An Equal Reaction

Sugar Lips # 294

It is Rod Stewart and not Stevie Wonder, sugarlips.

On a different note today I was thinking about the maxim that when a women says `yes`, she actually means `no`; and when she says `no`, it means `may be`. And when she says `may be`, she means `yes`.

Reply Urstruly # 277

“There is a differnce between Anti-Semitism and Anti-Nazi-ism.”

That’s right Pork Chop, there certainly IS! Anti-semitism is opposition to, or hatred of, a particular religious or ethnic group.

Anti-Nazi-ism is opposition to, or hatred of, a particular political idea which incorporates the opposition to, or hatred of, a religious or ethnic group.

One of the few people here who seems to oppose and hate a religious or ethnic group is you. Illustrated by the vulgar abuse with which you express yourself.

“How many times do I have to tell you that I am not Ghazni ki aulaad, I am Ram`s aulaad, being Soorya Vanshi rajput and all.”

You don’t like my theory? Please reconsider, we couldn even be related…(if Stuka can cop rellies in Hamdan, after all, who are you and I to shrink from the harsh light of truth?)

Your fan

Zafar

Reply Dost-Mittar # 275

Zafar: ``(Further complication: at this point we`re carrying on as if Dost hold these feeling about Indian Muslims - I don`t believe he does, but if he brings them up, I think it`s worth dealing with because some people in India certainly do.)``

Dost: “I am surprised you said that.”

Dost Mian – please re-read what I wrote (above). The feelings I refer to as NOT being had by you (er…English circular, but meaning clear?) are those “Muslims are foreigners” ones. Further I said that I trust your motivation in bringing up issues, and am happy to deal with them in good faith. Khush?

“It may have started that way but has definitely been an ``upwardly mobile`` phenomenon. I was surprised to see the popularity of artistically-trash TV serials on Ramayan and Mahabharat in the upper middle class homes.”

Nobody can accuse us of being a people excessively burdened by astringent good taste. This is a nation that was weaned on Chitrahaar, after all.

“I think that the Shah Bano case was the pivot which turned the Hindu elite opinions. I am amazed at the underestimation of this event by Muslim Indians (not by You, nor my favourite Indian journalist, M.J.Akbar).”

The Shah Bano case’s political relevance really DID pass many of us by. I saw it as a civil rights issue for Muslim women, but it’s import was apparently quite different for many others.

Regards.

Reply Anoop # 266

“…Rest assured I am no fascist nor do i hold a torch for them. I was only exploring alternatives to the hate-defeats hate arguments.”

Anoop – I guess we all did jump up and down shouting variations of “you admire India’s HITLER?!!! Hai, hai, taubah etc.”. :-(

Re: exploring alternatives to the hate defeats hate argument – I think it’s probably necessary to take a calm look at what the Sena does for its constituency that other organisations fail to do. And are these things desirable, or achievable without disadvantaging other groups in the city?

One thing the Sena definitely did was economically empower Marathi speaking people in Bombay – though perhaps it’s more accurate to say that the Sena spearheaded that movement. And the fact that this movement was so popular speaks volumes about the position of Marathi speakers in what used to be in many economic arenas a Gujarati (for example) speaking city. Meaning the Sena’s success stemmed at least in part from the failure of other groups to deal with the issues of Marathi speaking people.

Zafar

Re: Ali1

``…90`s was quiet because of the massive muslim retaliation in Bombay and not because of a change of Hindu heart…``

I am afraid that I disagree with that analysis. If that were true, what prompted the `Hindu heart` to change in Gujarat? Amnesia? The VHP/Bajrang Dal`s probably salivate at the thought of igniting a religious war. After all, if as you say massacring Muslims pays rich dividends, would this not deliver to them the opportunity of a lifetime and eventually complete political control in Delhi without a dependence on pesky allies?

The 90s were quiet because they were the decade of fastest economic growth in India in perhaps a millennium. Even bigots confided to me in India that everyone was too busy with their careers/businesses to think much about religious tensions.

``…Pakistan`s borders were open for ALL Indian muslims till 1951…``

What is so sacrosanct about 1951? Is it not an arbitrary cut-off date? Is nationalism limited by the whims of a bureaucrat establishing dates? Why not open Pakistan for all time for Indian Muslims, if for no other reason than to show India where the loyalty of India`s Muslims truly lies and how despicable their lot is there? If, as you say, the not so `smart` ones did not emigrate, then perhaps now they will jump at the opportunity to India`s embarrassment? What about the Bangladeshi Biharis?

