We, The Muslim Americans

pankaj #86 Interesting groupings. Like all summary groupings, of course, there are simplifications that in certain contexts may make the groupings incorrect. But certainly a refreshing way to look at things, and an impressive cut at things.

LONG POST ABOUT AGRICULTURE AND OTHER STUFF!

Waheed,

Thanks for your reply.

I do think your imagination is running away with you. You`ve made a lot of colorful statements but I don`t think you could actually prove what you are saying with facts or figures.

Yes, the feudals did enjoy a nexus of influence in Pakistan, but it is really on its way out, and furthermore, it pales in comparison to the political/industrial/financial influence of large industrlial/urban families in the cities of Pakistan today.

First of all I stand by my assertion that Pakistan does feed its people. Sure, there are people who are hungry, but starvation is not a largescale problem as it is in parts of Africa and India. We have the resources to feed our people the basics - milk, meat, bread, vegetables - in the rural areas, not just the cities and not KFC and McDonalds. Where people are denied food is a matter of resource allocation and other factors.

Cases in point: Maternal malnutrition is a far larger problem than paternal malnutrition. The inability of the government to provide clean potable water is a greater killer of children than starvation today in Pakistan. Or consider families where boys are given more food than girls; the Baluch tribes where women are not allowed meat because it ``increases their sexuality`` (whatever that means!).


The following is an essay I wrote for a Time Asia essay competition on ``Pakistan or India`s Greatest Achievement``. It provides a brief overview of the factual position on our agricultural system and its successes.

``Although Pakistan is a country beset by many economic and social problems, its greatest achievement, its huge success in the field of agriculture, cannot be overshadowed by these woes. Pakistan has consistently and confidently maintained its agricultural productivity despite the instability and uncertainty the nation has faced over the last 54 years.

``Pakistan`s triumphs in the agricultural sector can be traced to policies enacted throughout the `60s, `70s and `80s by its leaders. Military dictator General Ayub Khan brought about the nation`s first major land reforms in 1959. These unpopular reforms reduced landowners` gigantic holdings, but turned farms from large, unproductive tracts of land into manageable, productive units. Ayub also engineered the `Green Revolution` in Pakistan, American scientist Norman Borlaug`s strains of wheat, MexiPak, which produced bumper crops of wheat for many years afterwards.

``Zulfikar Ali Bhutto introduced two more land reforms in 1972 and 1977, and gave credit facilities to farmers so they could buy better seed, fertilizer, and farm equipment, which ushered technological change for Pakistan`s farmers. In the `80s General Zia-ul Haq gave land to the landless, and allowed supply and demand to flow without check in a laissez-faire policy that gave needed economic inputs to the farming community.

``The result of these policies is that Pakistan today is self-sufficient in all staple crops except for edible oils. Cotton, rice, mangoes and sugar enjoy exportable surpluses, while the wheat that Pakistan grows is more than sufficient to feed its own population of at least 145 million Pakistanis and 2 million Afghan refugees. Pakistan is also the seventh largest producer of milk in the entire world.

``Pakistan manages to feed its entire population year after year; although its people may still be searching for the answers in terms of education, political freedom, and international identity, it is a nation that never lets its people go hungry.``
--Bina Shah, Karachi


Now, some facts about agriculture and Pakistan today.

1. The land reforms that were enacted by the government cut down landholdings drastically. Before Ayub`s 1959 land reform, the two largest landowning families were the Chandios (100,000 + acres) and the family of Mir Bandha Ali (80,000 acres). Today, you have families like the Jatois (8-10,000 acres) at the top of the scale. That`s a 1000% decrease in forty years.

2. Also bear in mind that these families are not unified as you imagine. They have diversified and their holdings are spread out over 100-200 members of their families. Today the legal allowance is for 200 acres of land per person. If the families choose to pool their resources together and get more productivity out of combined landholdings, it makes sense, just as stockholders in a family will use their stock to vote en bloc. But this does not always happen, as many families have chosen to split up, and go their separate ways. This is the trend of agriculture in the future - landholdings getting progressively smaller and smaller.

