We, The Muslim Americans

Re: Romair

``...but whether they (military people) turned into debilitatingly ill people or not...``

They do not, but they appear to do so when they take on responsibilities for which they have little training, aptitude and experience. Just as a brain surgeon will be utterly useless as a commanding officer, a commanding officer will be useless as a brain surgeon. Ditto for army officers assuming the mantle of politicians. All the examples of US politicians that you cite who have had previous military experience, did not gain that office through the barrel of a gun, but through a mechanism that every other office bearer has to follow.

Gen. Pace (serving Vice Chairman, US Joint Chiefs of Staff) was quoted yesterday as saying, `Just as I cannot be expected to play the political role of a US ambassdor overseas, an ambassador with no experience in commanding troops in battle can be expected to lead young men and women who have been given in trust by their parents`.

It was a crisp, to-the-point, straightforward, no-nonsense remark that clearly delineated the roles that each has to play. Gen. Pace know his place in subordination of civil authority very well.

Regards

Romair,

#457

I want to comment upon your observations re ``military`` vs ``civilian`` in Pakistan. You have made such references occassionally in the past as well.

I think its a sad state of affairs for a country where the civilans & military are in an adverserial relationship. After all, the PRIMARY role of ANY military is to protect the nation...ie the civilians, not just ``real estate``.

Seems to me the dominant discourse in the Pak military is that they are the most patriotic of all Pakistanis. The Pakistani civilians should be ``led`` & its beneath the military to take orders from civilians--because the latter is nothing but a bunch of undisciplined, corrupt & money hungry mofos.

Mushy imples that it is by divine right that he now has to lead the country out of the crisis. He absolutely believes that all patriotic Pakistanis have his full support.Its going to take him more than 3 years to set things right for Pakistan. The military has made the Pakistani civilians feel that they are not capable of running the country, without military ``supervision``. Any Pakistani who challenges that is not a ``patriotic`` Pakistani.

Thats the basis of a referendum. Thats when the goddess starts turning into a whore...no matter how great Mushy is. Human nature...if you dont respect me (whether you are right or wrong)...I wont respect you.

When the civilians start considering the military to be an adversary & not an ally, its all downhill for the country. Of course, the hypocritical US is not slamming the referendum. Wanna take a bet what the White House would have said if Mushy wanted a referendum BEFORE 9/11?!

Fortunately for India, the military has NEVER treated her civilians with such disrespect (except if you discount Kashmiris as Indian citizens). Even during Indira Gandhi`s Emergency, the military refused to get involved. I dont think there are Indian citizens (except Kashmiris) who express so much antipathy towards their military..as I see Pakistanis do (on Chowk, at least).

i apologize for all so much pasting but this stuff is really interesting

the reservists are answering frequently asked questions

http://www.seruv.org.il/FAQEng.asp

Question: In a democratic society, is it permissible for army reservists to refuse to serve in a location or carry out a function designated by the army?





Answer: The foremost duty of a citizen in a democracy is to ensure that it remain democratic. Majority rule is a central principle of democracy, but it is not the only one. There are some things that a democracy is prohibited from doing. (Everyone is in agreement about that; the question is, which things?) So it is one`s civic duty to refuse to perform undemocratic activities, even in the name of one`s country. In our opinion, the lengthy occupation (35 years, including the transfer of Jewish citizens into occupied territories)--and, in particular, the means we are forced to use in order to maintain the occupation--are so anti-democratic that they override the principle of majority rule. Thus, the very refusal to carry out such orders is a true democratic act. Our refusal is not undermining the nature of the State of Israel as a democratic nation. On the contrary--it is strengthening it. Moreover, democratic governments everywhere, including in Israel, are known for never doing ``the right thing`` until they are pressured to do so by public opinion. It is the duty of a democratic citizenry to apply such pressure. When members of a minority feel that the democratic regime is too oppressive, or is forcing them to obey laws which are contrary to their conscience, they sometimes reach the point where they are ready to pay the price for refusing to compromise their principles. Sometimes it turns out that this minority is, in fact, not a minority at all. Only when it rises up and succeeds in mustering support for its stand is it then strong enough to influence majority opinion. The strike waged by the handicapped is a case in point. Another example: The Kfar Sava Municipality decided to drastically raise property taxes. Property owners in Kfar Sava decided not to pay the extra amount, even though they were charged fines and other surcharges. In the end, the decision was overturned, property taxes were restored to their former level, and all the surcharges were annulled. We have always been the ``good guys`` who carry out their obligations without asking too many questions. But the rules of the game have to change, and the time for change is now.





Question: If the government were to decide to evacuate settlements in the West Bank and Gaza, and soldiers who support such settlement refused to evacuate them, would you be as understanding?





Answer: A. Absolutely! Difficult as it may be, we will not force unwilling soldiers to evacuate settlements.





Question: What do you expect the army to do? To ask every soldier if he feels like serving in the occupied territories?





Answer: A. The army is considerate of the feelings of other sectors of the population. Ultra-orthodox Jews are not required to serve in the army. Special arrangements are made for outstanding athletes and musicians; only children; soldiers without family in Israel; soldiers from the lower socioeconomic strata of society, and many others. Gen. Uzi Dayan once said that the I.D.F. ``must allow discussion of the moral aspects of service in the territories.`` To date, there is no avenue for a soldier plagued by moral questions to find solutions to his problems. Quite the contrary. Conscientious objectors are subjected to humiliation and vindictive behavior, forced to choose between prison or consultation with a mental health officer. And the army, by refusing to deal with the issue, loses out on one more soldier who could have made an important contribution in another post. The army must come to realize that moral values have the same restrictive effect on a soldier`s actions as do medical or psychological disabilities. Why should we risk our lives, at the same time compromising our values? Our military and political leaders are obliged to explain to us what we are fighting for. What are our objectives? Who is the enemy? Is there really no other option? By evading political decisions the government is abandoning all of us to our fate. We need to have our faith restored, the faith that was lost long ago.





Question: We are at war. Don`t you think that it is criminal to refuse to serve in wartime?





Answer: When the country is fighting for its life, we all have to take part in the struggle. Today we are not fighting for the survival of the state. We are fighting to maintain our role as conqueror and occupier of the territories. Our feeling is that the mutual acts of terror are not inevitable; the situation can be changed. The decision is a political one, not a military one. Declaring a state of ``war`` in order to induce an atmosphere in which people feel they are obliged to serve, is the same as declaring an area to be a ``restricted military area`` in order to evacuate the civilian population, or declaring a ``state of emergency`` in order to crush a workers` strike. It is a cynical use of power by governments (the journalist, Ofer Shelach, called our government a ``military junta``) in order to squelch legitimate protest. During the twentieth century millions of soldiers went off to what today are considered to have been unnecessary wars. We have decided to say: No!





