We, The Muslim Americans

The self haters and the dicatators on Chowk are on full parade - all their self hatred is projected on Islam, on religion itself - Great, good for you. Lets see what your new names are?, WHat are your daughters name, great guru of self hating Niggers, that`s right hamidm, what are your daughters new names? What`s your new ``American`` name? (hypocrite?)

Braodway not Tasbee, Block part not sunday school - as if these are the only choices - it is matter of balance, Broadway and Tasbee and Block party and Sunday school need not be exclusive.

No Mirpuri or Lalukheti, who died and left you to make decisions and choices on behalf of other peoples? Your claim to conscience suffers when you insist on projecting your ``feelings``, instead of ``reasoning`` real problems. Real problems with the American Muslim community will not disappear or be solved if one were not a Muslim - as a matter of fact, probelms do not disappear or become solved by running away from them - the ethics and morality inherent in being a Muslim, will assist you in confronting your problems.

How can one be an American Muslim or American martian, without understanding that freedom means questioning, criticism but also restraint and responsibility - no government or cultural movement can effect your conscience, ethics and morality, provided you have an understanding of these.

I just watched the Zee Film Awards. The movie, ``Gaddar`` (the anti-Pakistan movie) was heavily nominated, and won a lot of awards. Some Indian performers who acted in Gaddar, even came on stage and openly, emotionally, and seriously yelled obscenities at Pakistan (like ``Pakistanio baaz aa jao``, etc.) , and received thunderous applause from the audience, which consisted of the artistic and literary lights of India. If India`s artsy fartsy types have reached this stage, then I am afraid, the rest of India must be even at a higher state of hatred against Pakistan.

All I can say is that Pakistani artsry fartsy types still (perhaps naively) write articles about, ``building bridges.`` And most Pakistanis, like myself still (perhaps naively) watch Zee TV and its film awards, hoping that perhaps India`s artists have not reached this level of hatred, while the rest of India may have.

I have never seen any Pakistani award show in which any hate slogan was raised against India by any Pakistani artist. What to talk about a thunderous applause. Maybe Pakistanis are on the right track now, and Indians have really jumped on the VHP bandwagon wholehearteldly (even the Asha Bohsle types). Who knows?

But the Zee Film awards did remind me of a passage I read in an interesting book by Eric Margolis (the famous journalist in Canada who covers South Asia and Central Asia):

``I have seen human hatred expressed in many places over the decades, from the Mideast to Africa and Asia. Growing up in New York, and later living in the Mideast, I was steeped in the bitter struggle between Jews and Arabs. I had experienced the mindless, primitive tribal hatred between Greeks and Turks, Armenians and Turks, Koreans and Japenese. I had seen the heaps of bodies caused by the racial hatred between black and white Africans, or between Bantu Africans and non-Negroid Somalis, Ethopians, and Turks.

But no hatred I have even encountered, save that held by Serbs and Greeks for Muslims, equaled the vitriolic detestation between Indians and Pakistanis, two related peoples who to most outsiders are virtually indistinguishable from one another. The fierciest from of hatred, it seems, is that between brothers and cousins. (Margolis, p. 153: War at the top of the World)

I wonder how long this hatred will take to reach the Indians and Pakistanis of the USA. I never thought it would reach the artists of India. But it definitely has reached them. I hope it never reaches these levels in the artistic circles of Pakistan.

Interesting comments from Larry King`s interview with Marrianne Pearl (an amazing lady). A good read for all those Pakistanis who for some reason have become apologists for Pakistan (like Musharraf), and are reluctant to support people in Pakistan who are finally talking some sense. Full interview at http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/19/lkl.00.html

``KING: How did President Musharraf strike you?

PEARL: President Musharraf struck me as somebody courageous. I think he`s sincerely trying to get rid of terrorists. He`s also somebody who is in a very difficult position in his own country.

KING: Boy, is he.

PEARL: Yes, he is. And even in, you know, his personal safety and everything, so it`s a very difficult situation. So he struck me as someone very good for Pakistan, but someone also who needs help. They cannot be left alone, again, like the police.

.....KING: Do you ever think why did they do this? I mean, when you ask yourself the question. You know he wasn`t with the CIA. Why did they do this, do you think?

