We, The Muslim Americans

semi:

sacs right, most army men are quite astonishingly stupid...an uncle (who has since become a hot shot in kesc or wapda or someplace) said once when my dad was telling him how what he just said was stupidness beyond the term itself, `yaar we are trained to follow orders and once that stage is over, give orders..we are there to protect you not carry out intellectual coversations..kyoon tang kartae ho..`..some ppl in the airforc (uncles n all..no young ppl..theyre very very ghanda type i hear...the younger lot are popular as er..some very unflattering words) are very intelligent and talk sense but spending 2 hours having dinner with the army uncles is so tiresome its not even funny..they think unn kae moon sae phoolshool nikal rae hain..they view ordinary civilians as kachhra and have this attitude about themselves...the ISI ppl now are another matter- theyre bloody comedies...one unkle in murder and sabotage investigation (i dont think i was supposed to say that.now ill have to die) thinks he`s a stand up comedian...another cracks the most retarded jokes and thinks he`s jim carrey..laughts in such a deranged manner its embarassing

aik general sawaal since we`re tearing apart the poor army and iv always wondered about this, has anyone noticed how most generals are gorgeous hunks and their wives these ugly cows?

Why is Musharraf keen on staying COAS?

Wilson John

On Sunday, President Pervez Musharraf`s office made a rather intriguing statement. Pakistan government`s official spokesperson Major General Rashid Qureshi told The News, one of the most widely read English dailies published from Islamabad, that ``No one from within the armed forces has ever proposed that the president should hand over the office of the COAS to someone else while he remains president``. The immediate cause of this clarification was reports emanating from Washington about certain key Generals requesting Musharraf to appoint another Chief of Army Staff (COAS) in his place once he assumed the office of the President after the referendum scheduled to be held in May.

The Generals had two reasons to make such a request. First, they argued, the security situation facing the country was quite complex warranting full attention from the Army chief. India, on the one side, was pressing, and pressing hard, to force Pakistan to give up its Kashmir policy. On the other hand, western powers led by the United States were breathing down with impossible demands. In such trying times, they felt, it was essential for the armed forces to be led by a full-time COAS and not a part-time General cum President.











Second is the 1973 Constitution that accords the President with the status of the Supreme Commander of the armed forces, Like in India, the COAS in Pakistan, at least on paper, functions under the President. The very process of holding elections would, as a fait accompli, restore the Constitution and if the President were to retain the post of the COAS, there were bound to be functional incongruities. It would be in a way unconstitutional.

The General, however, is not enamoured by these legal nuances. He is more concerned about his survival. That is why he and his cronies have been arguing that there was nothing illegal in holding two posts since both former premiers, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharief,also held two posts-they remained party presidents throughout their tenure as Prime Ministers. This argument is untenable for the simple reason that a COAS cannot be equated with that of a president of a political party in a country where the Army has always been the First Political Party and quite often the only political party. It is not exactly difficult to see why President Musharraf would not like to give up being called the General.

From the day Pakistan was carved out of India on religious grounds, it was the Army that dictated its destiny. It is an all-powerful organisation that brooks no dissent and offers no concessions to those not in uniform. In fact, the Army always followed a diametrically opposite view of Pakistan`s future than its founding father Qaid-e-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah who wanted the country to follow more of a democratic pattern of governance as opposed to a dictatorial policy. The Army never displayed any desire to give in to civilian authority as in India where the Army functioned strictly under a civilian hierarchy. Thus the Pakistan Army ran a parallel government dictating the country`s foreign and military policies at gunpoint. It was the Army that created the Inter Services Intelligence (ISI), a shadowy organisation of zealots in uniform created with the sole objective of perpetrating a pan-Islamic dream of carving an empire of their own stretching from Middle East to South East Asia. So powerful and resourceful has been this organisation that even Pak analysts call it a State within a State, a rogue State to be precise, often following an aimless and destructive path of its own. The ISI, in all its aspects, is an extension of the Army but an autonomous extension that has grown, over the years, powerful enough to topple even the Generals and Prime Ministers. General Musharraf is not unenlightened about the power of the ISI and the Army.