Question: What`s your problem? All you`re being asked to do is to protect Israeli citizens who work or travel in the territories. How is that any different from protecting citizens anywhere else? For example, why is that different from patrolling an airport overseas?





Answer: The best answer we can give is a quote from Gen. (res.) Effi Etam [today a leader of Israel`s militant right wing]. Etam wrote that civilians living in combat zones should know that they are likely to be hurt. He, of course, was referring to Palestinians living in Raffah, but his words are applicable to the Jewish settlers as well. These settlers are far from being innocent lambs. They refuse to allow the building of protective walls around their settlements, they refuse to bullet-proof their cars, and they refuse to adapt their way of life to the reality of living in a combat zone. They trick the army, setting up outposts behind its back and forcing it to split up its defense forces; they provoke conflict whenever things get quiet. They are not helping themselves--why do I have to help them?





Question: Your claims are political in nature. Political protest is legitimate, but the army stands outside of politics, doesn`t it?





Answer: I have two answers to this question. First of all, the army has been engaging in politics for long time. It is more political today than it`s ever been, and there`s no use in pretending to be neutral. Witness some of the comments made by the Chief of Staff, the head of the Intelligence Branch, etc. Not to mention the lies put out by the Army Spokesman that have raised serious doubts as to his credibility. Second, its true that until now you have asked questions with a political flavor to them. But my refusal to serve in the territories is primarily grounded in moral reasons. We know what kind of activities the soldiers--especially the reservists--are being required to carry out. It`s not about apprehending potential terrorists; it`s not about demolishing artillery positions that are shooting at Jewish settlements inside the Green Line. It`s not really necessary to recount the stories; you can read about them every day in the newspapers, including the Israeli press. You can see pictures on the foreign news stations, you can talk to soldiers who return home in shock from the checkposts. They are turning us into animals; they are giving free rein to the most sadistic elements among us. We are not prepared to be part of this. In all the accounts of the most vicious conflicts known to the twentieth century, people have always lauded those few who refused to take part in the atrocities and who offered their aid to the victims, whether openly or in secret. How many war movies have been made showing the ``good soldier`` who refuses to harm defenseless civilians? I feel that this is now our moment of truth, and every one of us has to decide if he is or is not a of the human race.





Question: That`s all well and good, but you should be there at the checkpost, making sure that these things don`t happen. What good does it do if you stay inside the Green Line?





Answer: A. That`s a nice suggestion, but it`s not practical. You have to be there in order to understand that one single soldier with a conscience cannot make an impact. The others will simply ignore him and do whatever they feel like doing. Not to mention the fact that the comman- ding officers usually back them up or turn a blind eye. True, I can lodge a complaint after the fact. But I`m not naive. I know what they do with my complaints. I`m also not trying to hide behind anything or be relieved of duty for psychiatric reasons. No, I am refusing to obey orders. I am refusing because I want my refusal to make waves, to arouse others to action, to create such an outcry that the foundations will shake--maybe then there will be an impact. Only numbers can make a difference, and when there is organized protest, there are numbers. That`s how we got out of Lebanon, for example. Our hope is that the next time some cabinet ministers discuss whether to demolish a neighborhood or drop bombs near a school, they will remember that the people who carry out their instructions have other values besides obeying orders, and that to continue this policy is to weaken the public backing of the army.





Question: Q. The Palestinians are trying to destroy us. They are slaughtering us in the streets and have vowed to annihilate us. There is no possibility of peace with such people. We have no choice but to fight.





Answer: A. It`s important to understand that our criticism of the way our army is behaving in no way implies support for the actions of the other side. We can`t allow their crimes to legitimize our foolishness. I feel responsible only for the actions of my country, and I can only protest against them, regardless of whether the other side is guilty or innocent. Furthermore, one mustn`t use the same moral criteria to compare the terrorist acts of the Hamas with the military acts of a sovereign state such as Israel. The I.D.F. is not a terrorist organization. The I.D.F. is not an underground movement struggling against its conquerors. The I.D.F. is not meant to carry out acts of vengeance but to implement pragmatic political policy. We are asking Arafat to risk civil war, without giving him any political rationale for doing so. Even Ben-Gurion didn`t disband the underground movements before he had a state in hand. The Palestinians` burning hatred towards us stems, in large part, from the very policies that we are protesting against. Extreme statements are being made daily by extremists on both sides. They must not be allowed to dictate policy while those who seek peace and choose life stand by and pay the terrible price.

Thanks to Rina Shelef for the excelent Translation.

fairdinkum,

I sincerely hope you are right & I am wrong. Otherwise there is no hope for India & Pakistan.

My ``Indian point of view`` is far from scientific. Its a gist of impressions I have developed over the past few months. In my ``cultural microcosm`` of Indians, that is the dominant discourse.

Personally, I`m extremely dissappointed by how megalomaniacal & prejudiced they have become. Its largely a result of what they percieve is the Pakistani guerella war in Kashmir--the pinnacle was the raid on the Indian parliament. I have never seen such anti-Pakistan fervor in India, when I was living there..until the late 70s.

I`ll be the happiest guy on earth if Indians & Pakistanis lose their prejudices & learn to get on with life.

The icing on the cake was a recent weekend visit to NJ to see my brother & sis-in-law. Their 8 mo old daughter is the cutest niece in the world (OK I`m prejudiced). Ordinarily, they are the most ``neutral`` Indians I`ve known, as far as Pakistan is concerned. My sis-in-law has several relatives living in Karachi.

They recently came back from a visit to India. Most of that weekend was spent in a heated debate about Indo-Pak politics, between mois & the 2 of them. I could believe that even they were turning anti-Pakistan! My sis-in-law was particularly agitated because many of her Karachi-ite cousins are doctors. She wants them to get the hell out of there.

I made the mistake of delicately challenging her about the plight of muslims in India. I was taken aback when she said ``I was living in Bombay during the hindu-muslim riots; I never felt personally targetted because I was muslim. But if I am a shia doctor in Karachi, i fear for my life. What can you say about a country that kills their own doctors, & the police doesnt do a damn thing about it?!`` Sigh...I guess all politics is local:)

My brother added that even muslims he knows in Bombay are pissed at Pakistan!..perhaps as much as they are pissed at the RSS! Incidentally (maybe Zafar, Faruk or nasah could tell me if I`m wrong)--non-Kashmiri Indian muslims feel just as strongly that IOK should not go to Pakistan.

