We, The Muslim Americans

re fuzair 382

``However, Israel has not given the right to vote to ALL Palestinians under its rule (West Bankers and Gaza Strip), just to the ones it couldn`t ethnically cleanse in 1949.``

That is akin to intellectual dishonesty. You guys don`t want Israelis to annex Gaza and Judea/Samaria but will criticize it for not giving the ballot to people who live there? It cannot be both ways, pal.

Ethnic cleansing? Israel is a babe in arms. You want to see ethnic cleansing, look a few hundred mile north of there to a city called Hama-enough said.

Israel is different from the white settler colonies by virtue of a simple fact: it was the ancient land of Moses and the Hebrews who were driven out by the Babylonianas and later Romans whereas the Dutch did not show up in S Africa till they came with ther warships and what not. You know it but it is inconvenient in your effort to paint Israel in terms of apartheid and racism.

re shammi 358. Actually the 2000 Camp David proposals that Arafat rejected would have given him part of the eastern portion of Jerusalem too: no ISraeli govt will ever do that again. Once again the PLO proved the adage of Abba Eban, `The Palestinians have never missed an opportunity to mis an opportunity.`

Ain`t gonna happen again. The only durable peace, which may be part of a modified Abdullah plan, must guarantee Israel safe, secure, and defensible borders and keep a united Jerusalem as the ancient and eternal capital of the State of Israel.

re tahmed and honorary citizenship

Thank you sir. I most graciously accept it. BTW, I won`t have to sign those anti-Ahmadi statements would I?

ahmed madani #377

... this is the only post in this discussion about feudals that makes any sense .... thanks for putting things in perspective .... you are absolutley right - this is all lufangebazi ... sometimes the expak tries to be too clever ........

Guess its SHARON`s war after all.If the kill rate continues on average 1:10 the million suicide bombers killing ten times will decimate Israels few million jews in Israel.The only sugnificant surviving Jews as usual will berAmerican Jews ,who are better for being American & Not ISRAELIS anywayze!!!!!!!!

Car Bomb Hits Jerusalem; Palestinians Kill Collaborators

By Muin Shadid

TULKARM, West Bank (Reuters) - Palestinian gunmen killed 11 suspected collaborators Monday as Israel tightened its grip on the West Bank in a drive to isolate Yasser Arafat, entering another town and moving troops toward others.

High tensions boiled over again in Jerusalem when a Palestinian bomber blew himself up after police stopped the car he was in at a checkpoint on the edge of an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood, police officials said.



A policeman who opened the door of the car to search it was critically wounded and two other people injured in the blast on a street entering Mea Shearim district off a major feeder road.

Jerusalem police chief Mickey Levy said the bomber probably would have blown himself up in the commercial center of Jerusalem had he not been stopped in the less traveled area.

Israel has been hit by a wave of suicide bombings by Palestinian militants, including one in a restaurant in the port of Haifa Sunday in which 15 people were killed.

Police have deployed in force around the streets of Jerusalem and other Israeli cities following what security officials say are warnings of imminent attacks by Palestinians.

As the atmosphere of confrontation thickened over the Israeli offensive after a wave of Palestinian suicide attacks, Palestinian gunmen took the law into their own hands in the widest onslaught on compatriots accused of aiding Israel since a revolt against occupation began 18 months ago.

Two masked gunmen shot dead eight men being held in an intelligence building in the West Bank town of Tulkarm. A group of gunmen shot dead another at night in the biblical city of Bethlehem and two others were found shot dead in Qalqilya in the West Bank.

Arafat remained trapped inside his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah, besieged by tanks since last Friday, and fresh gunbattles erupted in the city as Israeli troops pursued a widespread sweep for Palestinian militants.

The army said an officer was seriously wounded and several others lightly injured from a battle which erupted when they searched a house in the center of Ramallah for ``terrorists.``

It said the soldiers had killed one Palestinian, wounded another and arrested another.

SNIPER KILLS ISRAELI IN SOUTH JERUSALEM

Israeli security sources said an Israeli was killed in southern Jerusalem by a Palestinian sniper positioned in the nearby West Bank town of Bethlehem.

