From Across The Border

``Pakistan: The Dangers of Conventional Wisdom``

http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/projects/showreport.cfm?reportid=578

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``A friend pointed out to me that Kashmir as a site for struggle has a symbolic value. Were I to give it up, I would be giving up the ideological basis for creation of Pakistan or at least that’s how “I” would understand it. Were you to give it up, it would be striking a blow to the conception of Indian nationhood. It is not a matter of subscribing to the notions of “human rights” or other nice stuff like that. It is possible, as you said, that Kashmiris would hate us “both”. But do we care about that?``

Who are Kashmiris? Whoever they may be and whatever they may themselves want, for India and Pakistan Kashmir is little more than a relentless overinflated redblooded ego trip. I am waiting for some ``journalist`` to wake up one morning and declare the figure of 100,000 kashmiris killed. It should come about within a few months (or weeks); and then the figure will be bandied about in every ``news``paper as the official number. We have actually begun to derive a macabre kind of satisfaction in these numbers. What chance do Kashmiris stand when two fattened bullies are ready to fight to the last Kashmiri?

studebaker,

``Ironically it is the Indians who are likely to fight with Pakistan in war ,are the ones most interested in friendship too..the north Indians ,Punjabis ,Rajputs,Kashmiri hindu ,Dogra etc.``

Brilliant insight. The same is the case, IMO, in Pakistan. It is the same ex-UPites, Punjabis, Rajputs, Kashmiri Muslims (and shockingly, like our Gujjus, their Gujjus too now!).

My tentative theory is that when we love and share a great deal, our imaginations work overtime; trivial details, real and imaginary loom larger before our eyes than the universe itself....then we foolishly we turn our ties of love into ties of hatred, hurting ourselves and helping those who actually have little do do with us.

Muslim killings in India, Palestine not the same: Saudi paper

http://www.arabnews.com

Dubai, Mar 14 An influential Saudi Arabian newspaper has defended India`s secular record, pointing out that the country has already had two Muslim presidents while many Muslims have served in cabinet positions.

The Saudi newspaper Arab News, in a report titled ``Muslim killings in Palestine and India,`` said that the situation in the two areas was different.

``India is a secular republic in which anyone with any religion has a share in government and can reach the highest echelons of the state. India has already had two Muslim presidents while many Muslims have served in cabinet positions.

``Israel, however, is a Jewish state in which non-Jews, even those that become citizens of the state, do not enjoy equal status,`` an article in the paper said.

The article was written in response to one by Thomas Friedman, a New York Times columnist, who asked: ``Why is it that when Hindus kill hundreds of Muslims in India it elicits an emotionally muted headline in the Arab media, but when Israel kills a dozen Muslims it inflames the entire Muslim world?``

Said the Arab News article: ``The Muslims killed in India are victims of sectarian violence that has a long history in the subcontinent. The latest round of killings started with the massacre of 60 Hindus by Muslim militants in Gujarat. The government does not conduct the killings in India. In Palestine, however, it is the Israeli government that does the killings.``

Drawing a distinction between the happenings in Gujarat and in Palestine, the article said: ``Gujarat is not an occupied territory. Its people freely chose to be part of India when Britain partitioned the subcontinent. Muslims had the option of either staying in India or transferring to the newly created Pakistan, which at the time included the present-day Bangladesh.

``Israel, on the other hand, is killing people, demolishing homes and dismantling infrastructure in occupied territories.``

The newspaper said that ``during the past year or so, Israel has killed 1,100 Palestinians and wounded a further 7,000.

``Relative to the total population in the occupied territories, that is the equivalent of killing 110,000 and injuring 700,000 Muslims in India, assuming that there are 120 million Muslims in that country.``

The incidents in Gujarat were an internal Indian tragedy, while what was happening in Palestine was a ``colonial conflict with one nation seeking to exercise its right of self-determination against an occupying power,`` the article observed.

