We, The Muslim Americans

Re: Tahmed321 #276

Brilliant! Absolutely brilliant! All these theorists who sit on their rear ends in front of sleek computers represent the S. Asian elite. How easily we forget the teeming millions. They are out of mind, and out of sight. And life goes on...

Romair,

re: giving it up

Hear hear!

Urstruly, ` Do you know how expensive the medicines are in Paksitan?`

I heard that there is huge (good) drug smuggling racket on Rajasthan/Sind border. Cheap Indian pharamceuticals are making across in large quantities. The cost of pharmaceuticals in India is just about 4% of the international costs.

temporal (quoting Romair) on power structures: ``1)Feudals 2) Big business 3) Military 4) Beaurecracy`` and calling for overhaul. One little problem: The third estate (peasants, urban and rurul in the 21st century third world countries) is missing. And yet, Pakistan is basically the third estate: they number perhaps 120 million, vs. 10 million who are in the 4 groups you note. Yet these 120 million Pakistanis are invisible, not only in the list that Romair put together, but in real life too. And I know what you are thinking right now, brothers Romair and temporal (``but...these people are not part of the power structure``), and you are both wrong. These are the only real power there is in Pakistan - because, if they are educated and productive, Pakistan`s future is secure; and if they are not, Pakistan`s future is bleak. Big speeches and petty theft (as members of the 4 groups you mention are prone to do) may be irritatants but they do not make or break nations. It it the people at large. The people who are invisible in the list Romair put together, the people who are invisible even as they knock on the windows of the air-conditioned, tinted glass cocoons in which the handful of people in these 4 groups go around. Even the 16th century Europeans recognized the power of the people by including peasants as the third estate...

Urstruly #260: ``Give it up, for God`s sake.``

You are a very interesting man, I must say :-). What exactly should I give up?

You have a great desire to be the center of attention. Not by providing information or arguing facts, but by creating controversy, and by speaking out against anyone and everyone, without providing anything original i.e. the Nawabzada Nasrullah phenomenon.

I would advise you to try to do something helpful and practical yourself. Instead of just making noise. And for heaven`s sake, don`t take your frustrations out on me, and don`t try to become the center of attention by using my name.

Could you kindly explain what you are asking me to give up? If you can`t then what is the point of all this raving and ranting? Your extremist emotional instability is very dangerous. You try to associate all groups of people with your perception of problems, without providing any facts.

Americans are in Pakistan, and they will take over Pakistan, so you try to blame it on me. What the hell do I have to do with this? When I provide you facts on why the Americans cannot take over Pakistan, you move onto the next issue, without countering my points, or admitting your mistakes.

Now, we are onto medicines. What the hell do I have to do with medicine prices in Pakistan? Could you kindly explain. I don`t know whether this is right or wrong. GST is a requirement of the IMF, which unfortunately controls Pakistan`s economy. I do know that Pakistan`s economic rating in all international orgs like Moodys etc. is higher than it was two years ago, as our Pakistan reserves. The debt situation is much better. And that this govt. has no corruption cases against it. This in and of itself, is a first.

I am a software businessman, making an honest living, and have made an honest living all my life. Kindly provide a list of what I should give up (so I have something for my New Year`s resolution), or get off my back. Or buy a punching bag, or go to Pakistan to make a difference, instead of making noise from a distance.

And why do you keep associating me with the military, as if I own it? This is funny and entertaining for a while, but then it gets old. I spent a brief portion (1/3rd) of my life in the military. 2/3rd of my life has been in civilian clothes. I served my country, and risked my life, and paid my dues, on an extremely low salary, even though I had qualificaitions which could (and eventually did) get me easily into Silicon Valley. Unlike yourself, who keeps screaming about innocents dying in Kashmir, without having the courage to risk his own life to protect them, I was ready to risk mine. If this is a crime, then hang me. At least I am not a hyprocrite.

