We, The Muslim Americans

Re: # 301
The Soviets did invade the airspace of Pakistan hundreds of times as I stated. Their equipment was ancient. At best, they could have deployed Mig-25s (they had yet to make the breakthroughs that would result in Mig-29 and Su-30). The Mig-25 for all practical purposes, is a sitting duck in front of F-16s. I talked to the pilots who engaged Soviet aircraft, and they said it was way too easy to take them out.

Ans:
Crazy fellow....
USSR had failed to control Afghanisthan, so Pakistan was spared (the way Iran is spared at the cost of turmoil in Iraq)...Mig29 are alsway more powerful than equivalent F-16s. At 1990s USSR had failed to invest on defence technology, so is lagging now...

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/la-000042372jun16.story?null

June 16, 2002 Talk about it E-mail story Print



THE WORLD

Al Qaeda Gathering Strength in Pakistan

Asia: Operatives are hiding in cities, with support from local extremists. The nation is the terrorists` new hub, U.S. officials say.







By BOB DROGIN, JOSH MEYER and ERIC LICHTBLAU, TIMES STAFF WRITERS

WASHINGTON -- Hundreds of Al Qaeda terrorist operatives are hiding in Pakistan`s cities after forming or renewing alliances with local Muslim extremist networks that have helped provide safe houses for communications, training and logistics, U.S. officials say.

The result, they fear, is that America`s closest ally in Central Asia has in effect replaced Afghanistan as a command-and-control center for at least some of the battered remnants of Osama bin Laden`s terrorist army.

``They don`t operate with impunity there like they did in Afghanistan,`` a U.S. intelligence official said. ``But they have lots of supporters, and it`s easy for them to blend in.`` A Justice Department official agreed, saying Al Qaeda members appear to have gone ``wherever they want`` in Pakistan`s teeming cities.

``They`re hiding in plain sight,`` he said.

Brian Jenkins, a terrorism expert at the Rand Corp. think tank in Santa Monica, says Bin Laden might have viewed Pakistan as part of a ``business continuity plan to ensure survival of leadership, financing, communications and so on`` in case Al Qaeda lost its sanctuary in Afghanistan.

Authorities say that Al Qaeda has made similar efforts to regroup by merging with local Muslim extremist groups in Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia. These makeshift alliances are more decentralized than the network long directed by Bin Laden, officials say, and thus might be more difficult for outsiders to penetrate.

Since last fall, the United States and its allies say they have foiled more than a dozen terrorist plots around the world and arrested more than 2,400 suspects in nearly 90 countries.

But more than half of Al Qaeda`s known leaders remain at large, including several linked to the Sept. 11 assaults and other major attacks. Officials are especially eager to catch Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, an Al Qaeda operative linked to almost every attack against the United States since the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993.

U.S. intelligence analysts still believe that Bin Laden and his top aides have found refuge somewhere along Pakistan`s long and lawless border with Afghanistan. Broad pockets of local sympathizers are said to exist in the semiautonomous tribal areas of Baluchistan and North-West Frontier Province.

But U.S. and Pakistani officials now estimate that hundreds more Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who fled the war in Afghanistan have disappeared into Pakistan. Many are thought to have linked up with like-minded local groups opposed to secular Muslim regimes and to the Western powers that support them.

*

Backers Mount Attacks

Al Qaeda supporters appear to have been responsible for at least two suicide attacks on Westerners in Pakistani cities this year, U.S. officials say. Al Qaeda leaders and followers have been arrested or tracked in nearly every major Pakistani city, including Karachi in the south, Lahore and Faisalabad in the east, Peshawar in the west, and Rawalpindi and Islamabad, the capital, in the north.

In some cases, U.S. officials say, Pakistani militants and even some members of the government`s Inter-Services Intelligence agency, known as the ISI, have openly supported Al Qaeda and have used an informal underground railroad to help fleeing terrorists.

``The ISI is filled with extremists, and I don`t think they`re trying very hard to find these people,`` said a recently retired U.S. counter-terrorism official who is familiar with the manhunt. ``In fact, they`re actively trying to hide them.``

Another U.S. official downplayed ISI`s role, citing recent intelligence reports. But ``that doesn`t rule out the possibility that there are still links between rogue elements of ISI and Al Qaeda,`` he said.

Al Qaeda`s presence in Pakistan poses a growing danger and dilemma for both Washington and Islamabad.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld, who visited Pakistan last week, and other U.S. officials have offered strong public support for President Pervez Musharraf`s military regime, which has provided airstrips, bases, fuel, intelligence and other critical help to U.S. forces.

Privately, however, many U.S. officials are increasingly voicing concerns that Musharraf`s crackdown on local terrorist groups this year has largely failed. Several banned groups have morphed or spawned virulent offshoots that have launched several attacks against Westerners this year. Authorities haven`t solved Friday`s car bombing outside the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, which killed at least 11 Pakistanis and wounded dozens more. A previously unknown group has claimed responsibility, but U.S. officials said the FBI is investigating whether Al Qaeda might be linked to the attack.

U.S. intelligence officials now suspect that groups linked to Al Qaeda were responsible for a May 8 bus bombing in Karachi that killed 11 French engineers and a March 17 grenade attack in Islamabad that killed four Protestant International Church congregants, including a U.S. Embassy employee and her daughter.

The arrest last month of an American-born alleged Al Qaeda operative, Jose Padilla, after he flew to Chicago on what authorities called a scouting mission for a possible radioactive bomb attack, suggested just how widespread Al Qaeda may have become.

U.S. officials say that Padilla, who used the Muslim name Abdullah al Muhajir, studied bomb-making early this year at an Al Qaeda safe house in Lahore, met with senior Al Qaeda officials in March at another safe house in Karachi and traveled elsewhere in the country. Pakistani police arrested Padilla`s alleged accomplice in Rawalpindi.

Although Padilla`s role was not known at the time, U.S. and Pakistani officials raided the Lahore safe house where he had stayed as well as suspected Al Qaeda compounds in several other cities March 28. Abu Zubeida, Al Qaeda`s operations chief, and several of his senior aides were captured after a shootout that night at a house in Faisalabad.

US. authorities say Abu Zubeida approved Padilla`s proposed ``dirty bomb`` plot at a meeting in December in Afghanistan and later traveled with him in Pakistan. Abu Zubeida, U.S. officials say, had been responsible for rebuilding the Al Qaeda network inside Pakistan before his capture.

A senior intelligence official said Al Qaeda ``already had a presence`` in Pakistan ``so they don`t require other groups`` for operations.

``They have always had loose alliances with fellow travelers with similar goals and motives,`` this official added. ``The memberships are very loose. People go back and forth from one group to the other.``

*

Group`s Reach Spreads

Arrests elsewhere also point to the terrorist group`s spread. Saudi Arabia acknowledged Saturday that three men arrested in Morocco on suspicion of planning attacks on U.S. and British ships in the Strait of Gibraltar are Saudi citizens. Morocco said they claim to be Al Qaeda operatives. The attacks would have been similar to the suicide bombing of the U.S. destroyer Cole in Yemen--an operation also linked to Al Qaeda.

As for Pakistan, the State Department, in its annual report on global terrorism issued last month, said Islamabad had ``rendered unprecedented levels of cooperation to support the war on terrorism.`` The report noted that Islamabad broke ties with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan after Sept. 11, froze hundreds of thousands of dollars in suspected terrorist assets and moved to bring radical Muslim schools that served as ``breeding grounds for terrorists`` into the mainstream educational system.

Musharraf`s government also outlawed several terrorist groups and detained more than 2,000 domestic ``extremists,`` the report said. But most have now been released and might be active again.

Questions remain, the State Department warned, about whether ``Musharraf`s `get tough` policy with local militants and his stated pledge to oppose terrorism anywhere will be fully implemented and sustained.``

Part of the problem is Pakistan`s history of covert support and overt tolerance for Muslim extremist groups, starting with the Taliban.

Peter Tomsen, U.S. special envoy for Afghanistan from 1989 to 1992, said the ISI provided the ``weapons, resources and intelligence`` to the Taliban as the Islamic movement rose to power, and then was ``intimately involved`` as the Talibs forged ties with Al Qaeda.

On its other border, Pakistan provided similar support for years to Muslim zealots fighting to oust India from the disputed territory of Kashmir. Terrorist attacks against civilians in Kashmir and in India brought the two nuclear armed rivals to the brink of war in recent weeks, but the crisis eased after Musharraf moved to stop Pakistani militants from crossing into the Indian-held portion of Kashmir.

Until recently, however, little attention was paid to other Pakistani terrorist groups that share Bin Laden`s doctrinaire view of Islam and his hatred of the West. Many attended Al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan, or received arms and other support from Bin Laden, even if they didn`t formally join Al Qaeda. The contacts apparently paid off after Sept. 11.

A Pakistani official said his government estimates that at least several hundred Al Qaeda fighters slipped into Pakistan`s 10 tribal territories--mostly in the so-called Pushtun Belt that runs from Quetta to north of Peshawar--last winter. But they were exposed to U.S. satellites and other forces in the open desert, he said, and the cities seemed far safer.