View from the gallery

By Kunwar Idris

Indian Muslims and Pakistan

Pakistan has been criticized, on occasions ostracized, by the world community for its religious extremism, denying equal rights to the minorities and persecuting them. India gets away unscathed with much worse.
The world discriminates between the two because by its Constitution, laws and nomenclature, Pakistan is a religious state. India is secular. In real life extremism or, more familiar in sub-continental setting, communalism is more virulent and deep-rooted in India than it is in Pakistan because India`s grievance on the partition of the subcontinent still festers.
More than its origin in Muslim nationalism and Islamic laws particularly those enacted during Zia-ul-Haq`s martial law, what has given Pakistan a parochial image is the sequestering of the minorities by casting them out of the electoral mainstream. Till a recent reversal of this system by the present government for the forthcoming general elections, the minorities were required to elect their own representatives through constituencies as wide as the province or the country itself.
Since some minority groups like Parsis, Sikhs, Buddhists were too small for each to have a representative of its own, it resulted in such preposterous arrangement as the Parsis of Karachi, Buddhists of Baltistan, Sikhs of Waziristan and Kafirs of Chitral all combining to choose one member to represent them all in the National Assembly. Obviously it had to be always a Parsi.
A ludicrous assumption inherent in the system of separate electorates was that the interests and rights of Kafirs were better safeguarded by a Parsi who had never seen their primitive paleolithic habitat a thousand miles away than by a Muslim neighbour. The nation would never be able to thank General Musharraf enough for doing away this absurdity which all but disenfranchised those among its citizens who professed a faith other than Islam, or the government so chose to decree despite their protestations.
The minorities in Pakistan are no more than five per cent of the population, half of them Hindus. Too few to fight, they live, by and large, peacefully but cautiously. The Muslims in India are around 12 per cent - more than twice as many as all the other minority groups put together leaving out the animist tribals or pagans. In all they number as many as in Pakistan - about 140 million.
The representation of the Indian Muslims in politics, businesses, professions, services is much less than their population ratio. Though India has had Muslims to show as heads of state and judiciary, even chiefs of the armed forces and the richest of men, in public services their number is believed to be less than four per cent. Their presence in enterprises and professions is also generally one-fourth of what it should be on the basis of population.
The backwardness of the Muslims and discrimination against them is obvious from these numbers. Maulana Asad Madni who was here in Pakistan last year attending a conference of his (Deoband) school of thought described a secular state as a state not averse to religion but tolerant of all religions. By not contesting this definition the warring jihadi hosts of the Indian maulana conceded that Pakistan, being an Islamic state, was a state for Muslims alone. The followers of the other faiths could be the residents but not equal citizens.
That has come to stay as the world perception as well. Pakistan`s aggressive intervention in Afghanistan and Kashmir and the presence of its footloose warriors in unconcerned lands like Chechnya and Macedonia has given a militant dimension to its parochial image.
That explains the indifference of the world to the pillage and plunder in Gujarat resulting in the death, mostly by burning, of a thousand Muslims with more yet to be dug out of the smouldering rubble of their homes. Amidst all this carnage, the chief of Vishwa Hindu Parishad showed little remorse and blamed the Muslims for inviting the Hindu wrath by setting the Ayodhya pilgrim train afire.
Many versions go round on the burning of the train and the death of 58 Hindu radicals. Fanatical Muslims of Godhara, provocateurs of the Congress opposition to discredit the ruling coalition or of the BJP itself to divert attention from its humiliating defeat in the state elections are suspected of arson. The most credible version now emerging is of Washington Post (reported in Thursday`s Dawn). It was just a shouting match of insults accompanied by hurling of rocks. An oil-soaked rag set the train ablaze which was neither planned nor intended.
Last to be suspected should be the Godhara Muslims. Outnumbered by ten to one they had to be both stupid and insane not to have anticipated the ghastly aftermath of burning alive the karsevaks incensed by the Ayodhya agitation.
The vast tragedy of Gujarat should go to underline Pakistan`s responsibility in fostering harmony in the region and rein in its own forces of fanaticism and hatred. When it comes to spite and murder our sipahs and lashkars will find more than a match in the Indian parishads and senas. We have no maulana to match the venom of Bal Thackeray.
If not for common history, language and neighbourliness, Pakistan must strive for peace and friendship with India for the sake of the unity of the Muslims of the two countries. A hostile India cannot have Muslims friendly to Pakistan for their loyalty and welfare lies in India. Pakistan can do little for them. It cannot give them shelter if they were driven out by more Gujarat-like pogroms. They have no where else to go. The policies of Pakistan must enable them to live there in amity.
Shahid Javed Burki who feels and plans for a poor Pakistan living in rich America weekly makes out an extended argument in this paper for Pakistan to defect from South Asia to seek its fortune and future in West-Central Asia. He thinks of the ummah and abundant resources of that region forgetting that almost half of the ummah of the world lives in Pakistan, India and Bangladesh.
As an economist with a world view it is amazing for him to believe that Russia, America and Europe with their power of intervention and money would ever let a disparate, fractious Central Asia control its own oil and minerals and let Pakistan share it.
Whatever Burki`s world outlook of an expert, here even a country bumpkin looking across the Durand Line over Tora Bora and Gardez mountains does not see peace and stability returning to Afghanistan for a long time to come to give Pakistan access to the fabled Farghana, Samarkand and Bokhara and the wealth buried beneath them.
Pakistan belongs to South Asia and to nowhere else. It has tried East (Seato) and West (Cento) and half-way (ECO and OIC). Getting poorer by the day, it has no time left for yet another excursion into the unfamiliar and uncertain. It has no option but to make Saarc into an Asean.
The ummah sentiment finds no echo in Central Asia. It was best illustrated by the visiting head of a former Soviet republic when in reply to a sentimental harangue at a banquet by President Ghulam Ishaq Khan on Islam and common heritage, he said having come out of one maze after a century he wasn`t inclined to lead his people into another, he had come in search of prosperity, not ideology. Not many ministers or traders have come since then. Instead they swarm Dubai and Mumbai.
Leaving the fanatical outbursts and cynics aside and reconciled to divergent faiths, the people of India and Pakistan understand each other and can deal with each other only if their leaders let them. They have common saints, shrines and festivals. Many Hindus beseech more the Gharibnawaz (lover of the poor) of Ajmer than their own gods. Poet Iqbal eulogized Ram as the prince and pride of (united) India and its gift to the world.
Building on these sentiments the economists and planners should try to bridge the gulf between the two countries and not join the priests and politicians in widening it. Combined with Bangladesh it will form a formidable block for the ummah and economy alike.

