We, The Muslim Americans

Israel`s attack on Arafat`s compound is outrageous. I fear that things are spiralling out of control there.

roamir #259

...... so we are going to blame it all on the dead field marshall ? ....i couldn`t get past the first paragraph because i knew what was coming - heard that story thirty years ago ......... by the way you forgot the general shahid hamid connection .... how silly can we get ! .... thirty years ago everyone was blaming the saigols and the munoos who today don`t even make the top fifty list ...and now we are blaming the saifullahs and the sharifs - and what about mian mansha who is the richest man in pakistan and by your definition should be up to something ......and by the way this man who is reputed to be worth at least ten billion dollars was not on the list of 22 thirty years ago ......... and don`t forget the dawoods who have always been connected to the government ... and what about nathu the butcher who has a brother-in-law who is musharaf`s batman - now that is a dangerous nexus if there ever was one !

.......... this is typical military chicanery - looking for excuses to perpetuate their stanglehold on pakistan and keep that captain from EME employed at the ariport exit control ... this graduate engineer and gentleman officer has a naik assisting him in driving the computer - god forbid he might break a nail on the key board ..... he is the problem, not begum saifullah or the wali of swat who is no more a feudal lord than billy bob down at the donut shoppe ...... the wali of swat can`t even afford to paint his ``palace`` - feudal indeed! ...... the real power in the valley is sufi mohammad`s tanzeem which can mobilize thousands of jihadis for the taliban ......

..... romair mian, all this feudal stuff is outdated - it was very true twenty thirty years ago, but today it sounds silly ........there is a new set of landless feudals and it is the generals - they want the land and the cricket board or else they are going to throw a temper tantrum......

......... things have changed - thirty years ago tahir ayub had the biggest house in the neighborhood, right next to the water tank ....... today his house is dwarfed by raja sahib`s house - raja sahib, who was our union council member, and his brother, who is now the naib nazim, used to own the bakery in the bazar and now own the pso gas station on the corner and are getting ready to run against sheikh rashid who, i might add, is also not a feudal .....sheikh rashid is a scoundrel and an idiot but you can`t help but love the man - he represents his constituency well........

......... there will always be alliances between big money and politicians, but that is not enough reason for the military to invade the parliament .....and by your definition even imran khan with his burki and goldsmith connections is a feudal - some might say he is connected to the zionists ........ so who do we vote for - asghar khan? ....some say that he and his brother brigadier ajmal are also feudals - their shagrila in skardu is a great place for a honeymoon ........aitaizaz ahsan, ijaz ul haq, rhodes scholar waseem sajjad ? ...... what the heck, let`s just vote for maulana tahir ul qadri who in the last election was a favorite with air force officers and brick kiln workers .......

Romair,

An informative reply.

Will comment later.

-YLH

Romair #259:

[...The Pakistani power structure consists of four groups, in my opinion: 1)Feudals 2) Big business 3) Military 4) Beaurecracy (not in any particular order)...]

...time for minor tuning is passed by...am afraid the time for major overhauling is almost over too...and the time to wipe the slate clean is upon us...

...well, only time can tell who is right:)...

rgds,

t

Romair

Give it up, for God`s sake. The military dictators have finally, taken the right of life from the citizens of Paksitan, not to mention their constitution and right to self govern. These puppets, theses foreign agents, these security risks for Paksitan have imposed 15% GST on medicines. Do you know how expensive the medicines are in Paksitan. Do you have any idea what 15% GST translates into? It is shame that in this day and age people are compelled to go to mail order homeopaths just to stay alive so that they could becaome the fuel in the engine of ``progress`` that these dictators are running? Do you know how much disease there is in Paksitan? When it rains people get sick, when it doesnt rain people get sick. people die of diseases that civilized world got rid of some 100 years ago. Where is the progress that theses thugs promised us before becoming merceneries and guns for hire? where are the rivers of milk and honey. It is a shame that these sons of bitchhes have taken Paksitan to stage where people are begging for right to live. Shame on you Musharaf. Shame on you dictator. Shame on you murderer. Laa`nat faujio laa`nat.

ylh, SameerJB, shankar, bina, and any other interested folk:

The Pakistani Power Structure and its grip on the Pakistani society (Part I):

The Pakistani power structure consists of four groups, in my opinion: 1)Feudals 2) Big business 3) Military 4) Beaurecracy (not in any particular order). Interestingly, I have not included the religious right in this group. Primarily, because, apart from street power, this group has no actual power, as shown by their current backpedling.