On the flight back from NJ, my 2 feminazis were ready to strangle me:) My 16 yr old daughter retorted `` I`ll never go to NJ again if you & uncle A started going on & on about India & Pakistan. Who CARES about stupid India-Pakistan?!``.

I looked at my wife to see if she would admonish my daughter for that VERY disrespectful statement. To my horror, my loving Ayatollah was nodding in full agreement with her!! I spent the rest of the flight sulking. No point in arguing with those 2 feminazis when they band together against me, like that!

After a while I felt strangely happy about what my daughter said. If things go on like this, our country has no hope. 100 years from now, our descendants will be having these same arguments on Chowk. At least my child & grandchildren wont be tugged by that unfortunate part of the world, like I am.

Binifer,

Hon..any country YOU live in is NOT a banana republic!:)

hullo mr.sigalph

i met some lovely bangladeshis at a youth forum a few weeks back.:).some stuff you might be interested in.(ofcourse u may not also, but still)...from the official site of the reservist soldiers i believe



We, reserve combat officers and soldiers of the Israel Defense Forces, who were raised upon the principles of Zionism, sacrifice and giving to the people of Israel and to the State of Israel, who have always served in the front lines, and who were the first to carry out any mission, light or heavy, in order to protect the State of Israel and strengthen it.

• We, combat officers and soldiers who have served the State of Israel for long weeks every year, in spite of the dear cost to our personal lives, have been on reserve duty all over the Occupied Territories, and were issued commands and directives that had nothing to do with the security of our country, and that had the sole purpose of perpetuating our control over the Palestinian people. We, whose eyes have seen the bloody toll this Occupation exacts from both sides.

• We, who sensed how the commands issued to us in the Territories, destroy all the values we had absorbed while growing up in this country.

• We, who understand now that the price of Occupation is the loss of IDF’s human character and the corruption of the entire Israeli society.

• We, who know that the Territories are not Israel, and that all settlements are bound to be evacuated in the end.

• We hereby declare that we shall not continue to fight this War of the Settlements.

• We shall not continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate, expel, starve and humiliate an entire people.

• We hereby declare that we shall continue serving in the Israel Defense Forces in any mission that serves Israel’s defense.

• The missions of occupation and oppression do not serve this purpose – and we shall take no part in them.



these are statements, personal essays by the guys who signed the above petition:

Asaf Oron`s statement (Translated by Amichai Kronfeld)

That night, I was a bit drunk. We sat around drinking in honor of Daniel who came all the way from France and made aliyah so he could faithfully serve the country, the army and Tali the female military social worker. We uncorked a Johnny Walker that Tali’s brother gave her, and we were listening to the Doors while smoking some hashish. You can’t be a real Nahal Corps soldier without drinking Johnny Walker, listening to the Doors, or smoking hashish. And the select few partake in all three… We’d just gotten back from Lebanon, and after a week of R&R we were sent right to the territories, to Gaza.

There’s no place like Gaza. With its blue sea and excellent hummus which even if you include a ton of pita bread, cracked olives and French fries won’t cost you more than 10 shekels, you’d even get back some change. Let me tell you about these Gazan olives. First of all, they are the most bitter ones in the entire world. Gaza people say that the olives get their bitterness from life in the Gaza strip. From the pressure of our occupation and the previous one and the one before that. And not only are these olives bitter, they can also drive you crazy with their saltiness. And that is because of the tears of the Gaza women. Tears they shed in the olive groves seep through into the olives.

The women of Gaza were the true heroes. While the men were busy tending to the miseries of life and looking for ways to liberate themselves from this or that occupation, the women were busy taking care of the kids, preparing the food and working in the groves. In the groves they had quality time. All alone there, they cried for their youth and for their dreams; for the sons who were killed or sent to prison, or for the sons who will be killed or will be sent to prison.

And the olives – they took it all in, which – contrary to general opinion – made them taste great and go very well with Whisky. Suddenly I thought about my mother who doesn’t sleep at night.

I tried to explain to her that all we did was drink Whisky and eat cracked olives. But she didn’t believe me, my mother, and began to cry.

She said she was scared. That she had bad dreams. Mom and her dreams. I told her not to worry and not to cry because if she did, the water in the Israeli aquifer would get salty and it would be her fault. This is what happened in Gaza and that’s why they are oppressed and occupied. It did not help, though. There’s no one like mom.

Tali said that Jim Morrison was King and started dancing. She was so beautiful, Tali! With her direct manners and her flat stomach and her breasts with the nipples that stood up like two small hills in the prairie. Daniel joined her and they kissed. I sat by myself and thought how Daniel was a victim of life. A human being whose life got screwed up and no one was paying attention.

Last week, during the demonstration near the green Mosque, Daniel accidentally fired some shots into the crowd and some pregnant Gaza woman was killed. I ran to her trying to provide some help, but she was already dying. She gave me a sad look and had tears in her eyes. She had a fifth month belly, and I knew she’d lost the baby. She was bleeding heavily from the abdomen and it took me a while to insert the IV and start the transfusion. Then she died at 6:00PM. Roni, the MD, and I began to cry. Manny, the driver, mumbled that she was just an Arab. Dead, so what? But he too was sad and I could see he was having a hard time with it. I kissed him on his forehead and told him to drive to headquarters. No one said a word to Daniel.

There was an investigation and it was decided that this had been a mistake. An accidental bullet. But no one talked to Daniel. I told Roni that Daniel needs some time off, that we need to talk to him, that he seemed strange. But Roni was busy and we were all busy: there were more demonstrations and more people got killed and I felt as if I was slowly going crazy. They taught us to fire our rifles, to set up ambushes, jump from an airplane, carry our gear, run, fall, run again. They forgot to teach us to talk, cry, forgive ourselves. Daniel looked at Tali, gave her another kiss, and said that he was stepping out for a second to take a leak.

I asked him if he wanted some company. Nah, he said, stay here and keep and eye on Tali for me. I stayed with Tali.

After a minute, we heard a shot.



Tal Belo



On February 5, 1985, I got up, left my home, went to the Compulsory Service Center on Rashi Street in Jerusalem, said goodbye to my parents, boarded the rickety old bus going to the Military Absorption Station and turned into a soldier.