Many had money to buy vehicles, supplies and guides from local warlords, this official said. And many, he said, reached out to a broad underground network of Bin Laden sympathizers and ``fellow travelers,`` mostly urban Pakistani militants.

``The network is there. You have religious groups that were sanctioned for years that no one was shutting down and are operating freely,`` the Pakistani official said. ``They are providing them with sanctuary.... It is an ongoing problem. We are cracking down on them, but they are still out there.``

Two Pakistani groups in particular--Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed--have long espoused the jihad cause against non-Muslims. They now appear to have provided haven or other assistance to Al Qaeda terrorists, the official said.

Authorities say Lashkar-e-Taiba was affiliated with the safe house in Faisalabad where Abu Zubeida and his top aides were arrested. And Jaish-e-Mohammed was linked to the January kidnapping and, later, beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in Karachi.

The State Department labeled both groups as foreign terrorist organizations in December, empowering Washington to freeze any of the groups` assets in the United States and to urge other nations to block their funds.

*

`Very Worrisome` Trend

A former Clinton administration counter-terrorism official said Pakistan`s increasing tangle of terrorist groups and their spinoffs is ``very worrisome.``

``The general turmoil has made it much more attractive for all jihadists in the region to go after American targets,`` he said. The long-range danger is that local Muslim militants backed by Al Qaeda could destabilize Pakistan, overthrow the government and set a dangerous new course for the nation.

``It is entirely within the realms of possibility that Pakistan could end up with an Islamic leadership that is a lot less sympathetic to the United States,`` he said.

Tashbih Sayyed, the Pakistani-born editor of Pakistan Today, published in Southern California, said the war in Afghanistan only ``destroyed an outpost`` of terrorism. ``The main infrastructure remained intact,`` he said. And Pakistan, he warned, ``is kind of a meeting place now for all the radical forces in the world.``

The Indian subcontinent politics in the past revolved around religions, cast and British influences. The Gujarat, Ayodhya, and other communal riots in the country are always going to be related to Kashmir, Muslim Personal Laws and Pakistan support to the separatist movements such as Khalisthan and Kashmir. The people should read and understand the religions and their core philosophies. Free thinker movement is necessary for the survival of India`s hindu-muslim-sikh-isai. Let us educate ourselves by reading the different religious dogmas. I did`t know anything about Islam and christianity until I

statrted reading Quran, Bible, hindu mythologies and other religious views on the internet. Please visit, read and understand the problems that religons create on the internet.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

If the western countries does`t educate their citizens, the influence of religions such as Islam ,hinduism and chrisanity, they will go in the same path way that is taken by the indian subcontinent

re banjaara

Actually my ancestry goes back directly to the martyred Nawab Siraj himself; Mir Jafar was his uncle, so not in my line of progeny. I know who my father, grandfather, and great-great-great grandfather etc are. Your language and insinuation leads me to believe that you`re, however, of rather unsure ancestry.

sigalph # 495

``when your president or prime minister calls you to defend the motherland against external threats, the only honorable answer is: Yes Sir/Yes Ma`am.``

This is rich,coming from the great great great great great grandson of Mir Jaffar.

sigalph

I can try again if you want.

But seriously, when i hit the send button, the IE screen appeared with an error message. I backed up and tried again. Same thing. I gave up and later that day i retyped the reply. Somehow they all have showed up. It was not because I thought you were as stupid as Bush and needed to be told multiple times. Honest!

re anNy 503

Thank you for clearing that up-soya`s three-time answer wasn`t clear enough:)

Must you hurt my feelings by always saying horrid things about my President, Commander-in-Chief, Mard-e-Momin, and khalifa?

``Pray tell what are you?``

he is a doll :)...to answer your question, definitely not someone who would bulldoze another on account of his own self possessing more might and definitely not a man who would continue condoning what are obvious atrocities and most defintely not a chappie who would throw the whole world into a turmoil..soya will not go down into history as one of the stupidest, most havoc wrecking, ugly looking, world war starting men..the elected (!) and most important (by fox ratings) man in the world presently will...

#497

``That `idiot` is the elected leader of history`s most important nation-state.``

Yeah, that`s what makes him so dangerous.

(elected? most important? teehee)

``Pray tell what are you?``

Certainly not dangerous.

#497

``That `idiot` is the elected leader of history`s most important nation-state.``

That`s why he`s so dangerous. (I won`t quibble about `elected` & `most important` now. Maybe later.)

``Pray tell what are you?``

Cerainly not dangerous.

#497

``That `idiot` is the elected leader of history`s most important nation-state.``

That`s why he`s so dangerous. (I won`t quibble about `elected` & `most important` now. Maybe later.)

``Pray tell what are you?``

Cerainly not dangerous.

re anNy 498

Aap ka kalaam sar aankhon par magar iltija yeh hay ke is nuktay par ghaur kijeye:

``If the legitimately elected government....``

That key phrase, my friend, abolishes any and all comparison with the War of Independence of 1971.

Thanks for the upgrade, but I was only a lecturer for a couple of years. That, if anything, made me realize even more so that you cannot negotiate with those who are ultimately bent on eliminating you as A MATTER OF ENUNCIATED PRINCIPLE (I call your attention to the PLO Charter).

To paraphrase the Great Mughal, Ba khuda hum Filisteeniyon ya insaaniyat ke dushman nahin magar apne usoolon ke ghulam hain.

Now that I have butchered Urdu thoroughly, you can pardon me:)

sigalph

``But seriously, I am in a lot of way rather conservative. If the legitimately elected government of any of my countries asked me to serve, I`d do it in a heartbeat. In controversial situations the choice would be very difficult but yet simple: when your president or prime minister calls you to defend the motherland against external threats, the only honorable answer is: Yes Sir/Yes Ma`am.``

no sir...thats being plain stupid and im surprised a person like yourself who`s entire ppl suffered at the hands of our idiots in the pakistanis army who held the same position would say this...what happened in east pakistan was WRONG..mukhti bhangi, indian interfearance- all at one side...killing innocent civilians was WRONG and it will remain long and a big blot on the face of our army for always...(did i tell you i had a full blast phadda with one smartass bengali regarding this?) similarly, the israeli reservists position is one that needs to be supported..theyre opting for humanity over patriotism..actually if uve read over the stuff i posted, theyre opting for patriotism and dont believe the oppression and humiliation of a whole ppl is patriotism...i wish we had had some ppl in the pakistani army (we did actually but the scantiest numbers) who had started such a movement and some bloodshed could have been prevented ...nothing takes precedence over insaaniat my friend...you said someplace u were a professor someplace.maybe youve become really hi fi and knowledgable and have forgotten to be a little idealistic..please dont be like that...killing innocent ppl who have nothing to do with the war is not something that can be justified- using patriotism to justify is just plain sad..saying its the honourable answer to say yessir when duty calls is crazy my friend..what have we been given brains and a heart for?

excuse me please if my tone was rude or insolent

soya dear, shammisaab:

thanks for your posts...the past and present political situation in the middle east im trying to understand these days..its pretty messed up and kinda confusing also but what i dont understand is how anything can make it alright to kill civilians- israeli or palestinian..the fear these guys live with must be mind blowing..not being able to go for coffee or bowling for fear of suicide bombers (israelis) or to school for fear of snipers (palestinians) just plain suckks..arafat and sharon will both burn in hell, i can gaurauntee that much..little, ugly men

re soysauce 491

``Seems like even the idiot in the white house realizes that it cannot go on like this forever; ...``

That `idiot` is the elected leader of history`s most important nation-state. Pray tell what are you?

Soysauce:

I believe that dismantling of the settlements and withdrawal from Gaza/W. Bank was on the table. 97% of the land in the Occupied territories was offerred to the Palestinians.

re anNy 474

Thank you for the kind words about Bengalis/Bangladeshis. Heck, with your incisive writing another Bengali may have a crush on you too:)

But seriously, I am in a lot of way rather conservative. If the legitimately elected government of any of my countries asked me to serve, I`d do it in a heartbeat. In controversial situations the choice would be very difficult but yet simple: when your president or prime minister calls you to defend the motherland against external threats, the only honorable answer is: Yes Sir/Yes Ma`am.

I feel the heartache and the genuine moral dilemma of the Israeli reservists, but I cannot condone such behavior.

#493 shammi

Sorry, i don`t see how this relates to withdrawal of the IDF from the occupied territories. Regardless of whatever transpired, the IDF would have remained to protect the settlements that israel claims are in ``disputed territory.`` Had israel agreed to the dismantling of the settlements, then, yes, Arafat should have grabbed the chance with both hands. Nothing i have read suggests that israel would agree to turn over all of west bank and gaza to the PA.

BTW, i`ve been israel and driven by Ramallah. Separating the palestinian and israeli areas would be like separating new delhi and old delhi. They are all right next to each other.