He knows for sure that the Chief of Army Staff not only controls the armed forces that have often dictated the destiny of his nation but also the ISI, the two organisations that would have to be essentially on his side if he were to rule Pakistan for a long, long time. He is very clear in his mind about this. It would be naïve to believe that Musharraf was taking such enormous risks and pain to be in the presidential palace for merely five years. In fact, if the May referendum were to give him the results as per his expectation, he would be eager to pin another star on his lapel and call himself Field Marshal. He has planned it meticulously and is going about achieving the targets quite assiduously. In October 1999, he overthrew Nawaz Sharief in a blood-less coup and became a Chief Executive. He did not call himself a President. This is important. He was gauging the domestic and international mood. Like a reconnaissance mission. He was testing waters. He promptly shut down all Constitutional machinery, locked up Sharief and charged him with all kinds of fantastic crimes including not allowing the General`s plane to land in Karachi, whipped the media into subjugation, arm-twisted the Supreme Court into legitimising him (of course the Chief Justice who ruled in favour of the General was suitably awarded two years later by being appointed as the Chief Election Commissioner), subverted the bureaucracy by appointing his cronies and friends as heads of key departments and openly flirted with religious leaders (who also ran terror schools and training camps) before anointing himself as the President. He could not have done any one of them if he was not the COAS. The Army stood by him. Those who didn`t, he removed them ruthlessly, including Lt General Mohammad Aziz who led the coup and kept the seat hot for him to return from playing golf in Colombo.

While the world thought September 11 would undo Musharraf`s game plan, the General had a few other surprises up his sleeve. When the Americans forced him to lend them his air bases and intelligence support to smoke out the Taliban from the neighbouring Afghanistan, Musharraf wrote out some soul-stirring speeches and found a convenient way to ease out all those Generals who could have posed a threat to him in future. Some of the jihadi Generals were kicked up, promoted to higher but ineffective positions; others were forced to take voluntary retirement. The crackdown on religious extremist groups yielded good results-he treated them with respect housing them in state-run guest houses instead of prison and once they were let off, these religious leaders who ran madrasas and terror training camps from the same compound became his ardent supporters. Besides, he harvested tonnes of dollars and immeasurable respect from the West for his Herculean efforts in being an important partner in the US-led Coalition Against Terrorism.

So now that he has decided to hold a referendum to become a full-fledged President for five years, there is no reason why he would like to let go off one position that is the key to his ascendancy. By virtue of being the COAS, he is today the Chief Executive, the Chairman, National Security Council and the President. The Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, the Director General of ISI, the Director General of Military Intelligence, the Governors, the heads of Railway, the Post and Telegraph and countless other key departments all report to him. Without the four stars, he would be just another figure-head who could be dumped into a dungeon of anonymity and shame, on an anonymous evening, by another young, ambitious and anonymous General like him.

re roohi 435

``There are

hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, ...``

With all due respect to Gandhiji, he probably didn`t live amongst or around Arabs too much. Indeed there are `hundreds of ways`, but each of them is predicated on the premise that you`re negotiating from a position of utter and unchallengeable strength. The Arab will negotiate in good faith only when he is convinced that the alternative is a serious beating. Recall, it took four defeats to bring Egypt and Jordan to negotiate and five for the PLO. Syria needs another drubbing to bring it over; Lebanon will follow suit immediately.

fawad #425: Fuzair has given most of the answers.

Here is my addition to the best of my knowledge.

My primary area of expertise is the Air Force, but I

do have some knowledge about the other forces

as well, since we worked and trained together

quite a bit.

Everything in the Pakistan military is modeled after

its parent British institutions, or its grandparent

British institutions. In between there have been

additions made due to Pakistan`s close

cooperation with the US. And some more

additions made due to Pakistan`s tradition

linkages with Muslim history.

The net results, in the training arena, are actually

quite good. So Kakul is a British model with

companies named Tipu (Sultan) and Khalid (bin-

Waleed), and the cadets say, ``Gentleman

Bismillah`` and toast on dining nights with Rooh

Afza. The PAF wears British uniforms with British

traditions, but most its air combat tactics are along

US lines, and squadron mottos contain Iqbal`s

verses (all the Shaheen emphasis from Iqbal

really turned out quite good for the PAF) and

verses from the Quran.

All Pakistani military branches are poorly funded if

you look at the standard of living of the men and

officers below the rank of General, as well as with

respect to the gigantic threat from India. They are

highly funded if you look at their % budget with

respect to the Pakistan`s total budget. Nearly all

that budget is spent on equipment, and some to

pamper the Generals.

The PAF actually gets close to 1/3rd of the total

military budget (which is around 2.8 billion dollars/

year, while India`s has now crossed 15 billion

dollars/year). One PAF aircraft costs more to fly

than a whole Army unit costs to run (my guess).