World leaders have been urging both sides to show restraint to halt a slide toward all-out war.

Israel signaled there would be no letup in its military offensive to isolate Palestinian President Yasser Arafat, whom it holds responsible for the wave of suicide attacks.

``We are now in a state of war. We are not going to stop it until we reach our goals and see terror has stopped,`` Justice Minister Meir Shitreet told a news briefing.

``In the next few days, the next few weeks, we will speak to him (Arafat) in the language he knows.``

Islamic leaders expressed fury at Israel`s four-day-old siege of Arafat`s headquarters and a Jordanian official said Amman might expel Israeli ambassador David Dadon in protest.

Jordan and Egypt are the only two Arab countries to have signed peace treaties with Israel.

President Bush reiterated calls for Arafat to rein in militants, saying: ``There will never be peace so long as there`s terror, and all of us must fight terror.``

SHARON`S WAR ON `TERRORISM`

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who has vowed to wage an uncompromising war on ``terrorism`` after suicide attacks that killed 28 Israelis in the last week, sent tanks into the central West Bank town of Qalqilya for the second time in three weeks.

Residents reported heavy machinegun fire and explosions and said the Israelis had cut power and water supplies before moving in. The army said one soldier was badly wounded and seven were hurt when an explosive detonated during a house search.

A small contingent of tanks firing heavy machineguns also thrust into Tulkarm later Monday as helicopters circled overhead, witnesses said, but added that they later moved back to the city outskirts. The army denied the report.

Witnesses also said about 80 Israeli tanks and armored vehicles were massing near Nablus in the northern West Bank and massed on the edge of Bethlehem, just south of Jerusalem.

Four Israelis were wounded when a security post at the Jewish settlement of Beit El, just north of Ramallah, came under fire, Israeli security sources said.

In the Gaza Strip, hospital officials said an 11-year-old boy died of his wounds after being shot by Israeli troops in the town of Rafah. The army denied shooting him.

At least 1,130 Palestinians and 398 Israelis have been killed since the Palestinian revolt against Israel`s occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip began in September 2000.

ARAFAT ISOLATED

The Palestinians said Middle East envoys from the United Nations, the United States, the European Union and Russia were blocked from seeing Arafat because of Sharon`s policy of cutting him off from the outside world.

The envoys, who held a four-way meeting in Jerusalem, could not immediately be reached for comment.

The army said troops had stopped 50 foreigners, mostly Italians, from entering Ramallah, where they had planned to join others who reached Arafat`s headquarters Sunday.

In Beit Jala in the West Bank, a Palestinian television cameraman and seven peace marchers -- two Britons, two Americans and one each from Australia, Japan and France -- were injured by shrapnel when Israeli soldiers fired at their feet, witnesses said.

Re: Fuzair

``... My father`s family, to hear my grandmother tell it, had acres upon acres of badaam (or was it baeR?) kay bagh in Jhaggar...``

I think that it is pronounced as Jhajjar (in present day Harayana, district Rohtak) about 30 or 40 miles (max) south west of Delhi. I have been there once on a bicycle ride with a friend when the traffic used to be light. Believe me, if you had grown up in Jhajjar, you would have left it in a jiffy for the more sophisticated climes and career enhancing prospects of Delhi. Jhajjar (at least about 20 years ago) remained a cultural backwater. I am certain that today Delhi must have swallowed it up. I don`t get the occassion to make it that far when I am in Delhi. And it must have been baer (grapes, even that is doubtful) -- badaam`s do not grow very well near Delhi. The language spoken in the villages around Jhajjar is not Punjabi, it is a sort of rustic Hindi/Urdu. What language, may I ask, does your family speak?

Regards

Re: Fuzair

``...Obviously, since might makes right, it does have that right now--at the expense of the Palestinians...``

The Palestinians demonstrated their loyalty to the Emir of Kuwait when they were his `guests` until `91. And when they overreached in Jordan or Lebanon or Tunisia, who have joined Israel in being less than hospitable to them. There is no shortage of land or resources in any of the 22 Arab states to accomodate a Palestinian population that is half the size of Delhi, Bombay, Karachi or Lahore (take your pick), they have to ingratiate themselves to the hosts once in a while. And so right does not always flow from might, it also flows from occassional decent behavior. The Jews, more than any group in the 20th century, know the need to consolidate themselves because the `unjust` world did not protect them when they were spread across in many ghettos.