(Courtesy: The Dawn)

What border? Border is supposed to be where things come to a stop, they don`t flow, right?

Trade flows, legal and illegal. Water flows. People who want to cross illegaly, cross. High funda people cross over to play golf with each other, but not hockey or cricket. Alcohol flows one way and narcotics flow the other. Pirated movies and satellite based cable tv flows. Cows, buffloes and dogs cross with impunity.

Social systems like religious commerce and birth based caste systems continue to flow. Driving habits flow. Corruption flows. Thuggery flows, both from the powerful sarkar and from the poor subjects.

Colonialism still flows. Royals, deprived of their legal powers, are still in full flow

Sometimes, when it rains, even the border flows. And changes.

Across which border, made by whom? And why?

``A friend pointed out to me that Kashmir as a site for struggle has a symbolic value. Were I to give it up, I would be giving up the ideological basis for creation of Pakistan or at least that’s how “I” would understand it. Were you to give it up, it would be striking a blow to the conception of Indian nationhood.``

interesting perspective, but then, Kashmir is not anyone`s but the Kashmiris so there shouldn`t even be a question of India or Pakistan ``giving it up.``

Pakistan and India are just two bullies running after each other in the playground, competing for a toy that belongs to someone else.

Irfan,

The reality is that people on both sides of the border are tired of this endless, childish squabbling between the two countires. There is a sense of battle fatigue as people want to get on with their lives. If you look at things objectively, there is not really that much to fight about. I am a firm believer that good relations between India and Pakistan will automatically lead to some kind of compromise on Kashmir.