3. In today`s agricultural system, it is not numbers that matter, but productivity. It is theoretically possible to make more money out of 200 acres of a fruit orchard than 2000 acres of cotton growing. Not all of Jatois` 8000 acres are productive land tracts. Much is forest area, unirrigated land, land with a high saline content, and so on. So don`t think that more is better in the agricultural system.

4. Pakistani banks do not give loans for land as collateral. They can in theory, but in practice it never happens. 85% of Pakistani banks` commercial liabilities have gone out to (mainly Punjabi) industrialists such as the Tiwanas and the Noons. The feudal and tribal names that you throw around - Bizenjos, Legharis, etc. etc. are largely symbolic and represent an influence that was much greater in past years, given the large amounts of people that used to live on their lands. With urbanization and industrialization, with people migrating to the cities, the clout of the feudals has very much been diminished. Today the power structure stands in the hands of the urbanites, industrialists, and bureaucrats.


In conclusion, what I mean to say with all of this is not a defense of feudalism (as some will most assuredly mistake it to be!), but the simple factual position that feudalism as the system that you envision it is in the process of dying a natural death. There is no need for anyone to ``invade`` the feudals and liberate the poor imprisoned masses. It is happening already, without anyone`s interference.

The agricultural system is in a transitional phase, but what you describe in your posts simply does not exist and I don`t think you actually have any facts to support your assertions. I`d be happy to hear what you have to say about it.

Cheers,
Bina.

RSaxena

``did any of you attend cornell?``

Not me Saxena :-)

Mr .Hamidm...#101

Dear sir thank you for your writing.

You not make fun of President field Marshal Mo. Ayub Khan. Under him pakistan was envey of world due to prgress of pak. He do many good things. He made new capital away from karachi. He knew its going to be land of criminal MQM type thugs. Will u say good world about it.

We became best friend of usa due to him. Kennedy and his wife liked our president. He was so trusted that america put its base in Pesh.

our industry was started under his guidance.

He defeated old cranky Fatima Jinnah soundly democratic type and took out wind out of that lady trying to use connection with Quaid .

We had best military and equipmen in world. All american chhap while hindu brahmn baniya army had old russy type. Ex fauzi like romair can tell you PAF had qualitatively advantage over IAF.

He wisele let go Mujib. He could have easily hanged. One phone call to judges and case could have been settled.

he had good relationship with india`s nehru.

he made wise decision not to attack too much but stop as war can kill pakistan. Yahyya do not learn from him.

He was handsome, i have seen picture with kennedy smoking and drinking, he was white and good looking like leader. He had good personality and generous. In rtirement he gave always money to children. He had most beautiful looking daughter. Better looking than ms. Keneddy. She looked so beautiful in red sarri ( that was not write its kind of hindu dress).

even though he defeated fatima when unrest started he hand over power to gen. Y. He was ready to listen to people voice. He could have easily live like life president.

he was good writer, frieends not master. He was british trained good manners of raj.

He did give damn to Mullahs, he drank and ate whatever he liked.

Some say 4` indian prime minister- dhoti clad sastry when saw huge ayub died of heart attack.

Let us not say bad worlds about Mr. A. Khan. Let hin rest.

His fault was he was gentleman and bloody sindhi ZAB took advantage to discredit ayub to become pakistan supremo. Well he broke pakistan in 1971, eder hamara , uder tumahra. He gave bad name to Ayub. He really felt bad after break up of pakistan, he broke his heart. He died heart brokenly the country he brought up to status, Jinnah dream went in flames. I salute Mr. A. Khan. I think history will be kind to him. Its sad our people use our leaders memory as spent condom and put in their name in gutter. I felt sad when he died nobody showed respect to dead leader. He knew usa is strong did not give value to arab and firab etc. He will be given justice on judgement day

What do you call the brainless Pakistanis who pay 15 dollars per month to watch ZTV hurl abuses at their country, religion, heores, values, ethos... everthing they hold dear.... AND THEN write posts on chowk complaining about ZTV. (Hint: Raja something)

No doubt PMA Kakul extracts even the pea sized brains of the dimwits who join it.

