entertainment for the male Pakistani, i.e. the 99% of Pakistan which does not have access to the Internet, or to Alhamra, or to Ricky Martin CDs. That is the actual Pakistan. Not Chowk nor The Friday Times. It is the crowd that follows Anjuman and not Meg Ryan. Pakistani big city folk do not realize this, because they have never lived in the 66% rural Pakistan (the actual Pakistan), or amongst the rickshaw drivers and the military hawaldars (the majority Pakistanis).

So if a country is realized by its arts and entertainment, then the Pushtu and Punjabi (and their Sindhi and Baluchi equivalents) are the actual Pakistan. Whether they are trashy or not, is really a relative comparison.

Hence my previous comment, ``Don`t knock it till you have tried it,`` i.e. first live in the real Pakistan and see the real Pakistanis, go watch these movies and then realize their faults and virtues (you may have mistaken this comment to my suggesting that you should become a herione in these movies. An interesting prospect, but I believe it is not in your career plans :-)).

Moral of the story: To the, ``real`` Paksitan (at least the men; i don`t know what the, ``real`` Pakistani women do for entertainment), these, ``trashy`` movies are all they have got. And they consider them to be as sophisticated as you may consider Olivier`s Hamlet or Wells` Othello.

One should respect the, ``real`` Pakistan`s choices in entertainment.

Hamidm

``....anjuman and musarrat shaheen, and before them, mumtaz, firdaus and naghma were to die for - absolutely rubenesque .....

``

Any Pakistani knows any link where these beauties can be seen. I am just curious :-)

Re: Hamidm

“….....most pakis will also be quick to point out that regardless of billions in software exports most indians have never been on a motorway and are slowly starving to death ...”

And they would be mostly right (although not on the starving to death bit, and the motorway issue too is also about to solved – little consolation though). I assume that you have been to both China and India (in some of the most remote villages and small towns). Indian envy is due to China’s seemingly stupendous economic performance (not over their political system), and I have my doubts that their economy is as strong as advertised, and Indian envy is sometimes misplaced.

“…do you find the poverty, filth and misery that you find in bombay or karachi ....”

I believe that the Chinese strictly enforce internal labor migration laws, and one needs some sort of a visa to travel between provinces – these keep the cities looking pretty. A lot of the misery that you describe in Bombay is due to uncontrolled mass migration from the villages. However, though the living conditions may be squalid, these people are not uniformly poor. (I was shocked to learn in Delhi this month that the maid who cleans the floors in our house and washes clothes, has a washing machine in her home, and sent her daughter to Bangkok for a honeymoon!). Where prosperous Indians are able to keep the cows from destroying their flowerbeds, and crapping on the lawn, those neighborhoods look pretty too – but they are derided as being elitist.

And regarding your observations of cities and starbucks, here is what Gordon Chang (author of Coming Collapse of China, Random House, 2001) says:

QUOTE…after focusing on facts rather than theory and looking at the conditions behind the spectacular numbers, Gordon Chang presents the People`s Republic as a study in wasted potential: ``Peer beneath the surface, and there is a weak China, one that is in long-term decline and even on the verge of collapse. The symptoms of decay are to be seen everywhere.`` For a nation that has always taken a long view of history, time is quickly running out. Chang believes China has about five years to get its economy in order before it suffers a crippling financial collapse--a timeline he seriously doubts can be met… By failing to complete its reformation, China has maintained an illusion of progress, Chang explains, but in reality has caused more problems than opportunities for would-be entrepreneurs and foreign investors. Because reform has not been fast enough or comprehensive enough, China is unable to benefit from its modernization or keep up technologically with much of the world. END QUOTE

“…even the numbers are impressive - no one doubts the $260 billion in exports…”

Yes, full credit there – however exports are at the mercy of the West (mostly the US), and it is just as easy to shift the manufacturing base (with a few % points in additional manufacturing costs) to other countries, should the politics between the US and China nosedive on any number of issues

“…a latte grande is almost three bucks there is always a line…”

When I was in Moscow, I was impressed by the bevy of Western food chains. However, in my next trip to Murmansk (2000 km to the north) I could not find even a decent restaurant. How many of the lining up to buy the latte grande are natives working in state-run enterprises, by far the vast majority of workers?