``...What is the basic difference between white settlers moving into S. Africa or Kenya, displacing natives and proclaiming their own state and European Jews moving into Palestine, displacing nativesand then proclaiming their own state?...``

The difference is whether the Masai in Kenya ever had half-a-chance at earning full political rights with their displacers, and whether they `invited occupation` through their actions. I am on shaky ground here (not knowing an unbiased account of this) but even today 20% of Israelis are Arabs who did not flee in `48. Had all Palestinians chosen (assuming that they were given a choice between fleeing and death) not to flee in the hope that they will soon be returning with victorious Arab armies, they just might have earned the same political rights as Jews. Another major difference is that Israel came to control so many Palestinians as a result of surprising victories in a war that was forced upon it in the war of `67.

``...As far as India and Pakistan are concerned, the situation is somewhat different since there was an exchange of populations...``

Keyword that is missing from the above is `voluntary`. There were many shameful, involuntary `moves` in the population exchange. So, Israel is not really a very different situation from India/Pakistan.

``... IF the natives of Pakistan had been ethnically cleansed to make room for Muslim refugees from India, the Israeli-Pakistani comparison would have been more apt...``

And that is precisely what happened (on both sides, may I add) -- people were expelled against their will to make room for refugees. Mind you, the popular narrative in both India and Pakistan denies this reality to this day.

``...The world isn`t fair and justice is just a nice idea to be debated in academic circles...``

I agree -- the Cherokee and the Navajo Indians figured this out much before I did.

``...BTW, why is it that any Jew, murderers included, can return to Israel but no Palestinian can?...``

For the same reason that only Muslims from India could migrate to Pakistan till `51 (I believe only Hindus and Sikhs from Pakistan can still migrate to India from Pakistan even today). Such artefacts are the unadulterated consequence of narrowly-defined nationalisms.

``... However, Israel has not given the right to vote to ALL Palestinians under its rule...``

Israel has not annexed W. Bank/Gaza -- it is up to the Palestinian Authority to administer those areas. These, and many other questions are related to the miscalculations of the Arabs/Palestinians. Israel did not have W. Bank and Gaza under its control till `67. A forced war (in `67) led to that particular dispensation. It is unfair on Israel to give it a bum rap for the denial of political rights of `conquered` territory in a war that it did not want -- I hope that you agree that Israel would not have had the occassion to seize these territories had it not been for the `67 war.

Regards. You ask good questions, and certainly make one think.

www.pacifica.com

Rsax, Sigalph, Shammi,

Can`t really address all the issues brought up at the moment; hopefully tom. But I do want to draw your attention to an extraordinary live broadcast I heard this morning on WBAI-perhaps if you check out the www.democracynow.org, you might be able to hear the recording-and its extremely disturbing.

Basically, an Italian photojournalist was reporting an attempted peace march in an area of Palestine. As the people in the march started walking, they were shot at by the Israeli army; all the listeners of that broadcast-myself included- heard the shots being fired, the soldiers shouting, and the Italian journalist cursing in horror and disbelief as the army began to fire on the marchers. Three people were shot, including a NY Times journalist, a 12 year old girl (she was shot in the belly) and a third person. Democracy Now then heard reports from doctors and reporter around Ramallah-there is a water, food, electricity and medical supply shortage, esp. in the hospitals. European and American observers have been coralled and are being held by the army.

My husband, no rabid fan of the left, also heard the broadcast and was shocked. We are going to watch BBC tonight and see if this is covered.

The events of the last two days are a clear indication that before anything, Israel must pull out of Ramallah and declare a cease fire.

Shammi

Your emotional outburst to equate situation in Palestine with Indo-Pak situation of 1947 has little or no effect on me whatsoever:)-mostly because this comparison is utter nonsense. Any way If I had chosen to respond to that outburst my response wouldn`t have been very different from that of Fuzair`s.

