We, The Muslim Americans

sigalph miaN,

the jews at the time of Musa alayhisalam who followed him were BELIEVERS and the Muslims of that time and we TOTALLY SUPPORT THEM. At that time the Bani Israil WERE the chosen of Allah BUT as the Qur`an informs us they became cursed later on and when they refused to acknowledge Isa alayhisalam and then Sayyidina Rasul Allah alayhisalatu wa sallam. So now the Muslims are Chosen and on the basis of OUR holy book we claim the land of Palestine as it was taken by Hazrat Umar and he declared it a waqf till qayaamat and no one can take it away from the Muslims who are now its rightful heirs being the true followers of the Prophets unlike the yehud who as Allah tells us in the Qur`an killed the prophets sent to them.

In short, if they want to base their claim on the torah we can base ours on the Qur`an. And historically, even though it is not a racial issue but a religious one, parabs lived their even before Hazrat Ibrahim alayhisalam came whereas the yehuud are the sons of Yacub alayhisalam and their descendents.

Re: Romair

``..What is even more interesting is that I become the target for each group taking out their own frustrations, against the other...``

Could this be unique to societies that have historically had poor civil-military relations. In most countries (where the above is not true), there is no such discord. I can cite the example of India, where the civilians generally respect the military, and the few military buddies that I have are reluctant to be drawn into conversations on politics at parties, etc. Besides, the tiny military population/civil population ratio in India ensures that the mindshare of military matters in civil minds remains low.

Hamidm and Tahmed321 on Madani.

I have to admit that there is a rustic appeal to Madani`s posts. I quite enjoy his earthy style. `Billi is not Sher, both eat meat OK` is an eloquent rebuttal to Marx. Thanks, Mr. Madani.

www.democracynow.org

Story: ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER ARIEL SHARON DECLARES WAR ON THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES AS ISRAELI FORCES ATTACK PALESTINIAN LEADER YASSER ARAFAT`S HEADQUARTERS, ROUND UP HUNDREDS IN THE REFUGEE CAMPS, RAID HOSPITALS, AND SHOOT INTERNATIONAL JOURNALISTS: A CONVERSATION WITH DOCTORS AND PEACE ACTIVISTS WHO ARE BRAVING THE FIRE

Israel is continuing its invasion of the Occupied Territories.

In Ramallah, Israeli soldiers refused to let Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat leave his office for a fourth day. Middle East envoys from the United Nations, the United States, the European Union and Russia were apparently blocked from seeing Arafat.

But some 40 international peace activists were able to breach the siege yesterday. Waving white flags, they walked right past the tanks and stunned soldiers and entered Arafat`s compound. Several reporters were with the group, and a CNN reporter broadcast the group`s action and an interview with the Palestinian leader. The Israeli government responded by declaring Ramallah ``a closed military zone`` and banning reporters from the entire city.

Meanwhile, tens of thousands of people are taking to the streets in protest of Israel`s invasion of the Occupied Territories.

In Jordan, there is a general strike today, and thousands of people are holding protests. Riot police at Jordan University fired on a thousand students with tear gas, water cannon and batons when they stormed the campus gates and tried to take their protest to the streets of the capital. More than 100 journalists gathered outside the offices of Al Arab Al Yawm newspaper, burned Israeli and US flags, and torched a picture portraying US President George W. Bush as a Nazi general. The opposition Muslim Brotherhood urged Jordanians to boycott US goods in protest at Washington`s support for the Israeli military campaign against the Palestinians. The Brotherhood also called on the Jordanian government to scrap its 1994 peace treaty with Israel. More than half of Jordan`s 5 million residents are of Palestinian origin.

In Alexandria, Egypt, 10,000 people gathered in support of the Palestinians. In Cairo, hundreds of people tried to march on the Israeli Embassy. They broke through a line of riot police before being hit with tear gas and water canon. Thousands more demonstrated in other Egyptian cities.

In Lebanon, hundreds of people held protests in Palestinian refugee camps. Some 200 Palestinian doctors and nurses held a sit-in today near the US embassy northeast of the Lebanese capital, in protest at Israeli army fire on their colleagues in the occupied territories. The protestors were doctors and nurses from all 12 Palestinian refugee camps housing. In the last month, Israeli soldiers have shot and killed five Palestinian medical workers.

Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh is refusing all contact with the outside world, to protest Arab silence in the face of Israeli massacres of Palestinians. Yemen, along with Libya, has demanded that the Arab League convene an extraordinary summit on the Israeli army`s offensive in the Palestinian territories.

On the diplomatic front, the foreign ministers of China and Japan, and Morocco`s King Mohammed called either Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, or Foreign Minister Shimon Peres, to voice concern. France, Germany, Turkey and Arab states also urged restraint.

The Speaker of Greece`s parliament on Sunday accused Israel of committing ``genocide``.

Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates all made diplomatic appeals, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia contacted the US to voice his concerns.

At the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) meeting in Kuala Lumpur, ministers asked the Security Council, the United States, Russia and the EU to stop Israel`s ``aggression`` and ensure its withdrawal from all occupied Arab land.

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad told the meeting that Israeli troops and Palestinian suicide bombers alike were terrorists. He said, ``The holocaust did not defeat the Jews. A second holocaust with Arabs for victims will not defeat the Arabs either.``

The United Nations called for Israel to withdraw its troops from Ramallah and other West Bank cities.

Pope John Paul appealed for peace on Easter Sunday. But President Bush again condemned the latest Palestinian suicide bombings over the weekend and said Palestinian president Yasser Arafat could do more to stop such attacks.

And in a televised speech to the nation, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon promised an ``uncompromising war to uproot these savages`` and branded Arafat ``an enemy of Israel.``

Sharon`s speech came after another suicide bomber killed 15 people in an Arab-owned restaurant in Haifa.

Tape:

Breaking Report From Beit Jala - Israeli Forces Shoot At International Activists And Reporters: Manola, Italian independent reporter. From New York Pacifica Station WBAI with host Bernard White, moments before Democracy Now! went on the air.

Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon, speech 03/31.

Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, comments 03/31.

Guests:

Adam Shapiro, Jewish-American activist with the International Solidarity Movement, who made it into Yasser Arafat`s compound this weekend. He is one of a group of internationals who have traveled to Palestine to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people.

Dr Wail Hammoudh, doctor at the Arab Care Hospital, Ramullah, raided by Israeli soldiers yesterday.

Kristen Schurr, activist with the International Solidarity Movement, at the Al Azzeh/Beit Jabrir refugee camp.

Mustafa Barghouti, President of the Palestinian Medical Relief Committee.

Related links:

International Solidarity Movement

International Solidarity Movement to Free Palestine

The Palestinian Center for Rapprochement

Middle East Children`s Alliance

Jerusalem Independent Media Center

Alternative Information Center

Electronic Intifada

Story: WHAT WE DON`T HEAR FROM THE U.S. MEDIA: AN INTERVIEW WITH INVESTIGATVE REPORTER GREG PALAST

Guest:

Greg Palast, investigative reporter who writes for the BBC, the British Guardian and the British Observer.

samina

heard the show..lovely..juuuuust lovely

tahmedsaab:

``You are hereby given honorary citizenship of Pakistan. You can even contest Musharaff on the forthcoming referendum for the president, as far as I am concerned. nasah, incidentally, is from India, not pakistan. Not that it matters, and I hereby make him honorary citizen too, what the heck.``

tahmedsaab, pls give chunkey panda citizenship also..pleasepleaseplease..pretty please..with a whole can of cherries on top?..mae bilkul aap kee baeti jaisee hoon, please baat maan lain..:-D

The funniest article that I have read in ages. Today`s 4/2 Jang editorial page by Javed Chaudry titled ``some more bloody people``

http://www.jang-group.com/jang/index.html

Shammi:

There is a generational linguistic split in my family. My grandmother`s generation generally spoke only Urdu, although I had heard my grandmother`s sisters (but never ever my grandmother--she was a Lodhi Pathan and DID NOT speak Punjabi) speak Punjabi among themselves and to others. One of the younger ones would almost invariably start in Urdu and switch to Punjabi halfway through (when she got angry, it was straight Punjabi). My father, his siblings and cousins usually spoke Urdu among themselves and Punjabi as/when needed. My father grew up (after Partition) mainly in Sargodha so spoke Punjabi outside the house there. His younger siblings were more likely to speak Punjabi with other ``native`` Punjabi speakers but rarely among themselves.