PEARL: I think they did it because they`re launching some kind of campaign, you know. They did it for different reasons. But one is political, you know, put an obstacle to Musharraf`s alliance with Western countries and crack down on terrorism......

KING: You tell me you`re going to go back to Karachi.

PEARL: I will go back, yes. Eventually, I will go back.

KING: Don`t you have very sad memories? Mixed?

PEARL: I have mixed, yes, because, as I told you, I would be keen on seeing again those people that have really helped me through this whole ordeal. They`re Pakistani. So it`s not a matter of...

KING: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and you have a special tie to this detective.

PEARL: Yes, I have -- and they`re great human beings. I mean, he is one of the most astonishing person that I`ve met in the last year really, this person and others that I met there. So, you know, if you ask me what is Pakistan for me, it`s first and foremost these people who have had so much respect for me and so much commitment in trying to find Danny. So just like (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the person that just called, even these terrorists haven`t succeeded in making me hate Pakistan or making me hate Muslims. In no way have they achieved their goal.`` (Larry King Live)

Reply #: 20 temporal, Reply #: 24 anNy, Reply #: 36 AAmir, Reply #: 45 ali1

``What motivates a person to do that to himself?``

Temporal you said […of course the ‘momin’ calls it ‘eemaan’…and lesser mortals like me sometime wonder if it is all ‘faith’ that motivates them or hopelessness is a motivating factor...and to what degree…]

There are Christian Palestenians amongst them who have the same Faith. I however don`t know for certain if any of the Suicide Bombers were Christian. I suspect there were plenty as they all have the same Arabic names. The Faith in Palestine transcends Eeman of Muslim Faith; so as you suggest, the hopelessness may be the prime motivating factor, and not the Muslim Faith. The main Palestenian spokeswoman (I forget her name because she has been sidelined) with any credibility in the world forums is a Christian who has been silenced now as she states the truth without religious overtones .. much too good for the Palestenian cause as she takes out the religious divide, while in order to keep Palestenians enslaved it`s important to place the bogeyman of Islam in the front. Arafaat`s wife is Christian, So is Tariq Aziz the Iraqi Foreign Minister but Iraq is another story. All that is kept in the background as the Islamic bogeyman is useful.

If it`s known Islam and Christianity are actually the same with Islam being the last version of the same Faith (Mono-Diety of Abraham), that changes the whole scenario. Much too dangerous for the punks.

Thus, my friend Temporal, the battle is over the Land, not over Islamic Faith. As Leila Khalid (the great hijacker of 60`s) had said ``I long for the oranges of Palestine``.

When Israeli tanks rolled into Bethlehem, profoundly Christian USA and not so profoundly Christian European Union forgot that was where Jesus Christ was born and that`s what their Christmas celebration is all about. That`s the seat of Palestenian territory even now and they have preserved the sanctity of Christmas. No one in the media thought the Israelis were desecrating Jesus. Not a single voice spoke while Bethlehem was tank shelled and school children murdered in cold blood in Bethlehem. What happened to all of the Churches in USA who pray to Bethlehem every Sunday ? Why didn`t they say anything at all ? Looks like they have forgotten Jesus in their enemity to Islam while the Pastors pray to him daily on TV. The Palestenian Christians and Muslims are still preserving Jesus`s sanctity for them anyway.

If there were tanks rolling into Mecca, regardless of whose tanks they were, there would be rivers of blood. Didn`t happen for Bethlehem. Therefore my conclusion that Bethlehem and Jesus are forgotten by the Western Christians in blind support for the money and influence of the two known tribes of Israel who are damned by God. That is the state of Israel. It`s true when Palestenians say they`re not fighting for the West Bank, they`re fighting for elimination of the State of Israel, on the Holy land which includes roots of Muslim, Christian and Jewish Faith. Israel must understand that or it will eventually perish. As you have said ``but how can they factor this intangible…the willingness to gamble away life…the kamikaze factor…"

anNy, you said [`and while i do blame them (human life needs to be respected, yours or anothers), i totally understand where theyre coming from`]

Your blame is well founded as people as you and I look at life from the perspective of well-sheltered, prosperous, successful human beings. You also rightly said they were too much into themselves. I have been closely associated with Palestenians in the University who got the same degrees as myself, but left suddenly to fight in Beirut and never came back. They`re all probably dead. They never told me the reason why they were going in the first place. They had cushy jobs waiting for them.

