An Equal Reaction

re: sridhar # 337

Did I read too much defensiveness in your reply to nasah? After all, nasah has never defended, let alone promoted, any kind of violence.

Sure, you may wish to counter soy`s assertions, or question their relevance, but why adopt an accusatory tone against nasah of all people?!

If many Muslims have gone the wrong way that doesnt mean that many Hindus haven`t, or haven`t before.

If you`re as sick as I am of these religious louts and their political masters who snack on the entrails of innocent people and add to the miseries of their already wretched lives, read on. It takes courage to speak up against them (especially a corporate house), since these goddamned politicians maintain control by the threat of harrassment and closure if businesses don`t fall in line. Hope more influential people come forward and draw a line in the sand.

India Inc. speaks up: ‘If govt can’t protect lives, it should go’

Which kind of govt allows killings of women, children?...Home Minister, even the Prime Minister should take their share of blame: HDFC chairman DEV CHATTERJEE

MUMBAI, MARCH 28: The chairman of India’s leading housing finance firm, HDFC, Deepak Parekh, isn’t known for losing his cool. But today he’s bitter and angry, not at the economic downturn or a bad budget or falling interest rates which mean bad news for his company. But because of Gujarat and the way the government—both at the state and the Centre—have handled the violence.

‘‘What is a government elected for?’’ asks Parekh, speaking exclusively to The Indian Express. ‘‘If they can’t protect innocent lives... then they should go. Which kind of government allows the killing of women and children?’’



‘‘Riots have damaged India’s reputation more than anything that’s affected Pakistan. Do we always need to sabotage our chances of growth and international goodwill?’’





Incidentally, Parekh has been entrusted with several key responsibilities in the past by successive governments including devising a restructuring plan for UTI. Today, as the first corporate leader to speak his mind on the carnage in Gujarat, Parekh says the Central government must be blamed equally for letting the situation go out of hand.

‘‘With due respect, I think the Home Minister and even the Prime Minister should take their share of blame. It’s a national failure,’’ he says. ‘‘Everyone knows Godhra is a volatile city. The carnage had tell-tale signs of external links. The state government should have investigated those involved instead of letting VHP go out of hand. They could have taken help from international investigating agencies instead of killing innoncent people,’’ he says.

The carnage after Godhra has hit business sentiments badly, he says. In fact, he says he’s witnessing first-person how badly the Gujarat riots have hit India’s largest business community — the Gujaratis.

Hopping from one board meeting to another, he is only getting bad news. ‘‘Can you believe that sales of many manufacturing companies have collapsed in Gujarat in the crucial fiscal-end month of March due to riots?’’

Over the last 25 years Parekh made a financial powerhouse of HDFC offering home loans, to insurance and mutual funds and roped in international partners like Standard Life. Today, he’s not sure what the future holds. ‘‘As very few people are coming out due to curfew, our home loan and other businesses are obviously hit,’’ Parekh says.

‘‘I belong to Gujarat. I’ve lived there and it pains me to read in international as well as our papers that Gujaratis are barbaric and indulging in genocide.’’

‘‘Riots have damaged India’s reputation more in the international forum than what is happening in Pakistan. Do we need to always sabotage our own chances of growth and international goodwill?’’ Parekh says now it’s up to corporate India to step out and pitch in.

‘‘Indian corporates must come out in re-building Gujarat. The way we have done after Bhuj earthquake. We can open community centres, build burnt-down houses and educate children who have been orphaned. We at HDFC will certainly do our bit,’’ he says.

Among other plans, Parekh prescribes that the non-governmental organisations must be roped in to help minority families re-build their lives. ‘‘Indians have always been peace-loving people. It’s only due to politics that the nation has been divided. May the doctrine of live and let live prevail,’’ he says.

re:Reply #: 368

nasah,

Your religion is at a stage when it has to find ways of finding wider acceptance among non-mulsims who think there is something terribly wrong with your religion (note my word ``think``). As one white nurse i work with put it succinctly, ``Islam seems to be stuck in a time warp``. I am only amused that, things being so bad with your religios Zealots (so many of you guys are willing to kill innocent people in the name of God; look at Hamas, Hizbollah etc), you find time to discuss if Hindus really massacred Buddhists or not. Is Soysauce a historian? Why do you not do some real research and find out for yourself what exactly happened. I have often discussed this issue at length in the past. Even if Hindus did massacre, what of it? It is all a part of history. Wake up guys and smell the SH!T. It has islamic terrorism written all over it. Read the articles coming out of your dailies as to how innocent muslims in US are paying a price for follies of a few fundoos. You should be discussing this and not what hindus did (or did not do)to the Buddhists.

Sridhar

Re: Mushy`s betrayal?