Re: soysauce

Kindly read:

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/summit/campdavid2000.htm

Please pay special attention to the phrase, `The final status issues that were being negotiated - Jerusalem, security, borders and refugees...`

#490 Shammi

We don`t know exactly what was offered in camp david because nothing was written down. It was all speculation. What is beyond doubt is that even as Barak was talking peace, construction of settlements was picking up pace. If you also look at the map on the BBC site, the palestinian state would be cut up by israel (occupied territories to be precise) such that the state would not be contiguous.

#476 anNy

Thanks for the read. Christian Science Monitor & Haa`retz also write about people on either side who are sick of all the violence and desire an honorable settlement. Carrying on historic and tribal grudges, as the israeli and palestinian establishments do, does neither people any good. I have israeli friends, who probably have been called to ``serve``, who are very liberal and are grateful to Rabin for trying to break the cycle of violence but feel powerless nonetheless. It`s like the americans who think Bush is drunk on power and feel frustrated that he has NO positive agenda. Democracy is wicked that way - it lulls you into thinking that you count for something but then you lose out in the numbers game.

Compared to the last intifada when the ordinary palestinians were relatively docile, this time around the palestinians are more militant and are battle-hardened. (Similar thing has happened in kashmir also) It would be in israel`s best interest to adopt a pragamtic policy. Sharon is giddy with military might, has no long-term strategy for peace and is driven by tribal emotions. Likewise with Arafat although Arafat has no military power to speak of.

The palestinians should be content with a contiguous state for now. When peace and prosperity are achieved, the refugees can return wherever they`d be welcome. Seems like even the idiot in the white house realizes that it cannot go on like this forever; that raw military power will not guarantee long-term stability when a whole generation starts to despise you.

AnNy:

Thanks for the interview transcript. The interview with the conscientious objector in the IDF clearly indicated that he is against the presence of the IDF in the W. Bank/Gaza. This is precisely what Barak offerred in 2000 that Arafat refused. Instead, Arafat launched the Intifada. So, what is the point -- that Israeli occupation of W. Bank is wrong? We know that -- the formula has been `land for peace`. Barak was willing to give it up. But, if Israel gives it up under current circumstances, it will be only a matter of time before there is a reason to re-occupy it (just as in `67).

Shammi

Keynesian or any other solution is dependent on the nature of the problem and the time frame and resources available to solve it. I`m not calling for a command economy but rather for a National Service, in the form a literacy corps seems to me, is a need of our time, in Pakistan.

The allocation of resources towards solving problems as a methodology is obvious. I think you are making an error in thinking that the areas identified for State action will remain static or will dominate or even reduce the sphere of the private economy; I have something of the sort in mind, National Service would develop and direct manpower towards those national imperatives most amenable to the remedy of National service. You are employing a particular and inferring a general that does not apply.

Whether volunteer or compulsory, for a given, specific period.

Should citizenship we earned? Should all citizens be vested in this way? Does Liberty not require that we act vigorously to sustain and promote it? I think, to the degree that Pakistanis can help other Pakistanis to realize such ``rights`` as education, it is a good thing. A literacy corps as part of National Service can reach into every crevice and corner of Pakistan, to the remotest part, National Service can provide the manpower to upgrade communications (roads, bridges, rail tracks, ports, harbors, etc.,) Reforestation projects, building of and manpower for environmental conservation projects, such as National Parks Service -

Such an enterprise can be the most integrative force in society, it also enables the implantation and growth of the notion of social mobility.

Were Pakistan to be a society in which there was a shortage of manpower or that the two years of service would take needed workers out of the economy, causing havoc, certainly we could refine or revisit the efficacy of the entire idea of National Service - but the reality in Pakistan is that we have a surplus of manpower - it is also true that we have a shortage of skilled manpower, especially those with industrial skills. Every year the ranks of the unemployed and the underemployed swells; social and political consequences attendant. National Service, which provides basic training and vocational training, followed by field service is a win-win for Pakistan and Pakistani citizens.

Re: Stuka`s post addressed to me

Hey! Why the gratuitous insult? The line you quoted was from Shammi`s post anyway, not mine. I would say that all the smart people (i.e., Muslims) left and the ones left behind are rising to their level of competence. I assume, from some of your posts, that your family/father was in the Army. Is your family also by any chance from Jhajjar?

My father`s family joined either the police or the army (manly the army) so its interesting to hear that now they mainly join the Air Force. A cousin of mine in the army is the fifth generation of his family to loyally serve the Raj (white or brown). A few years back we--father, me, cousins/uncles who were visiting--sat down and counted the number of relatives (up to nth cousins) who were faujis and stopped counting at something like 40+ when it was time to go for dinner. The VCOAS of the Pakistan Army, no relation to us, also hails not that far from Jhajjar--Gen. Yusuf is a Ranghar.

shankar #447: Your remarks are quite accurate. I have seen all of this from the inside. This is true all over the world. But true, more so, in Pakistan. Primarily due to the Martial Laws, as well as due to the failiure of the elected govts., as well.

It turns into a question of placing the blame. Civilians blame the military govts., and proclaim that if civilian govts. were allowed to go through election after election, things would have been alright.

Military leaders state that things were so bad towards the end of all civilian govts. that had they allowed to continue, Pakistan would have been bankrupt.

On the whole, it is a question of letting out individual frustrations, and not blaming one`s own kind.

Where do I stand, after having been bombarded from both sides. You must have seen the quick reaction on Chowk for people, including yourself, to consider me a representative of the military, even though I haven`t touched a G-3 rifle for ten years now; I get the same reaction, in the other direction from my military colleagues. This is an indication of the biases and prejudices in these two groups:

I think Pakistani leadership has been pathetic; both military and civilian. So both need to be blamed, rather than blaming the other and protecting one`s own.

However, I would divide the Pakistani society as a whole into various vertical groups: 1) the leadership (feudal families, generals, big business, politicians etc.): this is the group I wrote the detailed reply on covering the families. 2) the upper middle class/middle class critics (this is most of the people on chowk, expatriate Pakistanis, those in the military who come from well to do families down to those professionals who do not come from well to do families, the shopkeepers etc.). I would put myself into this group. This group doesn`t have power to run the country, but is independent enough economically to criticize) 3) common citizen of Pakistan (mostly uneducated, does not speak English, cannot read of write, peasants etc.; this group is only concerned about making a day to day living)

The problem of Pakistan is group no. 1. As I explained in my, ``powerful families`` post, it doesn`t really matter whether the PPP, ANP, PML, Army, beaurecracy is running the country, it is nearly always in the control of the, ``families.`` So blaming any party or the Army as a separate entity is immaterial. If the PML is so concerned about the Army, why the hell did it appoint Zia-ul-Haq and Ayub Khan`s son`s as SVPs in its party. If the PPP is so concerned, then why does it accept relatives of members from the PML in horse-trading, etc.

It is just a family business, everyone on top is connected, or quickly marries into connections. So the Army vs. civilian ruler debate is useless. What is more important is the family vs. non family debate.

Musharraf belongs to the non-family group, and has not made any move to enter into the family group. Does it really matter whether he is from the Army or from the clergy or from Delhi, for that matter? What is more important is that he is not from the, ``powerful families,`` and hopefully is willing to break their hold on power. Unfortunately, all previous CMLA Generals who had this power (and were from the non-family group also) have not broken this grip and have actually joined the families group vigorously, as if there was no tomorrow.

Group no. 2 is really frustrated, somewhat naive, and is unsure of what they want. Various factions of this group keep arguing over whose representatives in the no. 1 (family group) are more pious. Quite a useless debate, if you ask me. The actual attempt should be to wipe out the whole no. 1 group, as an entity. Which is what I presented in my solutions to breaking powerful families reply.

Group no. 3 couldn`t give a damn if Pakistan was under Martial Law or a democracy or under Hindu rule. For some reason, members of Group 2 keep suggesting that group 3 (50% of Pakistan) actually is dying for a right to vote. I don`t know why they think that, but it is not true. Group 3 just has one concern, and that is to put some food on their plate. That is why they happily migrate to UAE, and give up their rights to voting, anytime the opportunity comes up. Whomever can bring the most economic progress to them is the person they want running the country. The could care less if he were elected, non-elected, a king, a referendumly elected, a General, or a janitor.

So when someone criticizes the military, one cannot do so as one entity. I am the biggest critic of the military men belonging to group 1, since I know their faults and virtues personally. However, I am a huge defender of military men in the second group (colonels and below) and those in the third group (jawans, etc.). Putting the whole military, or the whole civilian world, in one bucket is a very prejudiced way of looking at things, in my opinion.

All:

this is a digression. It is a pow-wow between me and Ustruly. Others, skip to the next post.

Urstruly,

Having observed the vicarious pleasure that you derive from obtaining an understanding of Hindu mythology, I have material here that should continue to give you oodles of pleasure for some time to come. Apparently, the tradition of human sacrifices for Mother Goddess Shakti are being revived in Assam! It was a practice thought to have died out completely, but in the wonder that is India, a revival of the `Nara Bali` practice has been uncovered. `Unfortunately` they use effigies, not real humans. The link is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1908000/1908706.stm

Hopefully, you will find enough material and links to more juicy material.