Pakistan`s military is basically geared towards

countering a ground attack from India. The Air

Force is set up to provide Air Support to the Army.

The Navy doesn`t really have much of a role in

Pakistan`s defence plans. Hence it is not too

significant.

Having said that, if I were born again, I would join

the Pakistan Navy. They have the best facilities, the

best resources and by far the best lifestyle of any

branch of the Pakistan military. They are

affectionately known as the Civil Services of the

Pakistan military. They live only in the best parts of

Karachi and Islamabad, and one can chose to be

a mariner, pilot or ground special forces person in

the Navy. And they rarely have to risk their lives.

Many of the Naval officers have side businesses in

Karachi, and some make a good bonus

smuggling colognes and perfumes into Karachi,

when their ships cruise to distant lands.

The ISI must be the most misunderstood

organization in Pakistan. I have friends who spent

some time in it, yet even I don`t know its details. I

am surprised when people who have had nothing

to do with the military claim to know it inside and

out. Most of that info is probably hearsay.

What I do know is that nearly 90% of the staff of the

ISI are serving military men. And they are only

assigned to the ISI for one brief tour of 2 to 3 years

in their whole military career. ISI is not a career by

itself. So no one wants to stay in it for more than a

couple of years. Everyone goes in for a little while

than back to their regiments (including the head of

the ISI). Its head is the only Lt. Gen. in the military

who is appointed directly by the Prime Minister and

who reports directly to the Prime Minsiter.

Hence the ISI, its traditions etc., cannot be

differentiated from the rest of the military. So I am a

bit surprised when people claim that the ISI is an

idependent organization, filled with religious

fanatics, in comparison to the military. How is that

possible when it consists of rotational

assignments, for brief periods, of regular military

officers? Either both the ISI and its parent

organization (the military) are both filled with

fanatics or both aren`t.

I don`t know how deeply the ISI is involved in

Pakistan`s internal political affairs. Only God

knows. But if it is as deeply involved as rumored,

than one has to say that the Prime Minister/CMLA

etc. of that time orders it to be deeply involved. The

serving govts. would thus be using it to get

information about their political opponents and

parties. That is why the serving Prime Ministers

always appoint their own man as its head.

In any case, it is not a career appointment for any

military officer. Most of the people I know who

opted to spend a couple of years in it, were either

having some medical problems due to which they

could not fly or serve in battle ready units for a few

years, or because they wanted to live in Islamabad

for a while.

The ISI is overly feared in India however, for some

reason. Even though, it probably only has a fraction

of the budget allocated to India`s RAW. Legend

has it that Indian mothers tell their little kids if they

don`t go to sleep on time, the ISI will come and get

them. The ISI is also responsible for Lagaan not

winning an Oscar, Advani`s heartburn, and the bad

dancing abilities of Sanjay Dutt (till last count)..... <

BR>

Hope that answers your questions.....

re semipreciousme #411:

Less than 1% of the Pakistani cadets make it to

the rank of Generals. Infact not more than 6% of

the ranks in the Pakistani Army are over the rank of

Lt. Col. the highest position one can attain if one is

not a major dud(no pun intended) and passes a

certain number of exams and earns less than a

few reprimands. You don`t need a lot of brain

power at even the highest ranks. The most

intellectual of recent Pakistani Generals, Jehangir

Karamat didn`t have the segacity to defend the

Supreme court judges when asked by the Chief

Justice to do so and also refused to show any

respect to BB the democratically elected leader at

the time. The pronouncements of the rest of the lot

like Aslam Beg, KM Arif, Hamid Gul, KM Azhar,

Lodhi, Sawar Khan and countless others are a

living testament to the complete lack of any grey

mattter upstairs.

Different institutions need different types of the

`company` man. The qualities Chrysler would look

for would be entirely different from what a Mckinsey

or Goldman Sachs looks for. Even within the

different departments in those two elite

companies, the quality of people would vary

greatly. Institutions are as much interested in

continuity as they are with brains. A good counter-

example would be Enron. The company was well

known for hiring some of the smartest people

around. Their demise is a good lesson in terms of

looking at other qualities besides intelligence to

keep the companies going.

