An Equal Reaction

anNy #237

…I really don’t know what to say…except i’m so very sorry...

````1 We are all being bad Muslims and Hindus, or

2 Islam is less equal, and Hinduism less tolerant, than we like to proclaim.

One, or the other. Which would you say?````(Zafar)

If you don`t mind my jumping in, Zafar miaN -- looking at Gujarat -- I would say BOTH.

My Dear anNy:

Sorry if I came a little too strong.

Why do you always say I hate Pakistan? This is exactly the reason I say it is very difficult for SOME of you to “SEE” as to who your friends are.

My criticism of Pakistan is not of the country or the people but -- its hate mongering leaders, its ill disciplined army, its Jhamooriat Shikan Musharraf the Usurper -- its Islamist extremism, its backwardness, its treatment of women, its honor killings -- its neglect of secular public education -- and its lack of interest in alleviating poverty and deprivation of the Muslim masses -- and its obsessive irrational hatred of everything Indian (where half of its relatives live) -- including the total disregard for the interests of that huge hapless Muslim population -- in the conduct of their foreign policy dealings -- with India.

It`s constructive criticism of a country in rot -- where half of MY own family lives.

I apologize if I hurt your feelings -- but please try to read in between the lines dispassionately -- if you do you will find that in fact I wish, I yearn, I pray -- for a secular, progressive, democratic -- unobssessed with religion -- prosperous, enlightened -- FRIENDLY to India -- Pakistan.

If that`s what you want to call -- hating Pakistan -- then be my guest -- the fact is that right now and for the last forty two years -- thank God -- I have no ax to grind -- and nothing to do with -- either India or Pakistan -- God bless America.

Best wishes

{A film about a man who deserves to be represented...

DIE WELT: Wie den pakistanischen Staatsgründer Mohammed Ali Jinnah?

}

YLH,

The folks in Germany are trying to understand the Islamic terrorism originating from their country.And guess what .. it has its genesis in Jinnah. The movie talks about that and a lot more.

Thanks for enlightening us!

Reply nasah, Zafar, Prem- re: my post to harimau

I think all of you misunderstood my mentioning Thackeray`s strengths as admiration. You couldn`t be more wrong.

Nasah, passion is good... in fact I was kinda moved by your ``subcontinentals as barbarians`` post which showed your frustration with the way things are. Still I`d caution you that good intentions aren`t enough. Unless you truly understand your enemy`s strengths and weaknesses and use it against them, you can`t hope to defeat them. From my point of view as an Indian, it doesn`t matter if Thackeray`s misguided ``remote`` is hacked to pieces or the batteries eased out or the channel is changed to one which is good for everyone. The effect is going to be the same.

Zafar, your points are well-taken. Rest assured I am no fascist nor do i hold a torch for them. I was only exploring alternatives to the hate-defeats hate arguments.

Prem, I admire your efforts to find me an escape route but i stand by what I said. I hope we are all mature to rise over labels and stereotypes and actually say what we mean without those being unfairly tagged on to us.

Cheers,

Anoop

Pankaj,

No disrespect meant to you, my friend, but can we please keep that debate away for a while? Given that our country is still burning and thousands of people are still scared out of their wits and out of their houses, this just isn`t the moment to scrutinize the veracity or not of any of those assertions.

RE: Reply #: 253 ylh

``A film about a man who deserves to be represented...

http://www.welt.de/daten/2001/12/20/1220kfi303452.htx``

DIE WELT: Wie den pakistanischen Staatsgründer Mohammed Ali Jinnah?``

OK, ylh you win.

Jinnah is hereby nominated for an academy award. And we`ll also add an extra chapter in the Koran for the his hadiths.

You happy?

Reply Soysauce # 250

Strangely Islam’s much vaunted equality, and Hinduism’s much vaunted tolerance, both seem to switch off when it comes to the position of women (50% of the population) in society. So either:

1 We are all being bad Muslims and Hindus, or

2 Islam is less equal, and Hinduism less tolerant, than we like to proclaim.

One, or the other. Which would you say?

Reply Urstruly # 246

“Kaali maata Sadna…I think it is better that you come out of your little universe, the cocoon of hate.”