Re: Tahmed321

“…However, Japan and Germany afer WWII achieved this transition without such trauma…”

One could argue that the trauma for Japan and German was the complete destruction of their economies, cities and infrastructure. The new order was built with the help of benign occupation forces, and not without substantial external help. E. Germany, did not reach its full potential, due to the luck of the draw. Therefore, in my opinion Japan and Germany do not qualify as nations that managed the transition smoothly. There was a lot of bloodshed in the pro-democracy movement of ’89, and the next upheaval may come from the same source if not from the peasants. If China is lucky, there may not be any bloodshed, but there will certainly be a breakdown of law and order. Even today, the law in China is archaic, and routinely violated. Corruption is worse than even India. These forces will be strengthened by a revolution.

re: hamidm # 82

True, many Indians (perhaps most) do suffer from China envy. I certainly do. :)

re: TAhmed

{{Or perhaps will it find some other model e.g. as in Singapore (a kind of an enlightened but ``controlled`` democracy).}}

China is too big to be run like Singapore.

Last month Singapore banned Muslim girls from wearing hijab/headscarves to school. There was a hue and cry but the government said ``NO`` with the implicit threat to imprison (and probably cane) anyone creating a public protest or nuisance over it. That was the end of the debate. The message was clear: All children will wear a uniform and attend schools as Singaporeans, not Christians, Muslims, Tamils, and Chinese.

You still think it is `enlightened`?

shammi #81 The transition from a controlled to a market economy has certainly been traumatic for Russia and much of east europe. However, Japan and Germany afer WWII achieved this transition without such trauma. In case of China, the market economy was created as a deliberate decision after the death of Mao. HongKong with it`s capitalist economy par excellence was absorbed intact by China in 1999 and kept this way. I think the big question is whether the Chinese will successfully achieve the transition from a one-party political structure to a more democratic one without trauma (i.e. bloodshed and breakdown of law and order). Or perhaps will it find some other model e.g. as in Singapore (a kind of an enlightened but ``controlled`` democracy). The world could certainly do with less traumatic transitions, whether economic or political.

Shammi #81

If China would evolve sooner and become a fully capitalistic country with full political rights and along with its industrial base competes equally with US, then you would see

more Asians and even (europeans) seeking asylum in

CHINA like North Koreans are doing now.

That would be an interesting scenario.

shammi

.....china envy ? .....most pakis will also be quick to point out that regardless of billions in software exports most indians have never been on a motorway and are slowly starving to death ...

..... forget about the numbers - seeing is believing, and it is not just shanghai .... i know misery loves company, and the subcontinent is perhaps the most miserable place on earth, but you have to give the devil his due ... nowhere in china, not even in some of the most remote villages and small towns, do you find the poverty, filth and misery that you find in bombay or karachi ....

..... even the numbers are impressive - no one doubts the $260 billion in exports (44 for India and a paltry 9 billion for pakistan), mostly manufactured goods .... in order to generate these exports a trillion dollar plus GDP is quite plausible .....but like i said, forget the numbers and go see for yourself - china is not in the same league as india and pakistan, not even close ...... and the best part is that you are never far from a starbuck`s - there must be over fifty in beijing and shanghai alone and even though a latte grande is almost three bucks there is always a line ........ i think starbucks is a much better measure of relative affluence than the economist`s big mac index - only lunatics or people with money to burn will pay three bucks for a drink that costs 17 cents !