A man recently filed suit in the state of Connecticut

because he was denied the chance to serve as a

cop in the city of New London. The reason the city

refused to hire him was because the man scored

too high on their intelligence exam administered

by some outside firm. The city chief explained that

people with extremely high intelligence got bored

very quickly with the relative mundane duties of the

local cop and moved on to other things within a

year or so. The man in question on the other hand

complained that he was highly motivated and

really wanted the job. Ultimately he won his case

but I am sure in a year or so the real test will come

and we`ll find out whether he stays there or not.<

BR>

ROmair:

You need to frame the two statements and put it on

your desk. It`d go well with the other shields you

collected during your tour of duty all over

Pakland.......

later

-sac

re asif n

``So now the Muslims are Chosen``

Reminds me of what Episcopalians often call the

Presbyterians `the frozen chosen`.

`` and on the basis of OUR holy book we claim the

land of Palestine as it was taken by Hazrat Umar

and he declared it a waqf till qayaamat``

Right `OUR` holy book which may or may not mean

anything to anybody else. With all due respect to

HAzrat Umar (RA), he was not exactly the

gentleman to declare title to land till the end of

Life.

`` and no one can take it away from the Muslims

who are now its rightful heirs``

Have you been in a coma since General Allenby

kicked out the wretched Ottomans in 1918?
<

p>

``.. being the true followers of the Prophets unlike

the yehud who as Allah tells us in the Qur`an killed

the prophets sent to them``

The anti-semitism that fanned the Christian right`s

insistence that Jews murdered Jesus.

Asif, I`ll give you this, that you`re sometimes the

most erudite and eloquent spokesman of genteel

prejudice.

Here is one line for you, since you always quote

scoundrels like Maudidi and Ghazali, from a close

confidante of Quaid-e-Azam and a Prime Minister

of Pakistan:

``Israel has come to stay``- H S Suhrawardy

re fuzair

``why weren`t the Boers entitled to return to the

southern part of it? Or the English to Kenya?``



You tell me since YOU were the one who started

this line of comparing white colonists in Africa with

the Jewish return to their ancient homeland(which

is historical not just Biblical).

``...any other Muslim government`s, your`s

included``

I didn`t know that G W Bush had become Muslim,

Knew it, he has had a rather marked pro-

Palestinian stance lately :)

the middle is basically attacked by both

extremes.

Weber suggests two kinds of ethics - The ethics of

the ultimate ends and the ethics of responsibility.

For the adherents of the ethics of the ultimate end,

no argument, no cost, will help them see the light -

their focus is on the ultimate ends and whatever it

takes is justified -for the ethics of respons- The

ethics of the ultimate ends and the ethics of

responsibility. For the adherents of the ethics of

the ultimate end, no argument, no cost, will help

them see the light - their focus is on the ultimate

ends and whatever it takes is justified -for the

ethics of responss the middle is basically attacked

by both extremes.

Weber suggests two kinds of ethics - The ethics of

the ultimate ends and the ethics of responsibility.

For the adherents of the ethics of the ultimate end,

no argument, no cost, will help them see th

Fuzair etc.

Found this essay by Gandhi written in 1938 about

Palestine - relevant even today ...

``I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they

had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting

what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable

encroachment upon their country. But according to

the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing

can be said against the Arab resistance in the face

of overwhelming odds. ``

THE JEWS IN PALESTINE 1938

By Mahatma Gandhi

(Mohandas Kirmachand Gandhi)



Several letters have been received by me asking

me to declare my views about the Arab-Jew

question in Palestine and the persecution of the

Jews in Germany. It is not without hesitation that I

venture to offer my views on this very difficult

question.

My sympathies are all with the Jews. I have known

them intimately in South Africa. Some of them

became lifelong companions. Through these

friends I came to learn much of their age long

persecution. They have been the untouchables of

Christianity. The parallel between their treatment

by Christians and the treatment of untouchables by

Hindus is very close. Religious sanction has been

invoked in both cases for the justification of the

inhuman treatment meted out to them. Apart from

the friendships, therefore, there is the more

common universal reason for my sympathy for the

Jews.

But my sympathy does not blind me to the

requirements of justice. The cry for the national

home for the Jews does not make much appeal to

me. The sanction for it is sought in the Bible and

the tenacity with which the Jews have hankered

after return to Palestine. Why should they not, like

other peoples of the earth, make that country their

home where they are born and where they earn

their livelihood?

Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense

that England belongs to the English or France to

the French. It is wrong and inhuman to impose the

Jews on the Arabs. What is going on in Palestine

today cannot be justified by any moral code of

conduct. The mandates have no sanction but that

of the last war. Surely it would be a crime against

humanity to reduce the proud Arabs so that

Palestine can be restored to the Jews partly or

wholly as their national home.