RE: Reply #: 456 Romair

Your treatise on Indian defense spending was enlightening. However, let me as you a couple of simple questions:

1) How come Pakistan has been under military rule for well over half it`s existence? Do Pakistani military rulers think that the danger from India is so grave that they have to imprison their own citizens?

2) How come Pakistani ministers are running around world capitals with either a begging bowl or requests to have their debt forgiven but can still find $3 billion plus to arm themselves against one ``hostile`` neighbor?

3) How come even the head of the local flower arrangement society in Pakistan is a sitting General?

4) How come Pakistani leaders talk so much about righteousness but expediently wriggle out of solemn agreements like the Shimla accord?

Enquiring minds want to know.

I could go on, but ...

Re: Hobbyty

``...These two years, after basic training and technical vocational training be spent in a field of endeavor identified by THE STATE? ...``

Are you a Keynesian economist? The Soviet Union, East Germany, North Korea, Cuba have all tried allocation of resources based upon a bureaucrat`s decision. Guess what, it was a total failure.

Re: Stuka

``...At least as far as Pakistanis are concerned, they should be grateful to the Army coz that`s the only reason your country has survived...``

Now that is a debate in itself.

Anyone who looks at the utterly dysfunctional British royal family as a role model is beyond help.

later

-sac

Reply #: 409 Asif Naqshbandi

[the jews at the time of Musa alayhisalam who followed him were BELIEVERS and the Muslims of that time and we TOTALLY SUPPORT THEM. At that time the Bani Israil WERE the chosen of Allah BUT as the Qur`an informs us they became cursed later on]

Interesting observation. The betrayal of Moosa by his followers is clearly spelt out in Al-Baqra #49-101.

While it is true the hebrew followers of Moosa were the chosen people of the time therefore the miracles of Exodus to lead them from persecution, however Qura`an clearly denounces them for their betrayal of Moosa by taking to worshipping a stone calf [when he went off to pray for forty nights], instead of the mono-diety of Moosa which he had preached. Therefore, the first part of your observation regarding support of Muslims for the original Hebrews seems questionable. I quote below the directly relevant extracts from Al-Baqra (Yousuf Ali).

``49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh`s people within your very sight.

51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.

53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

54. And remember Moses said to his people: ``O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker.`` Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.

55. And remember ye said: ``O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly,`` but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.

56. Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.

57. And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: ``Eat of the good things We have provided for you:`` (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.

58. And remember We said: ``Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good.``

59. But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

60. And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said: ``Strike the rock with thy staff.`` Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.

61. And remember ye said: ``O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions.`` He said: ``Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!`` They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.``

Rgds

Reply #: 409 Asif Naqshbandi

[the jews at the time of Musa alayhisalam who followed him were BELIEVERS and the Muslims of that time and we TOTALLY SUPPORT THEM. At that time the Bani Israil WERE the chosen of Allah BUT as the Qur`an informs us they became cursed later on]

Interesting observation. The betrayal of Moosa by his followers is clearly spelt out in Al-Baqra #49-101.

While it is true the hebrew followers of Moosa were the chosen people of the time therefore the miracles of Exodus to lead them from persecution, however Qura`an clearly denounces them for their betrayal of Moosa by taking to worshipping a stone calf [when he went off to pray for forty nights], instead of the mono-diety of Moosa which he had preached. Therefore, the first part of your observation regarding support of present day Muslims for the original Hebrews seems questionable. I quote below the directly relevant extracts from Al-Baqra (Yousuf Ali).

``49. And remember, We delivered you from the people of Pharaoh: They set you hard tasks and punishments, slaughtered your sons and let your women-folk live; therein was a tremendous trial from your Lord.

50. And remember We divided the sea for you and saved you and drowned Pharaoh`s people within your very sight.

51. And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong.

52. Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful.

53. And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.

54. And remember Moses said to his people: ``O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker.`` Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft- Returning, Most Merciful.

55. And remember ye said: ``O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly,`` but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on.

56. Then We raised you up after your death: Ye had the chance to be grateful.

57. And We gave you the shade of clouds and sent down to you Manna and quails, saying: ``Eat of the good things We have provided for you:`` (But they rebelled); to us they did no harm, but they harmed their own souls.

58. And remember We said: ``Enter this town, and eat of the plenty therein as ye wish; but enter the gate with humility, in posture and in words, and We shall forgive you your faults and increase (the portion of) those who do good.``

59. But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.

60. And remember Moses prayed for water for his people; We said: ``Strike the rock with thy staff.`` Then gushed forth therefrom twelve springs. Each group knew its own place for water. So eat and drink of the sustenance provided by Allah, and do no evil nor mischief on the (face of the) earth.

61. And remember ye said: ``O Moses! we cannot endure one kind of food (always); so beseech thy Lord for us to produce for us of what the earth groweth, -its pot-herbs, and cucumbers, Its garlic, lentils, and onions.`` He said: ``Will ye exchange the better for the worse? Go ye down to any town, and ye shall find what ye want!`` They were covered with humiliation and misery; they drew on themselves the wrath of Allah. This because they went on rejecting the Signs of Allah and slaying His Messengers without just cause. This because they rebelled and went on transgressing.``

Rgds

Re: Romair

``...They all display their military credentials loudly and proudly to their voters...``

I assume that you are talking about ex-soldiers in societies where civil authority is supreme, and where voters come to respect the uniformed personnel because they are seen to be doing their duties voluntarily and not overstepping their bounds of behavior. How does that change for countries whose military dictators travel overseas? How many of the latter are `proud` to be addressed as General rather than as President? and how many shed their military uniform in front of a foreign audience in favor of civilian clothes? and how many go through hoops to adopt a veneer of civil authority by anointing themselves with a civil (rather than just a military) title? How many make speeches on the floor of the UN in civvies rather than in military uniform? The answer to that, my friend, is the true measure of the `pride` that one feels of having donned the military uniform or having been in the military. That pride evaporates in the face of illegitmacy.

Upon reading Urstruly`s post titled `Stupidity and Arrogance` #463, I thought that if the Indian Army ever carried out a coup, the disrespect that it will earn will be EXACTLY similar to what Urstruly is exhibiting. I will be outraged, and feel like a powerless pawn. If I detested Indira Gandhi for her manipulative, dictatorial style, I would be outrightly pissed at some General (whose record I know nothing about) declaring himself the new badshah of India. It would be an insult to my intelligence to have someone lording over me with little ability for me to do anything to affect his agenda.

Re: Romair

``...but whether they (military people) turned into debilitatingly ill people or not...``

They do not, but they appear to do so when they take on responsibilities for which they have little training, aptitude and experience. Just as a brain surgeon will be utterly useless as a commanding officer, a commanding officer will be useless as a brain surgeon. Ditto for army officers assuming the mantle of politicians. All the examples of US politicians that you cite who have had previous military experience, did not gain that office through the barrel of a gun, but through a mechanism that every other office bearer has to follow.

Gen. Pace (serving Vice Chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff) was quoted yesterday as saying, `Just as I cannot be expected to play the political role of a US ambassdor overseas, an ambassador with no experience in commanding troops in battle can be expected to lead young men and women who have been given in trust by their parents`.

It was a crisp, to-the-point, straightforward, no-nonsense remark that clearly delineated the roles that each has to play. Gen. Pace know his place in subordination of civil authority very well.

Regards

Romair,

#457

I want to comment upon your observations re ``military`` vs ``civilian`` in Pakistan. You have made such references occassionally in the past as well.

I think its a sad state of affairs for a country where the civilans & military are in an adverserial relationship. After all, the PRIMARY role of ANY military is to protect the nation...ie the civilians, not just ``real estate``.

Seems to me the dominant discourse in the Pak military is that they are the most patriotic of all Pakistanis. The Pakistani civilians should be ``led`` & its beneath the military to take orders from civilians--because the latter is nothing but a bunch of undisciplined, corrupt & money hungry mofos.

Mushy imples that it is by divine right that he now has to lead the country out of the crisis. He absolutely believes that all patriotic Pakistanis have his full support.Its going to take him more than 3 years to set things right for Pakistan. The military has made the Pakistani civilians feel that they are not capable of running the country, without military ``supervision``. Any Pakistani who challenges that is not a ``patriotic`` Pakistani.

Thats the basis of a referendum. Thats when the goddess starts turning into a whore...no matter how great Mushy is. Human nature...if you dont respect me (whether you are right or wrong)...I wont respect you.

When the civilians start considering the military to be an adversary & not an ally, its all downhill for the country. Of course, the hypocritical US is not slamming the referendum. Wanna take a bet what the White House would have said if Mushy wanted a referendum BEFORE 9/11?!

Fortunately for India, the military has NEVER treated her civilians with such disrespect (except if you discount Kashmiris as Indian citizens). Even during Indira Gandhi`s Emergency, the military refused to get involved. I dont think there are Indian citizens (except Kashmiris) who express so much antipathy towards their military..as I see Pakistanis do (on Chowk, at least).

i apologize for all so much pasting but this stuff is really interesting

the reservists are answering frequently asked questions

http://www.seruv.org.il/FAQEng.asp

Question: In a democratic society, is it permissible for army reservists to refuse to serve in a location or carry out a function designated by the army?