Until the mid-1970s, most educated (Pakistani) Punjabis preferred to speak Urdu rather than Punjabi. My baRi phuppo once told me, jokingly I think ;-), something to the effect of ``You learn to speak English to be a ruler, Urdu to be a poet, and Punjabi to be a servant.`` My mother is from Sindh so of course did not speak Punjabi and we spoke English/Urdu (Urdglish?) at home. My sisters who were educated in Lahore and Pindi can speak Punjabi while my brother and I can try to fake it (he more successfully than I since he went to school in Lahore).

This is probably more than you wanted to know!



Sigalph:

The Jewish Biblical claim to Palestine is among the most ridiculous justifications I`ve ever heard. Since humanity evolved out of Africa, why weren`t the Boers entitled to return to the southern part of it? Or the English to Kenya?

I know about Hama and the Syrian government`s levelling of it after the Muslim Brotherhood took it over. I`ve never excused any Muslim government`s actions simply because it was Muslim. If you look at my earlier post, I think I said specifically that just because the Israeli track record is far better than the Syrians or the Iraqis (or just about any other Muslim government`s, your`s included, for that matter), does this excuse their treatment of the Palestinians?

As far as the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is concerned, I suggest you read about Deir Yassein and a few other such incidents in the Israeli independence ``struggle.`` Some Arab leaders may have called for the Palestinians to flee their homes but the Israelis were certainly urging them out at the point of a bayonet. For more recent examples of ethnic cleansing, what do you call the bulldozing of Arab villages and the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank? Lebensraum isn`t it? You are always prattling on about the intellectual dishonesty of the Left (which I agree with you on but that`s another issue), why don`t you try some intellectual honesty here?

As for what you and Shammi have said about the Palestinians ability to always back the wrong horse, never miss an opportunity, etc, etc, so what? I`ve never denied the mistakes made by the Palestinians but does the stupidity/unwillingness to compromise/intolerance/etc of the victim make the criminal`s actions justified? So a man taking a short-cut through a dark alley deserves to be beaten up and mugged? If he refuses to quietly hand over his wallet to the mugger he deserves to get shot and killed? Of course it was ``stupid`` of him to resist, to not quietly hand over the wallet, but the one responsible for the murder is NOT the victim but the perpetrator. Half a loaf of bread (or a third in this case) is cerainly better than none but you should be able to understand why the person whose bread was stolen from him in the first place is not exactly overjoyed at the thief`s offering to return a stale piece of crust or two. And you gentlemen wish to berate the victim for refusing to joyfully accept the thief`s more than generous offer? I love your logic and justifications in blaming the Palestinians for the current mess.

Israel`s ``right to exist`` is predicated on the ``fact`` that the past suffering of the Jews is justification enough for the present suffering of the Palestinians. If you`ve read through any of my earlier posts on other boards, you will know that I am no pan-islamist or arabophile or pinko-leftie sympathizer but lets be honest here. The Palestinians are the victims here; of history, the Israelis, their own leadership and other Arab governments. Shall we stop blaming the victim for a change?

shankar #362: ``The McArthur/Truman feud was a classic example.``

Truman applied to West Point but did not get selected due to a medical problem. He then went on to become a corporal in the Missouri National Guard, and then a Captain. From 1905-1919, he served as an Artillery officer, fighting in WWI. He joined the Army reserves from that point onwards, and rose to the rank of Colonel.

Needless to say, Truman himself was a military man, for a great portion of his life, and completely during his formative years.

The debate of military vs. civilian is as old as time. One of the reasons I like to indulge in this debate is to see the reaction of people who have never been in the military. The other reason is to see the reaction of people who have never been in the civilian world, as adults.

Most of the interactors on Chowk belong to the first category. When I go to Pakistan, I make it a point to sit down with my old military buddies and get their views on the civilian world.

There are a few things I have seen in common in both groups: both have very little, if any, understanding of the other group. Both are extremely biased, to the point of being prejudiced, against the other group. And both consider the other group inferior, as a whole, to themselves.

What is even more interesting is that I become the target for each group taking out their own frustrations, against the other. The civilians consider me an, ``ignorant`` military person, while the military people consider me an, ``opportunistic`` civilian.