Re: Tahmed321

I have no reason to doubt your sources on China`s modernization - indeed there are numerous symbols of China`s rising economy. My reasoning was based upon the fact that the world has been fooled once before already (size and performance of Soviet Union`s economy), and many of the reasons that caused that disaster are still present in China (with a few exceptions that do not fundamentally change the reasons for suspecting the numbers). Indeed, not too long ago, a firm that I once worked for was boasting that their consulting services had raised Enron`s market capitalization by $30bn in the hay days of the tech boom! Today, they do not even mention it in their slick marketing. The reason to suspect China`s numbers is that a closed system is rigged in favor of providing biased information to the Politburo, and there is a lack of checks and balances. Senator Moynihan was the lone voice who correctly warned about the true size of the Soviety economy, but at the time his viewpoint was not very popular in the Pentagon or the CIA who had all sorts of sources, facts and figures to back themselves up.

No country, much less one of China`s size, has successfully made a transition from a dictatorship to a democratic, market-economy without any social/economic disruption. China still has this hurdle to cross.

scout

``you don`t have to laud Punjabi/Pushtu movies just because they are predominantly Pakistani. let`s admit our flaws. trash is trash.``

..... i hate to admit it, but i think maula jat and zidi are classics ....anjuman and musarrat shaheen, and before them, mumtaz, firdaus and naghma were to die for - absolutely rubenesque .....

..... it is a ``man`` thing - we are also fascinated by the three stooges and the road runner .... beep, beep !

Shammi #72 I understand from people who have been keeping an eye on China that the growth is indeed quite real. On top of that they have their population under control. What we are watching is a modernization of China (and many other countries) at an unprecendented speed. As is true for much of the rest of the world. The only difference is that ``speed`` is a relative concept and in terms of modernization of human societies I think it has to be measured in ``fractions of modernity achieved per generation`` rather than in ``miles per hour`` with cars, and more like ``millimeters per year`` in case of continental drifts. Too bad. It would have been nice to be able to live to see a day when the misery one sees in developing countries was gone, and the billions of lives wasted searching for the next meal in dirty streets around the world were put to proper use like searching for the next new object in the galaxy or the next new scientific principle.

Scout,

Agreed on all counts.

Tahmed

Thanks for the poem...I can`t help remembering Emily D`s poem ``Much Madness is the Divinest Sense`` from time to time

Hamidm

What is happening in Egypt may be mirrored by what`s happening in Pakistan-not that I wan`t to make generalizations. I would like to get some more info on imprisoned dissidents in Pakistan. What really gets my goat in the El- Sadaawi piece, is that any idiot can drag any woman, intellectual, dissident into a surreal process of legal and ``spiritual based`` lunacy.

Urstruly,

I have entertained some rather distasteful notions from you in the interests of carrying on a debate, in a manner that I believed was intellectually sincere. Let it be on the record that you will not reciprocate.

Scout

After reading your post I ran a self-analysis and have come to the conclusion that I am one of those ``psuedo-religious-breed-from-Paksitan-who-have-no-clue-about-spirituality``. Absolutely, no punn intended. As a matter of fact, to me, spirituality means, sitting down on floor in lotus position, cross-legged, with your hands resting on your knees, palms facing up, middle fingers making a ring with thumbs, breathing deep breaths, and imagining blue lights surrounding you. Once again I remind you that there is no punn intended. I would really like to know what spirituality is, is it religious spirituality or non-religious; what does a person has to do to become spiritual. I have never explored this avenue-my area of interest always has been, politics, juresprudence, law, and economics.

saminashah #64, ``Deceit, thy name is man.``

why even bother with them? unfortunately, the pseudo-religious breed hailing from Pakistan are the worst...those who don`t have a clue about spirituality, but have tons of nonsense to say about the religion they think they understand.

and then there are those pseudo-patriots who on the one hand cry ``Pakistan Zindabad`` and on the other wish Pakistan was European.

re: sprout

{{by the way, i don`t remember addressing you, but if you insist on interacting with me...well hey, i`m flattered.}}

you just pepper your posts with references to the Great RSaxena...it`s ok...i`m flattered, i really am...just don`t go overboard with it...everything in moderation...might have to pull out the mosquito net otherwise...

Urstruly #55,

good for you

Romair #56,

you don`t have to laud Punjabi/Pushtu movies just because they are predominantly Pakistani. let`s admit our flaws. trash is trash.