Exactly seventeen years later, I find myself in a head to head confrontation with the army, while the public at large is jeering and mocking me from the sidelines. Right wingers see me as a traitor who is dodging the holy war that`s just around the corner. The political center shakes a finger at me self-righteously and lectures me about undermining democracy and politicizing the army. And the left? The square, establishment, ``moderate`` left that only yesterday was courting my vote now turns its back on me as well. Everyone blabbers about what is and what is not legitimate, exposing in the process the depth of their ignorance of political theory and their inability to distinguish a real democracy from a third world regime in the style of Juan Peron.

Almost no one asks the main question: why would a regular guy get up one morning in the middle of life, work, the kids and decide he`s not playing the game anymore? And how come he is not alone but there are fifty… I beg your pardon, a hundred… beg your pardon again, now almost two hundred regular, run of the mill guys like him who`ve done the same thing?

Our parents` generation lets out a sigh: we`ve embarrassed them yet again. But isn`t it all your fault? What did you raise us on? Universal ethics and universal justice, on the one hand: peace, liberty and equality to all. And on the other hand: ``the Arabs want to throw us into the sea, `` ``They are all crafty and primitive. You can`t trust them.`` On the one hand, the songs of John Lennon, Pete Seeger, Bob Dylan, Bob Marely, Pink Floyd. Songs of peace and love and against militarism and war.

On the other hand, songs about a sweetheart riding the tank after sunset in the field: ``The tank is yours and you are ours.`` [allusions to popular Israeli songs – AK]. I was raised on two value systems: one was the ethical code and the other the tribal code, and I na?vely believed that the two could coexist.

This is the way I was when I was drafted. Not enthusiastic, but as if embarking on a sacred mission of courage and sacrifice for the benefit of society. But when, instead of a sacred mission, a 19 year old finds himself performing the sacrilege of violating human beings` dignity and freedom, he doesn`t dare ask – even himself – if it`s OK or not. He simply acts like everyone else and tries to blend in. As it is, he`s got enough problems, and boy is the weekend far off.

You get used to it in a hurry, and many even learn to like it. Where else can you go out on patrol – that is, walk the streets like a king, harass and humiliate pedestrians to your heart`s content, and get into mischief with your buddies – and at the same time feel like a big hero defending your country? The Gaza Exploits became heroic tales, a source of pride for Giv`ati, then a relatively new brigade suffering from low self esteem.

For a long time, I could not relate to the whole ``heroism`` thing. But when, as a sergeant, I found myself in charge, something cracked inside me. Without thinking, I turned into the perfect occupation enforcer. I settled accounts with ``upstarts`` who didn`t show enough respect. I tore up the personal documents of men my father`s age. I hit, harassed, served as a bad example – all in the city of Kalkilia, barely three miles from grandma and grandpa`s home-sweet-home. No. I was no ``aberration.`` I was exactly the norm.

Having completed my compulsory service, I was discharged, and then the first Intifada began (how many more await us?) Ofer, a comrade in arms who remained in the service has become a hero: the hero of the second Giv`ati trial. He commanded a company that dragged a detained Palestinian demonstrator into a dark orange grove and beat him to death. As the verdict stated, Ofer was found to have been the leader in charge of the whole business. He spent two months in jail and was demoted – I think that was the most severe sentence given an Israeli soldier through the entire first Intifada, in which about a thousand Palestinians were killed. Ofer`s battalion commander testified that there was a order from the higher echelons to use beatings as a legitimate method of punishment, thereby implicating himself. On the other hand, Efi Itam, the brigade commander, who had been seen beating Arabs on numerous occasions, denied that he ever gave such an order and consequently was never indicted. Today he lectures us on moral conduct on his way to a new life in politics. (In the current Intifada, incidentally, the vast majority of incidents involving Palestinian deaths are not even investigated. No one even bothers.)

And in the meantime, I was becoming more of a civilian. A copy of The Yellow Wind [a book on life in the Occupied Territories by the Israeli writer David Grossman, available in English –AK] which had just come out, crossed my path. I read it, and suddenly it hit me. I finally understood what I had done over there. What I had been over there.

I began to see that they had cheated me: They raised me to believe there was someone up there taking care of things. Someone who knows stuff that is beyond me, the little guy. And that even if sometimes politicians let us down, the ``military echelon`` is always on guard, day and night, keeping us safe, each and every one of their decisions the result of sacred necessity. Yes, they cheated us, the soldiers of the Intifadas, exactly as they had cheated the generation that was beaten to a pulp in the War of Attrition and in the Yom Kippur War, exactly as they had cheated the generation that sank deep into the Lebanese mud during the Lebanon invasions. And our parents` generation continues to be silent.

Worse still, I understood that I was raised on two contradictory value systems. I think most people discover even at an earlier age they must choose between two value systems: an abstract, demanding one that is no fun at all and that is very difficult to verify, and another which calls to you from every corner – determining who is up and who is down, who is king and who – pariah, who is one of us and who is our enemy. Contrary to basic common sense, I picked the first. Because in this country the cost-effective analysis comparing one system to another is so lopsided, I can`t blame those who choose the second.

I picked the first road, and found myself volunteering in a small, smoke-filled office in East Jerusalem, digging up files about deaths, brutality, bureaucratic viciousness or simply daily harassments. I felt I was atoning, to some extent, for my actions during my days with the Giv`ati brigade. But it also felt as if I was trying to empty the ocean out with a teaspoon.

Out of the blue, I was called up for the very first time for reserve duty in the Occupied Territories. Hysterically, I contacted my company commander. He calmed me down: We will be staying at an outpost overlooking the Jordan river. No contacts with the local population is expected. And that indeed was what I did, but some of my friends provided security for the Damia Bridge terminal [where Palestinians cross from Jordan to Israel and vice versa – AK]. This was in the days preceding the Gulf War and a large number of Palestinian refugees were flowing from Kuwait to the Occupied Territories (from the frying pan into the fire). The reserve soldiers – mostly right wingers – cringed when they saw the female consscripts stationed in the terminal happily ripping open down-comforters and babies` coats to make sure they didn`t contain explosives. I too cringed when I heard their stories, but I was also hopeful: reserve soldiers are human after all, whatever their political views.