Your solution to the Palestinian problem is the only solution. In addition to that I must add that this solution must include the return of all Palestinians to the lands from where they have been ethnically cleansed. Would that translate into negating the state of Israel? No. Because it will ensure that Israel is not an apparthied state meant only for jews but for all who belong to its soil.

Fuzair

``My father`s family, to hear my grandmother tell it, had acres upon acres of badaam (or was it baeR?) kay bagh in Jhaggar.``

hahahaha

aur hamaray nana kay tau podeenay kay bagh thay, jis main saalay sher garja kartay thay :)

Re: Shammi

You are right. At one level that is indeed the case. Does Israel has a ``right`` to exist? Obviously, since might makes right, it does have that right now--at the expense of the Palestinians. What is the basic difference between white settlers moving into S. Africa or Kenya, displacing natives and proclaiming their own state and European Jews moving into Palestine, displacing natives (yes, yes, I know, some of the land was purchased from absentee landlords in Cairo, Beirut and Damascus; weren`t some of the land transfers in Kenya and S. Africa ``legal`` as well?) and then proclaiming their own state?

As far as India and Pakistan are concerned, the situation is somewhat different since there was an exchange of populations, not just a displacement of one group by another. My father`s family, to hear my grandmother tell it, had acres upon acres of badaam (or was it baeR?) kay bagh in Jhaggar. Can I reclaim that as well? No because its not quite the same thing as the Palestinians pushed out of their homeland to make room for European Jews although there are some superficial similarities. IF the natives of Pakistan had been ethnically cleansed to make room for Muslim refugees from India, the Israeli-Pakistani comparison would have been more apt. A better example would be that of millions of Germans kicked out of Western Poland after WWII to make room for ethnic Poles displaced by Stalin out of Ukraine. The German govt has gone out of its way to reassure Poland that it will not demand its lost territories back, so the issue is moot... at least for now.

So, might makes right and the world decided that Boers oppressing Bantus wasn`t to be allowed in S. Africa but Jews oppressing Palestinians is. The world isn`t fair and justice is just a nice idea to be debated in academic circles.

BTW, why is it that any Jew, murderers included, can return to Israel but no Palestinian can?

PS: Actually, some blacks in S. Africa--Cape Coloureds, I think but I could be wrong about the name of the group--had the right to vote until the 1950s but this was a very small portion of the electorate so I take your point. However, Israel has not given the right to vote to ALL Palestinians under its rule (West Bankers and Gaza Strip), just to the ones it couldn`t ethnically cleanse in 1949.

re shankar #367:

Let me admit that you are one Indian on this site who has the balls to really say it as you see it. Your analysis of ROmair incisive as it is misses an important detail. Military training can be the most debilitating illness known to man. It takes away the faculty to see both sides of the picture in favor of a blind obedience to following the orders of ones superiors. It is a natural consequence of preparing people for the inevitable do or die situations where one may have to lay down ones own life for the larger good without questioning. This makes good soldiers but terrible negotiators and politicians. That is why the massive number of military appointments in civilian enterprises in Pakistan has wrought and will continue to wreak havoc. The military mind likes giving and taking orders. The grey situations of the real world throws the military mind into confusion where he either looks for a South Indian or a legal wizard like Sharifuddin Pirzada to bail him out. The charade continues with Referendums and partyless elections and devolution plans thrown in for entertainment till the mangoes blow up again and the saga starts all over again.

Fresh NFL recruits have to go through an IQ exam to determine whether they will be able to understand the complex patterns and strategies the professional game employs these days. Except for the quarterback postion(e.g. Brian Griese of the Broncos has an IQ of 147, Steve Young of the 49ers had 155) the recruits with extremely high scores run the risk of being taken lower in the draft than others!! Theory being that the ones with extremely high IQs may not give their best shot in seemingly irretrievable situations or when they believe the gameplan is setup wrong. The same principle applies to military recruitment at the non-officer level. The `intelligence` test at least in Pakistani military is interpreted so that the highest scorers are actually not recruited. The ISSB recruitment for military officers uses the same principle but in more subtle ways. The questionnaires as well as psychological profiles look for other qualities beyond a certain level of `minimum` intelligence to come up with recruitment decisions. The ideal officer may not be the one you want running the local sewerage plant.