A deeper look into these four groups indicates that they excercise their power in different manners, depending on whether we look at them as a whole, or as a group of individuals.

As a group, their power is in the following order, from highest to lowest: 1)Military (primarily Army) 2) Beaurecracy 3) Feudal 4) Big business.

The military is hands down the most powerful institution in Pakistan. This is not due to a, ``high budget`` as many Pakistanis, with little understanding of the military, state incorrectly. Big business has far more money under its control than the military. It is due to the strong discipline and traditions (some good, some bad)that have been part of the military, i.e. it never refuses its commander`s orders. And due to the weak discipline and traditions of any military`s domestic arch-nemisis, i.e. the politician. The military can basically take over Pakistan, any time it wants. The common citizens of Pakistan rarely complain when the takeovers occur. This of course, does not justify the takeovers, in most cases.

Feudals and big business are not powerful as groups, because they do not fall into a well defined institution. They usually group themselves into business consortiums and political parties, in which their loyalties keep changing.

However, when we look at these four groups at the individual level, we find some interesting facts. At an individual level, their power is as follows: 1) feudal 2) businessman 3) beaurecrat 4) soldier.

Contrary to popular belief, the average military man, under the rank of General, has very little power in comparison to his equivalent feudal, businessman, beaurecrat, etc. This fact is well understood by all military men. All the power is concentrated in the General ranks.

There are rougly 100 Major Generals, 25 Lt. Generals, 17 Air Vice Marshalls, 4 Air Marshalls etc. in the military. In essence, this group of approximately 160 men excercises total control over the most powerful institution in the country (and in many cases control over the whole country). At their apex, sits the most powerful man in Pakistan, the Chief of Army Staff.

While the military man becomes powerful from Maj. General onwards, the beaurecrat is powerful at all ranks. Even a non-commissioned thanidar is more powerful than a Major. And Deputy Commissioners and SSPs do not even consider Brigadiers equivalent to themselves (even though the Brigadier is much senior than a DC or SSP). After the General ranks, the military man again becomes more powerful than the beaurecrat.

The big businessman individually does not hold any govt. or political power, but due to his wealth and contacts, he is more powerful than the equivalent beaurecrat and miltary man at the individual level.

The feudal is easily the most powerful at the individual level in Pakistan (please see previous replies on this subject). Twenty five year old feudal MNAs hold more power than fifty year old Generals, beaurecrats and businessmen. So while the military is the most powerful group/institution, individually the feudal is the most powerful person.

Out of the 215 or so seats in Pakistan`s National Assembly, approximately 135 or so regularly and historically go to the feudals. Each seat averages about 1.75 feudal candidates (some like Bhutto can be assumed to be elected uncontested). This means that approximately 230 or so feudal families dominate nearly 2/3rd of Pakistan`s political process.

I do not have exact data for the beaurecracy and big business. I assume the beuracrat General-level staff (federal joint secretaries, etc.) is equivalent to the military`s; so around 160 positions. And during Ayub`s days, it was mentioned that 23 business families dominate Pakistan. That figure could not have gone higher than 100, now.

Replacing the word, ``family`` with, ``position``, we come to the following conclusion: 160 + 230 + 160 + 100 = approximately 550 positions excercise complete control over Pakistan and 140 million Pakistanis.

This is where the fun starts:

A closer look at the inter-relationships between the people occupying these powerful positions, at the individual level, provides some interesting information. These groups are actually, in many cases part of one large family, not four separate families in four separate groups. They inter-marry and thus there are families that have one or more representative in each group.

A good example is Mr. Gohar Ayub`s family: Gohar Ayub is the son of Gen. Ayub (Pakistan`s ex-President and COAS). He is married to the daughter of General Habibullah Khattak (who was appointed by Ayub Khan as the Chairman Industrial commission of Pakistan; this created this family`s military + business nexus). Gohar Ayub himself is one of the most powerful members of PML party (a feudal party) from the Abottabad area (this completes the military + feudal + business nexus). Gohar`s brother was also elected member of the West Pakistan assembly. Gohar`s sister was married to the Wali of Swat (military + feudal nexus).