Such hopes were dashed three years later, when I spent three weeks with a celebrated reconnaissance company in the confiscated ruins of a villa at the outskirts of the Abasans (if you don`t know where this is, it`s your problem). This is where it became clear to me that the same humane reserve soldier could also be an ugly, wretched macho undergoing a total regression back to his days as a young conscript. Already on the bus ride to the Gaza strip, the soldiers were competing with each other: whose ``heroic`` tales of murderous beatings during the Intifada were better (in case you missed this point: the beatings were literally murderous: beating to death). Going on patrol duty with these guys once was all that I could take. I went up to the placement officer and requested to be given guard duty only. Placement officers like people like me: most soldiers can`t tolerate staying inside the base longer than a couple of hours.

Thus began the nausea and shame routine, a routine that lasted three tours of reserve duty in the Occupied Territories: 1993, 1995, and 1997. The ``pale-gray`` refusal routine. For several weeks at a time I would turn into a hidden ``prisoner of conscience, `` guarding an outpost or a godforsaken transmitter on top of some mountain, a recluse. I was ashamed to tell most of my friends why I chose to serve this way. I didn`t have the energy to hear them get on my case for being such a ``wishy washy`` softy. I was also ashamed of myself: This was the easy way out. In short, I was ashamed all over. I did ``save my own soul.`` I was not directly engaged in wrongdoing – only made it possible for others to do so while I kept guard. Why didn`t I refuse outright? I don`t know. It was partly the pressure to conform, partly the political process that gave us a glimmer of hope that the whole occupation business would be over soon. More than anything, it was my curiosity to see actually what was going on over there.

And precisely because I knew so well, first hand, from years of experience what was going on over there, what reality was like over there, I had no trouble seeing, through the fog of war and the curtain of lies, what has been taking place over there since the very first days of the second Intifada. For years, the army had been feeding on lines like ``We were too nice in the first Intifada, `` and ``If we had only killed a hundred in the very first days, everything would have been different.`` Now the army was given license to do things its way. I knew full well that [former Prime Minister] Ehud Barak was giving the army free hand, and that [current Chief of Staff] Shaul Mofaz was taking full advantage of this to maximize the bloodshed.



Dear Friends,

For many years I have carried with me visions of the narrow market streets of Damascus, the streets of Ramallah, and the dirt roads of Chan-Yunis, the regions of light and delight of the Middle East. In these places I began my army service in Israel after my unit returned from Lebanon (back then, in 1985, we thought that we had really left Lebanon). On my travels along the winding roads of Samaria and the Judean Hills, my heart was pulled toward the vistas of the Land of Israel and yet the same heart was embittered every day-- every morning-- as I went out to enforce the bitter control of the State of Israel on the inhabitants of the land.

Each day, I imagined myself in the streets of a city, Tel Aviv or Netanya, Hadera or Afula, forced to stop on my way to go shopping or to school and forced to go through a humiliating identity checks or forced to erase writing from a wall that I just happened to pass by. What would I do in such a situation? What would my Zionist education guide me to do? What kind of youth movement would I join?

Afterwards the riots came, and then Intifadas came, and then relative calm was restored, and then a lack of calm. I cannot even begin to describe the detentions, the torturing, and the physical and psychological suffering that we had caused to human beings who are just like us, and which we are still causing. Nor am I speaking of my close friends, who were injured physically or mentally as a result of the deeds that they participated in and because of the things that they witnessed. Nor about others who have left Israel or have in a variety of ways stopped doing their military service/reserve duty.

For many years, I have carried with me the feeling that I was mistaken in my decision to fulfill my duty as a soldier and as an officer. The idea that the army commanders, the government ministers we acting reasonably, and that it was my responsibility to defend my country until the Arabs understand that they must turn toward the way of peace, blurred my sensibilities. The idea of acting in any way different from the public consensus frightened me. However the conflict between human morality and the obligation to fulfill commands and to show solidarity never ceased for even a moment.

The deterioration of the current situation is not a new development but rather it is the logical continuation of a long process. It is a process, the beginning of which is an immoral and unjust rule of another people. A military rule that we established yet under which we ourselves would never ever be willing to live. We have allowed for refugee camps in which generations unnecessarily grow up in a grief-stricken reality.

We do have the right to live in a democratic country, which protects the honor and the value of every human being, to protect our secure borders, and to protect ourselves against enemies. We do not, however, have the right to humiliate, to exile, to torture, to imprison, and to negate the rights of other human beings.

I wanted to share with you some of my thoughts and feelings, which have led me, after many weeks (perhaps years) of deliberation to the decision to no longer agree to serve in reserve duty beyond the Green Line. To be sure, I will certainly continue as usual to serve and to fulfill all my reserve duty within the Green Line and will concern myself, as ever, with the defense of the State of Israel and its character. I have made this decision out of the belief that taking an oath of civil disobedience is a legitimate tool to stop the `march of folly` and the injuries of the occupation for the best interests of the citizens of the State and our future here.

Several months ago, Rachel, a citizen and resident of the US, and I decided to get married this summer. This decision necessarily raised the question of where we would make our home, where we would live - In her home in New York, or in my home in Israel. After much thinking and many considerations including weighing security and financial concerns, we rejected appealing offers in the US, and the love of the Land of Israel surpassed all else. Together we decided that Rachel would make aliyah and that we would make our home in Jerusalem. Precisely because we believe that in such a terribly difficult time there is a need to support and to strengthen the country and not to run to a safer place. This was the first time in my life that I seriously considered leaving Israel, and even so only for a limited amount of time. The decision to stay here in Israel strengthened the feeling that my responsibility is not only to risk endangering my life here, but also to risk having the courage to change the face of reality. The decision to refuse reserve duty in the territories is not out of intent to undermine or to divide but rather in order to strengthen our moral character and to defend ourselves against the destruction that has already been caused and that which will yet be carried out against us.

The Green Line is a line that the State of Israel has agreed upon as the one which delineates our legitimate borders. I do not believe and do not want this to be our permanent border, but rather believe that for as long as we don`t determine, with or without agreement, some other borders within which every citizen of the sate has the same rights and all people have human rights which come from the same authorities, we will need to uphold the Green Line as that border from which we defend and protect our country and our society.