The nobler course would be to insist on a just

treatment of the Jews wherever they are born and

bred. The Jews born in France are French in

precisely the same sense that Christians born in

France are French. If the Jews have no home but

Palestine, will they relish the idea of being forced

to leave the other parts of the world in which they

are settled? Or do they want a double home where

they can remain at will? This cry for the national

home affords a colourable justification for the

German expulsion of the Jews. But the German

persecution of the Jews seems to have no parallel

in history. The tyrants of old never went so mad as

Hitler seems to have gone. And he is doing it with

religious zeal. For, he is propounding a new

religion of exclusive and militant nationalism in the

name of which any inhumanity becomes an act of

humanity to be rewarded here and hereafter. The

crime of an obviously mad but intrepid youth is

being visited upon his whole race with

unbelievable ferocity. If there ever could be a

justifiable war in the name of and for humanity, a

war against Germany to prevent the wanton

persecution of a whole race, would be completely

justified. But I do not believe in any war. A

discussion of the pros and cons of such a war is,

therefore, outside my horizon or province.

But if there can be no war against Germany, even

for such a crime as is being committed against the

Jews, surely there can be no alliance with

Germany. How can there be alliance between a

nation which claims to stand for justice and

democracy and one which is the declared enemy

of both? Or is England drifting towards armed

dictatorship and all it means?

Germany is showing to the world how efficiently

violence can be worked when it is not hampered

by any hypocrisy or weakness masquerading as

humanitarianism. It is also showing how hideous,

terrible and terrifying it looks in its nakedness. <

BR>

Can the Jews resist this organized and

shameless persecution? Is there a way to

preserve their self-respect, and not to feel

helpless, neglected and forlorn? I submit there is.

No person who has faith in a living God need feel

helpless or forlorn. Jehovah of the Jews is a God

more personal than the God of the Christians, the

Mussalmans or the Hindus, though as a matter of

fact, in essence, He is common to all and one

without a second and beyond description. But as

the Jews attribute personality to God and believe

that He rules every action of theirs, they ought not

to feel helpless. If I were a Jew and were born in

Germany and earned my livelihood there, I would

claim Germany as my home even as the tallest

gentile German might, and challenge him to shoot

me or cast me in the dungeon; I would refuse to be

expelled or to submit to discriminating treatment.

And for doing this I should not wait for the fellow

Jews to join me in civil resistance, but would have

confidence that in the end the rest were bound to

follow my example....

... And now a word to the Jews in Palestine. I have

no doubt that they are going about it in the wrong

way. The Palestine of the Biblical conception is not

a geographical tract. It is in their hearts. But if they

must look to the Palestine of geography as their

national home, it is wrong to enter it under the

shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot

be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the

bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the

goodwill of the Arabs. They should seek to convert

the Arab heart.

The same God rules the Arab heart who rules the

Jewish heart... They will find the world opinion in

their favour in their religious aspiration. There are

hundreds of ways of reasoning with the Arabs, if

they will only discard the help of the British

bayonet. As it is, they are co-sharers with the

British in despoiling a people who have done no

wrong to them.

I am not defending the Arab excesses. I wish they

had chosen the way of non-violence in resisting

what they rightly regarded as an unwarrantable

encroachment upon their country. But according to

the accepted canons of right and wrong, nothing

can be said against the Arab resistance in the face

of overwhelming odds.

Let the Jews who claim to be the chosen race

prove their title by choosing the way of non-

violence for vindicating their position on earth.

Every country is their home, including Palestine,

not by aggression but by loving service. A Jewish

friend has sent me a book called The Jewish

Contribution to Civilization by Cecil Roth. It gives a

record of what the Jews have done to enrich the

world`s literature, art, music, drama, science,

medicine, agriculture, etc.

Given the will, the Jew can refuse to be treated as

the outcast of the West, to be despised or

patronized. He can command the attention and

respect of the world by being the chosen creation

of God, instead of sinking to the brute who is

forsaken by God. They can add to their many

contributions the surpassing contribution of non-

violent action.

Harijan, 26-11-1938.

[excerpted from M.K. Gandhi, My Non-Violence.

Edited by Sailesh Kumar Bandopadhaya

(Ahmedabad: Navajivan Publishing House, 1960)

oops CID is now CIA

Fuzair

I think MI is not a title by itself-it is called FIU -Field Investigation Unit.

Some other institutions are:

MODC - responsible for security of general military installations. I dont remember what this acronym stands for.

MP - Military Police-they have their own investigation unit; sometimes report to FIU. Navy and Airforce have their own police. NP and AFP.