Your thoughts?

later

-sac

Re: Urstruly

``… The main bone of contention b/w Ph and Is is the israels` forceful evacuation of palestinian people, forceful confiscation of their land and property, and building of colonies…"

How the hell is this any different from what India and Pakistan did to each other in `47? This was supposed to have been redressed in the Partition Plan of `48, and later in the Camp David agreement of 2000. Do the colonies that you refer to include areas outside of W. Bank and Gaza? If so, then the `world` has already spoken through the UN Partition Plan (`48). I personally think that Israel should get the hell out of W. Bank and Gaza and roll back all settlements there. I also think that Arafat and the rest of the Arabs should normalize relations with Israel in return, and guarantee security for each other. Otherwise they can carry on business as usual.

The rest of your post degenerated into an emotional outburst. Sorry, but it had little to no effect on me.

Re: Fuzair

``…The simple truth of the matter is that Israel is the last of the white settler colonies and if one was opposed to the existence of white S. Africa, Kenya and Rhodesia (the first settlers in Canada, US, Latin America--most of it--and Australia are almost irrelevant now so we can exclude them), then one should also be opposed to the existence of Israel…"

The rub is that either one accepts that all narrow-ideology defined states (racist S. Africa, Israel, Rhodesia, Tamil Eelam, and yes, even Pakistan) are acceptable or they are not. The global evidence is decidedly mixed - the world has railed against apartheid, but not against Israel. After all the only two countries ever established for the advancement of people belonging to a certain religion are Israel and Pakistan (remarkably in nearly the same year!). The world has accepted both Israel (except for some Arab states) and Pakistan. However, the argument, as you put it, is basically tied to the notion of whether Israel has a right to exist or not. If one can accept the creation of Pakistan on the basis of a homeland for people belonging to a certain religion, then what is wrong with applying the same principle to Israel? The UN has accepted that Israel has a right to exist as a state. As long as everyone understands that this is what the real argument is about (it is about Israel`s right to exists and it is not about just real estate and W. Bank/Gaza) one can understand the intensity of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Some of the negotiation positions are really code words for Israel`s right to exist (e.g. right of return of refugees, etc.). (Heck, if this right is so sacrosanct, what prevents me from going back to Pind Dadan Khan and reclaiming the land my forefathers abandoned? It is time to move on). The Arab-Israeli conflict does not make sense if it were rooted in merely possession of real estate. As long as the Palestinians do not accept the right of Israel to exist, they will keep on screwing Israel, and themselves in the process. And the guys with the bigger guns will win. I am going to stay out of this conflict, and may the best `man` win.

PS: Racist S. Africa did not give blacks the right to vote (Arab Israelis have the same political rights as Jewish Israelis).

Regards

sigalph: You write ``I was never an ex-East Pakistani.`` You are hereby given honorary citizenship of Pakistan. You can even contest Musharaff on the forthcoming referendum for the president, as far as I am concerned. nasah, incidentally, is from India, not pakistan. Not that it matters, and I hereby make him honorary citizen too, what the heck.

Fuzair/Shammi: Ultimately, these two tired old men - sharon and arafat - will move on to the next world, leaving a mess of hatreds and misery behind for their people. Compared to these two, our leaders over the past 50 years (which includes turkeys like nawaz sharif and benazir) look almost like statesmen. Who would have thought that would ever be possible!!

Respected Editor....

Sir there lot of no understanding about Zamindars by expak babus who never touch earth but computer.

It is bad atitude to be be good to poors at landlords cost. Feudal is kind of word like kafir, haram, hindu, mukhmafi etc. When poor do not like they call other fudal. What is wrong having land and little better life than others just like expak. To be landowning is not joke, farmmaking is not easy. He may not work like hari but he provides management and money to put in land to grow crop and feed expak babus family in karachi ,who drinks coffi and smokes and drinks bear and make poem , talk about equality, blames govt, tell what govt should do, what mili plan for capure of K etc,blame white countries,make application for visa to white countries, critic arab brothers,hope for more handout from arabs,watch indian movies and channel,never fast during holy fast month, and NGO type all not good.