A dear friend argues against me that in my refusal to serve in the territories I am abandoning the defense of his family and am endangering the lives of those who reside in the territories. In truth, the determination of ``who is endangering whom`` depends on one`s world-view and the way one interprets the current reality. I would be happy if my brothers and sisters, my people, those who currently dwell in Judea and Samaria would help to determine defendable and secure borders of our country. Our responsibility, each person for the other, must be mutual. I also want to continue to dream of the vision of a Land of Israel empty of its inhabitants for us to settle, but this land is not empty and it is stained in blood. Our mutual responsibility obligates us to dissemble immediately and together all the communities and settlements that are endangering the lives of their residents as well as the lives of those who defend them. We will then be able to create together a single continuous territory that is the State of Israel and its borders, in which we will build a humane and just society, and in which we will defend ourselves against our enemies and call out to them in peace. And we will agree that these are the borders of the country, `v`chai bahem` (``and live within them``) and then we will live -and not die- because of them.

I pray and hope that peace will triumph and that our actions will be for the good.

Ofer Bet-Halachmi.



Ever since my friends have heard that I signed the ‘courage to refuse’ letter, they keep raising the argument that a soldier can always refuse to obey certain commands above which ‘hangs a black flag.’ But whoever says that, does not understand that one big black flag hangs above all military activities in the Occupied Territories.

I will provide an example familiar to any soldier who has served in the Territories: manning an observation post on the roof of a civilian house. One might claim that no clear ‘black flag’ hangs above this activity, but I remember well my first observation post, in the town of Halhul near Hebron.

First, the external walls of the house were black with coffee leftovers spilled by the soldiers from the roof. The yard was full of sh!t and toilet papers because it served as the soldiers’ latrine. On the roof there were piles of trash and empty cans. The military vehicle bringing every new shift in would shatter the pavement and entrance to the house. When a shift changed at 2 AM, all the tenants would wake up, and since there was a baby in the house he would start wailing.

I remember the look on the face of the tenants whenever I bumped into them on the stairway: a look of humiliation.

At face value, it was not a ‘black flag’ situation. But in fact, a huge black sheet hangs over any military activity among civilian population.





Sincerely yours

Avner Kokhavi





[Translation note: ‘Black Flag’ is an allusion to a famous Israeli court ruling following the 1956 Kafr Qasm massacre. In this ruling, the judges said that any soldier has the right and obligation to refuse clearly illegal commands, above which ‘hangs a black flag’. In the 45 years that passed since then, not even a single soldier was protected by a military court for refusing to obey a command because it was a ‘black flag’ command].



First Scene – On the Road to Ein Beit Ilma

The reconnaissance jeep moves on the road, trying to maneuver between forgotten ‘ninjas’ [spikes scattered on roads to puncture tires of military vehicles] from last night, and plain old potholes. Across the road, on the electric line hanging in lazy negligence, so common to the Occupied Territories, waved in the early spring breeze a Palestinian flag. Underneath, the regiment commander’s jeep was already waiting, with the chubby regiment commander himself spread-eagled on the hood, enjoying the sun. “Are you from the new battalion? You arrived only yesterday, right? Who’s the patrol commander? You? Catch a local and ask him to burn – I emphasize, burn! The flag”, said the regiment commander to me. “Just take his ID card, and when I’m back, I don’t want to see that flag again.” The regiment commander’s jeep drove east to the outskirts of the city, and left us, three reserve soldiers, at the start of a mission…

It wasn’t hard to ‘catch’ a local and his friend, who after about an hour of pondering how to take off the flag without risking their lives, found a long wooden pole and whisked the flag away. “Burn it”, I commanded, but they ignored me. “You heard me? Burn it!” Quickly the flag was given to me. “Would you burn the Israeli flag?” One of the asked me in Hebrew, and I, embarrassed, remained there with what used to be a Palestinian flag. Without words and with a great shame, I gave them back their ID cards and we continued on our way.

We met the regiment commander in his jeep at the center of Nablus, near the Clock Square. “Sir – mission accomplished”, I quipped, “and here’s the proof” – the rag that once was a flag was delivered to the regiment commander’s shocked hands. On the same evening I was told that I’m being removed from my role as patrol commander for showing “disrespect” to the Nablus regiment commander.

Second Scene – El-Itihad Hospital, Nablus

“Anyone knows where El-Itihad hospital is?” Avner the company commander entered the reconnaissance platoon’s tent. We didn’t exactly answer. “Never mind”, said Avner, “You must get there right away with the [military] doctor. We’ve received reports about a gunshot-wounded young man who arrived there, and he might be wanted.”

We descended from our camp overlooking the town, and crossed this town full of horrors. It was early evening and we honked wildly to scare all vehicles off our way. At Jebel Shimali neighborhood on the slopes of Mount Eival, we were greeted with showers of stones and bottles. The large military escort entered the hospital compound with the doctor after a short negotiation. I, wearing a helmet and holding a gun, think about other sick visits at other times and places.

It is the most absolute contradiction – a hospital, the humane antithesis to our guns, helmets and flak jackets (worn in case some patient attacks us). The miserable supper served to the patients afterwards, the Palestinian doctor wearing a nozzle, the wounded man found and interrogated in his bloody bed – only so that we could learn that he was shot by settlers passing through the town, the amazing green eyes of a nurse with flowing black hair, who looked at us with burning hate. I feel an awesome nausea. Unable to hold it back, I throw up and cry outside the hospital walls. During the remainder of this service, each time I looked through the observation binoculars at the slopes of Mount Eival and saw the hospital’s neon lights, I felt a shudder down my spine.

Two days after this visit, our comrade Benny Meissner R.I.P. was killed in the Nablus Qasbah.





Avi Blum



should you want to sign the petition:

http://www.seruv.org.il/civEng.asp



sorry for so much cutnpaste.mr sigalph..did i tell you one bengali gave me a lovely pen--its made of wood that smells really nice..i think he had a crush on me;) do tell what u think of the above

best,

anNy

Reply Romair #460

``Your comments highlight the unfortunate chasm that exists between civilians and military folk in general in the world....``

``One of the worst insults in any military is to call someone a, ``civilian.`` If said seriously, it is considered more condescending than any other kind of abuse. I don`t know whether calling someone a, ``fauji`` is considered an insult in the civilian world. I assume it is not a compliment.``

##There was a time when I could even tolerate the contempt heaped upon us ``civilians``, those overfed, snivelling whiners who talked a lot and did nothing. Can`t say I liked it but it was somewhat reassuring that there was this elite segment of our population that stood proud untempted by a life less ordinary, who stood up to be counted and took danger by the scruff of its neck instead of moping around complaining how bad things were. I cheered from the sidelines when Demi Moore`s character in A Few Good Men said, when questioned by a lawyer why she ``liked them so much`` : ``Because they stand on a wall, and they say nobody`s gonna harm you. Not on my watch``

Can`t say precisely when it all changed. Maybe it was when the CSD officer in charge of processing a cooking oil order in my former company demanded a ``special discount`` to be paid partly in cash and partly in the shape of 15 litre jars that mysteriously vanished from the company warehouse; maybe it was when Tehelka did a deal with them simply by plying senior military officers with hard liquor and soft women-- something they have easy access to, anyway ; maybe it was when conclusive evidence emerged about how armies systematically use rape as wartime strategy, and even occasionally massacre their own in an attempt to garner some brownie points from those same ``civilians`` they purport to abhor. That proved nothing except this hallowed institution is, at the bottom of it, populated by human beings, who are only as good or bad as the society they stem from.