I`m sure your Palestenian Christian GF would be able to tell you much more than I ever could. There are 3 Palestenians for each Israeli killed since the Intifada began. Make your own judgements.

Ali1. Thanks for the link. Very painful reading. Yes that`s exactly how suicide bombers are made .. after Gujrat India will have to face the suicide bombers, a phenomenon it is ill equipped and uninformed to deal with.

Rgds

Zeemax

Re: Bina #66

I don`t think I am letting my imagination getting the better of me. Well let me indulge myself further into a hypothetical survey. Lets list all the landholdings by size of squares per family per province, then list all the industry per family per province ( implying diversified portfolios of these chums) and just for fun list of political and commercial activity per family per province, and then cross link these to see if you get a pattern. I am willing to bet that it would make for an interesting study. If for example Womens` Humdard Syeda Abida Hussain, humaree Chaandi has a 10% stake in her family`s zameen comapred to her sibblings don`t consider this as small potato, aggregate that with here siblings` holdings, link `em up with the industry they hold, packages, add to that, the political infulence over the banking industry and the corers of unsecured loans, a recent non-performing portfolios with CBR may highlight that and by the time you are done you may reconsider your assertion that ``do this and we will starve`` may be off by at least 50 million at present.

Also, Politics ain`t cheap, but a little introspection about the power base of politics still lies with landholders or their alliance with my fav ``like minded`` lord of the manors. I really would have a hard time accepting that Bhuttos, legharis, Bazinjos, jamalis, khans, chaudrys and what-have-you just till 1/2 an acre next to their 5 squar havelis and are merely getting by...:-). sure the inherrant collusion with the Sarkari Ufssar does help, no body will now that Chaury Saab just got together with the urban developement ufssar and out came a developement scheme on a certain non perfroming agriculture area of land, unbeknown to anybody and anyone which Chaury Saab happened either aquire recently or own, and that stupid Aloo ka khait worth mere thousands per kanal has just gotten appreciated Lakhs per marla and Chaury Saab gave a statment that Fauj is trying to turn the country into a secular mess on the behest of the jewish lobby...:-)d

Sure, the industry may be stable, and god forbid efficient, but I suspect the ownership stays at the same place. Also, Bina, I didn`t suggest Nationalization...did I? If Butto Saab can get up and stick it up to every businessman cuz Bhutto Saab had zameens in Larkana why can`t Mushy with all these 5 million active KukkaRrz doing left...rat...left...rat, seriously consider ``invading`` these feudals...who is to stop him, I mean they dicked around with the Balouch tribes and there is no mention of that in our Pakistan Studies Kittaab..., Yaye bhee hum deny kar dain gaye...:-) Hey if you didn`t read it in the holy Pakistan Studies Syllabus, it never happened...:-), so why in the world he Mush Man needs polictical ratification from the likes of Ijaz-ul-haq and PML (Q) or whomever? that`s where it gets just ludicrous and silly..:-)...you know ``chottee qaoum, ghareeb mulk, chotta dimagh...never think big...:-)``

Yes per your assertion the mile long surnames are just getting by...and syed Baber Ali shah waits around with his Khandani Zameenon kay titles wanting to pledge as collateral outside Habib Bank...right! why not...:-) Have you ever tried getting a puny small little loan as an enterprenuer? Awarding Contracts or industries or Banks to your friends is not ``Free Market Economy or Enterprise``

You say, ``Today Pakistan`s people do not lack for food but if you throw all its major food production systems into turmoil I can assure you we will be another Ethiopia within a year.``

Now that is just plain silly!!!...:-) LOL...I don`t even want to contest that. You don`t mean the long lines outside KFC or Mcdonalds do ya...? where there is plenty...:-) Haye...Bibi, people are literally selling their childern cuz they can`t feed them...what planet do you live on?