Coast Guards and Rangers - have their own reconaissance units. They are also regularly involved in civilian affairs.

Police has two kind of detectives. regular detectives come from regular police. The other more sophisticated branch is CID - Criminal Investigation Department.

Re: Fawad

Romair probably has more accurate data than I do but heres some info in the meantime. Kakul was patterned on IMA Dehra Dun which was itself patterned on Sandhurst but with some significant changes. Until the 1965 War, Kakul was very pukka and until well into the 1950s had a British CO. The ISI is not Military Intelligence although I believe most of its officers are from the Army. The PAF and PN are not starved for funds, especially not the PAF (planes are expensive!), since they probably get more rupees per man than does the Army, its just that they are so much smaller than the Army that they, especially the Navy, tend to be well below the horizon in terms of visibility.

Hmmmmm. Lets see, how many ``intelligence agencies`` are there in Pakistan? Probably about 20ish or so. My mamoo once told me that there were well over a dozen different sets of Pakistani spooks operating in Landi Kotal, where he was posted once. I didn`t believe him and he rattled them off for me. At the time he was in the SIB (Special Investigation Branch of the Military Police) so that was one. Then there was:

ISI
MI
Air Intelligence
Naval Intelligence (don`t ask me what they were doing there; he thought they were there to keep tabs on the Army and Air Force spooks)
Customs Intelligence
FIA
IB
Army`s Field Investigation Unit
CIA (Pakistani, not US: Criminial Investigation Agency)
Frontier Corp`s intelligence people (not MI)
Frontier Constabulary`s intelligence people
Anti Narcotics Force intelligence
Coast Guard Intelligence (he swore they were there; looking for smugglers?)

And I don`t know who else. There are probably a few more that I don`t remember.

MI`s job is supposed to be only military intelligence while the ISI is supposed to function more as our CIA. Until Bhutto`s days, the ISI used to be a complete backwater, a graveyard of incompetents but he and then Zia lavished funds on it and gave it a mission. The rest is history....

Regards.

MAASI KAANI # 421

There is an anecdote in Punjab, which describes the effect of Sheereen Labbi and Sheereen bayani of people, sugar lips. It goes something like this:

``Once upon a time there lived an old woman outside a village, who happened to be blind from one eye. Once a man, who was from a nearby village, happened to come to this village, in the middle of a hot summer afternoon.

The man yelled from a distance `` Maasi Kaani! Maasi Kaani! Paani Pilaa`` (Blind woman! Blind Woman! Give me water).

Old woman replied ``Baytaa tumharay labooN ki sheereeni par sadqay jaooN, tujhe to maiN Sharbat pilaoN gee`` (Son! Sugar Lips! You are such a sweet talker, I will give you sweet juice (instead of water))

shammi

So is there a parallel between israel-Paletinian migration and Indo-Pak migration or not? Your emotional outbursts take the conversation elsewhere.

Please read the draft of Cabinet Mission Plan, to which both big players ML and Congress agreed to. What happened after that, and how this plan was executed, with shameless oversight by British, is a differnt story. Mentioning what happened afterwards is being wise after the fact. There is no romantic connotations attached to migration in 1947 by anyone. It was the most painful experience that people in this region have ever suffered.

Shammi #420: ``most of the baby boomers in the cabinet suffered from the Vietnam draft.``

Could you point out exactly which ones suffered from the draft and were forced into the military, and which ones voluntarily joined the military? I was unable to find this info.

The debate was not on why people join the military. It was over the following two points:

``Military training can be the most debilitating illness known to man.``

``This makes good soldiers but terrible negotiators and politicians,``

Even if we give your argument the benefit of doubt, and assume every single one of George Bush`s cabinet was forced into the mlitary due to the Vietnam war (including the one`s who joined before the war started, like Powell and Rumsfeld, etc.), the fact remains they still ended up making it to the top. As did their predecessors in politics, who died before the Vietnam war even started. Apparently, their military training did not make them debilitatingly ill, nor did it make them terrible negotiators and politicians.

Every single President before the current Bush, wasn`t effected by the Vietnam war. Clinton was the first President from the Vietnam War times. Yet 11 out of the last 12 were in the military. They seemed to do alright, i.e. no illness, pretty good political skills. And every single one of them considers their military service an asset in the political arena, something to be proud of, and uses it as a positive in their campaign resumes. Why would they do that, if it was actually a negative?

Fuzair #401: Regarding Middle East: Very nicely stated and argued, I must say.....