Answer: The foremost duty of a citizen in a democracy is to ensure that it remain democratic. Majority rule is a central principle of democracy, but it is not the only one. There are some things that a democracy is prohibited from doing. (Everyone is in agreement about that; the question is, which things?) So it is one`s civic duty to refuse to perform undemocratic activities, even in the name of one`s country. In our opinion, the lengthy occupation (35 years, including the transfer of Jewish citizens into occupied territories)--and, in particular, the means we are forced to use in order to maintain the occupation--are so anti-democratic that they override the principle of majority rule. Thus, the very refusal to carry out such orders is a true democratic act. Our refusal is not undermining the nature of the State of Israel as a democratic nation. On the contrary--it is strengthening it. Moreover, democratic governments everywhere, including in Israel, are known for never doing ``the right thing`` until they are pressured to do so by public opinion. It is the duty of a democratic citizenry to apply such pressure. When members of a minority feel that the democratic regime is too oppressive, or is forcing them to obey laws which are contrary to their conscience, they sometimes reach the point where they are ready to pay the price for refusing to compromise their principles. Sometimes it turns out that this minority is, in fact, not a minority at all. Only when it rises up and succeeds in mustering support for its stand is it then strong enough to influence majority opinion. The strike waged by the handicapped is a case in point. Another example: The Kfar Sava Municipality decided to drastically raise property taxes. Property owners in Kfar Sava decided not to pay the extra amount, even though they were charged fines and other surcharges. In the end, the decision was overturned, property taxes were restored to their former level, and all the surcharges were annulled. We have always been the ``good guys`` who carry out their obligations without asking too many questions. But the rules of the game have to change, and the time for change is now.





Question: If the government were to decide to evacuate settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and soldiers who support such settlement refused to evacuate them, would you be as understanding?





Answer: A. Absolutely! Difficult as it may be, we will not force unwilling soldiers to evacuate settlements.





Question: What do you expect the army to do? To ask every soldier if he feels like serving in the occupied territories?





Answer: A. The army is considerate of the feelings of other sectors of the population. Ultra-orthodox Jews are not required to serve in the army. Special arrangements are made for outstanding athletes and musicians; only children; soldiers without family in Israel; soldiers from the lower socioeconomic strata of society, and many others. Gen. Uzi Dayan once said that the I.D.F. ``must allow discussion of the moral aspects of service in the territories.`` To date, there is no avenue for a soldier plagued by moral questions to find solutions to his problems. Quite the contrary. Conscientious objectors are subjected to humiliation and vindictive behavior, forced to choose between prison or consultation with a mental health officer. And the army, by refusing to deal with the issue, loses out on one more soldier who could have made an important contribution in another post. The army must come to realize that moral values have the same restrictive effect on a soldier`s actions as do medical or psychological disabilities. Why should we risk our lives, at the same time compromising our values? Our military and political leaders are obliged to explain to us what we are fighting for. What are our objectives? Who is the enemy? Is there really no other option? By evading political decisions the government is abandoning all of us to our fate. We need to have our faith restored, the faith that was lost long ago.





Question: We are at war. Don`t you think that it is criminal to refuse to serve in wartime?





Answer: When the country is fighting for its life, we all have to take part in the struggle. Today we are not fighting for the survival of the state. We are fighting to maintain our role as conqueror and occupier of the territories. Our feeling is that the mutual acts of terror are not inevitable; the situation can be changed. The decision is a political one, not a military one. Declaring a state of ``war`` in order to induce an atmosphere in which people feel they are obliged to serve, is the same as declaring an area to be a ``restricted military area`` in order to evacuate the civilian population, or declaring a ``state of emergency`` in order to crush a workers` strike. It is a cynical use of power by governments (the journalist, Ofer Shelach, called our government a ``military junta``) in order to squelch legitimate protest. During the twentieth century millions of soldiers went off to what today are considered to have been unnecessary wars. We have decided to say: No!





Question: What`s your problem? All you`re being asked to do is to protect Israeli citizens who work or travel in the territories. How is that any different from protecting citizens anywhere else? For example, why is that different from patrolling an airport overseas?





Answer: The best answer we can give is a quote from Gen. (res.) Effi Etam [today a leader of Israel`s militant right wing]. Etam wrote that civilians living in combat zones should know that they are likely to be hurt. He, of course, was referring to Palestinians living in Raffah, but his words are applicable to the Jewish settlers as well. These settlers are far from being innocent lambs. They refuse to allow the building of protective walls around their settlements, they refuse to bullet-proof their cars, and they refuse to adapt their way of life to the reality of living in a combat zone. They trick the army, setting up outposts behind its back and forcing it to split up its defense forces; they provoke conflict whenever things get quiet. They are not helping themselves--why do I have to help them?





Question: Your claims are political in nature. Political protest is legitimate, but the army stands outside of politics, doesn`t it?





Answer: I have two answers to this question. First of all, the army has been engaging in politics for long time. It is more political today than it`s ever been, and there`s no use in pretending to be neutral. Witness some of the comments made by the Chief of Staff, the head of the Intelligence Branch, etc. Not to mention the lies put out by the Army Spokesman that have raised serious doubts as to his credibility. Second, its true that until now you have asked questions with a political flavor to them. But my refusal to serve in the territories is primarily grounded in moral reasons. We know what kind of activities the soldiers--especially the reservists--are being required to carry out. It`s not about apprehending potential terrorists; it`s not about demolishing artillery positions that are shooting at Jewish settlements inside the Green Line. It`s not really necessary to recount the stories; you can read about them every day in the newspapers, including the Israeli press. You can see pictures on the foreign news stations, you can talk to soldiers who return home in shock from the checkposts. They are turning us into animals; they are giving free rein to the most sadistic elements among us. We are not prepared to be part of this. In all the accounts of the most vicious conflicts known to the twentieth century, people have always lauded those few who refused to take part in the atrocities and who offered their aid to the victims, whether openly or in secret. How many war movies have been made showing the ``good soldier`` who refuses to harm defenseless civilians? I feel that this is now our moment of truth, and every one of us has to decide if he is or is not a of the human race.





Question: That`s all well and good, but you should be there at the checkpost, making sure that these things don`t happen. What good does it do if you stay inside the Green Line?





Answer: A. That`s a nice suggestion, but it`s not practical. You have to be there in order to understand that one single soldier with a conscience cannot make an impact. The others will simply ignore him and do whatever they feel like doing. Not to mention the fact that the comman- ding officers usually back them up or turn a blind eye. True, I can lodge a complaint after the fact. But I`m not naive. I know what they do with my complaints. I`m also not trying to hide behind anything or be relieved of duty for psychiatric reasons. No, I am refusing to obey orders. I am refusing because I want my refusal to make waves, to arouse others to action, to create such an outcry that the foundations will shake--maybe then there will be an impact. Only numbers can make a difference, and when there is organized protest, there are numbers. That`s how we got out of Lebanon, for example. Our hope is that the next time some cabinet ministers discuss whether to demolish a neighborhood or drop bombs near a school, they will remember that the people who carry out their instructions have other values besides obeying orders, and that to continue this policy is to weaken the public backing of the army.





Question: Q. The Palestinians are trying to destroy us. They are slaughtering us in the streets and have vowed to annihilate us. There is no possibility of peace with such people. We have no choice but to fight.





Answer: A. It`s important to understand that our criticism of the way our army is behaving in no way implies support for the actions of the other side. We can`t allow their crimes to legitimize our foolishness. I feel responsible only for the actions of my country, and I can only protest against them, regardless of whether the other side is guilty or innocent. Furthermore, one mustn`t use the same moral criteria to compare the terrorist acts of the Hamas with the military acts of a sovereign state such as Israel. The I.D.F. is not a terrorist organization. The I.D.F. is not an underground movement struggling against its conquerors. The I.D.F. is not meant to carry out acts of vengeance but to implement pragmatic political policy. We are asking Arafat to risk civil war, without giving him any political rationale for doing so. Even Ben-Gurion didn`t disband the underground movements before he had a state in hand. The Palestinians` burning hatred towards us stems, in large part, from the very policies that we are protesting against. Extreme statements are being made daily by extremists on both sides. They must not be allowed to dictate policy while those who seek peace and choose life stand by and pay the terrible price.

Thanks to Rina Shelef for the excelent Translation.

fairdinkum,

I sincerely hope you are right & I am wrong. Otherwise there is no hope for India & Pakistan.

My ``Indian point of view`` is far from scientific. Its a gist of impressions I have developed over the past few months. In my ``cultural microcosm`` of Indians, that is the dominant discourse.

Personally, I`m extremely dissappointed by how megalomaniacal & prejudiced they have become. Its largely a result of what they percieve is the Pakistani guerella war in Kashmir--the pinnacle was the raid on the Indian parliament. I have never seen such anti-Pakistan fervor in India, when I was living there..until the late 70s.