In a simple way what I was referring to, was, that the resources are concentrated with only the privileged few and we know who they are...and that is not fair...it is cruel and criminal, without a level playing field or equal opportunity this farce would continue as a tasteless joke. And no I am not saying that take away that Murabba and give it to this unpaRh mazara...or give that Phacktree to the mazdoor, or just dole that loan out to Syed hafizurehman BA instead of Ghulam Ishaq`s son-in-law...this should give anyone some idea how much freak`n work needs to be done...I think even the best intended fair markets would fail since we as pakistanis with low literacy and lower skills and no experience would do a grand job of mucking. So, the god forsaken free market and electorate or democracy is not in the remote horizon, we need to get some basics figured out even to make a decent half ass start. We just need to put in place the basic elements of a functioning society in place, create conditions which may sustain a free flowing enterprise or if you like democratic values. Watching MTV or buying a coke in a dhoti doesn`t make you democratic, you have to buy into the freak`n value system behind the coke and the cadillac! and that my friend is highly unlikely...:-)

But I am glad...that you corrected my misplaced notions that things are getting worse...I guess Sub AccHa haye...;-) ciao

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

{{(China will not tolerate Pakistan becoming too Islamic and center of Islamic world).}}

but how can that be?...recently romair informed us that China was soon going to surpass the US as the economic center of the world, and pakistan would be its Canada...hamidm and millions of pakistanis would move to china to grab lucrative jobs...they will give up urdu, tandoori chicken, and shalwars for mandarin, kung pao chicken, and lampshades...there will be chinese rock concerts on the beaches of karachi...china will then attack india to take kashmir and gift it to pakistan...together they will shrink India`s billions in software exports to zero...

Zeemax

Ali1. Thanks for the link. Very painful reading. Yes that`s exactly how suicide bombers are made ..

Your stupidity knows no limit. Christians have been killed inside their churches in Pakistan. Churches have been looted and defiled. Pakistanis have arrested Christians, sentenced them to death on religious charges. How many Christians in Pakistan will become suicide bombers?

We, The pakistani Americans

That should have been the title if a pakistan had existed. May be the pakistanis should find out why there are no pakistani restaurents. There are turkish ones, there are indonesian and lots of malaysian ones. Whay not a pakistani one after all the gas about karachi gost.

Once I asked one pakistani about this and he felt that pakistan is viewed as an islamic country and as a corollary a terrorist one and no one might come. He was actually an importer of Shan and Lazaz masalas to australia. In any case these brands are increasingly displayed in the `indian` stores, eye catching with their colourful packing. Not many are buying it any way, an indian curry with paki masala, that is haram, and the whites and the indians know it.

The same is the story with pak handicrafts. These are well polished shining and well presented. But no one buys, simply because they are machine carved, come with precise groves into which brass pieces are stuck in, and topped up with polyueurethene finish. Indian ones are crudly made, they are hand made, come with french polish, and people buy it.

Why pakistanis cannot see this, simply because they are muslims, in saudi they dont do brass inlays, hence the pakistani named ali bin ahmed of faisalabad cannot accept artisans and support them, while he walks in his desert robes chewing dates and camel meat..

anNy….

…hey, are we going to read more about your trip anytime soon?…

Romair:

“Are you suggesting that Israel would attack Pakistan`s nuclear program? They tried once, and didn`t succeed.”

…whoa!….are you sure about this?…

hobbyty

...``it is matter of balance, Broadway and Tasbee and Block party and Sunday school need not be exclusive``

.......that`s what i thought until i saw kids dropping out of LSE and Cornell to kill a journalist in karachi or be killed in afganistan ....i could live with that and think of it as an aberration and not the norm, except i look around and see nothing but rejection of ``them`` and ``their`` values by our children who were born and raised here ..... the exposure to sunday school can lie dormant for years but can, and does, result in full-blown disease by the time the child enter colege or drops out to go to a madrassah in karachi or west virginia ......

......in its mildest form this virus results in mediocrity ...... i know hundreds children of pakistani ``professionals`` and have attended dozens of graduation parties with biryani and pisatcio kulfi but i don`t know one kid who made it to a state championship in hockey or the spelling-bee, not one made it as a violinist in a chamber orchestra, no one went to harvard law school or for that matter even made it to harvard.... i know of two or three kids who made it to cornell or mit, but they are the exception, but i still don`t expect to see them on the cover of time - jack welch is a scratch golfer too and even bill gates has a single digit handicap......... most girls end up going to the local communty college because their neurosurgeon father worries about them being away from home .....