Hamidm, SameerJb

First of all Hamid, I need you to understand that a polemic with you or Sameer is not what I am interested in, I want a discussion of real problems and real solutions - Both you and Sameer come from a point of view, that is the opposit of the point of view I come from - you to yours, etc.,.

Over the Weekend I had company over, and as usual between Pakistanis and Muslims Ameericans of Pakistani descent - the topic was what of Pakistan - I lead them all to the computer and I displayed your post for them. Some read it out loud and quickly everyone read it quitely, not a one of these persons is physician or a computer person, not a one who does not have a masters degree, at least, and not a single couple that make less than $120K - over Mudslides we tried to talk over your post - without being contensious, there was not one of us who was not deeply hurt by your characterization of us. You are reckless with language, but that`s your perogative, though we wondered why you should choose to dump on us - such anger - anyway your cross to bear - you managed to shock and abuse us, us who value the freedom of each individual to make his/her own choices - what with Miripuris and Lalukhetis, etc., you cut persons such as us to the bone, in the name of conscience and liberty, you have chosen to deny us choice, indeed while you judge our choices, proposing that our choices are harmful as if it were ``American`` to do so, is in poor taste - Poor Indians whose South Indian names Mr. Sameer berates - Poor Pakistanis who, not a one, not a single one arose to say, Hamid, perhaps you should not write when angry or under the influence - I wonder if in your daily experience you have the opportunity to characterize persons, any persons as you choose to characterize Muslim Americans as a the new ``...`` - I have a cousin in law who is African American, it just brought tears to my eyes as I read your posts over and over again - I realize you want what you percieve as the best for Muslim Americans and for Pakistani Americans - and I am on record on these boards as calling for us to feel less and think more - I must admit, between you and the rest of us, I did not know for whom the tears in my eyes formed. Do you really imagine the millions of innocents who happen to be Muslim Americans as potential``---`` is that not a most pessimistic, angry and hostile view? Have former peasants really done so bad in Bradford and Manchester? or here in the US?

You have offered me some advice, to read Mr. Sameer again, you are nowhere where the rest of us, including myself, have not been, remember it is a ``liberal arts`` education whereever one studies in the US and Europe - but - it is only a starting point, sojourner. The fact that our is a radically conservative background, is not grounds for the rejection of all our cultural baggage. Should persons import brides and bride grooms, we can have various opinions, in the end it is not out choice - and we must respect the free choices of others and hold them accountable for those choices as they would our choices.

Sameer, Why must you strive so hard to prove yourself to me, as uneducable? OK, OK, you are right about everything, especially about Islam being the evil that it is - as you are a ``progressive`` and imagine yourself a ``scientific liberal`` - help me understand why is it that you are not content in holding the point of view that you do? why is that you seek valdation by the agreement of others of your point of view? If Islam is a negative influence to YOU, by all means reject it - but you do not want to allow the possibility that it may not be a negative influence for others? DO you think that ``tolerant`` - Do you think it ``pluralistic`` - recall pluralism is not for those who hold as you do but for those who do not hold as you do.

You have taken the opportunity to berate islam on the many boards of Chowk - more power to you - but whwn you begin sugesting that the freedom of choice of free individuals be denied - you may expect opposition to such ideas.

hamidm #101: ``so what are we going to export - ganderis?.... let`s focus on putting a little dal in every pot in pakistan before we start talking about exporting mashaks`

You arguments are begining to sound more and more like Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan. I hope you don`t share his interests in headgear. Although for some reason, I think you do :-) I have heard he has a special guy carry his hukkah when he goes anywhere.

First your main aim was to introduce democracy in Pakistan, by bringing back BB and NS, and relying on the voters to vote them out for the nth time. Now you have all of a sudden shifted to putting a little dal in everyone`s plate. Given a choice between voting and dal, which would you take? You need to make up your mind.

Also how exactly can a country put dal on everyone`s plates, without making some money by exporting goods. Is the dal going to appear automatically from somewhere. Only the good Nawabzada (or you) can answer that one.