I`ll be the happiest guy on earth if Indians & Pakistanis lose their prejudices & learn to get on with life.

The icing on the cake was a recent weekend visit to NJ to see my brother & sis-in-law. Their 8 mo old daughter is the cutest niece in the world (OK I`m prejudiced). Ordinarily, they are the most ``neutral`` Indians I`ve known, as far as Pakistan is concerned. My sis-in-law has several relatives living in Karachi.

They recently came back from a visit to India. Most of that weekend was spent in a heated debate about Indo-Pak politics, between mois & the 2 of them. I could believe that even they were turning anti-Pakistan! My sis-in-law was particularly agitated because many of her Karachi-ite cousins are doctors. She wants them to get the hell out of there.

I made the mistake of delicately challenging her about the plight of muslims in India. I was taken aback when she said ``I was living in Bombay during the hindu-muslim riots; I never felt personally targetted because I was muslim. But if I am a shia doctor in Karachi, i fear for my life. What can you say about a country that kills their own doctors, & the police doesnt do a damn thing about it?!`` Sigh...I guess all politics is local:)

My brother added that even muslims he knows in Bombay are pissed at Pakistan!..perhaps as much as they are pissed at the RSS! Incidentally (maybe Zafar, Faruk or nasah could tell me if I`m wrong)--non-Kashmiri Indian muslims feel just as strongly that IOK should not go to Pakistan.

On the flight back from NJ, my 2 feminazis were ready to strangle me:) My 16 yr old daughter retorted `` I`ll never go to NJ again if you & uncle A started going on & on about India & Pakistan. Who CARES about stupid India-Pakistan?!``.

I looked at my wife to see if she would admonish my daughter for that VERY disrespectful statement. To my horror, my loving Ayatollah was nodding in full agreement with her!! I spent the rest of the flight sulking. No point in arguing with those 2 feminazis when they band together against me, like that!

After a while I felt strangely happy about what my daughter said. If things go on like this, our country has no hope. 100 years from now, our descendants will be having these same arguments on Chowk. At least my child & grandchildren wont be tugged by that unfortunate part of the world, like I am.

Binifer,

Hon..any country YOU live in is NOT a banana republic!:)

hullo mr.sigalph

i met some lovely bangladeshis at a youth forum a few weeks back.:).some stuff you might be interested in.(ofcourse u may not also, but still)...from the official site of the reservist soldiers i believe



We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

• We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

• We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

• We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

• We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

• We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

• We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

• We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

• The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.



these are statements, personal essays by the guys who signed the above petition:

Asaf Oron`s statement (Translated by Amichai Kronfeld)

That night, I was a bit drunk. We sat around drinking in honor of Daniel who came all the way from France and made aliyah so he could faithfully serve the country, the army and Tali the female military social worker. We uncorked a Johnny Walker that Tali’s brother gave her, and we were listening to the Doors while smoking some hashish. You can’t be a real Nahal Corps soldier without drinking Johnny Walker, listening to the Doors, or smoking hashish. And the select few partake in all three… We’d just gotten back from Lebanon, and after a week of R&R we were sent right to the territories, to Gaza.

There’s no place like Gaza. With its blue sea and excellent hummus which even if you include a ton of pita bread, cracked olives and French fries won’t cost you more than 10 shekels, you’d even get back some change. Let me tell you about these Gazan olives. First of all, they are the most bitter ones in the entire world. Gaza people say that the olives get their bitterness from life in the Gaza strip. From the pressure of our occupation and the previous one and the one before that. And not only are these olives bitter, they can also drive you crazy with their saltiness. And that is because of the tears of the Gaza women. Tears they shed in the olive groves seep through into the olives.

The women of Gaza were the true heroes. While the men were busy tending to the miseries of life and looking for ways to liberate themselves from this or that occupation, the women were busy taking care of the kids, preparing the food and working in the groves. In the groves they had quality time. All alone there, they cried for their youth and for their dreams; for the sons who were killed or sent to prison, or for the sons who will be killed or will be sent to prison.

And the olives – they took it all in, which – contrary to general opinion – made them taste great and go very well with Whisky. Suddenly I thought about my mother who doesn’t sleep at night.

I tried to explain to her that all we did was drink Whisky and eat cracked olives. But she didn’t believe me, my mother, and began to cry.

She said she was scared. That she had bad dreams. Mom and her dreams. I told her not to worry and not to cry because if she did, the water in the Israeli aquifer would get salty and it would be her fault. This is what happened in Gaza and that’s why they are oppressed and occupied. It did not help, though. There’s no one like mom.

Tali said that Jim Morrison was King and started dancing. She was so beautiful, Tali! With her direct manners and her flat stomach and her breasts with the nipples that stood up like two small hills in the prairie. Daniel joined her and they kissed. I sat by myself and thought how Daniel was a victim of life. A human being whose life got screwed up and no one was paying attention.

Last week, during the demonstration near the green Mosque, Daniel accidentally fired some shots into the crowd and some pregnant Gaza woman was killed. I ran to her trying to provide some help, but she was already dying. She gave me a sad look and had tears in her eyes. She had a fifth month belly, and I knew she’d lost the baby. She was bleeding heavily from the abdomen and it took me a while to insert the IV and start the transfusion. Then she died at 6:00PM. Roni, the MD, and I began to cry. Manny, the driver, mumbled that she was just an Arab. Dead, so what? But he too was sad and I could see he was having a hard time with it. I kissed him on his forehead and told him to drive to headquarters. No one said a word to Daniel.

There was an investigation and it was decided that this had been a mistake. An accidental bullet. But no one talked to Daniel. I told Roni that Daniel needs some time off, that we need to talk to him, that he seemed strange. But Roni was busy and we were all busy: there were more demonstrations and more people got killed and I felt as if I was slowly going crazy. They taught us to fire our rifles, to set up ambushes, jump from an airplane, carry our gear, run, fall, run again. They forgot to teach us to talk, cry, forgive ourselves. Daniel looked at Tali, gave her another kiss, and said that he was stepping out for a second to take a leak.

I asked him if he wanted some company. Nah, he said, stay here and keep and eye on Tali for me. I stayed with Tali.

After a minute, we heard a shot.



Tal Belo



On February 5, 1985, I got up, left my home, went to the Compulsory Service Center on Rashi Street in Jerusalem, said goodbye to my parents, boarded the rickety old bus going to the Military Absorption Station and turned into a soldier.

Exactly seventeen years later, I find myself in a head to head confrontation with the army, while the public at large is jeering and mocking me from the sidelines. Right wingers see me as a traitor who is dodging the holy war that`s just around the corner. The political center shakes a finger at me self-righteously and lectures me about undermining democracy and politicizing the army. And the left? The square, establishment, ``moderate`` left that only yesterday was courting my vote now turns its back on me as well. Everyone blabbers about what is and what is not legitimate, exposing in the process the depth of their ignorance of political theory and their inability to distinguish a real democracy from a third world regime in the style of Juan Peron.

Almost no one asks the main question: why would a regular guy get up one morning in the middle of life, work, the kids and decide he`s not playing the game anymore? And how come he is not alone but there are fifty… I beg your pardon, a hundred… beg your pardon again, now almost two hundred regular, run of the mill guys like him who`ve done the same thing?

Our parents` generation lets out a sigh: we`ve embarrassed them yet again. But isn`t it all your fault? What did you raise us on? Universal ethics and universal justice, on the one hand: peace, liberty and equality to all. And on the other hand: ``the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, `` ``They are all crafty and primitive. You can`t trust them.`` On the one hand, the songs of John Lennon, Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Bob Marely, Pink Floyd. Songs of peace and love and against militarism and war.

On the other hand, songs about a sweetheart riding the tank after sunset in the field: ``The tank is yours and you are ours.`` [allusions to popular Israeli songs – AK]. I was raised on two value systems: one was the ethical code and the other the tribal code, and I na?vely believed that the two could coexist.

This is the way I was when I was drafted. Not enthusiastic, but as if embarking on a sacred mission of courage and sacrifice for the benefit of society. But when, instead of a sacred mission, a 19 year old finds himself performing the sacrilege of violating human beings` dignity and freedom, he doesn`t dare ask – even himself – if it`s OK or not. He simply acts like everyone else and tries to blend in. As it is, he`s got enough problems, and boy is the weekend far off.

You get used to it in a hurry, and many even learn to like it. Where else can you go out on patrol – that is, walk the streets like a king, harass and humiliate pedestrians to your heart`s content, and get into mischief with your buddies – and at the same time feel like a big hero defending your country? The Gaza Exploits became heroic tales, a source of pride for Giv`ati, then a relatively new brigade suffering from low self esteem.

For a long time, I could not relate to the whole ``heroism`` thing. But when, as a sergeant, I found myself in charge, something cracked inside me. Without thinking, I turned into the perfect occupation enforcer. I settled accounts with ``upstarts`` who didn`t show enough respect. I tore up the personal documents of men my father`s age. I hit, harassed, served as a bad example – all in the city of Kalkilia, barely three miles from grandma and grandpa`s home-sweet-home. No. I was no ``aberration.`` I was exactly the norm.