Gohar and his relatives are married into family(ies) which have candidates from PML, ANP, and even PPP (Pakistan`s other major feudal party); even though these parties fight elections against each other. Gohar`s neice is married to one of the most powerful MNAs in the ANP party, Haji Bilour (PML + ANP nexus; even though Gohar regularly competes against ANP). Gohar`s daughter is married to Dr. Iqbal Saifullah, who is the younger brother of the powerful PML MNA and businessman Salim Saifullah (feudal + business nexus). However Salim`s other brother Anwar Saifullah was the petroleum minister in Benazir`s PPP govt. (PML + ANP + PPP nexus; all opponent parties). Anwar Saifullah, who is/was wanted by NAB, is married to the daughter of Ghulam Ishaq Khan, Pakistan`s chief beaurecrat and ex-President (ANP + PPP + PML+ Business + Beaurecrat nexus). Gohar Ayub`s cousin is married to the younger brother of the powerful PML leader, Chaudhry Shujaat.

Interestingly, the Saifullahs are directly related to the Khattaks (Gohar`s in-laws), even without Gohar Ayub. General Ali Kuli Khattak was recently the other major contender for the COAS spot, competing with Musharraf. Gen Ali is the son of Gen Habib Khattak (the ex-head of industrial commission), thus making him Gohar Ayub`s brother in-law, and the Saifullah`s cousin and in-law (the ANP + PPP + PML + Army + Business + Beaucracy nexus is now fully completed).

Hence, it doesn`t matter who the hell is running Pakistan (or has been running Pakistan, i.e. Army, PPP, PML, ANP, beaurecracy, businessman) some of the members of this motley crew will always be in the top power positions. In the political area, they represent three of Pakistan`s most powerful parties (ANP, PPP, PML); parties that oppose each other in elections. Hence they are feudals. The represent the Ghulam Ishaqs, hence they are beaurecrats. They represent the Gens. Ayub, Habib, and Ali. Hence they have military power. And they are into big business, ever since Gen Habib was appointed head of industrial commission by Ayub Khan, and since the Saifullahs got into business. Hence they are big business.

In addition to this, these guys have their cousins, neices etc. who are members of NGOs, and female supporters of women`s rights, etc. Basically all the interfaces/formalities that Pakistan`s dominant powerful (mostly feudal) groups take part in, while their own constituencies remain backwards. (sidenote: I am sure they have their, ``enlightened`` contributor(s) on Chowk also).

Interestingly, this family has no one married into the religious right (as far as I know). This shows that the religious right really has no power, since it is not even worth marrying into, or making a career into.

What do I think of this family? Either all the talent of Pakistan is born into this family (and the rest of us have zero talent), or this family, and others like it, are too well connected and have the system beat from all directions. Apart from the fact that they are unnecessarily hogging all the power in Pakistan, Gohar Ayub is a moron of the highest order and Anwar Saifullah was let go by NAB under curious circumstances. However, General Ali Kuli Khattak had an honest upright soldier`s career, as did his younger brother (cousin?), who was my boss at one time, and one of Pakistan`s first F-16 pilots. Everyone else is somewhere in between.

But even if they are all angels, a country which allows power to be so centralized in single inter-related families is doomed. Only these families will be successful, everyone else will remain subjugated.

This family is just one example. There are many others like this. So people need to understand that in many, if not most, cases there is one nexus of all four powerful groups, inter-married, that controls Pakistan. This brings the group of positions controlling Pakistan, down from 550 to maybe 1/3rd or less of that figure (around 200 or so).

What needs to happen in Pakistan to sideline this 200 member inter-married power group nexus of families from ruling over all us normal Pakistanis. That will be in Part II.

Fuzair #237: Thanks for the reply.

Your stance and mine are 180 degrees opposite. All the points I have raised (except one, which I will get to) are based on what I have read in articles and books written by people like Margolis etc. They are experts in the area, and were in there with the Mujahideen. So I will default to them, on the geo-political reasons behind the Soviet invasion.