Guys,

I had always suspected Mushy of being a dubious person. He is shrewd, conniving. He seems to have taken US for a ride. At least Jim Hoagland seems to think so in ``Washington Post``. The Url:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28654-2002Mar27.html

The last para in this article is interesting and i quote:

``False allies are often more troublesome for America than declared enemies. The moral and diplomatic drift on Pakistan now strongly resembles the failure of the first Bush administration on Iraq in the late 1980s. Saddam Hussein`s threats to incinerate Israel and invade Kuwait were explained away by State Department experts as rhetoric. Iraq was seen as too important to confront -- or even to describe its actions truthfully. The second Bush administration is on the road to making exactly the same mistake with Pakistan.``

Sridhar

nasah saab

bilkul :)

Reply Prem, Soysauce 366 (er, I think)

Hindus won`t become tolerant untill they recognise their intolerance. Ditto for Muslims. Ditto for anybody. So...the intolerant need to realise that they are before they can deal with it. I`m not comfortable putting a religion to it, but:

It`s much easier to do that if you feel ``the others`` are also doing it - makes one less defensive, certainly less vulnerable to be blamed (especially as the discourse of the intolerant - see how it goes on Chowk if you don`t believe me - always includes hurling abuse about intolerance and hatefulness at the ``other side``).

I see it happening like this:

Scene: a school auditorium. The ``I am An Intolerant Fascist`` twelve step group has just met. Mr and Mrs Hindutva are piling some of the excellent free samosas and green chutney on their plate, when Mr and Mrs Islamicjihad show up with plates AND napkins.

Mr H (to his wife): See Sarla, you forgot to get napkins. Abh mere naye suit ka kya hoga? (pouts)

Mrs H: Buss, main apne intolerance ke bare mein ithni gahri soch men thhee, ke...

Mrs I: (to Mrs H) Hello jee...I couldn`t help overhearing...dekhiye, we have some spare napkins, why don`t you...

Mrs H: Thank you, thank you. (Pauses, slightly embarrased.) Tho....aap bhi intolerant hain, kya?

Mrs I: Jee, Jee (to Mr I) Look dulling, yeh bhi hamare jaise intolerant hain.

(Smiles all round.)

Mr I: Hello, hello, great pleasure.

(They all get samosas and sit down happily discussing their prejudices and the latest Pinkyfeld episode on Z-TV)

Mrs I:``Nahin, kasam khathi hun...Mullah Mendacity ne...``

Mrs H:``Hau jee hau...``

Mr H: (to Mr I) ``Vaisai, I never watch it, but Sarla kahthi hai ke...``

Mr I:``No, no, me neither, too busy at work...but, actually, voh Auntyji hai, na, absolutely like my chachi in Peshawar...``



Or have I gotten the wrong idea here? Prem - can we package restaraunt as some sort of 12-step headquarters...I think more profit...Shankar bhai ko aap daavath deejiye.

http://www.asiasource.org/news/special_reports/rashid.cfm
AsiaSource Interview with Ahmed Rashid, March 21 2002

``...Q:Pakistan`s support seems to have been critical to the Taliban, not least because Pakistan wanted to use Afghanistan as a base to train militants for Kashmir. There are many things that point to continuing sympathy with the Taliban within the Pakistan security and intelligence community, despite the regime`s formal backing of the war: the removal of top ISI and military generals directly before the American military operation, the kidnapping and murder of Daniel Pearl, and most recently, the attack on the church in the diplomatic enclave in Islamabad. How much sympathy do you think there is in Pakistan`s military and intelligence establishment for the Taliban? Given these lasting sympathies, how reliable a coalition partner is the Musharraf regime in the so-called war against terrorism?


Unfortunately, the Musharraf regime has not carried out the promised crackdown on these militant groups that it had pledged to do after his January 12th speech. The 2,000 militants who were caught have all been freed, none of them have been charged with anything, and the leadership is now free.

Out of the extremist groups who were banned, hardly anyone has been caught and certainly no one has been charged for the sectarian killings these groups were involved in (several of which have occurred following September 11th). So we are seeing a very weak response: the performance of Musharraf does not match the rhetoric of Musharraf. This is clearly exacerbating the situation.

There is still support among some sections of the military for the Taliban. But more important than that, there is a very powerful group of retired and serving intelligence officers who have, over the last 20 years, built up very effective grids with each other and with militant groups, and are fuelling these extremist groups even now. Nothing has been done to stop them, especially the retired officers, who are giving simply outrageous statements which are undermining Musharraf`s attempts to crack down on these groups. But the army refuses to discipline these generals; there are very senior retired generals from the Pakistan army who are making scandalous remarks which are fuelling extremist sentiment in the country and confirming the impression that there are anti-Western grids within the military.


Q:But do you think the Americans are aware of this? And if they are, what are they doing about it?


Unfortunately the new American relationship with Pakistan has become too dependent on one man too quickly. I think Musharraf`s visit to Pakistan last month demonstrated that; there was lots of praise for Musharraf but nothing was said about Pakistan (no word about the need for institutional building in Pakistan, no praise for the Pakistani people who have been supporting the crackdown on extremism, etc.). Unfortunately the relationship has been dominated by dependence on one man.