Re TAhmed # 70

``As usual, Maulana Hazrat SheikhPr Naqshbandi Sahib of Avonabad in Wilayat had already warned women of this problem centuries ago``

Just to get Hazrat Sheikhpir sahib`s full name correct - it is Maulana Hazart Wali Miyan Sheikhpir Naqshbandi. Even though Hazrat Sheikhpir sahib had said ``a Gulabo by any other name...`` let us not fail him.

Re: cutandpaste

``An Indian visits China and sends an e-mail...``

Well, it seems that there is more than meets the eye when one looks at China`s impressive economic performance. There are strong reasons to suspect that the numbers are cooked up. This is what the Economist says:

``In the three years between 1997 and 2000, for example, China`s GDP officially grew by 24.7%. Yet energy consumption dropped by 12.8% in the same period. Mr Rawski argues that this cannot be adequately explained by more efficient energy consumption or the rapid growth of industries requiring less energy...Another clue comes from the civil-aviation industry. Chinese airline passengers belong to the richest part of the population, whose incomes are rising faster than average. Passenger traffic should therefore grow faster than disposable income, a main component when calculating GDP based on national income. But Mr Rawski notes that, despite plunging ticket prices in 1998, passenger miles rose by only 2.2% on domestic routes between 1997 and 1998. In those years the economy was officially said to have grown by 8.8% and 7.8% respectively.`` END QUOTE

So, it seems that political pressures often cloud the real measures of performance. The REAL economic performance of China may not have been very impressive at all (upper estimate of GDP growth rate of 2% in `98, `99, 3% in `00, and 4% in `01) according to Thomas Rawski of the University of Pittsburgh. The lower estimates are negative and quite horrible.

The above also is consistent with my OTHER source of reliable information, ie. Tom Clancy the author of numerous techno-thrillers with often a good measure of realism. His fiction book `The Bear and The Dragon` describes how the Chinese statisticians had both their own politburo and the rest of world fooled with their stupendous economic performance.

If the Chinese are lying through their teeth, reality will surely catch up fast with them one day. Even the mighty cannot hide from the truth no matter how they cook up their numbers. Remember Enron?

freeesoul #63 Agreed on the bhangi part.

But then you provide your views on drugs and ruin the entire post: ``Smoking marijuana once a day (usually in night) keeps u very relaxed and happy, and it is very stres--releasing. ``

Heh! Heh! Do you make yourself happy every night, or less frequently? And how long do you stay happy before, shall we say, dozing off? (just curious).

saminashah ``Deceit, thy name is man.``

As usual, Maulana Hazrat SheikhPr Naqshbandi Sahib of Avonabad in Wilayat had already warned women of this problem centuries ago:

``Weep no more, ladies

Weep no more

Men were deceivers ever,

One foot on sea

and one on shore,

To one thing constant

never``

raveena #60,

oh geez you found me out.

by the way, i don`t remember addressing you, but if you insist on interacting with me...well hey, i`m flattered.

Are there any creatures on earth lower than these self-appointed guardians of society? Just when you think you have plumbed the depths with the baby-burners of Gujarat, here`s the ultimate:

SAUDI RELIGIOUS POLICE BLOCKED FIRE RESCUE -PAPERS

RIYADH, March 14 (Reuters) - Saudi media, in a rare criticism of the kingdom`s powerful religious police, have accused the force of hampering efforts to rescue 15 girls who died inside a blazing school.

Saudi media and families of the victims have been incensed over the death of the girls in the fire that gutted a school on Monday in the Muslim holy city of Mecca. Most of the girls were crushed to death in a stampede as they tried to flee the blaze.

The al-Eqtisadiah daily said firemen scuffled with members of the religious police, also known as ``mutaween``, after they tried to keep the girls inside the burning building because they did not wear headscarves and abayas (black robes) as required by the kingdom`s strict interpretation of Islam.

The English-language Saudi Gazette, in a front-page report on Thursday, quoted witnesses as saying that members of the police, known as the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, had stopped men who tried to help the girls and warned ``it is a sinful to approach them``.