Charity begins at home, Urstruly, please lead by example if you wish to be convincing.

And btw, how would you like it if Hindus who disagreed with your opinions called you Allah Mian in their posts? You’d be overjoyed, right? It would really encourage you to listen to what they had to say, no?

Given all this, I wonder why no Hindu on Chowk has called you Allah Mian…could it have something to do with respect for your religion DESPITE disagreement with you, personally? An unwillingness to roll in the gutter by lowering themselves by being disrespectful about other people’s beliefs? A clearly misguided belief that this kind of ugliness achieves absolutely nothing except to reveal how badly the person who does this has been brought up?

(I hope that you noticed: I have restrained myself from calling you an unpadh ganwaar because I really hope that you will think about what I’ve said above. And before you ask, no, nobody in my family has been burned to death, so stop salivating and licking your chops. Otherwise, please believe in my continued high regard for you and your many interesting and intelligent ideas.)

re: anNy # 237

After what you wrote about your family`s experience, I just don`t know what I can say to you without feeling utterly hollow. That you are still able to carry on a conversation here is a mighty tribute to you, lady.

I will return to reply to other folks later.

Reply Dost-Mittar # 243

“My post was addressed to Ali1 in response to his ``invitation`` to a Mahmud Ghaznavi to do a repeat act in India. So, Please see it in that context only…”

Yes, I will.

Unfortunately you seem to have been made the “poster child” for a viewpoint you do not yourself espouse. If I have contributed to this, my apologies, but I DO think that the issue needs to be addressed, and I’m glad you brought it up.

Re: the Hindu/Muslim mixed blood-line, I don’t know how exactly it happened. I suspect that in fact, rather than theory, there has always been some quiet and peaceful mixing both ways. You mention the abductions of Partition – yes, many of the Muslim women did leave for Pakistan eventually, but surely not all, and surely not all of the children they may have had while in captivity. The whole thing is something of a taboo subject in our history – and I am in no way trying to excuse what happened – but just stating that because of things like this occurring, if for no other reason, “purity” is unlikely.

Re: Nehruvian History and its objectives – yes, to some extent the Nehruvian focus on integrating the minorities emotionally into the Republic’s “grand narrative” did work – and this grand narrative was broadly adopted by the country’s ruling (English medium ed??? and largely Hindu) elite. Where the whole thing went sour, in my opinion, was the combination of this (probably) skewed narrative with the vote bank politics of Indira Gandhi and what followed after her (with support for clearly corrupt minority leaders – or at least more openly corrupt than the majority equivalent). A segue: in a lot of ways the Hindutva reaction is driven by a lower middle class anger at the elite for its exclusion from power (illustrated by the lack of a narrative which more closely reflected this exclusion). A short step from that to finding a scape goat.

Zafar

Reply anNy # 237, Nasah #242

The anger and fear are there and have to go somewhere…”WHERE EXACTLY?” is what one has to worry about…(where can it make any positive difference? At all?)…Hai, I’d best stop before I get (a) maudlin (b) trite or (c) both. But good to keep in mind, no, that we are all not at our reflective best at this point, and that people who are hurt often lash out – and not always at the appropriate target, but sometimes the closest one.

Zafar

Reply Prem # 236

“So, let`s settle it: I manage the veggies, you take care of the gosht stuff. BTW, I HAVE learnt to do some cool veggie cooking...quite surprised myself…Necessity is the mother of skills that mother never thought were necessities.”

I am not getting involved unless you promise to share your recipes for veggies. I myself owe any facility in the kitchen to the good offices of my Khala whose rasoi in CA is also known (to the cogniscenti and member of my family) as “Mariam Of Encino’s”. I am willing to share recipes for hare masale vali murghi and also biryani, and that’s just the start, many more….(or are you vego? Curses, foiled…)

Reply Hobbyty # 234

Mian

“Zafar, I was disappointed by your post.”

I’m disappointed by your response. You haven’t addressed a SINGLE point I made, nor have you explained DIRECTLY rather than by innuendo why you are disappointed. Can you?

“What you think as a nationalist should not be confused by the kind of slack some of us cut you here - I don`t know whether you realize this - of course we would all want to understand each other better - sometimes this is not possible, nor should be - recall Ali nor I nor any number of Pakistanis are responsible for the riots.”