``… it questions the ability of W. Pakistanis to provide a just and equitable share in governance to Bengalis…``

I see - so ethnic identities (Bengali and Punjabi) trumped religious identities, didn`t they? And they continue to do so even today with Bihari Muslims languishing in Bangladesh. Yet you go on to contradict yourself by saying:

``… Bengali muslims, like Punjabi Muslims and Gujarati Muslims, and all other muslims of Indian origin are a nation distinct from Hindus; and can only surrvive and prosper in their own homeland…``

Perhaps you mean many homelands (one each for Tamil Muslims, Malayali Muslims, Kannadiga Muslims, Telegu Muslims, Marathi Muslims…) since the Punjabi-Bengali experiment did not quite succeed resulting in mind-numbing violence? And, ah yes - you continue to express your solidarity for Indian Muslims by providing more political fuel to their mortal enemies the RSS/VHP and the Bajrang Dal. With friends like you, who needs enemies?

``…Please be a bit more honest than this…``

I am being honest. Have you seen the February election results of Punjab, UP, Uttaranchal and Manipur? BJP lost everywhere. Could not even win in the state where Ayodhya is.

``…Massacring muslims pays rich dividend in India…BJP WILL WIN ELECTIONS IN GUJARAT IF HELD TODAY…``

You know what, if the Modi government in Gujarat were so sure of this, they would call for snap elections right now (the current legislature has no more than two years left, perhaps only one, I think) and give to themselves another 5 years of unchallenged rule. Modi is too clever a politician to let this one pass. But they are not doing so. Why do you think this is so? Winning elections will certainly lend them some degree of respectability, would it not? What gives? I`ll tell you the answer - the glare of the national media. Not a single TV network is supporting the Gujarat government`s actions.

I too have heard that if elections were held today, the BJP will win. Shameful as it may be, I am not so sure that the results will be what you think. And, I have heard some Indian commentators state that the BJP cannot be sure of winning in Gujarat.

With the all-round condemnation that the Gujarat govt., the BJP, VHP and Bajrang Dal is receiving in the press and from all Indian interactors on Chowk, how do you suppose they will win elections?

What you have failed to observe is that these riots have polarized opinion in India against the VHP/Bajrang Dal`s like never before following riots. They have initiated a debate within BJP about what should be its future course of action - ditch the Sangh Parivar or the NDA? Regardless of what the BJP decides, I think that the middle class has become very sensitive to such unbridled orgies of violence. There is a public outpouring of revulsion. And such public shame and infamy is far MORE effective in preventing a recurrence of such violence than any Hindu or `muslim retaliation`.

re: Ali2 # 312

That was in terrible taste. All this Hindu/Muslim, Indian/Pakistani sh1t is ok, but don`t stoop so low as to poke fun at someone`s family`s troubles. And that too, troubles caused by us bloody Indians who go around proudly beating the drum of democracy and secularism.

We have been stripped naked of our pretenses. Now, at least leave the fig leaf alone to keep the shame intact.

ali1 #318
``It is also obvious that Indian muslims are hostages held to political ransom by the Hindus. Think about the consequences for Indian muslims before asking for Kashmir``.``

The descriptions of Al Qaeda documents on the front pages of world newspapers reveals who exactly is holding Kashmiris to ransom, namely sundry busybody Pakistanis from places like Gujranwala, Bahawalpur and Karachi.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/international/asia/17DOCU.html

``...Son of Mr. Muhammad Anwar, owner of sweet store. Age: 18 years. Status: Unmarried. Education: Matriculate and learned Koran by translation. Knows how to make sweets, and can hunt birds and fish. Five brothers and four sisters. Address: Kamoke District Gujranwala, at Saboki dandian. Got permission from home happily.``

Of a man code-named Hafiz Abu Muhammad, the document says: ``Education: Matriculate, memorized Koran. Knows how to embroider. Served in military for three and a half years. He is fond of jihad; that is why he came to us.``

``Sixteen-year-old Hafiz Muhammad Arif was the son of a customs officer and had five brothers and four sisters, one in medical school. ``No permission from home,`` the list says. ``His [family] wanted to send him to America. Impressed by the speech of Mr. Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman Khalil,`` Harkat`s leader...``

``Oh, and thanks for not calling us Pukistanis``

As long as you remember it at the appropriate time, I donot need to.

Shammi and Dost-Mittar:

Women and children recovered on either side under the Abducted Persons act 1949(between 1947 and 1955), and as listed in ``Borders and Boundaries - Women in India`s Partition, by Ritu Menon and Kamla Bhasin`` are as following.

Number of women and Children recovered from Pakistan = 9032

Number of women and children recovered from India = 20728

The same book also mentions some examples in favour of dost-mittar`s argument of un-acceptance of such women and also difficulty in recovering them from far flung areas of NWFP and other inaccessible rural areas.