One civil defence officer told al-Eqtisadiah he saw three members of the religious police ``beating young girls to prevent them from leaving the school because they were not wearing the abaya``.

``We told them that the situation was very critical and did not allow for such behaviour. But they shouted at us and refused to move away from the gates,`` the newspaper quoted the officer as saying.

The father of one of the dead girls charged that the school watchman even refused to open the gate to let the girls out, the Saudi Gazette reported.

``Lives could have been saved had they not been stopped by members of the Commission for Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice,`` the newspaper said.

The feared mutaween roam the streets of the conservative kingdom wielding sticks to enforce dress codes and sex segregation and to ensure prayers are performed on time

Those who refuse to obey their orders are usually beaten and sometimes jailed.

hamidm & saminashah

Please read Saminashahs post again. She wasn`t ASKING me anything, she was trying to TELL me that Islamists and their Muftis etc. are idiots (in her opinion). So let me tell her and you that I am told. Thank you. Now what is your question?

But before you want me to answer your question, let me tell you one thing about this whole question-answer business. Every time you ask a qualified, an unqualified, a loaded, or a taunting ``question`` I am required to give a qualified answer. I do not have any other choice. Or do I? If you are genuinly interested to explore a subject we can engage in a discussion, if I cant answer your question, since I am not an encyclopedia, you can explore the subject elsewhere. The books, the people who can answer your enquiry are available on internet and all over North America. To show that you are genuinly interested in a subject you must show your ineterst through your tone and words. And if the purpose of your inquiry is to taunt or propagate your agenda, then thy shalt not whine if I chose not to answer. And, if, me not answering your questions makes you think that you have ``scored`` or you have won the argument (as if it ever took place), then so be it. At least I made one person happy in that day.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

saminashah,

... if you are waiting for urstruly or hobbyty to reply, don`t hold your breath ..... these kind of questions shake the very foundation that their hollow lives are based on ...... blind faith does not like to be challenged by intellect, women, children, gays and horse sense ... and really what do you expect them to say ? .... are you asking them to denounce the stupidity that condemns people as apostates, heretics and infidels and asks them to eat dates for breakfast .... come on, next you will be asking them to throw away their watwani stones, start using tooth paste instead of twigs, and stop washing their feet in the sink......

...... if it is of any consolation to you, what they are doing to dr. saadawi is not unique - there are thousands of men rotting in pakistani jail on blasphemy charges ...... everyone talks about the isi and what a horrible organization it is, nobody talks about the council of islamic ideology which has a mandate from god herself ......

Scout,

I guess some of our interactors suffer from selective comprehension disorder; a condition marked by a refusal to engage with issues that are being dealt with in a manner of personal honesty and integrity by other folk. I`m not surprised that the story on Dr. Sadaawi and her husband has been tiptoed away from by gentlemen who have name called in the past-for demanding that we deal with issues in manner befitting adulthood and the 21st century. Am I bitter? Nothing surprises me anymore. Won`t be wasting my time on conversations on ``spirituality`` when there are serious issues staring us dead in the eye.

Deceit, thy name is man.

[[

dost-mittar #43

Urstruly#33

``Today all states and federal govt. spend huge budget on telling youth that narcotics are bad for your health. And these charsees and bhangees have gall to tell us that we will all be in heaven if we become charsees and bhangees.``

I resent your practice of using ``bhangees`` in a derogatory manner. Bhangees are/were the people who did what none of us ``respectable`` people wanted to do, namely, to pick up our crap and dispose it off while we covered our noses and eyes. The one thing I liked about Gandhi was that he chose to live among the bhangees in ``Bhangee`` Colonies and also chose to be his own ``bhangee``. I didn`t expect you to display this distinctly ``Hindu`` attitude.

]]

and i resent the use of `charsee` in derogatory manner. Marijuana is not bad, its excessive use is. Smoking marijuana once a day (usually in night) keeps u very relaxed and happy, and it is very stres--releasing. And it is less dangerous than smoking # of cigs.

An Indian visits China and sends an e-mail ......