Please read the complete thread that a discussion is following. No one is saying that Pakistan can immediately start exporting high profit items. All I am saying is that Pakistan should try to think along those lines, and make efforts to reach that stage, someday (this will be clear to you, if you read, all my replies related to this issue, before commenting). And during that process, it should not distinguish between any market; Muslim or non-Muslim. And it should take advantage of any asset it can use, to gain access to those markets (including religion).

At the current point, Pakistan needs to straighten out its own house. Which people like you, with their love for Nawabzada Nasrullah Khans of Pakistan, will make sure doesn`t get done.

While it is interesting to read your remarks. One can only take so much humor. Please attempt to make some sort of a point, instead of taking your whole time to try to find defects in other people`s points.

hamidm cont`d: I would be interested in your formula for putting dal on everyone`s plate without Pakistan building (planting, growing, marketing etc.) something that can be exported. Where will the money for buying the dal (or growing it) come from?

This answer I really have to hear.....

Reply #: 76 Ralph

[How many Christians in Pakistan will become suicide bombers?]

Yes the blasphemy law and the Gujranwala, Bahawalpur, Islamabad incidents are a scar on our face. There`s no question about it. It is the work of one small but potent militant group. The general population does not feel this way at all. My room-mate in University and one of my best friends is Christian, and heading a large corporation. The Churches in Lahore and Karachi are well respected and revered. The foreign banking sector here gives priority on hiring minorities. One of the most prominent bankers here is Julian Singha, a Christian from Grindlays and was head of Oman bank, a Muslim entity. The operational chief of CBR ( Central Board of Revenue), the Member Revenue, i.e. the person who runs the CBR on a day to day basis, is a brilliant Hindu. Can you get further than that in running affairs of the Govt being a non-muslim? That proves Pakistan is more secular than anyone else and the minorities have no complaint with the State. Certainly they have been brutalized by isolated elements, but everyone knows that story. So no suicide bombers here. Hindus and Christians here are Pakistani above all and we have great respect and regard for them as do they for their country. The Mandir of Neela Gumbud in the middle of Lahore is intact despite all provocations. We can never forget Sir Ganga Ram and how much he did for Lahore.

Reply #: 86 Pankaj

So Pankaj you`re the Bird`s eye over Chowk. Interesting categorisation. I agree to your bracketing of my views. That`s exactly true.

Reply #: 91 Pankaj

I have no prejudice towards the American society. I only take exception when they try to teach us morals. I have seen American society in a lot of depth my friend and I know there`re more weirdos and maniacs there than anywhere else. The Killer Mom was not crazy, that`s what the jury determined. She knew full well what she was doing. It was only that she wanted to avoid the responsibility of raising those five kids so she killed them all. The children were too much of a pain.

There have been incidences in Pakistan where a desperate Mom killed her kids and then killed herself out of sheer misery. Many fathers did too out of poverty. But they always killed themselves as well. Murder/suicide cases. The American Mom didn`t kill herself afterwards. Her life was more important than those little souls. It`s sign of great decay.

Reply #: 92 sigalph235

About Israel, do study how it was created. It was a line in the sand drawn by the British after the second world war when Jews had no-where to go. So the Palestenian territory was grabbed, Palestenians kicked out and placed in camps, and their lands handed over to the European Jews justified by Psalm 137 of Bible. I have always asked the question that when the Allied Forces won the second World War, and Hitler was defeated, why couldn`t the Allied Forces resettle the Jewish nation back in Germany, Austria, and Russia where their roots lay. Is it that they didn`t want them there ?

I`m not anti-semitic at all as someone on this board has suggested. I owe a lot to an Austrian/Israeli Jew. This was one person who picked me up when I was down, just as I had picked him up when he was down and everyone was kicking him.

The basic rule of fairplay remains. I say the same to my Jewish friend and he agrees. He knows what the Allies did after the 2nd World war and doesn`t fault me for my criticism of Israel. He goes on and on about how Lebanon was destroyed and how the Land of the Prophets was turned to war ground for no reason at all.

That thing about being anti-semitic pricked me. Listen, that friend of mine had his foot blown off in a land mine in Beirut. He`s a multi millionaire now because a humble Muslim friend helped him. And now, whenever I`m in trouble, he`s always there. As are several Jew friends of mine in South Africa.