Reply # 303 sadna

[``it makes it even more obvious the TNT-minded have absolutely no stake in the safety of Indian Muslims``]

It is also obvious that Indian muslims are hostages held to political ransom by the Hindus. e.g. ``Think about the consequences for Indian muslims before asking for Kashmir``.

Oh, and thanks for not calling us Pukistanis, didi.

Reply # 304 shammi

[``I meant the violence in Gujarat in Feb./March this year. The last communal riots that took place in India were in `92 (If I am unaware of any riots in the intervening years, they were probably too small in comparison to the recent violence). The interim years have been quiet.``]

90`s was quiet because of the massive muslim retaliation in Bombay and not because of a change of Hindu heart. That is why the Hindus went after the Christians during the 90`s.

[``So you are completely ignoring the fact that when East and West Pakistan could not get along it questioned the very basis of religion-based political structures``]

No it does not question TNT. It questions many things... it questions the ability of W. Pakistanis to provide a just and equitable share in governance to Bengalis; it questions the ability of Pakistan`s Armed forces to fight Indian financed and supported terrorists...... But it reaffirms the TNT. Bengali muslims, like Punjabi Muslims and Gujarati Muslims, and all other muslims of Indian origin are a nation distinct from Hindus; and can only surrvive and prosper in their own homeland.

On ``abandoning``, like I said Pakistan`s borders were open for ALL Indian muslims till 1951. Those who didn`t have the means to migrate were unfortunate, those who had the means but chose not to are now suffering the consequences for not being ``smart``...

[``or that (Indian polity) has handed political defeats to the sympathizers of the riots?``]

Please be a bit more honest than this. Massacring muslims pays rich dividend in India. BJP WILL WIN ELECTIONS IN GUJARAT IF HELD TODAY!! I have yet to see an Indian commentator say otherwise.

semipreciousme:

“Where do you get your enlightenment from?”

….it’s a woman thing….

methinks you have not heard of Indira Gandhi!!! or if you have, you are probably unaware of her gender!! :)

Zafar: will write to you in person. Thanks for the email.

Ali#1:

Secular Hhindu being an oxymoron eh? For once I think I can agree with you. But I`ll take it further...secual attached to any religious emblem is an oxymoron.

Think of all the clap trap we post here...and to what end...People died 50 years back, and they died last week...and we carry on sitting on our arses...doing bakwaas...nothing but bakwaas.

The Ice Candy Man said it right...``Hum sub haraami hain!``

Reply # 306 tvarad

[``Pakistanis killed 1.5 million Muslims (a conservative estimate, actual toll may have been much higher) in 1971 in the space of 9 months.``]

Uncle Tom Sigalph will thump your head with a dead fish (sor pe mosli marega) if he finds out that you have reduced the toll by 50%.

Personally, I think Pakistani Army did overstep its mandate in fighting the Mukti Bahini terrorists and Indian Army/BSF regulars in their ranks, but these numbers are absurd to say the least.

BTW, what do you say of the Bengladeshis who have allowed ISI to operate against their liberators from their soil? Did you count the number of Pakistani flags in the last Pakistan-India cricket match in Dhaka and compare those with the number of Indian flags (zero as I recall)?

[``Every year, thousands of Muslims are slaughtered in Pakistan in the name of religion.``]

We are aware and ashamed of the fact that we have not been able to catch and punish the Indian, Saudi and Iranian agents who are killing innocent Pakistanis in the name of religion. But it takes some degree of be-ghairti to compare this with India.

I am very sad and ashamed to hear that tragic story - specially since I belong to that city. }

Did I tell you about the story where sunnis in Pakistan threw grenades at my relatives. I cant make it a tear jerker like Anny did , but I can sure try.I can throw in a few dolls, cup cakes and sweetiepies too, to make it interesting.

re: shammi

{{f) Constitute a commission of inquiry chaired by a sitting or retired judge of the Supreme Court}}

please, leave the Supreme Court (the one sacred institution in India) out of the nasty politics of commissions setup by nasty politicians...let the court do its job, which is to judge right and wrong and yank the leashes on politicians when they fcuk up...

RE: Reply #: 302 shammi

``Truth:

Here is what Vajpayee should do if he is interested in healing the wounds in Gujarat:``

shammi,

I agree with all your points and would like to add one more.

He should declare the happenings in Ayodhya as a threat to national security equal in import to what is happening on the border and should state that he will take whatever steps are necessary to root out future acts of evil on that count.

One of the bright spots in this sordid episode is the role of the media which has put the lens in places where it has never gone before. The pictures and video of refugee camps in India, burned out buildings etc. brings home a sense of mortality to anyone who sees it and is bound to shape set responses based on religion affiliation to something more human. The fact that the politicians are berating the TV networks is a good sign that the latter are doing their jobs.