Ever sice the scales fell, my life has been much happier. I can now dismiss them as idiot children who didn`t score enough to make it medical or engineering or the civil services; products of abusive parents whose vengefulness was compelling enough reason to seek a profession that salutes violence and killing; self-aggrandizing testosterone-driven bullies who`ve outlived their usefulness in civil society; and ultimately, self-deluding masochists who have no idea how loudly the ``civilians`` sigh in relief at the thought that there are enough of them idiots rushing to the borders so that the rest of us don`t ever need worry about conscription.

So too-young-to-die people have their eyes gouged out in Kargil, lose limbs to frostbite in Siachen, get dumped across the Bangladesh border in sacks, and all I can think as I sit back sipping my whisky and soda (not subsidised mind you)is, ``Serve `em right; who asked them to enlist anyway?``

So there you have it, from my point of view at least....yup ``fauji`` is an insult. No two ways about it.....

sac:



“You don`t need a lot of brain power at even the highest ranks”

… aren’t promotions based on leadership, military skills, strategic/tactial know-how, aptitude and the like?….and while you don’t have to be an einstein-in-waiting, a certain intelligence/astuteness is req’d….

“The pronouncements of the rest of the lot

like Aslam Beg, KM Arif, Hamid Gul, KM Azhar,

Lodhi, Sawar Khan and countless others are a

living testament to the complete lack of any grey

mattter upstairs.”

…are you deriding these people for lack of intelligence or because they hold viewpoints and think radically different from you?…..there’re a lot of people, even on this board, spouting the most rabid bs….but that doesn’t mean they’re ‘lacking in grey matter’…..

Tahmed, Romair, Shankar, Anybody else

Re Shankar`s Post

In my opinion, we should be grateful to persons such as him - What Pakistan may be or what Pakistan has been, is not the issue - What it is now, where it is now and how it got to be the way it is, are the relevant issues.

Shankar`s post reveals little about Pakistan, but does say a lot about Indians (if Shankar is more right than wrong in describing the attitudes and opinions of most Indian persons he knows) - and the responses by Pakistanis (one rather extreme) say a lot about Pakistanis.

Pakistan is of course, to us, a country of dreams, of all the things we would do and be - a heroic nation, beset by parasites and the faithless - Israelites in Sinai being urged to worship at the altar of the calf - but these are pests more than anything else. However; there is a truth here we must acknowledge, why do those of us who do feel the need to defend Pakistan, feel that need? Pakistanis and Pakistan have not lived up to what they agree is best in them, why should some Indian person? No, this not a time for being defensive rather it is time to persevere, to appreciate this bitter experience fully, to resolve to realize the Pakistan of our vision, even if a very personal vision (every Pakistanis success is Pakistan`s success). Shankar`s post is not about how an Indian sees us, but how we see ourselves. We are in a bad way, yes, we are working ourselves out it, but while we are in bad way, let`s accept it. Actually, it is so much later than we think it is - we are in a great danger, mostly of our own making. We messed up and only we can clean it; no one can disrespect someone who respects himself and is it not true that everyone wants to offer to push a wall that is falling? No hard feelings, just the way it is.

On a related matter - In ancient polities, service to the state was compulsory - Should citizenship in Pakistan be viewed similarly? Should, as a condition of citizenship, Pakistanis we asked to give the nation two years of their lives, after completing secondary school? These two years, after basic training and technical vocational training be spent in a field of endeavor identified by the state? For instance in a literacy corps, or a judicial corps dedicated to bringing ``justice`` and state order and build a common culture? Or a canal maintenance corps or reforestation projects? In return for this service, Pakistanis youth would benefit from the basic and vocational training, they would become acquainted with the real Pakistan(s), they would become productive and confident in their abilities - what nation would not want such as citizens? What kind of a nation fails to rise to it`s own expectations? A chance for us to build the Pakistan, more closer to our vision of it as a moral, open, dynamic, tolerant, united society.

re: fairdinkum

{{Your analysis of “Indian point of view” may represent a minority of Indians living in the West… And although the general impression of a highly evolved, secular, and civilized Indian society (as propagated by Indian govt. and by some at this forum ) may not be true, I doubt if your analysis is generally the view of majority of Indians living in India – recent election losses of BJP are an indicator.}}

bjp`s losses have to do with internal incomptence in running the country, not its stance on pakistani terrorism...no indian govt. will compromise on that...some pakistanis seem to believe that congress will hand them kashmir on a platter...get a reality check...congress ruled india for decades...it didn`t happen then, it will not happen now...it will never happen...not without a nuclear exchange....close to the pakistani border, and likely right over kashmir...

sigalph325

Semantic evasion:

My point was not ``poor`` PLO, but rather to comment on the values that are a foundation for the observation you made. in my opinion, being realistic does not mean disrespecting an adversary to the point of believing the ``demonization`` or ``dehumanizing`` of the adversary, it`s not a smart move, afterall none of parties or circumstances related to the conflict are in stasis.

The ``poor`` PLO, is that also an observation and not a reflection of your thinking on this matter?

Dude

where the hell is all this criticism of the Army coming from???? Goddamn civilian f2ckwits, sitting around on their arses, criticizing the people who are fighting your damn battles.

Yes, certain Army officers may be boorish (mostly infantry types), yes, some are corrupt, and yes some achieve high rank inspite of their capabilities rather than because of them. But, these are people putting their lives on the line,to mantain the structure of your life.

At least as far as Pakistanis are concerned, they should be grateful to the Army coz that`s the only reason your country has survived. The civil types would have sold Paki real estate to the highest bidder and retired to Switzerland.

This also includes the Jamaatis who pretend to be pious but are big haraamis.