``China was mind-boggling. When in Shanghai, you have to pinch yourself hard to remind yourself that you are not in New York or Paris. It is so elegantly planned, with quadruple-layered freeways, with orchids and creepers growing underneath the base columns. It`s amazing what the Chinese Government has achieved. You see clear evidence of where those billions of dollars of foreign direct investment have gone: into great infrastructure, roads, middle class housing, great power supply etc.

``When you compare the place with India, you just want to break down and cry: we are light years behind and never going to catch up. Also, the Chinese make it clear that by 2008, they will be the No. 1 power on this planet. India`s IT industry has at best two years left in the limelight.

``Start learning Mandarin now.``

re: spout

your obsession with me is starting to border on unhealthy

Urstruly #55: For all the Pakistani English and Urdu literature and intellectualism and hollow secularism and extremist religionism, in my opion, it is infact the Punjabi and Pushtu movies that are the main source of entertainment for an overwhelming number of Pakistanis. Unfortunately, many of the people on this site have never lived outside Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi for extended amounts of times, in the real Pakistan, hence they have very little knowledge of the popularity of the Sultan Rahis of the world.

Sultan Rahi, Mustapha Qureshi and Anjuman are probably amongst the top ten best known individuals in Punjab (talking about all of Punjab, not just the four or five big cities). Mustapha Qureshi is somewhat of an intellectual himself. His wife Rubina Qureshi is a Sindhi folk-singer.

scout #53: Why are you so violent and angry?

What the Punjabi and Pushtu actors and actresses ever do to you? Why not leave them alone? If others appreciate them, let them do so. How many Pushtu and/or Punjabi movies have you seen in your life?

P.S. I am very selective about the people I joke with.....

` In fact, he wants to lift Pakistan into the sky & fly it down near Europe`

Ah if only that were possible!

There won`t be any Cable TV revolution in Pakistan unless I am able to watch my (now banned) ZeeTV, Star News, Aaj Tak, and all other Indian channels

Romair:

I think Mussarat has also beaten Imran Khan in the same constituency as that of Maulana Fazlur Rehman. I dont know about Haji sahib Sultan Rahi but our Mustapha Quereshi can easily beat anyones butt-Indian or Holywood-he is/was handsome and tall but Haji Sahib was referred to as ``Kofta jiday wich keeray payay honday naiN`` (because of the dents on his face) in our circle of friends-yet he was lieterally a hero and a role model for millions. I have seen some of his movies in open air in a Goth in interior Sindh among peasant folk-and the guys used to throw their dhotties in the air with joy whenever he used to kick bad guys` butts-and that bad guy usually used to be Mustapha Tind (not quereshi). aah!! those were the days...

Scout:

I dont think I have an image here, and I dont want one....I relentlessly try to piss all people off without prejudice, and therefore I think that I am not much liked here either....and I dont want to change that...if I want I will have to be very pretentious and that will choke me to death.

Urstruly #47, ``I myself am the Pushto film kinda guy.``

so mr. shareef admits to liking porn.

you`re tarnishing your ultra-conservative, i-do-no-wrong, squeaky clean as a mudpuddle image.

Romair #41, ``Many of us wouldnt` be where we are today, had the, ``200 lb bimbos`` not kept us motivated, entertained and energized.``

is this one of your lame jokes again or are you serious about it? i`d like to know before i smash you into smithereens, on screen that is. please reply promptly so that i can decide your fate.

it isn`t every day i`m offered a free head on a platter and decapitating suxena is, quite frankly, getting boring.



chowk staff,

don`t read this post but DO put it up

Chunky ji ne farmaya:

Coming back to my focus of post is why the hell Paskistani women prove there talent in areas that matter ....social issues,activism,peace,literacy,justice ,instead of being ``toy `` of mens playfull fancy desopite being few of the women who can write in English for wide audience?

First of all, your question doesn`t make much sense, but let me see, you`re wondering why Pakistani women don`t prove their talents in areas that matter, na?

I`ve never considered Tahira Naqvi to be a `toy` of men`s playful fancy...I`m sure she would be amazed as well. I find your interpretation of her stories somewhat amusing...and lacking. As is your information regarding Pakistani women.