I cannot imagine the Soviets or anyone invading a country to such an extent, with so many resources, and putting the whole world against them (remember the Moscow Olympics), to just stabilize a bordering country. Look at everything they lost.

The Afghans did not fight as one joint unit, you are correct. But they fought in seven separate units with a joint goal. This itself is something that has rarely ever happened there, including now.

The Soviets logistics were extremely hampered. There is no way they could have launched an attack on Pakistan. They could barely launch an attack against many targets in Afghanistan. The only way they could have faced the 450k Pakistani Army was if they had zero logistical problems in Afghanistan. Otherwise, the Soviet soldiers would have been stuck in Pakistan, with no logistical lines to support them. They would have been sitting ducks.

Countries don`t just launch missiles at cities of a third country, while they are fighting a ground war in the second country. Can you name a few wars, battles, in which a country has just randomly started launching missiles at another country? This could have resulted in Pakistan fully getting involved in the Afghan war, by moving its own forces in. Why cause problems with Pakistan, when they had their hands full with Afghanistan? It would have turned into Soviet Union vs. the rest of the world (except India and Warsaw Pact).

India would have attacked Pakistan, had the Soviets made it to the border, and into Pakistan, with their logistical lines intact, i.e. full control over Afghanistan. India was not going to attack Pakistan before an outright Soviet invasion into Pakistan. You only attack a country across internationally recognized borders, when you know you will win (at least that is what the textbooks teach).

I have recently been studying the details of the Chinese relationship with Pakistan. China is the second most important country in the world now. Yet its Vice Premiers and Chiefs of Staffs regularly attend openings of harbors and small military bases etc. in Pakistan. Minor events for a potential superpower to send its highest dignataries to. Why are they so into Pakistan?

Pakistan is extremely critical to China. I did not realize this until I studied the details. I think if India ever attacks Pakistan, and it seems like Pakistan is going to lose, China will attack India. Primarily for China`s own defense. If China loses Pakistan, it is surrounded on all sides by India and NATO, and Russia. Pakistan is no doubt the most important country in China`s geo-strategic plans.

Now coming to the point that I do know about in detail, since I was there:

``There are still F-16s on two-minute alert (if I remember correctly) for Kahuta. The real threat was not from the Russians but from you-know-who.``

Pakistan pilots remain on alert at certain bases all the time, after duty hours. Two pilots sit in underground rooms watching movies, on two minutes notice, to take off to counter Indian border interventions, like you stated.

However, these are not active CAP standbys. Meaning that the planes don`t actually fly on the borders. The pilots just wait, and only go airborne if any attack is detected by the various radar stations on Pakistan`s eastern borders.

However, during the Soviet invasion days, it was the Wild West in the Air Force. Even twenty three year old pilots saw ten second pieces of action chasing after Soviet Su fighters. It was a mad house. The Soviet planes would come into Pakistan along the borders, Pakistani planes would chase after them, and the Soviet planes would return back. It was a regular (I believe daily, if I remember correctly) occurence. Some Pakistani planes actually caught up with the Soviet aircraft and shot them down. These are confirmed kills with prisoners of war. I have seen the recovered wreckages, which sit as squadron trophies. Imagine, how deep the Soviets must have come in to be caught by a plane taking off from a distant city.

The F-16 pilots flew more hours than they had ever done in their lives. They would fly over Kahuta and then be replaced by the next pair. It was near wartime coverage of Kahuta. This does not happen in peacetime, as far as I know. In peacetime, they just sit and wait on alert.

``maybe sending a couple of hundred Bears to carpet bomb Pindi and Islamabad.``

Its not that easy. They would have been shot down left and right. Such an attack would have changed the whole dynamics of the Soviet offensive. Its kind of like saying why don`t the Indians just lauch missiles at Pakistan, if they have their army parked at the border for so long. Things would go out of control

An all out attack like this would have definitely brought the USA and China physically into the war. And, even if they were successful in Afghanistan, the Soviets would never have invaded Pakistan outright. They would destabilize it internally first and then come in to, ``save`` Pakistan, on an, ``invatation`` from some Pakistani leadership.