Fuzair:

``The language spoken in the villages around Jhajjar is not Punjabi, it is a sort of rustic Hindi/Urdu. ``

Just found this gem. I guess it is a good thing that your family went to Pakistan and therefore had an opportunity to serve at the officer level.

Jhajjar`s primary occupational exports seem to be PT Teachers and Corporals in the Air Force Police. Why Air Force? The reason being the Air Force has 4 Airman selection boards in Haryana (a small state), therefore a disproportionat number of Haryanvis join the Airforce. They are all sent to Air Force police, because of their intellectual capabilities and brute strength.

STUPIDITY & ARROGANCE

Are faujis stupid or not is very subjective. Even more subjective is the discussion whether military training makes one stupid or not. This can never be settled under any amount of discussion. However, there is a deadly combination of stupidity and arrogance which we should discuss. Personally, I dont think that stupidity is a bad thing. Stupid people have as many accomplishments as that of non-stupid people. But it is arrogance, that makes stupidity an unacceptable thing. A stupid and arrogant person is an epitomy of stench-like no other stench. Mr. Pretzelhead George Bush is an example; other example is as follows:

According to a news report in Jang today, the military dictators are ammending (mangling) the Public Representation Act to make it a criminal offence to criticize the referendum. According to the proposed ammendments, anyone criticizing referendum or anyone found `provoking` people to boycott referendum will be punished with 3 years in jail with hard labor. Such person will automatically be disqualified for 25 years to hold any public office. Dear Paksitanis! Mubarak ho this democracy. Mubarak ho! your new progressive modern state. Mubarak! Mubarak!

Shammi:

Reason for my silence is being swamped with work and unable to find enough time to compose a long post. I`ll try to compose a longer one later on today--figure I`ll be able to breathe a bit after threeish or so today!

Very interesting audio article on BBC, regarding feudals in Pakistan; a must hear for all those supporting feudalism:

``Circle of sex, feudals, and exploitation

Feudal lords in parts of Pakistan`s Sindh province have forcibly converted entire villages into brothels.

Wusatullah Khan from Baheshti Patti``

(http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/)

aNNy (shankar) #443: Your comments highlight the unfortunate chasm that exists between civilians and military folk in general in the world, and specifically in Pakistan (where it is much more pronounced due to various Martial Laws).

One of the worst insults in any military is to call someone a, ``civilian.`` If said seriously, it is considered more condescending than any other kind of abuse. I don`t know whether calling someone a, ``fauji`` is considered an insult in the civilian world. I assume it is not a compliment.

When I was making a decision to leave the military, I decided to look for examples in lives of others who had done similar things. I figured the best example was to look at the careers of people who had everything avaiable to them; the British Royal Family, came to mind. They can do anything in their lives. They don`t even have to work.

So what is the career followed by the male members of British royalty. I noticed remarkable similarities in the path followed by these people traditionally:

They go to the elite prep schools of UK. Then they join the military in their twenties, for ten years or so, on average. While in the military, they take on some very intense duties, like fighter flying, special forces etc. Then around thirty, they leave the military, with honorary ranks, and go into private enterprise (for them that is things like sitting on the board of charities, etc.). At that point they learn the ropes of the private sector, govt. beaurecracy, politics, etc. Then they go onto become Ambassadors for their country.

Prince Charles was in the Navy from 71 to 76. Interestingly he received his miltary training with the Air Force. He was a fighter pilot, a commando helicopter pilot, and a ship commander. He now holds honorary ranks of Air Vice Marshall, Rear Admiral and Maj General simultaneously in all three forces.

His brother Andrew made a whole career out of the military. He went to the Royal Naval college. He is a qualified helicopter pilot (fought in Falklands), and member of the British elite commando unit, ``Green Berets,`` as well as a ship commander. He recently retired in his early forties from the Navy.

Edward didn`t make it, because he apparently ran away from one of the academies.

Their sister Anne, was married to two Army Captains, between 1973 and present day.

Their father, Prince Phillip went to the Royal Naval academy, served in the Navy like Andrew, and retired as a Commander at the age of 31.

The list goes on and on.

If Royal family members are willing to give up their lives of luxury to go into military training (which is anything but luxurious), and that too in the toughest units, for years, one would have to think, they feel it develops their character. They could basically go to any university in the world, and go into any profession. Yet every single one toughs it out in the actual British military through their 20s. So much so, that it is now a tradition.

Interestingly most now leave the military by their early to mid thirties.

After having seen both sides of the divide, I am quite sure that this is the best type of career path, if available. There is a reason why this is a Royal tradition. Military training from mid-teens to late twenties is the best form of training. One experiences so much more than what one would in the civilian world. How many 22 year olds in the civilian world are given full control of 10 million dollar fighter aircraft, or the authority to navigate even more expensive ships. How many 22 year old civilians have to command 25 men into combat, with machine guns firing at them? It definitely builds character. How many people learn to face their own deaths, and the deaths of close colleagues at such young ages in the civilian world? What is the worst thing that can happen to a 30 year old on Wall Street? His portfolio could crash; quite a bit less stressful than his airplane crashing. I have yet to face anything even remotely close, to the stressful military tasks I faced, as a civilian.

At the same time, the military can be a narrow path, resulting in a narrow outlook to problems, if one does not get outside exposure. The best way to do this, in my opinion, is to simply leave the military after spending around ten years in it. A thirty year old military man will be ahead of a thirty year old civilian. But a forty year old civilian will be ahead of a forty year old military man who has not taken the trouble to expose himself to areas outside the military.

The above is exactly what the British Royals do. I looked at their examples, going all the way back through generations, and decided to take the jump in my twenties, into the private sector. Very few of my other colleagues had the courage, resources or desire to do so. But the ones who did, as a group, are now completely outperforming the non-military experienced civilian Pakistanis in the US IT sector.

I have never regretted, for a single moment, the chance to spend my teen and twenties in the military, and now my thirties in the private sector. I wouldn`t give up either opportunity for the world. It is like having a chance to live in the USA and Pakistan. A person doing that will always have a broader outlook on life, than if he had only had the opportunity to live in one place, or in one profession.

If you look at US Presidents, you will find nearly all of them have done most of the following:

1) they went to excellent universities 2) they served in the military in their twenties 3) they left the military by their thirties 4) they change professions a great deal 5) they have legal training (many lawyers) 6) they have briefly taught in colleges or universities

Even the ones who did not leave the military, did the above, while they were in the military.

As for your uncles......they probably look at you, and other, ``damn civilians`` and say the same things, that you are saying about them :-)