I have long ago concluded, correctly in my opinion, that this behavior is more a result of either group`s extreme biases, rather than my belonging to any one of these particular groups. So much so, that neither group is willing to accept that I have been a part of both groups, and perhaps have a better insight into the other group, as compared to someone who has only been in one group.

The more I have experienced this, the more I am begining to appreciate the opportunity to have broadened my horizons by seeing the internals of both the military and the private enterprise world, at a relatively young age. Exposure is definitely the best way to gain knowledge, and to remove one`s own biases and prejudices.

The above is true not only for Pakistan, but for any country, including India. I am convinced one can only understand another group by living with them. One can only understand the society of a piece land, by living on that land. Second hand information can never replace the actual experience.

The fact that Truman was able to work with and handle McCarthur had a lot to do with the fact that Truman had seen both sides of the picture. He had been in the military and had been a civilian. This, to me, does not prove his power of thinking out of the box due to his being a civilian at that particular moment of time, nor does it prove McCarthur`s thinking inside a box. Both men were far too brilliant to be confined to any boxes (people who think inside boxes can neither become Chiefs of Staff/Supreme Allied Commanders nor Presidents in the US).

It just goes to prove that a person with exposure to both boxes will, more often than not, have a much better understanding of his surroundings, than he would have had, had he just been exposed to one box. Just like a person who has lived with both Indians and Pakistanis will have a much better understanding of the faults and virtues of both, as well as the corresponding conflicts, than someone who has hardly met anyone from across the border. Or a person who has studied both science and art will have a much better understanding of where they differ and where they are the same.

Due to circumstances, I think I can check mark the first two categories. Now if I can figure out how to hold a brush, maybe I will realize that art is much satisfying than science, despite the lower salaries.

So I will give you the same suggestion I give all my friends at the Aviation Mess, when they call me, ``A money loving, unpatriotic businessmen, who doesn`t have it in him to lay down his life for his country, anymore:``

Come writers and critics....who prophesize with your pen,

And keep your eyes wide.....The chance won`t come again

And don`t speak too soon....For the wheel`s still in spin

And don`t criticize......what you can`t understand.......... (Bob Dylan)

Janab hazrat Asif Naqshbundi Saheb:

Pleas, please -- hum logoN per rahm khaaiye -- Saima Shah per rahm khaaiye -- Chowk ki HARD DISK per rahm khaaiye.

aap apne etney lumbaaaaaaaaay tabligheeee posts ko -- ya to mukhtasar kijiye -- ya issey kaheeN aur lay jaayie.

muslan -- Sunni.org huaa -- Jihadi.ed huaa -- Junnat ka Ticketmaster.com hua.

Aap zahidoN meiN jaa bhaitheN -- in gunhagaaroN ki Chowk per keya karrahe haiN.

aap keoN apna qeemteee wuqt -- or ham beykaroN ka susta wuqt -- zayah kur rahe haiN.

baqaul Ali saheb -- agar maiN walliullah hotaa -- to -- ba khdoa -- aapko in posts ke beghair hee --junnut mein ek plot -- aur char -- houreiN dilwa detaa.

magar afssos sud afsos -- mein abhi -- apprenticeship hee kur raha hooN.

naa cheese

“as far as I am concerned. nasah, incidentally, is from India, not pakistan. Not that it matters, and I hereby make him honorary citizen too, what the heck””(tahmed)

Tahmed miaN:

Aapki ki zarra nawazi ka bahut bahut shukriya – it will indeed be an honor. Aap waqaee bahut hi acchey Pakistani haiN.

YooN to -- meiN bhi East Pakistani naheeN hooN -- mugger diqqut yeh hai ke -- in 70’s -- maiN bhi Mukti Bahini ka APOLOGIST thaa -- iss se to koi hurj naheeN?

regards

sac #381: You are back. After yourelf suggesting that no furthur interaction between you and I should occur. But you seemed to have changed your mind. Kindly keep in mind that I did not mention your name, nor do I have any interest in interacting with you. But you did initiate the discussion, once again. So I will have to point out the inconsistencies in your reply again:

``Military training can be the most debilitating illness known to man.``

I have found my military training has proven to be a great asset in my career in Silicon Valley. Most software engrs. don`t get introduced to management till later in their careers, and they have poor decision making skills. I was introduced to all of this as a teenager.