35000 to 45000 deaths fighting against a ragtag group of villagers is a huge total. The Vietnamese and Indian armies were actual armies, in comparison to the Mujahideen. The Afghans were pure gurreilla warriors, with little or no heavy artillery, no airplanes, no armoured vehicles, few captured tanks fighting a country that was geogrphically adjacent (biggest difference between Afghanitan and Vietnam) to them. This was a much different scenario from the Indian-Pakistani wars and the US-Vietnam war.

I cannot imagine the Soviets risking so much just, ``out of fear of what would happen to the rest of their empire if they ever ``lost`` a country to the West.`` I think the Soviets went into Afghanistan to get to warm waters for the long list of reason Margolis mentions. They however wanted to get out sooner, when they realized it was a losing war, but the US wouldn`t allow them an easy retreat.

Pakistan had its hands full during those days. There are only times in my life when I thought that Pakistan was through: one was close to the last days of the previous NS govt. and the other was when Pakistan had to cater for simultaneously handling two of the three largest Armies in the world (Soviet and Indian). Luckily Pakistan survived both these situations. Since then, I have developed great faith in Pakistani resiliency.

P.S. I would be interested in your comments on the feudal debate going on this board.

Shammi

``And just this week, Russia has walked out of a lease with the Vietnamese over Cam Ranh Bay -- perhaps the finest deep water port in Indo-China, and a former USN base.``

Recall back then it was the USSR - a different entity than Russia, in ambition and capability

and demonstrated military resolve.

To say the USSR did not want Afghanistan is a partial truth, many officials in USSR did not want engagement in Afghanistan, but those who saw it as an imperative, won over those who did not.

Futile Experiments (by Gen. Musharraf)

http://jang.com.pk/thenews/mar2002-daily/29-03-2002/oped/o3.htm

Summary of the General`s `achievements`

roamir,

...... oh no, not the post office !

....please read dullabhatti`s post and then tell us who controls pakistan ........the feudals or the subedars ........ and it has always been the same - even during the ``civilian`` governments ..... everyone talks about zardari but nobody talks about the godfather of privatization - Lt Gen ...lets not name him .......

......these khaki termites won`t even leave the post office alone - for god`s sake have some shame ! .....

.... from the list it seems that the only thing that is left for the hapless civilians is the kabbadi associaiton ...... i assume the military police is running tibbi thana and begum corps commander is running the welfare trust for the syphillitic ladies of heera mandi ......

........ i remember my father complaining about disgracing the uniform because he had to try cattle thieves in summary court martials in 1958......things seem to have sunk to a new low since then .... the post office !

....... there is a thing called ``fatigue`` in the pak army .... it is a platoon of ten to twenty jawans (aka khugoos) dressed up in white sweat shirts, khaki shorts, and ordnance depot issued khaki sneakers ..... these gallant soldiers, commanded by a havaldar, trot out of the unit lines in the evening to go clean up the commandant`s house ( in lieu of soccer or hockey) ....... they spend a couple of hours pulling weeds and planting vegetables for a feudal lord who one day will command them in battle against the horrible hindoos ....... the serfs serve this benevolent feudal lord who in turn pays them from the treasury.......

Chowkies:

A must read: http://www.listservice.net/sindh-intl/mail/mail_abuseofhistory.htm

a small sample:

``many Pakistanis I talked to seemed disappointed. It was not just the disappointment that they were not as rich as they should be or that their children were finding it difficult to get jobs; it was a wider sense of betrayal, of having been cheated on a grant scale. The Army blamed the politicians, the politicians the Army; the businessmen blamed the civil servants, the civil servants the politicians; everybody blamed the landlords and the foreigners, and the left and the religious fundamentalists blamed everybody except the masses.

``More than anywhere I have been - much more than India - its people worry about the state of their country. They wonder what went wrong; they fear for the future. They condemn it; they pray for it. They are involved in the nation’s public life as passionately as in their small private dilemmas. . . ``

This gem was introduced to me by interlocutor ALPHANELL on the ``Great Illusion`` board - this is a fascinating read, on many levels.

re #247

May Tikka Khan rest in peace. A fine and decorated soldier, he was a prime example of what happens to military morale and morals when they become the bosses of civilians instead of their servants. Not as defense minister or as Punjab governor (he was BB`s), he will forever be remembered a the Butcher of Bengal.