I`m not anti-semitic, only anti-Israel.

Rgds

Hamidm: I couldn`t resist this one. This is specially for you. Hope you don`t mind :-)

``Overreacting to nonentities

By Majid Sheikh

.....But we have in our midst a Killjoy who has been saying `No` to any sensible proposal ever made by successive chief executives of this luckless country. And this Killjoy is Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan (hamidm), the greatest champion of democracy you will ever know. He thinks democracy, he talks democracy, he dreams democracy.

He holds a news conference every time he feels like it and the funny thing is that he gets the newsmen he wants and he gets the coverage he has never deserved in the newspapers the next morning and he spends the whole day following the press conference answering calls from his `spoons` (they are called chamchas by the locals), praising him to high heaven.

Half a dozen such calls and the Nawabzada (hamidm) (I do not know who was the nawab whose zada he is. Such is my abysmal ignorance) but as I told you, he fancies himself as the champion of jamhooriat....

I am, however, reasonably certain of one thing. The Nawabzada (hamidm) is our own version of Don Quixote. Just tell him you have seen (an imaginary) windmill near, say, Rang Mahal. In no time at all, the Nawabzada (hamidm) will mount his charger and, going at full gallop, reach Rang Mahal from his Nicholson Road residence, and seeing the non-existent windmill, go tilting at it and the devil with the consequences.`` (Dawn, Pakistan)

Hamidm Mian:

I was just kidding:). You`re the best -- no kidding.

hasan

Godot,

That is what I am talking about, pakistan has to create heros. take australia, they have anzac day, the day they `emerged` as an independant nation, but in fact that is the day they got slaughtered by the turks in WW! in the beaches of gallipoli. Aussies talk about mateship as their great trait, this is the mateship of the prison, in the convict camps. What every other society would like to hide and be ashamed of, aussies have turned them into aspects that they are proud of. Simply because they had nothing, that is all what they had.

Now think of pakistan, basant is banned, all of that crappy punjabi dance of bhangra is no ,more promoted. In fact I aked my pakistani colleagues about any cultural visitors from pakistan and all that he could say was some singers, something like shehnay a few years ago. Look, the fact is simple, the islamisation has killed of everything local.

It is not that I give much credibility to naipaul, but he paints in bright colours even a blind could see. Nothing, absolutely nothing can take the credit for banishing abdus salam, other than islam. I have been harping on this for years, YLH once claimed that he has submitted two articles on abdus salam, the fact is that even chowk will not publish an article on abdus salam, even any of the educated will not post a long response about abdus salam. I remeber once sameer put an entire article as a post because of chowk will not put up the article, I even remember even zeemaz resorting to the same. No abdus salam is not worth the risk.

regards

Jay

Aamir 74,

Here we go again. The small nimber of people, the elites have a significant effect on the course of a nation, more so in the case of pakistan. It is a few military men that matter. Take the case of Mushy now, to please the US masters he will have to take increasingly anti jihadi actions which is going to isolate the military. As a dictator, the Us will find it hard to understand the compunctions of Mushy. The csrews will be tightened more and more, threatening military action against pakistan. Pakistan is really between devil and the deep sea, any chance of extremist take over will lead to nuclear castration, but will have to implement anti extremist policies which the populace hates. Well that was just to de,oralise you.

regards

Jay

To fret and fume

There are a lot of good pakistanis on the chowk hurt by the invective of kafir hamid. they are offended and upset and are in tears , like hobbyty, by the hyperboles on the chowk. Here is something for you all to shed some real tears in response to bodies in graves. from dawn of today.

Targeting of doctors

Young doctors are being killed in cold blood, but there has been only a whimper of protest. They were young doctors who sacrificed the security of foreign lands for a cause. Many more carry on, their lives overwhelmed by a pervasive fear.

Can we not mitigate the grief of the bereaved by at least giving vent to our anger and horror, and voicing our anguish so that the killers are perforce brought to justice?

Why have things not come to a halt? Why is there no protest? Why we the become so apathetic?