The real challenge is to economically develop the subcontinent so that it once again becomes a ``sone ki chidiya``. Most of the religious, caste and other such conflicts will fade away if people have a sound economic future.

veeresh #6

[…What border?…]

---you described the one that straddles two wannabees…don’t think (we the) people are interested in the border that demarcates india/pakistan, us/cuba, us/mexico….we want the border padam shri ali sardar jafri wistfully described in his partition poem as the divide of hair over a mother’s or dulhan’s head…sort of us/Canada border…yeah am dreamin’…and will dream on…it is better than the chukh chukh witnessed otherwise;)…

rgds,

t

ps: btw am on the verge of launching a new `movement`...calling it a religion will be too presumptuous at this point...interested in pune or dilli franchise?;)

Ref Ashok #: 2

[Some of the animosity has been on purpose developed,nurtured & inculcated over centuries ,by brain washing with large volumes of ``hindu version of history `` with particular goal of vengeance ,eye to reversing the so called wrong done & letting it fall as burden on the future hindu children as duty to work towards that goal.How else could you see animosity towards Pakistan ,not far behind general missinterpretation of 10000 yrs of muslim history in India.From Kashmir to Ayodhya ....Mumbai to Gujrat riots are just symptoms of artificially introduced infection of communalism.]

This is rich. When we were all brainwashed by textbooks and history written to whitewash the crimes of the sultans and nawabs, that is acceptable but the moment the current government wants to tell the truth there is an outcry. There is no greater evidence of wrongs done to Hindus than the presence of 450 million Muslims in the subcontinent. If the Christians only number about 5% of India`s population, there is no reason for the Muslims to number more than 30% of the subcontinent`s population except that force was used to convert all these people, no matter that we get Pakistanis bleating like bakras that they converted voluntarily. Don`t give me that BS about how the Hindus converted to escape casteism. There are as many Dalits in India as there are Muslims in the entire subcontinent. No, they don`t want your Arab religion!

The fact that not one temple of antiquity remains in all of Northern India is proof of the destruction of Hindu temples by Islamic thugs. General misinterpretation of 1000 years of Muslim rule, my a$$! So long as you continue to deny the truth, people will react against that. It is time for the textbooks to acknowledge the fact that under Muslim sultans Hindus were treated worse than dirt in their own country. That same mindset continues in Pakistan where everyone is a descendant of Taimur Leng, Genghiz Khan, or the Prophet Muhammad. So much for the theory of Hindus converting to escape casteism!

``From Kashmir to Ayodhya...``. What do you want, hand over Kashmir to the Islamic thugs called Pakistanis? Just read the daily newspapers: Omar Saeed Sheikh is a tool of the ISI who killed people in Kashmir and now Daniel Pearl. Are Hindus killing Muslims in Kashmir? No, it is the Pakistan-based thugs who kill Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists in Kashmir. ``...Mumbai to Gujarat``. Who set off the bomb explosions all over Bombay and who is now hiding in Pakistan? Who set the train on fire in Godhra and are now paying for it? Why should I turn the other cheek when my religion doesn`t tell me to? Let these idiots who claim that they consider Jesus to be also a Prophet turn the other cheek.

``Artificially introduced infection of communalism`` came in with the sultans of Delhi so stop blaming the current political leaders for that.

People like you need to stop reproducing. As it is we have too many idiots.

Ref Ras Siddiqui #: 5

It looks like the whitewashing of the Islamic thugs` crime at Godhra has already begun in the Pakistani press. Let us see what the Islamic columnist has to say:

View from the gallery

By Kunwar Idris

Indian Muslims and Pakistan

[That explains the indifference of the world to the pillage and plunder in Gujarat resulting in the death, mostly by burning, of a thousand Muslims with more yet to be dug out of the smouldering rubble of their homes.]

The death toll is NOT one thousand. It is closer to 600.

[Amidst all this carnage, the chief of Vishwa Hindu Parishad showed little remorse and blamed the Muslims for inviting the Hindu wrath by setting the Ayodhya pilgrim train afire.]

No, no, no. The Hindus should apologize for being Hindus, Kaffirs, Unbelievers. They should then apologize for going to Ayodhya. Then they should apologize for travelling by train.