There are quite a few women out there who are and have been making contributions in the areas you`ve listed above. YLH has mentioned Rubina Saigol, there`s Asma Jahangir and Hina Jilani, lawyers whose lives have been threatened in their defense of human rights and justice, there are countless women involved in the struggle for peace and justice. They may not be writers like Tahira Naqvi and Arundhati Roy, and they may not have all reached the stature that Roy has, but their talents and their time matters all the same.

If you`re going to make a statement like that based on who is `popular` or who the mainstream media chooses to report on...then please Chunky ji, educate yourself some more before you make such an educated remark again. Many thanks!

Urstruly #47: Badar Munir and Musarrat Shaheen are legends. Alongwith Sultan Rahi, Mustapha Qureshi (a Sindhi) and Anjuman. I am not sure how well the above could compete with the Indian performers in acting, but I do know that in one-to-one combat, Anjuman could kick Madhuri`s butt, and Sultan Rahi (marhoom) could take on Amitabh, quite easily.

Musarrat Shaheen is a politician now. She competed against Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman (father of Taliban, along with Benazir) for an MNA seat. Both lost. It will be interesting to see how they do this time around. Not too many people have the courage to take on the JUI Maulana. Not bad for a, ``200lb bimbo`` who ``gyrates her hips.``

All of you who are so fond of saying there is no compulsion in Islam:

[Ref saminashah #: 45

Nawal El Saadawi is the first woman in Egyptian history to be threatened with a forced divorce for expressing her views. She was accused of apostasy - renouncing one`s religion - for allegedly insulting Islam.

Apostasy is a crime in Islam and the consequences are serious. If found guilty Nawal would be forcibly divorced from Sherif, her husband of 37 years and face a three-year prison term.]

A great tragedy has fallen upon the Muslim world. Our culture is being destroyed. Dajjal is at work. Shameless women have become westernized. These children act like prostitutes.

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/03/08/womens.day/

Muslim brothers, why are we not teaching God`s word to Muslimahs? Why have we lost control over them?

12 head,

{{Idiot doesnt know India is a Peninsula (not a country) It has Pakistan ,B.D.(bangladesh) Nepal ,Bhutan,Sikkim ,Burma etc in it ....}}

I disagree with you. Saxena isnt just a gadha--he`s the mother of all gadhas.

However, let me caution you. When you include other S.Asian nations in India, his twin brother, ylh, will start masterbating about how Pakistan is PAKISTAN & NOT India. In fact, he wants to lift Pakistan into the sky & fly it down near Europe. He`s already sendng out petitions to make Pakistan a part of the European Union.

ylh,

If you pull that off successfully, you will go down in history as the most popular Pakistani in India! Nothing would please Indians more if Pakistan is on the other end of the globe, far far away from India.

Romair

I myself am the Pushto film kinda guy. My best one is Sipin Satargay (Blue Eyes)-and it cannot be said better in any other language than the urdu - Badar Munir ki eemaan afroz fight or Musarat Shaheen kay eemaan shikkan raqs say bharpoor shahkaar - sipin satargay.

Dost Mitter

Dont resent. The word Bhangi is also used for one who smokes Bhang, Marijuana, hemp etc. etc. And have faith in me, I love other Bhangees and you, juuust the same. Ok?

scout #4: ``and then we have those 200lb bimbos gyrating their cellulite in the faces of men in Punjabi/Pathan movies and it`s perfectly alright.``

Some of us Pakistanis, who spent a great deal of their youth in the boondocks of Pakistan, are greatly offended by this comment. For a long time, this was the only entertainment available as we sweated it out in the tiny cities of central Punjab and northern Sarhad. Many of us wouldnt` be where we are today, had the, ``200 lb bimbos`` not kept us motivated, entertained and energized.

While there is a certain amount of entertainment factor in watching Cats on Broadway, or Phantom of the Opera off-Broadway, it will never match the excitement of the smoke-filled Artillery Cinema in Nowshera, as the, ``200 lb bimbo`` appeares on the screen, lip-synching to Noor Jehan`s latest Punjabi hit, with the chivalrous Sultan Rahi standing in the background. Topak Zama Kanoon dhay is a classic, and I don`t care what anyone says......