I would like to ask you whether you have had any military training? If not, then how can you be so sure, whether it can be an illness, or an asset?

Let me give you the long list of poeple who have had military training in their careers:

1) Nearly all the members of the British Royal family go out of their way to get military training 2) George Bush Jr. (Lieutenant) 3) George Bush Sr. (Lieutenant) 4) Jimmy Carter (Lieutenant) 5) Eisenhower (General) 6) Nixon (Lientenant Commander) 7) George Washington (General) 8) Mahatma Gandhi (Sargent) 9) Ronald Regan (Captain) 10) Gerald Ford (Lieutenant Commander) 11) Lyndon B. Johnson (Lientenant Commander) 12) John Kennedy (Lientenant) 13) Truman (Colonel) 14) Abraham Lincoln (Captain).....

I could go on and on, but I would run out of space. And I haven`t even gotten to leaders outside the US and Britain.

Let`s take a look at the last election`s leading US presidential candidates:

1) George Bush Jr: Fighter pilot in the national guard 2) Al Gore: Sargeant in Vietnam 3)John McCain: Lt. Cmdr, war hero

Once again, I could on and on. But perhaps your analysis is correct, i.e. ``Military training...makes good soldiers but terrible negotiators and politicians.`` Apparently all the past US presidents didn`t spend any time in negotiating or carrying out political tasks. Perhaps they hired you to do that for them.

Clinton is the only President out of the last God knows how many US presidents who wasn`t either a Lt. Cmdr, a Captain or Lientenant, or a Sargeant. One has to go all the way back to Roosevelt to find a US President who wasn`t trained in the military. (US presidential candidates go out of their way to highlight their military careers in their campaigns. Clinton`s draft dodging was a big negative for him).

So everyone US citizen in the last century is stupid, because they keep voting for people who had military training, as their Presidents. And sac is the genius amongst all of us. He has it all figured out.

The `intelligence` test at least in Pakistani military is interpreted so that the highest scorers are actually not recruited. The ISSB recruitment for military officers uses the same principle but in more subtle ways``

What else can one do but point out inconsistencies in people`s replies, when they talk about something with which I have been associated, and they have not. I don`t mean to rub it in, but I know how the ISSB works and what it looks for. I have been through it, and have evaluated their tests also. The ISSB is desparately trying to find the best candidates they can, specifically for the Army (where their has been a drought of good candidates, in the recent decades).

In my opinion, the best possible training is to be in the military for a little while, and then go on into the private enterprise arena. A path followed by 11 out of the last 12 US Presidents, as well as by nearly everyone in the British Royal family, and by so many other people, including many business leaders. And a path whihc I have adopted, as well.

It gives a person a good well-rounded experience of different areas, different aspects of looking at situations, discipline etc.

In every single job I have applied for, my military training (however short it may have been) was considered a positive.

Apparently you seem obsessed, along with some other people, on the fact that I was in the military. And are unwilling to look at the fact that I have spent the last ten years of my life in the US IT industry. Aren`t you the one, who has lost the ability, ``to see both sides of the picture?``

ahmed madani #377 i am stupid expak and always learning from inpak brother madani. brother madani say landlord ok, factory owner ok, military man ok, and poor man not ok but stupid and lazy and making baby baby always. i am too much learning new things from brother madani.

If one does a search on Feudalism and Pakistan on any Internet search engine, one gets some interesting results:

A whole bunch of articles pointing out identically the evils of feudalism in Pakistan. Within these, one finds a couple of articles justifying feudalism, or pointing out that it doesn`t really exist in the form that everyone says it does. Interestingly, the authors of these articles are nearly always Pakistani, and they are nearly always (if not always) feudals or their close relatives, and they are always very well off financially.

If the above doesn`t explain the effect of feudalism on Pakistan, then I am not sure what will. It is sad to see intelligent young Pakistani beneficiaries of feudalism defend this medieval concept that is sucking the life out of the young rural boys and girls of Pakistan. It is even more sad to see them defend it with such eloquence. This in a nutshell in the tragedy of Pakistan. The interface people present to the society doesn`t match their morals. Pakistan would be a much better place if such people denounced this evil practice of feudalism, and then presented their very enlightening views on human and women`s rights. Until then, they are part of the problem and can never be part of the solution.