Iss sentence ka point kya hai? That you cut me slack because I am an Indian Muslim? (Unlikely – we’ve had some long interactions where neither of us cut the other any slack at all.) That sometimes it is not desirable for people with different viewpoints to understand each other? (When? And in India’s current situation, why?) That Pakistanis are not responsible for the riots in Gujarat. (And the sky is blue. Relevance?) What were you trying to say, bhai? It’s not clear.

“The religio-cultural nationalism that is inherent in Dost post does go to explain some of the events we have witnessed - is you expression on Chowk in some way censored by non-Muslim Indians?”

Dude – just because I do not agree with a particular religio-nationalism doesn’t mean (1) that everybody who agrees with it is essentially evil and (2) that I shouldn’t deal with them. They, and their ideas, are not going to disappear – I should deal with them, understand their ideas and try to get them to understand mine. The consequences of NOT dealing with each other are (as we have seen) horrific.

It is intellectually lazy (self indulgent) on your part to assume that just because I don’t write what you’d like to read, my posts (on this anonymous board) are censored by the presence of other (anonymous) Indians on the board.

“You dumped on Ali, but asked Dost`s pardon?”

Actually, I didn’t dump on Ali (much, despite some truly CHARMING comments on cooked Indian Muslims - which you seem to read as expressions of good faith?), I tried to explain why I responded to Dost the way I did. Didn’t you read the whole of my response?

Further – Dost and Ali have earned different responses from me. Dost has established himself as a person (or at least Chowk persona) of consistent good will towards me and the ideas I hold. Ali has not. (Further complication: at this point we’re carrying on as if Dost hold these feeling about Indian Muslims – I don’t believe he does, but if he brings them up, I think it’s worth dealing with because some people in India certainly do.)

“ presumably Ali`s issue is not as important to ``understanding``? I ask you not to answer me immediately, but give it some thought - and be reminded that most Pakistanis have held their tongues, because of persons like you - you may want to consider how fair is it to make us pay a price for a hostage, who abuses those who wish no harm comes to him and yet we will continue to pay it, even as we know some resent us for it.”

Sorry Hobbyty, but this come across as grossly self righteous badly thought out PAP. What price do you, as a Pakistani, pay for letting me speak for myself? (And why do I suspect that you won’t answer the question, but will quote some obscure theorist at me if you respond?)

But…if you insist, please explain the world view of making comments about Indian Muslims being cooked and served in a restaurant. I WOULD actually like to understand the paradigm which finds these comments relevant (leave alone constructive).

“Yes, I understand about choosing one`s fights and who and how - do you think the same way about Pakistanis? You should.”

Am I willing to make more of an effort with some Pakistanis than with others? You bet. Apart from our own illustrious correspondence, please see how I and Tahmed (or anNy, or Fuzair, or Ferozk) deal with each other, even when we disagree on an issue. It should illustrate my point and be instructive to people of good faith.

“Trust me when I say to you that most Pakistanis will agree that for Muslims in India, choosing either side of the divide is like spitting in the air with one`s head tilted back - the spit will fall on one`s face - but if this means being a hostage, perhaps it is too late for considerations like Spitting in the air.”

Well, that’s certainly helpful and constructive. Unfortunately your point was again obscured by…anyway, could you make it again in plain language?

Aapka (somewhat irate) dost,

Zafar

Reply Urstruly # 222

“Isn`t it obvious that the secular Hindus are the one who are responsible for ethnic cleansing”

Urstruly, you are perfectly within your rights to dislike secularism and the secular, but what is the point of accusing them of ethnic cleansing based on religion? I mean, what would be their motivation? If religion, then they are not secular, right?

RE: Reply #: 246 Urstruly

``After the invasion the invaders stopped both orgs so that they (invaders) could provide food in yellow packets while murdering the male Afghan population; you know just to show that after all they have a human face.``

If by invaders, you mean Americans, I wonder what the Al-Qaida guys were doing there before them? You know, the guys with palatial cordoned off mansions in Jalalabad overlooking the Afghan peasants who were eating grass to survive? And what about the thousands of Pakistanis caught with their pants down in Afghanistan? Unless it was OK for them to screw the Afghans because they were after all brotherly Muslims.