They are not right. If Feudal like Lion of Punjab Malik Mustafa Khar is bad then why industry owner is good. Industry man also make ppl work hard and make mony ok. No difference to Madani ok.If landowner makes mony in sugarcane by making hard work labor its bad. Sugar mill lords does same , sell sugar high cost then good. Industry like sugar wants ban hindu sugar as these greedy can sell at more price paki sugar. All lafangebazi.

I do not understand why critic feudal when industry man does same. WHY NOT ALSO STUPID INDUSTRY WORKERS MAKE EQUAL OWNERS THEN WE WILL DISTRIBUTE LAND TO SERFS. Then expak says worker is stupid he cant run industry. Same is true of farming ok. Well most farm worker are no better than animals except they can whine be lazy and burden on his lord when nobdy there go to sleep and snore under tree and only change position when sun hits his head instead of working in sun and repay for free loading on his landlord. There are too many useless farm workers, generally lazy and drink sharab at every chance if free. These are almost subhumans, at election time they vote as told like sheep for meal or sweets. They are taken to booth vote in trucks just like cattle. They have no brains they vote same.

Also do we want komunisty type like in india. Its against Islam. Islam does not preach equality but kindness.

World progress down for 2000 years due to equality search. All animals not same ok. All animals are not same. White dog, black dog different ok. Billi is not Sher though both eat meat ok. Lot of enrgy wasted on equality. Even more time wasted by politic ppl. Now we say all members of UMMAH same. Madani says if same why we need to proclaim and declair. We do not get together and declare sugar is good and sweet.Problem is that oil rich Arab does not believe we are same.He feels he has to carry burden of brown,dark muslim ummah. We are just good to work for them. Arab is wise uses our belief in UMMAH , we are stupid.

we are different ok. Generally rich people are better than poor ppl. Generally Landowning famly members are more smart better looking ( look at BB, ZAB , M.Ghulam Mustafa Khar etc) as they come from better stock. Its selective breedindg. While poor is at permanant disadvantage. He feels bad as he is poor and landless and no fun in life.

Poor has problem also. They are stupid , lazy and looking for handout all time. He watches too much TV and good life and feels more depressed. By nature he has excessive number of children and they are burden on society of good working ppl. They are generators of poverty and mouths to feed.

Its fashion not to tell poors to stand up and support themselves. He does not keep his children clean, they even sell their daughters in famine for 2000Rs. They are so stupid they some times live in lords prison as bonded labor. Unfortunately now educated babus are becoming like that. They blame on army, bb, ns, etc. But this poor bloody fool never blames himself or his parents for bad upbringing. There are rich ppl here bacause they were smart and hardworking.There are poor as their attitude is poverty. These EXpk babus worship poverty. ( its just like coal dark hindu saying HUm hay kale phir bhi dilwalay). Everybody is for poor praising him for poverty. Instead of praising for poverty they should be whipped for laziness and helpless attitude and should be punished for cranking out so many babies.

Over all fudal is ok. He is doing best he can in real bad situation when expak wants to kill his lifestyle with popular slogans. Fudals are doing good the problem is with expak bubu rabmle ,riot rousers. Without fedual expertise farm is go down and import required. Serf is brainless its like monkey looks and does same as man but we can not ask them work on farm, same ok surf is not addition to Feudals wealth but burden. No so many have cranked excess babies its burden and they will more happy if lahore and karachi accept and welcome .

OK I will do away with Fudal economic system if Industry owner also take away fudal and labor become owner. The system is there as it is viable and efficient. We democracy want ok but best system is mily. rule so it is there. Elephant lives in jungle he walks ways to adjust, camel lives in desert arab he had special type body to cope warm windy sand storm. All system in pakistan are ok. (PK is OK) Idea of revolution against fudal is all stupid as its bogas and cruel. stop anty Feudal attitude. Just stupid fashion of EXpak