While any article on the Internet will say this, I am picking one out randomly, just to highlight the effects of feudalism furthur:

``PAKISTAN: Feudalism: root cause of Pakistan’s malaise

by Sharif M Shuja

Printed in Issue:25 March 2000

Sharif M Shuja is an Adjunct Assistant Professor of International Relations at Bond University, Queensland. Professor Sharif Shuja explains the background to Pakistan’s continuing economic and political uncertainty......

Feudal mentality ;

Throughout history, feudalism has appeared in different forms. The feudal prototype in Pakistan consists of landlords with large joint families possessing hundreds or even thousands of acres of land. They seldom make any direct contribution to agricultural production. Instead, all work is done by peasants or tenants who live at subsistence level.

The landlord, by virtue of his ownership and control of such vast amounts of land and human resources, is powerful enough to influence the distribution of water, fertilisers, tractor permits and agricultural credit and, consequently exercises considerable influence over the revenue, police and judicial administration of the area. The landlord is, thus, lord and master. Such absolute power can easily corrupt, and it is no wonder that the feudal system there is humanly degrading.

The system, which some critics say is parasitical at its very root, induces a state of mind which may be called the feudal mentality. This can be defined as an attitude of selfishness and arrogance on the part of the landlords. It is all attitude nurtured by excessive wealth and power, while honesty, justice, love of learning and respect for the law have all but disappeared. Having such a mentality, when members of feudal families obtain responsible positions in civil service, business, industry and politics, their influence is multiplied in all directions. Indeed the worsening moral, social, economic and political crisis facing this country can be attributed mainly to the powerful feudal influences operating there.

Almost half of Pakistan`s Gross National Product and the bulk of its export earnings are derived primarily from the agricultural sector controlled by a few thousand feudal families. Armed with a monopoly of economic power, they easily pre-empted political power.

To begin with, the Pakistan Muslim League, the party laying Pakistan`s foundation 53 years ago, was almost wholly dominated by feudal lords such as the Zamindars, Jagirdars, Nawabs, Nawabzadas and Sardars, the sole exception being the Jinnahs. Pakistan`s major political parties are feudal-oriented, and more than two-thirds of the National Assembly (Lower House) is composed of this class. Besides, most of the key executive posts in the provinces are held by them.

Through the 50s and the 60s the feudal families retained control over national affairs through the bureaucracy and the armed forces. Later on in 1972, they assumed direct power and retained it until the military regained power recently. Thus, any political observer can see that this oligarchy, albeit led by and composed of different men at different times, has been in power since Pakistan`s inception.....

Political effects;

The influence of feudalism has been most predominant in the political sphere. As stated earlier, Pakistan`s administrative and political agencies are almost totally controlled at the higher echelons by feudal lords. Just as the salt in Pakistan`s soil has retarded the growth of crops and vegetables, the feudal influence in the country`s political soil has hindered the growth of democracy.

The relationship between the feudal mentality and the authoritarian tendency in Pakistan`s political life is not difficult to perceive. Where feudal lords occupy positions as political executives, they tend to consider the country as their property and the citizens as their subjects.

Authoritarianism is thus entrained in the feudal personality and is as essential to the feudal system as oxygen is to human life. Freedom of thought and intellect, and freedom of speech and expression, invariably lead to the exposure of social inequities and injustices, mobilise public opinion and generate movements for establishing an egalitarian order.

Therefore, the first target of any feudal regime is the suppression of the press and academic institutions so as to give the regime the freedom to control, influence and manipulate to their own ends. A feudal regime, ultimately, may be conceived of as a regime of intellectual tyranny.

The political power of the feudal class is derived from their economic power, while their political power enables them to consolidate and expand their economic power. This combination has given them control over national affairs and enabled them to thwart democracy in maintaining their hegemony.

Reflecting on all this, one could be sympathetic to General Pervez Musharraf`s claim of Nawaz Sheriff`s Government being corrupt, since the majority of National Assembly members belong to the feudal class. One of the greatest factors that caused Nawaz Sharif`s downfall was his mismanagement of statecraft. His Government was accused of authoritarian rule, hypocrisy, massive bribery and administrative failure.......

(http://www.newsweekly.com.au/articles/2000mar25_pfrcopm.html)

shankar #367: Thanks for the psychoanalysis.