``Do you know how expensive the medicines are in Paksitan. Do you have any idea what 15% GST translates into? It is shame that in this day and age people are compelled to go to mail order homeopaths just to stay alive so that they could becaome the fuel in the engine of ``progress`` that these dictators are running? Do you know how much disease there is in Paksitan? When it rains people get sick, when it doesnt rain people get sick.``

What the hell are you letting out your frustrations out on me for? You are begining to sound like a politician. Like Qazi Hussain. All talk, no action. If you feel Pakistan`s economy is in bad shape, and things need to change, then don`t support the current economic policies. If you think it is much better than the NS and BB days, then support the current policies. I didn`t make these policies.

There are far too many people on this site, who want to portray themselves to be holier than the pope, yet are unwilling to do anything practical. They are full of hot air, and just talk. They are unwilling to go and solve Pakistan`s problems themselves. They just make a career out of being critics. They have never even worked a single day, or paid a single penny of tax in Pakistan.

Why don`t you go to Pakistan and serve the country, like I did for ten years. What is stopping you, except for your own desires to stay in the evil West? Why do you just talk and talk and talk, like Nawabzada Nasrullah?

P.S. I would be interested in finding out if you have ever worked in Pakistan, and for how long? And how much tax have you ever paid in Pakistan? Also, what have you ever done practically to, ``protect`` Pakistan from these, ``foreign agents?`` Have you ever fought in Kashmir or been stationed there, or do you just blow smoke about this issue?

If your contributions on the above are more than mine, then let`s talk, otherwise go talk to Nawabzada Nasrullah, or fight it out with hamidm. Both of you are habitual critics, with nothing to offer on your own (at least hamidm is funny, and is just putting on a facade to entertain everyone).

In any case, you are an extremely interesting person; quite full of double-speak, but interesting just the same.