[Many versions go round on the burning of the train and the death of 58 Hindu radicals. Fanatical Muslims of Godhara, provocateurs of the Congress opposition to discredit the ruling coalition or of the BJP itself to divert attention from its humiliating defeat in the state elections are suspected of arson. The most credible version now emerging is of Washington Post (reported in Thursday`s Dawn). It was just a shouting match of insults accompanied by hurling of rocks. An oil-soaked rag set the train ablaze which was neither planned nor intended.]

That is why the train carriages were locked from the outside and nobody could escape. Somehow the Hindus locked the carriages from outside and climbed back in through windows with bars welded across them at 4`` spacing. Being extremely malnourished, they could do this. Of course they couldn`t do it in reverse by climbing out of the burning carriages because they were malnourished and didn`t have the strength.

[Last to be suspected should be the Godhara Muslims.]

Oh no. Perhaps they should all be honored with Sitara-e-Pakistan or some such award.

[Outnumbered by ten to one...]

Let us ignore the locals who say that the town is about one-third Muslim. On the other hand, if you are talking about Islamic thugs, one-to-ten sounds about right.

[... they had to be both stupid and insane...]

So, what else is new?

[The vast tragedy of Gujarat should go to underline Pakistan`s responsibility in fostering harmony in the region and rein in its own forces of fanaticism and hatred. When it comes to spite and murder our sipahs and lashkars will find more than a match in the Indian parishads and senas. We have no maulana to match the venom of Bal Thackeray.]

Ha, ha, ha! I am holding my sides. I haven`t heard a better joke.

Does Bal Thakrey run anything even remotely similar to one your madrassahs? Do his followers undergo weapons training? Are they taught how to cross borders? Have they been caught in Nepal or Bangladesh killing people? What a loony!

Further to may last post, we must remember that as Romair tirelessly points out less than 5% of the Pakistani population reads the English newspapers, of which Dawn is the most liberal. So we can well imagine the legends that are being told in the Urdu press in Pakistan about Gujarat.

asiapacificforum.org

Ref temporal #: 9

[ps: btw am on the verge of launching a new `movement`...calling it a religion will be too presumptuous at this point...interested in pune or dilli franchise?;) ]

Call it a religion but don`t call yourself a Muslim; you will suffer the fate of Ahmadiyyas.

Tripe! Longing for a peaceful life, or normal relations between countries, is the Sissyphusian strugle for peoples who choose to dream instead of dealing with their real problems.

Saying we are not each other`s enemy and that someone else is, changes nothing. For those who want peaceful, normal relations between Pakistan and India, their best efforts must be exerted to rid in each others intellectual foundation, those constructs that continue to identify the other as exclusively responsible for the others misery. For the Indian this means giving up a version of history in which the Muslim is ``Invader``, responsible for a Holocaust`` against Hindus, for having ``Broken`` India. For the Pakistani, it means giving up the view of the Indian as a sly schemer, congenitally hostile to anything Muslim, comfortable only as a demonic hegemon.

Free Kashmir or forget Kashmir? only for the kashmiri to decide? grow up! The problem won`t solve itself by wishing it away, or by passing the buck - but we need not arrive at a ``solution`` right away - though we do need to establish a more civil atmosphere than what exist now; and this is possible.

No Borders?, pleeze! Sobriety is conducive to rational thought. All the ``more righteous, more peace loving than thou`` players/dreamers/idealists on Chowk have done their little bit - and it`s always a ``little`` bit, because evading problems, not acknowledging them, can never help. Lets be sober about each other, we are similar and different, it sounds counter intuitive but we need to rediscover our differences, to rediscover each other as ``whole``, not just our similarities and we need to tell and to listen and hear each others truths and that is not comfortable nor easy and no amount of ``longing`` for peace and normality, will make it easy. Problems are not solved by wishful thinking, but with will and resolution.

Ras Siddiqui quotes an article from Kunwar Idris that says: ``...communalism is more virulent and deep-rooted in India than it is in Pakistan because India`s grievance on the partition of the subcontinent still festers.``

This, from a fellow whose country has depopulated the minorities and virtually eliminated their presence. There are no minorities worth the weight left anymore in Pakistan for them to have the problem of ``communalism.`` Are all Pakis born this stupid or do they merely act and write this way?

tantralogician