Unholy political alliance to undermine referendum

Dont` say I didn`t tell you so - are you listening Aqil Shah? NO!, NO!, NO! - no taxes, we will live off aid, Above all No new faces, no new ideas in Pakistani Politics - : Why the Graduate obsctacle must fall! And the old politicians to lord over us again - seems temporal`s warning of Trotsky is falling on the deaf and dumb:

``Religious, liberal groups converge on single-point agenda

By Kamran Khan

KARACHI: As General Pervez Musharraf actively ponders the prospects of holding a referendum to seek a fresh five-year term as the president, even the key players in the pro-military government political groups are hesitant to offer the general a genuine political support in the referendum, background interviews with various political and government figures disclosed.

``The lip-service,`` replied a Pakistan Muslim League-QA leader, when asked by this correspondent: ``What can the PML-QA offer to help the president in his referendum?`` The PML leader who wished not to be named was an important figure in the PML group that had met President Musharraf on March 20.

The sons of the two former military rulers Field Marshal Ayub Khan and General Zia-ul-Haq -- both of whom had held referendums to earn continuity in power -- were among the politicians who had offered relatively contra-referendum views to General Musharraf last week.

PML-QA General-Secretary Gohar Ayub Khan hit the nail on the head on politicians` reservations on the idea of referendum, during the PML-QA meeting with the president last week, when he responded to General Musharraf`s disclosure that his government has decided to hold the referendum and the corps commanders have also approved the idea by arguing: ``I have been elected the speaker of the National Assembly, I have been the federal minister twice; at one time I was the deputy leader of the opposition in the assembly, but your government proposed to bar me from parliament because I am not a graduate.``

Gohar Ayub added: ``Lt-Gen Majid Malik is also here, while in service he was one step short of becoming the chief of army staff; he had been elected several times to the National Assembly, he was also a federal minister thrice, but your government thinks that he should not be allowed to contest assembly elections.``

While presenting himself and Gen Majid as the specific examples of the people, the military government now seeks to bar from politics in Pakistan by proposing that only graduates may be allowed to contest for parliament, the PML-QA secretary-general made the case for more than 90 per cent of the pro-President Musharraf PML leaders, who met the president for about a six-hour meeting that day.

While President Musharraf didn`t offer an elaborate reply to Gohar Ayub, but 24 hours later he pledged before Prof Tahirul Qadri`s Pakistan Awami Tehrik delegation that he was determined to bar non-graduates from parliament and his decision not to let Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif return to politics in Pakistan was final.

``In one go the president pitched himself against the politicians of all creeds and cultures,`` observed a PML leader. He added: ``The elections and referendum are three-fourths won by transporting and feeding the voters from their homes to the polling booth. Who will do this for President Musharraf on the referendum day?``

For most part of their meeting with the president last week pro-President Musharraf, according to the several participants, Muslim Leaguers interestingly focussed on the cons of the referendum by highlighting the credibility problem with the similar exercise in the past.

Interestingly the credibility question about the last referendum was raised during the meeting by none other than Ejazul Haq, whose father General Zia-ul-Haq had earned more than 98 per cent approval in the referendum he had held to get himself elected for another five years in 1984.

While the PML-QA leaders intend to do nothing to either encourage or discourage people from voting in the proposed referendum, definite clues are available to suggest that the Pakistan People`s Party and the PML-N are gearing to forge an anti-referendum alliance.

Several PPP leaders are not discounting the prospects of former prime minister Benazir Bhutto`s return to Pakistan to throw a strong political challenge to General Pervez Musharraf`s bid to rule the country for another five years. Benazir is currently holding serious consultations with her party leaders on the prospects of returning to Pakistan after four years of self-exile in Dubai.

Surprisingly, the liberal PPP and the most religious Jamaat-e-Islami and the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Islam, are likely to converge on anti-General Musharraf platform as both Qazi Hussain Ahmed, the JI chief, and Maulana Fazlur Rahman, the JUI chief, have already promised a stiff opposition to the government`s proposal to hold the referendum.

All leading religious political groups of the country have already formed an anti-government election alliance and its leaders now actively seek to test their popular strength through an anti-referendum mass movement.