........ they are misfits and we are doing it to them ..... they don`t care about bach or beethoven and can`t name ten players in the nhl ..... why? ...and what about sex - yes, what about sex? ..... since they have never seen aunties and uncles sitting together and have always segregated boys from girls in the ``community`` since they were four years old they are growing up to be misogynists or, astaghfirullah, worse ...... our daughters can talk to chris or mike or shaun but have never talked to omar or usman who they have known for fifteen years .......

........ but omar and usman don`t care because their ami will bring tham a bride from mughalpura to raise another crop of first generation immigrants ...... it is true - nine out of ten weddings i attended last year had imported brides and grroms - doctors from lalamus for their engineer sons and housewives from lalukhet for their physician sons .....another londonistan in the making!

........ gotta run... have to take the kids to sunday school where the principal blows the whistle when he sees boys and girls together and shouts, `` no, intermignling! - intermingling is haraam``....he is not bad - there is this other guys i worry about who keeps on telling them that the reason they didn`t have the eid party is because the jews stole the pizza ....... on the way back we will stop to get a hamburger and see if we can undo any of the damage ..... i confess to being a hypocrite

hobbyty, listen to sameer mian and think about michele kwan, java coders and the sixth sense ............

``, the religious component of identity is allowed to run amok with the help of masjid, Sunday schools and other Islamic organizations because of the belief in its universality and correctness. This identity intensifies exclusiveness and then majority excludes those who are bent upon remaining outside the norms. The root cause of problem is the religious belief in universality, a deen and the only truth ``

...... that is exactly what i was trying to say except that i can`t say it as profoundly and nicely in dotenglish ..... the problem with muslim americans is not that they are muslims, the problem is with the fact that they are not american - and proud of it!

...... michele kwan an yo-yo ma represent the chinese americans, dr sanjay gupta and night shayamalam represent the horrible hindoo americans ..... who represents the muslim americans - imam siraj wahaj or louis farrakhan ......the fact of the matter is that the ideology that we are so proud has condemned us to become, at the best, another oddity and tourist attraction like the amish of pennsylvania or the hassidic jews of brooklyn ....... that wouldn`t be too bad if we could make shaker furniture or cut diamonds ...... unfortunately, if driving cabs or writing java code is our strong suit we won`t be much of an attraction ........

Sameer

Your dialogue with your Christian friend was a good one. Btw, are you from Cornel. Just curious...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I guess I have got a little understanding of the ways some prominent chowkies think about Islam.

1. Sameer emphasizes on scientific rationalism to lead a healthy life. His views on most of the issues are laced with scientific insight and logic. He is a delight to read when he is on a song. He rejects the view that religion can have any role in modern way of life.

2. The second category includes Fuzair and Hamidm. Extremely smart and knowledgeable, these people(including Sameer) inspire envy from the wrong side of the border... They are neither against Islam, nor in favor it being the solution of all the worldly problems. However they strongly advocate limiting the role of Islam in public life. These are pragmatic people who take a stand based on reason and logic and are not subscribed to any particular ideology.

3. In third category comes Asif. Asif Naqshbandi is a ``true`` believer, or so he thinks. In his version, all but one sect of Islam, Judaism, Christianity not to speak of ALL heathen Hindus, Buddhists, athiests etc. are destined for hell. However from personal experience, author feels Asif is likely to be a pious, law abiding, and honest person in his real life, as is evident from his writings.

4. Holding views between second and third category, Zeemax and Prof Hobbs fall into a separate category. Especially Zeemax is an enlightened fellow who believes in interpreting Koranic/Biblical verses with application of reason. Prof Hobbs is not so enlightened, though. The polite posture of Prof Hobbs belies his dislike for Hindus and non-Muslims, IMO. He does, however pass off as a polite person, though. Both of them do believe that solution to most if not ALL of the worldly problems can be found in Koran.

5. Tahmed,temporal make a fifth category. They believe compassion towards fellow humans can solve most of the problems. They believe in humanity above all, with a compassionate interpretation of Islam forming the basis of their faith.

ps I hope people enjoy it.