Having completed my compulsory service, I was discharged, and then the first Intifada began (how many more await us?) Ofer, a comrade in arms who remained in the service has become a hero: the hero of the second Giv`ati trial. He commanded a company that dragged a detained Palestinian demonstrator into a dark orange grove and beat him to death. As the verdict stated, Ofer was found to have been the leader in charge of the whole business. He spent two months in jail and was demoted – I think that was the most severe sentence given an Israeli soldier through the entire first Intifada, in which about a thousand Palestinians were killed. Ofer`s battalion commander testified that there was a order from the higher echelons to use beatings as a legitimate method of punishment, thereby implicating himself. On the other hand, Efi Itam, the brigade commander, who had been seen beating Arabs on numerous occasions, denied that he ever gave such an order and consequently was never indicted. Today he lectures us on moral conduct on his way to a new life in politics. (In the current Intifada, incidentally, the vast majority of incidents involving Palestinian deaths are not even investigated. No one even bothers.)

And in the meantime, I was becoming more of a civilian. A copy of The Yellow Wind [a book on life in the Occupied Territories by the Israeli writer David Grossman, available in English –AK] which had just come out, crossed my path. I read it, and suddenly it hit me. I finally understood what I had done over there. What I had been over there.

I began to see that they had cheated me: They raised me to believe there was someone up there taking care of things. Someone who knows stuff that is beyond me, the little guy. And that even if sometimes politicians let us down, the ``military echelon`` is always on guard, day and night, keeping us safe, each and every one of their decisions the result of sacred necessity. Yes, they cheated us, the soldiers of the Intifadas, exactly as they had cheated the generation that was beaten to a pulp in the War of Attrition and in the Yom Kippur War, exactly as they had cheated the generation that sank deep into the Lebanese mud during the Lebanon invasions. And our parents` generation continues to be silent.

Worse still, I understood that I was raised on two contradictory value systems. I think most people discover even at an earlier age they must choose between two value systems: an abstract, demanding one that is no fun at all and that is very difficult to verify, and another which calls to you from every corner – determining who is up and who is down, who is king and who – pariah, who is one of us and who is our enemy. Contrary to basic common sense, I picked the first. Because in this country the cost-effective analysis comparing one system to another is so lopsided, I can`t blame those who choose the second.

I picked the first road, and found myself volunteering in a small, smoke-filled office in East Jerusalem, digging up files about deaths, brutality, bureaucratic viciousness or simply daily harassments. I felt I was atoning, to some extent, for my actions during my days with the Giv`ati brigade. But it also felt as if I was trying to empty the ocean out with a teaspoon.

Out of the blue, I was called up for the very first time for reserve duty in the Occupied Territories. Hysterically, I contacted my company commander. He calmed me down: We will be staying at an outpost overlooking the Jordan river. No contacts with the local population is expected. And that indeed was what I did, but some of my friends provided security for the Damia Bridge terminal [where Palestinians cross from Jordan to Israel and vice versa – AK]. This was in the days preceding the Gulf War and a large number of Palestinian refugees were flowing from Kuwait to the Occupied Territories (from the frying pan into the fire). The reserve soldiers – mostly right wingers – cringed when they saw the female consscripts stationed in the terminal happily ripping open down-comforters and babies` coats to make sure they didn`t contain explosives. I too cringed when I heard their stories, but I was also hopeful: reserve soldiers are human after all, whatever their political views.

Such hopes were dashed three years later, when I spent three weeks with a celebrated reconnaissance company in the confiscated ruins of a villa at the outskirts of the Abasans (if you don`t know where this is, it`s your problem). This is where it became clear to me that the same humane reserve soldier could also be an ugly, wretched macho undergoing a total regression back to his days as a young conscript. Already on the bus ride to the Gaza strip, the soldiers were competing with each other: whose ``heroic`` tales of murderous beatings during the Intifada were better (in case you missed this point: the beatings were literally murderous: beating to death). Going on patrol duty with these guys once was all that I could take. I went up to the placement officer and requested to be given guard duty only. Placement officers like people like me: most soldiers can`t tolerate staying inside the base longer than a couple of hours.

Thus began the nausea and shame routine, a routine that lasted three tours of reserve duty in the Occupied Territories: 1993, 1995, and 1997. The ``pale-gray`` refusal routine. For several weeks at a time I would turn into a hidden ``prisoner of conscience, `` guarding an outpost or a godforsaken transmitter on top of some mountain, a recluse. I was ashamed to tell most of my friends why I chose to serve this way. I didn`t have the energy to hear them get on my case for being such a ``wishy washy`` softy. I was also ashamed of myself: This was the easy way out. In short, I was ashamed all over. I did ``save my own soul.`` I was not directly engaged in wrongdoing – only made it possible for others to do so while I kept guard. Why didn`t I refuse outright? I don`t know. It was partly the pressure to conform, partly the political process that gave us a glimmer of hope that the whole occupation business would be over soon. More than anything, it was my curiosity to see actually what was going on over there.

And precisely because I knew so well, first hand, from years of experience what was going on over there, what reality was like over there, I had no trouble seeing, through the fog of war and the curtain of lies, what has been taking place over there since the very first days of the second Intifada. For years, the army had been feeding on lines like ``We were too nice in the first Intifada, `` and ``If we had only killed a hundred in the very first days, everything would have been different.`` Now the army was given license to do things its way. I knew full well that [former Prime Minister] Ehud Barak was giving the army free hand, and that [current Chief of Staff] Shaul Mofaz was taking full advantage of this to maximize the bloodshed.



Dear Friends,

For many years I have carried with me visions of the narrow market streets of Damascus, the streets of Ramallah, and the dirt roads of Chan-Yunis, the regions of light and delight of the Middle East. In these places I began my army service in Israel after my unit returned from Lebanon (back then, in 1985, we thought that we had really left Lebanon). On my travels along the winding roads of Samaria and the Judean Hills, my heart was pulled toward the vistas of the Land of Israel and yet the same heart was embittered every day-- every morning-- as I went out to enforce the bitter control of the State of Israel on the inhabitants of the land.

Each day, I imagined myself in the streets of a city, Tel Aviv or Netanya, Hadera or Afula, forced to stop on my way to go shopping or to school and forced to go through a humiliating identity checks or forced to erase writing from a wall that I just happened to pass by. What would I do in such a situation? What would my Zionist education guide me to do? What kind of youth movement would I join?

Afterwards the riots came, and then Intifadas came, and then relative calm was restored, and then a lack of calm. I cannot even begin to describe the detentions, the torturing, and the physical and psychological suffering that we had caused to human beings who are just like us, and which we are still causing. Nor am I speaking of my close friends, who were injured physically or mentally as a result of the deeds that they participated in and because of the things that they witnessed. Nor about others who have left Israel or have in a variety of ways stopped doing their military service/reserve duty.

For many years, I have carried with me the feeling that I was mistaken in my decision to fulfill my duty as a soldier and as an officer. The idea that the army commanders, the government ministers we acting reasonably, and that it was my responsibility to defend my country until the Arabs understand that they must turn toward the way of peace, blurred my sensibilities. The idea of acting in any way different from the public consensus frightened me. However the conflict between human morality and the obligation to fulfill commands and to show solidarity never ceased for even a moment.

The deterioration of the current situation is not a new development but rather it is the logical continuation of a long process. It is a process, the beginning of which is an immoral and unjust rule of another people. A military rule that we established yet under which we ourselves would never ever be willing to live. We have allowed for refugee camps in which generations unnecessarily grow up in a grief-stricken reality.

We do have the right to live in a democratic country, which protects the honor and the value of every human being, to protect our secure borders, and to protect ourselves against enemies. We do not, however, have the right to humiliate, to exile, to torture, to imprison, and to negate the rights of other human beings.

I wanted to share with you some of my thoughts and feelings, which have led me, after many weeks (perhaps years) of deliberation to the decision to no longer agree to serve in reserve duty beyond the Green Line. To be sure, I will certainly continue as usual to serve and to fulfill all my reserve duty within the Green Line and will concern myself, as ever, with the defense of the State of Israel and its character. I have made this decision out of the belief that taking an oath of civil disobedience is a legitimate tool to stop the `march of folly` and the injuries of the occupation for the best interests of the citizens of the State and our future here.

Several months ago, Rachel, a citizen and resident of the US, and I decided to get married this summer. This decision necessarily raised the question of where we would make our home, where we would live - In her home in New York, or in my home in Israel. After much thinking and many considerations including weighing security and financial concerns, we rejected appealing offers in the US, and the love of the Land of Israel surpassed all else. Together we decided that Rachel would make aliyah and that we would make our home in Jerusalem. Precisely because we believe that in such a terribly difficult time there is a need to support and to strengthen the country and not to run to a safer place. This was the first time in my life that I seriously considered leaving Israel, and even so only for a limited amount of time. The decision to stay here in Israel strengthened the feeling that my responsibility is not only to risk endangering my life here, but also to risk having the courage to change the face of reality. The decision to refuse reserve duty in the territories is not out of intent to undermine or to divide but rather in order to strengthen our moral character and to defend ourselves against the destruction that has already been caused and that which will yet be carried out against us.