So as they say in the passes of Landikotal and the plains of Jhang: ``Don`t knock it, till you have tried it.``

Urstruly, Hobbyty,

Well, I see we are back to posts about monkeys and broken mirrors...and still no response to the article about two people who have more integrity in their nail clippings than some cyber jihadis will ever have in a few dozen lifetimes. So lets go over it again, and this time, before you go back to the easy and cheap judgements, respond to this article and how the wicked spiritualism of the West has forced the poor journalists, Muftis and readership of Egypt to be complete idiots.

regards

Nawal El Saadawi Basics

Egypt was once the tolerant face of the Arab world, but even before the terrorist attacks of 11 September an Islamic backlash had bred a new intolerance. The most recent victim of this intolerance is feminist writer Nawal El Saadawi.

Fiona Lloyd-Davies reports

Nawal El Saadawi is the first woman in Egyptian history to be threatened with a forced divorce for expressing her views. She was accused of apostasy - renouncing one`s religion - for allegedly insulting Islam.

Apostasy is a crime in Islam and the consequences are serious. If found guilty Nawal would be forcibly divorced from Sherif, her husband of 37 years and face a three-year prison term.

The views expressed by 70- year old Nawal enrage people and her shock of flowing, white hair causes outrage. Whether you agree with what she says or not it is hard to ignore her.

Meeting Nawal

When I arrive at her 26th floor apartment I am struck by two of the most dramatic views of Cairo you could ask for. From the sitting room, a large window opens onto a balcony from where you can see the Nile snaking its way into the distance, the artery of the country.

Opposite, from the kitchen you see the reverse view, the higgledy piggledy rooftops of the city of Cairo, home to nine million people.

It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that: but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action

Sherif

Here in this tower, as the Nile breeze relieves the heat of the desert and the dust of the city traffic, you feel you are in the heart of Cairo but distanced from it at the same time. Not unlike Nawal - an Arab and a Muslim but also a feminist fighting against convention for parity of the sexes.

Her eyes burn bright with an intensity and passion when we talk about rights - the right to express yourself, the right to think, the right to fight for an equal society.

Nawal and Sherif

Now, Nawal and Sherif are fighting a battle that threatens them both.

They first met after Sherif was released from 15 years` imprisonment for illegal leftist political activism. He was 40 and had spent his youth in solitary confinement and breaking rocks in a scalding desert prison known as ``the Incinerator``.

Nawal`s husband, Dr Sherif Hetata

``We don`t believe in just writing,`` says Sherif. ``We think that writers should try to put what they say into some form of action.

``It`s easy to write about justice, and beauty, and things like that but it`s more difficult to do something about it. She`s tried to put what she believes into action, and do something about it, and speak out and that`s why she has all these problems.``

Nawal`s outspokenness has caused her many problems. As the first Arab woman to speak out against female circumcision 30 years ago Nawal was sacked from her ministerial job of Director of Public Health.

In 1981 after criticising Sadat`s regime she was imprisoned. Nawal`s name appeared on a fundamentalist death list and both she and Sherif were forced into exile.

But neither Nawal nor Sherif saw this latest battle looming.

The interview

It all started this March when Nawal agreed to be interviewed by Wahid Ra`fat, a journalist working for an Egyptian weekly, Al Maydan.

There was a lot to talk about - four of Nawal`s books had just been banned at the Cairo Book Fair, not an unusual event in Egypt but certainly enough to cause comment.

``I spoke how social and economic changes are happening and how we have to modify these laws and to educate people more about the essence of Islam and to change some of the laws``

-Nawal el Saadawi

It appeared that he knew her work, and Nawal talked about her well known and controversial feminist views on sex and religion. She constantly challenges attitudes to sexuality, the practices of veiling, female circumcision. She condemed the exploitation of religion for political ends.

``I spoke how social and economic changes ar