We have seen this before in American foreign policy: with people like the Shah of Iran, for instance, and even now, in Central Asia, with Karimov in Uzbekistan. It is much easier for the Americans to deal with one man but this is not an effective policy. These countries need institution-building procedures which will of necessity go beyond dependence on one man. We are not seeing that process; it almost appears as though the American administration is having a love affair with Musharraf but has no time for Pakistan, the country, or its people. ...``

Dear AnNy:

Aap ka gossa sur ankhon per. I am sorry I was not aware of your family tragedy in Gujarat.

Considering that -- my post was very rude for the occasion -- my repeat apology for hurting your feelings AnNy -- you`re NOT times 10 -- ``backward`` -- in fact you`re very progressive -- I make sure to read your erudite posts -- every one of them.

If it is any CONSOLATION to you -- ``meri baari kub ki achuki hai`` -- in `47.

So please maan jaiye -- thoraa gossa theek hai --zeyada gossaa na kareiN -- maaf ker deiN.

Bhai tahmed saheb is TOO NICE to give me epistaxis -- but tee bhai saheb at times does act a little WEIRD -- I will have to agree with madani miaN -- on that.

Soo -- friends again?

Anoop miaN vs Ashok miaN

Here is my unsolicited unbiased judgment on your -- Kolkata vs Mumbai fight.

What one satayajeet ray`s is to one thousand bollywood`s -- one kolkata kommie is to one thousands mumbai (SS) marathas

Viva la kolkata

Dear Soysauce:

You write:

````Historically, the saivites & vaishnavites used to go at each other. A pandya king (in madurai) had thousands of jains killed after he had been reconverted to the one true dharma (TM).````

Now there is another event Iwanted to ask you if it has any validity.

One of my friends from Gaya Bihar, Dr. Srivastava showed me the Bodh Gaya temple -- in 50`s. He told me there was a massacre of Buddhists and Buddhist monks there -- and Buddhism was almost wiped out from its origins in Bihar by the resurgent Hinduism with some big time killings.

He showed me in the ruins of an adjoing structure -- a statue of Kali with a mala strewn with baby Bhuddha`s heads around her neck -- and Baby Buddha under her feet.

Do you know anyting about this event. Is this a historical fact or a fiction?

Saminashah:

I know the Ramdas`. Their daughter was my classmate in high school. Their oldest daughter is married to a Pakistani. They were married when he was still a serving Chief of the Navy. His father -in-law was the first Indian Naval Chief, Adm. Katari. Ramdas used to be his ADC, and married Katari`s daughter.

dost-mittar, tvarad

I`m not denying that shah bano had a polarizing effect on the hindu middle-class mind set. But i think that without meenakshipuram (the impact of which was not limited to s.india) preceding it, the shah bano case would eventually have passed into oblivion. It`s true that shah bano stands out today but not meenakshipuram, quite disproportionate to their effect on hindu psyche, because shah bano is a more justifiable event to be resentful about.

Indira amended the constitution what, a dozen times? What`s one more time to get all hot & bothered about?

soy,

Zafar is on to something. Threat and tolerance seem impossible to put together. We ought to strive to remove mutual threat perceptions. When people feel comfortable with one another, they are less likely to turn to violence.

www.asiapacificforum.org

Admiral L. Ramdas, is a retired chief of the Indian Navy and an ardent advocate for global nuclear disarmament. As one of the most prominent personalities in the South Asian disarmament and peace community, Admiral Ramdas is currently heading the Indian chapter of the Pakistan India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy. He is also a member of the National Committee of India`s Coalition for Nuclear Disarmament and Peace, a national organization dedicated to complete elimination of nuclear weapons in South Asia and in the world. Admiral Ramdas is a frequent speaker in national, regional and global forums on Indian-Pakistani relations, nuclear matters, peace, and disarmament. His writings on these issues have been widely published.

Lalita Ramdas, is an educator and activist on literacy, gender, education, and peace issues. She is an active member of the Pakistan India Peoples Forum for Peace and Democracy, as well as other initiatives dedicated to increasing people to people contact between the two South Asian neighbors. Lalita has written extensively on issues pertaining to literacy, gender, education policy, education and human rights, peace and nuclear issues.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#330 ZAT

From Aakar Patel (How many A`s is that?):

``we dislike everybody and our timidity and our apathy, as ambedkar pointed out, is mistaken for our tolerance.``

How tolerant are the hindus? As tolerant as the pakis are towards the minority hindus, christians and parsis. It`s easy to tolerate people who don`t pose a threat, real or imaginary. Historically, the saivites & vaishnavites used to go at each other. A pandya king (in madurai) had thousands of jains killed after he had been reconverted to the one true dharma (TM). The method of killing would have made aurangazeb proud. The subject would be made to sit on the pointy (& well-greased) top of a stake and would be left to die a slow & painful death out in the sun.

For hindus to become tolerant, they first need to recognize that they are not.