The Green Line is a line that the State of Israel has agreed upon as the one which delineates our legitimate borders. I do not believe and do not want this to be our permanent border, but rather believe that for as long as we don`t determine, with or without agreement, some other borders within which every citizen of the sate has the same rights and all people have human rights which come from the same authorities, we will need to uphold the Green Line as that border from which we defend and protect our country and our society.

A dear friend argues against me that in my refusal to serve in the territories I am abandoning the defense of his family and am endangering the lives of those who reside in the territories. In truth, the determination of ``who is endangering whom`` depends on one`s world-view and the way one interprets the current reality. I would be happy if my brothers and sisters, my people, those who currently dwell in Judea and Samaria would help to determine defendable and secure borders of our country. Our responsibility, each person for the other, must be mutual. I also want to continue to dream of the vision of a Land of Israel empty of its inhabitants for us to settle, but this land is not empty and it is stained in blood. Our mutual responsibility obligates us to dissemble immediately and together all the communities and settlements that are endangering the lives of their residents as well as the lives of those who defend them. We will then be able to create together a single continuous territory that is the State of Israel and its borders, in which we will build a humane and just society, and in which we will defend ourselves against our enemies and call out to them in peace. And we will agree that these are the borders of the country, `v`chai bahem` (``and live within them``) and then we will live -and not die- because of them.

I pray and hope that peace will triumph and that our actions will be for the good.

Ofer Bet-Halachmi.



Ever since my friends have heard that I signed the ‘courage to refuse’ letter, they keep raising the argument that a soldier can always refuse to obey certain commands above which ‘hangs a black flag.’ But whoever says that, does not understand that one big black flag hangs above all military activities in the Occupied Territories.

I will provide an example familiar to any soldier who has served in the Territories: manning an observation post on the roof of a civilian house. One might claim that no clear ‘black flag’ hangs above this activity, but I remember well my first observation post, in the town of Halhul near Hebron.

First, the external walls of the house were black with coffee leftovers spilled by the soldiers from the roof. The yard was full of sh!t and toilet papers because it served as the soldiers’ latrine. On the roof there were piles of trash and empty cans. The military vehicle bringing every new shift in would shatter the pavement and entrance to the house. When a shift changed at 2 AM, all the tenants would wake up, and since there was a baby in the house he would start wailing.

I remember the look on the face of the tenants whenever I bumped into them on the stairway: a look of humiliation.

At face value, it was not a ‘black flag’ situation. But in fact, a huge black sheet hangs over any military activity among civilian population.





Sincerely yours

Avner Kokhavi





[Translation note: ‘Black Flag’ is an allusion to a famous Israeli court ruling following the 1956 Kafr Qasm massacre. In this ruling, the judges said that any soldier has the right and obligation to refuse clearly illegal commands, above which ‘hangs a black flag’. In the 45 years that passed since then, not even a single soldier was protected by a military court for refusing to obey a command because it was a ‘black flag’ command].



First Scene – On the Road to Ein Beit Ilma

The reconnaissance jeep moves on the road, trying to maneuver between forgotten ‘ninjas’ [spikes scattered on roads to puncture tires of military vehicles] from last night, and plain old potholes. Across the road, on the electric line hanging in lazy negligence, so common to the Occupied Territories, waved in the early spring breeze a Palestinian flag. Underneath, the regiment commander’s jeep was already waiting, with the chubby regiment commander himself spread-eagled on the hood, enjoying the sun. “Are you from the new battalion? You arrived only yesterday, right? Who’s the patrol commander? You? Catch a local and ask him to burn – I emphasize, burn! The flag”, said the regiment commander to me. “Just take his ID card, and when I’m back, I don’t want to see that flag again.” The regiment commander’s jeep drove east to the outskirts of the city, and left us, three reserve soldiers, at the start of a mission…

It wasn’t hard to ‘catch’ a local and his friend, who after about an hour of pondering how to take off the flag without risking their lives, found a long wooden pole and whisked the flag away. “Burn it”, I commanded, but they ignored me. “You heard me? Burn it!” Quickly the flag was given to me. “Would you burn the Israeli flag?” One of the asked me in Hebrew, and I, embarrassed, remained there with what used to be a Palestinian flag. Without words and with a great shame, I gave them back their ID cards and we continued on our way.

We met the regiment commander in his jeep at the center of Nablus, near the Clock Square. “Sir – mission accomplished”, I quipped, “and here’s the proof” – the rag that once was a flag was delivered to the regiment commander’s shocked hands. On the same evening I was told that I’m being removed from my role as patrol commander for showing “disrespect” to the Nablus regiment commander.

Second Scene – El-Itihad Hospital, Nablus

“Anyone knows where El-Itihad hospital is?” Avner the company commander entered the reconnaissance platoon’s tent. We didn’t exactly answer. “Never mind”, said Avner, “You must get there right away with the [military] doctor. We’ve received reports about a gunshot-wounded young man who arrived there, and he might be wanted.”

We descended from our camp overlooking the town, and crossed this town full of horrors. It was early evening and we honked wildly to scare all vehicles off our way. At Jebel Shimali neighborhood on the slopes of Mount Eival, we were greeted with showers of stones and bottles. The large military escort entered the hospital compound with the doctor after a short negotiation. I, wearing a helmet and holding a gun, think about other sick visits at other times and places.

It is the most absolute contradiction – a hospital, the humane antithesis to our guns, helmets and flak jackets (worn in case some patient attacks us). The miserable supper served to the patients afterwards, the Palestinian doctor wearing a nozzle, the wounded man found and interrogated in his bloody bed – only so that we could learn that he was shot by settlers passing through the town, the amazing green eyes of a nurse with flowing black hair, who looked at us with burning hate. I feel an awesome nausea. Unable to hold it back, I throw up and cry outside the hospital walls. During the remainder of this service, each time I looked through the observation binoculars at the slopes of Mount Eival and saw the hospital’s neon lights, I felt a shudder down my spine.

Two days after this visit, our comrade Benny Meissner R.I.P. was killed in the Nablus Qasbah.





Avi Blum



should you want to sign the petition:

http://www.seruv.org.il/civEng.asp



sorry for so much cutnpaste.mr sigalph..did i tell you one bengali gave me a lovely pen--its made of wood that smells really nice..i think he had a crush on me;) do tell what u think of the above

best,

anNy

Reply Romair #460

``Your comments highlight the unfortunate chasm that exists between civilians and military folk in general in the world....``

``One of the worst insults in any military is to call someone a, ``civilian.`` If said seriously, it is considered more condescending than any other kind of abuse. I don`t know whether calling someone a, ``fauji`` is considered an insult in the civilian world. I assume it is not a compliment.``

##There was a time when I could even tolerate the contempt heaped upon us ``civilians``, those overfed, snivelling whiners who talked a lot and did nothing. Can`t say I liked it but it was somewhat reassuring that there was this elite segment of our population that stood proud untempted by a life less ordinary, who stood up to be counted and took danger by the scruff of its neck instead of moping around complaining how bad things were. I cheered from the sidelines when Demi Moore`s character in A Few Good Men said, when questioned by a lawyer why she ``liked them so much`` : ``Because they stand on a wall, and they say nobody`s gonna harm you. Not on my watch``

Can`t say precisely when it all changed. Maybe it was when the CSD officer in charge of processing a cooking oil order in my former company demanded a ``special discount`` to be paid partly in cash and partly in the shape of 15 litre jars that mysteriously vanished from the company warehouse; maybe it was when Tehelka did a deal with them simply by plying senior military officers with hard liquor and soft women-- something they have easy access to, anyway ; maybe it was when conclusive evidence emerged about how armies systematically use rape as wartime strategy, and even occasionally massacre their own in an attempt to garner some brownie points from those same ``civilians`` they purport to abhor. That proved nothing except this hallowed institution is, at the bottom of it, populated by human beings, who are only as good or bad as the society they stem from.

Ever sice the scales fell, my life has been much happier. I can now dismiss them as idiot children who didn`t score enough to make it medical or engineering or the civil services; products of abusive parents whose vengefulness was compelling enough reason to seek a profession that salutes violence and killing; self-aggrandizing testosterone-driven bullies who`ve outlived their usefulness in civil society; and ultimately, self-deluding masochists who have no idea how loudly the ``civilians`` sigh in relief at the thought that there are enough of them idiots rushing to the borders so that the rest of us don`t ever need worry about conscription.

So too-young-to-die people have their eyes gouged out in Kargil, lose limbs to frostbite in Siachen, get dumped across the Bangladesh border in sacks, and all I can think as I sit back sipping my whisky and soda (not subsidised mind you)is, ``Serve `em right; who asked them to enlist anyway?``

So there you have it, from my point of view at least....yup ``fauji`` is an insult. No two ways about it.....

sac:



“You don`t need a lot of brain power at even the highest ranks”

… aren’t promotions based on leadership, military skills, strategic/tactial know-how, aptitude and the l