correction #259: ``160 + 230 + 160 + 100 = approximately 550``

should read

160 + 230 + 160 + 100 = approximately 650

````DullaBhatti

Which Feudals control the country??

Hundreds of Khakis get top civilian jobs

By Ansar Abbasi`s article``

The magnitude of the conquest of -- a ``not so backward Pakistan`` -- by its OWN ARMY is mind boggling.

SO it boils down to finally this -- the power grab at midnight -- at gunpoint -- by ``Messiah`` Musharraf from the hands of ``corrupt politicians`` -- was all about JOBS, JOBS, and JOBS -- his own tenure as -- the PPP (Permanent President of Pakistan) -- and all of his army buddies permanent EMPLOYMENT.

National Assemblies can come and National Assemblies can go -- the army will STAY in control of every aspect of Pakistan governance.

What a Masterly Machiavellian plan! Bravo!

Seriously folks -- If this is not -- the MOTHER of all CORRUPTIONS --then what is.

Re: #250

Sigalph235, I would like your opinion on the above post. Assuming, for a minute, that the thesis of #250 is correct (i.e. religious fervor is growing in Bangladeshi politics) could this be the rational response to ensuring that Bangladesh does not end up getting too closely aligned with India, and an Indian dependency? After all, if Bangladeshi politics simply mirror Indian politics, then there is a `risk` that W. Bengal and E. Bengal are really not that different, and hence there should be greater integration between the two. However, the one way to emphasize the difference is to reinforce religious identies. What is your perspective?

Romair: Here you go again. You have defined power bases without defining power. Some of the areas I can think of include, power to rule, power to control lives of others, power to collect and disburse taxes, power to set the agenda for internal and foreign policies and power to benefit selectively from the system.

Where do feudals fit in the power structure? The power to rule is totally in the hands of government and military. The power to control the lives and minds of others is mostly in the control of military, mullahs whereas feudal do influence the lives at local rural level to varying degrees of influence. Feudals have no control over other power decisions. What kind of feudal power you are talking about when all of them collectively can not set the prices of their biggest products, wheat and cotton. All of them would like to get the better price for their crops every year but they are powerless in the area that concerns them most. All the serfs and tenant farmers would have starved to death by now if they were exclusively at the mercy of “devilish” feudals.

Feudals can not be held responsible for the inefficiency of the successive governments. Lyallpur district is pretty feudal like many others. Did they ask feudals if changing the name to Faisalabad is okay with them? What is feudals contribution to the accumulation of foreign debt when no major project has ever been done in rural areas with loans from WB and the rest? Internal debt is also the result of mismanagement and large government compared to small revenues. What did feudals do to make PIA unprofitable? Efficient and honest democratic governments can very easily control a naturally declining feudalism; ascendancy of military, militarism and mullahism are much bigger problems due to the costs, rigidity, obscurantism, irrationality and turbulence associated with them.

i commend romair`s analysis of the situation because there has to be a revolution in the way the ecnomy of the country runs im talking massive land nationalization and then distrubtion to the common peasant..........romair is this why captains col and majors are found to be drivings cans in nyc cuz they have no power? romair i am interested did pakistan train oman`s army and saudi s?

Romair

Urstruly(I hate this guy) is actually right this time. If sugar becomes costly, poor people can live without it with some inconvenience, if kerosene becomes costlier, poor people can use coal ``choolha``, but if medicines go out of their reach.... they simply die. I am against any kind of taxes against the basic medicines since there is a lot of poverty and diseases in the subcontinent. May be General hasn`t got his priorities right. Or may be he thinks this way he can remove the scum of the population?

PS Basic medicines are a lot cheaper in India than in Pakistan. Perhaps that`s why the smuggling of medicines across the border is a flourishing trade.

Re: Romair

``..As a group, their power is in the following order, from highest to lowest: 1)Military (primarily Army) 2) Beaurecracy 3) Feudal 4) Big business...``

OK -- so feudals are the nemesis of Pakistan, and are not very powerful (as you indicated above), so what is the excuse of the most powerful institution (army) to NOT do anything about it since they hold all the reins of power today? By being derelict in this duty, is the army not indirectly responsible for promoting feudals, and is it not therefore part of the problem? One cannot duck from responsbility when in a position of authority.

Re: Romair

``... I think if India ever attacks Pakistan, and it seems like Pakistan is going to lose, China will attack India. Primarily for China`s own defense. If China loses Pakistan, it is surrounded on all sides by India and NATO, and Russia. Pakistan is no doubt the most important country in China`s geo-strategic plans...``

The above hypothesis rests on the assumption that the 400 km mountainous border that China shares with Pakistan is important enough to the USA to `plug` in order to `contain` China, and that that China worries more about threats from S. Asia than from the Pacific. Fact of the matter is, it is not. There is hardly any movement of trade across that border, and it is not a significant logistical line.