There are a few points which I am afraid don`t fit however. You have used them as your premise. So you will have to re-analyse:

1) Firstly, if I had sex with Monica Lewinsky, I would admit it. Hence your premise doesn`t hold. I wouldn`t put any spin on it, I would admit it outright.

2) I agree that on many issues Indians and Pakistanis disagree with me. Perhaps this is a sign that I put my views out their in an unbiased manner, and perhaps that I sit in the moderate middle of the debate on religion vs. secularism, India vs. Pakistan etc. Hence I get it from both sides. In my opinion, that gives me a lot more credibility than getting it just from one side, which is what happens to 90% of the people on this site.

I always back my points with quotes from experts. On Indo-Pak issues, I quote international experts. Now if someone believes all those international experts are brainwashed, then what can I do? (Eric Margolis: an athiest American working in Canda, spends two days out of his 55 year old life on Siachen, and is brainwashed for the rest of his life. Now there is a theory that everyone should believe. Pakistanis have made great advances in brainwashing technology. Did it ever occur to you that he may be presenting the facts, like he sees them).

3) I have never cliamed to be an expert on anything. However, I do have a low level of tolerance for BS, when others claim expertise, without having any facts to back up their arguments.

I have myself stated I am not an expert on military matters. I am stating in here again. It is impossible to be an expert on such affairs in ten years. However, I am an expert in comparsion with people who have zero years of experience.

The only field in which I claim to have some level of expertise in software consulting. Infact, I am dumbfounded over why people attempt to associate me with the military, and not with business.

It is unfortunately everyone else who keeps hoisting military titles on me (I would be much happier if someone hoisted IT titles on me). I cannot do much about that. Nor can I do much about someone considering me a know it all. That is, frankly speaking, their problem.

I present my facts, they present theirs, and let the chips fall where they may, is my philosophy.

There is one point that I do make deliberately. That is to only get involved in discussions on subjects in which I have experience. You will never see my trying to critique poetry on this site. When I discuss the internals of India, I first claim that I have never lived there, hence my analysis could be off.

Interestingly, you will never see me trying to get into debates with psychiatrists about how the human mind works. Even with psychiatrists who have only spent ten years in the field. Because, I know I don`t know anything about psychiatry. Yet, there are so many psychiatrists in this world, who are bent upon debating military strategy with people who spent ten years in the military. When the psychiatrists realize they have no knowledge of the area, they accuse the other person of being a know it all, or of spin doctoring. In my opinion, the other person is not spin doctoring, nor is he claiming to know everything, it is just the psychiatrists not accepting his lack of knowledge.

Anyone who starts any argument with, ``I know I am not an expert, but,`` should have the common sense to stop at the, ``but.`` However, people will go ahead and expose their lack of knowledge anyways to the rest of the world, then accuse the world of being brainwashed.

The trick is to know the extent of one`s knowledge and not get into areas where one exposes one`s ignorance. People who understand this, will not lose too many debates or arguments. Others will get frustrated with them, but others will not be able to counter their arguments with facts.

P.S. Have you ever wondered why I never debate Freud or Depression or Bombay or Michigan with you? Even if I did discuss it with you, it would be more in the sense of me learning, than me debating. Now if you are bent upon discussing Karachi, and Clausewitz and San Jose and military Air Strikes with me, then you need to come armed with facts. If you don`t have the facts, then well, the only thing you will be able to do is to accuse the other person of not playing by the rules. Which is what you are currently doing.

I always wondered why doctors in any military are never allowed to command troops, and lead people into war. Now I know :)

Re: Urstruly

``...mostly because this comparison is utter nonsense...``

Care to elaborate? Or am I supposed to accept your utterances at face value?

``...solution must include the return of all Palestinians to the lands from where they have been ethnically cleansed...``

This is about as practical as returning all refugees (who wish to return) from India/Pakistan/Bangladesh back to their original homes. If you want Palestinians to be able to return, surely you must be willing to accept a reversal of the population exchange (especially those who were expelled against their wills). Heck, I want my great-grandfather`s 200 acre farm in Jhelum back before I will go about pleading the case of the return of Samir Othman Hato to his olive tree orchard in Beit Jela. The 15 million who crossed the border in `47 in India must have grown to about 70 million today. Good luck.