In a separate move the Muttahida Qaumi Movement, largely considered as the third largest political party of Pakistan, is understood to have taken a principled decision to abstain from the proposed referendum. Muttahida sources said the party provided no assurances on the subject of referendum during their meeting with President Musharraf on Wednesday.

The Muttahida sources said the party would come out with an official position once an official announcement on the decision to hold referendum is made. ``Since we don`t foresee any role for us in the proposed referendum, our political preparations are only election focussed,`` says a senior Muttahida leader.

The Awami National Party (ANP) remained the only political party that was invited to meet the President to have plainly told the President that it would not support him for another five-year term through the referendum. ANP sources said in their meeting with President Musharraf, the ANP leaders cautioned him against the pitfalls of holding the referendum by giving the examples of former military rulers General Ayub Khan and General Zia-ul-Haq.

The ANP`s overt response against the proposed referendum came as a surprise to some political observers as this NWFP-based political party had widely supported the military government since General Musharraf assumed power in 1999.

Political observers feel that an anti-referendum mass campaign by the PPP, PML-N, ANP and an alliance of all religious political parties would represent a formidable political challenge to the Musharraf administration`s desire to hold a credible referendum.

Analysts feel that because of the current international focus on Pakistan, the government may not like to gamble an exercise that can`t win approval from the international monitors and the media. The international media has already started to cast doubts on the fairness of the proposed referendum.

``General Musharraf`s plan to try to legitimise his military rule with a referendum this year is unacceptable and should be discouraged by Washington. He needs to hold free and fair elections``, influential The New York Times penned editorially on March 25.

Some Pakistani newspapers and the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) have also said the referendum cannot replace elections and legitimacy earned through such a questionable exercise would not earn international credibility.``

ROmair`s inability to look at the situation objectively is an apt lesson into how a typical armyman`s mind works (or doesn`t work in this case). He`ll go blue in the face uttering the same bullshit that has been drilled into him by years of indoctrination but won`t use whats left of his grey matter. Everyone who disagrees with him is either a feudal or a `liberated` blood-sucking parasite. He alone is the true patriot.

His clones have ruled Pakistan for so long with virually no opposition and yet claim impotence in the face of the `feudal`. If the feudal is so hated why doesn`t the barrel of the gun behind which his comrade in arms sit put to use? The urban masses love a spectacle and gore goes down well with the palate of the villager. What does the army fear? The dirty truth is that the feudal and the army are two sides of the same coin. The feudal controls the votes and the army controls the gun. Its a symbiotic relationship designed to keep the riff-raff out. Look at the composition of any military tailored `civilian` government and who will you find? The same Junejos, Legharis, Jatois and Mazaris ROmair wants to rip the hearts out from. Who cobbled together the infamous IJI composed of the ultra-feudal and who is using the Chaudhry Shujaats and Amin Fahims of this world to create the next pliable majority? Uncomfortable questions with even more uncomfortable answers......

The Musharrafs and ROmairs of this world can do all they want to pin their shortcomings on any suitable scapegoat as Sameer points out but in the end whats the use if the nation they owe their allegiance to will be no more. All because a bunch of pea-brained khakis think they are the only ones that represent the collective consciousness of THEIR people.

later

-sac

P.S re arjun_m:

If you have to ask.....

Prem #236 Cordoba does indeed belong to all of us, as do other centers of positive achievement by man. Cordoba was destroyed (or more accurately, captured) in 1236 not by muslims who found it too secular (as you indicate), but by the christian army. While the walls were destroyed in the process of capture by the christians, the famed mosque was spared. Cordoba was the main center of learning in Europe during it`s day. You might find this quote from the jewish virtual history website interesting: ``When the Christians seized the city in 1236 they were awed by the beauty of the mosque and decided to build a cathedral in the midst of its columns and arches...Cordoba plays a pivotal role in the history of Jewish life in the middle ages. In the tenth century it became the seat of Jewish learning, scholarship and culture...Its preeminence was undoubtedly the result of the grand achievements of one man, Hasdai Ibn Shaprut (915-970). A doctor, diplomat and scholar, Hasdai served the courts of Caliph Abd al-Rahman III and his successor Hakam II...``

Found this article in ``outlookindia.com``.

Real eye opener.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20020401&fname=Muslims+%28F%29&sid=1

Enormous harm done to Islam by Osama.

Read on.