The most important country in China`s plans is Taiwan for ideological and political reasons, and the US because of its support for it. China`s population is based in the east, and Pakistan cannot protect that for China. And China is unlikely to get involved in a S. Asian conflict directly because its direct interests are not at stake. If China gets drawn into a major S. Asian conflict, it can only do so at the cost of abandoning Taiwan for ever. And that, the Chinese, will not do. Remember `71? In that war too, Pakistani security managers were convinced that the Chinese would intervene (even though the Chinese were careful enough to be publicly non-committal). Yet, again you are chasing the illusion of Chinamen fighting shoulder to shoulder alongside the Pakistani army, when they have not even made a single public utterance to that effect (much less sign a mutual defense treaty). Besides, China does not have the capability to project force for the long-term (ie. maintain occupation forces, logistical line) across the Himalayas. The logistics are beyond them (or anyone for that matter).

Most `responsible` states (and the Chinese are one of them) are extremely reluctant to get drawn into far-off, distant conflicts in today`s day and age. There are simply too many profitable ventures to pursue. Further, if they do get involved in a S. Asian conflict, it will be a cost of lowering their guard in the east, and postponing integration of Taiwan indefinitely.

So, while it is tempting to create these war scenarios, they need to be grounded in reality.

And BTW, why should Pakistan lose? What about the nuclear deterrence?

Try talking to retired US Defense Intelligence Agency analysts about China`s military capabilities and its threat to the US (they laugh it off in private). I have, and I was shocked to learn what a poor opinion the DIA has of third world forces with the Revolution in Military Affairs and concepts of Hyperwar that the Pentagon has adopted.

However, your logic and train of thoughts is very illuminating. It shows how insecure, and paranoid minds may react in a crisis when they make it to the top of a decision-making structure. I am certain that your PAF and PA buddies, when they make it to the top, in a future coup will look at the world like you do (with delusions like above). Perhaps, you are a `moderate` because of your exposure to the world. They probably still look at the world through the scanty news reports that they receive as they sit in the trenches in the desert. It also explains why top generals in Pakistan make self-defeating statements like, `Danny Pearl was too involved (Gen. Musharraf)`, or `The Jews had advance warning over 9/11 (Maj. Gen. Qureshi)` in public and to the media. These delusions have consequences, you know -- and it is the poor in Pakistan who pay for it.

Re: Hobbyty and Camh Ranh Bay

My point was that `wanting` and `needing` are different things. `Wants` without `needs` blow up in your face with horrible consequences. The USSR `wanted` Camh Ranh Bay, but they did not `need` it. Russia today neither `wants` it nor `needs` it. Russia does not have the trade, nor the need to protect SE Asian sea lanes to `need` Camh Ranh Bay.

Tri State Area Chowkies

A Concert to Benefit the victims of Gujrat

The Asian Pacific Forum and Samar Magazine are some of the sponsors of this performance to raise donations to help the communities ravaged in the violence in Gujrat.

Performing: Neela Bhagwat, an artist and activist who had released a CD of her sung interpretations of Kabir.

April 7th, Sunday at 5p.m.

Riverside Church, 120th and Riverside

Donations: Suggested donation is $20.00, but any amount will be appreciated.

Hope to see you there! If anyone needs contact info, please let me know.

...... ayaz amir is brilliant for an ex-fauji from chakwal

``The military government may flatter itself that it has God on its side as well as the `silent majority`. If this is so, what is it afraid of? With such powerful allies, why doesn`t Gen Musharraf wait for the national elections scheduled for later this year and then, if he is so keen to protect his `reforms`, present himself for election according to the procedure laid down in the Constitution? What need to look for short-cuts and other dubious measures? ``

..... now here is an idea ... why doesn`t musharaf throw in his beret into the ring and declare the army as a political pary .... they have failed miserably at defending the country or picking up the garbage - maybe they will do better as mna`s, mpa`s and senators ......so let the corps commanders, adjudant general, military secretary and the quarter master general run for office, and may the best general win .......

......... the only problem i see with this is that most of the potential parliamentarians are concentrated in the one square mile area between the army sports stadium and lalkurti...... there is also nobody to represent this ``party`` from chak-36 ( billo`s home town) and lethra in dg khan district........ so we will have to split up the ghq gang and set them up in dera bugti, chak-45, gojra and balakot .......so let us move jag to gojra and the ms to lethra and the qmg to dera bugti .......the next problem is how do we get the people to vote for the qmg instead of the oxford educated progeny of nawab akbar bugti ........ no problem - let`s give the kid a special commission through a special dispensation while the modalities of the election are being worked out .... this would be legal because the ms could issue a farman which would be published in the army gazette and the coas would approve it because he could ........

..... this is brilliant .... so now all the generals are out of pindi, and we don`t have to fight all those staff cars when we go to pick up the kids from school ....not so quick! .....the generals turned mna`s will end up at the hostel on constitution avenue and black label will be impossible to find when the assembly is in session ! ....... i don`t know if ayaz thought about the consequences of this apparently brilliant idea ......... you can`t win for loosing ..........

nasahsaab

“So my question -- Why THIS “Nawabzada`` can`t be the President -- of a ``feudal`` Pakistan?”

…..because he’s surgically attached to his hookah…