Rightfully, there should be a deluge of protests, a reaction of some sort, at the very least, from all those who still have an intact consecience.

The murderers strut about knowing well that the law works to their advantage. Our indifference makes us abettors in these horrendous crimes. We are in a state of crisis not just by dint of the horrors that occur day after day, but also because of our passivity.

With what face can we bemoan the brain drain in these circumstances? Those responsible for this reign of terror are anti-national forces. We must defeat them.

Dr Shahida Bashir

Karachi

Romair,

various posts,

I sent you a reply over the weekend, but it seems it got lost somewhere in the cyberworld.

First, a tongue-in-cheek comment at your irritation with sigalph. Maybe you got a wee bit peeved at him because he made the mistake of calling you Air Marshall, instead of your official Chowkie designation of Field Marshall:) Get over it--yourself!

Talking about ``potential``--yes Pakistan has potential. But by that argument every S.Asian country has potential to be great---may I extend my neck further--even greater than Pakistan.

As far as being the potential ``leader of the muslim world``--IMHO, Bangladesh is the country that has much greater potential than Pakistan. It has better, more established institutions, has remained a democracy, has a better law & order situation than Pakistan, better relations with that albatross India (a millstone around Pakistan`s neck), very fertile soil, abundant mineral & gas reserves & potentially a huge economic market--not to mention an access to Indian (& Chinese) markets. It is not tainted with negative international publicity that Pakistan has to contend with. To the best of my knowlege, the State Dept has NOT taken out an advisory to US citizens to avoid travelling to Bangladesh.

Economically, Bangladesh has a much better ``potential`` than Pakistan.

1) That geographical position that Pakistan has is more a liability than an asset. Access to Central Asian oil via Pakistan is a MIRAGE. Wake up & smell the coffee, for Heaven`s sake! In order for that oil to reach Pakistani ports, it has to traverse 1000s of miles in a pipeline through Afghanistan!

Afghanistan (including a major part of NWFP of Pakistan) is the last remaining sanctuary of fierce wild west independance of OUTLAWS. NOBODY, can & will tame them: not the British, not the Russians, not the GoP, not the Americans & certainly not Afghans themselves. Tribal Warlordism & justice is a way of life for them. Strategic economic concepts to them mean DIDLEY SQUAT.

Maybe you want to buy shares in a company that gets a contract to build a pipeline in Afghanistan. But then you know what PT Barnum said....

2) Military might means DIDLEY SQUAT too. Israel`s main goal is to see that the ``Islamic Bomb`` stays in Pakistan. In that respect, so does most of the ``civilised`` world. No matter how much indomitable Pakistani ``world famous`` military expertise you provide to the rest of the Islamic world--they dont have a prayer to defeat Israel militarily.

If Pakistan dares to start ``exporting`` nuclear secrets, you wont have to just contend with India--you will have a very very pissed off West, Israel & Russia to deal with. We Indian coyotes, undoubtedly , will milk that to the max.

I think you are ``spinning`` Israel`s interest in improving relations with Pakistan in yet another grandiose delusion (among many, may I add). They just want a Pakistan thats compliant to America`s bidding--PERIOD!...ie, make sure it does`nt get any grandiose delusions..ala Saddam Hussein.

3) Corollary to #2...Mushy is the most recognised S.Asian face. True. Please..enough with your spin...I personally like Mushy because he`s a realist. The US loves Mushy, today, because he has allowed the US to grab him by the balls & squeeze him as & when they please. Make no mistake about that!

What the US looooves more than an independant democracy is a compliant dictator that they can manipulate. Zia was a DARLING in the US. When he ceased to be of use to them, he was cast off like a used condom. Like I say, if you act like a condom, you`ll be used as one. But of course, when he does get discarded, you will complain bitterly about how ungrateful the US is. Yeah, much more ungrateful than Canada.

Heck, at least Zia got billions from the US, including weaponary. What the heck has Mushy got, in comparison? except for personal publicity. I agree with you... Mushy is the best choice among a huge list of retarded potential Pakistani leaders who have looted & raped your country (but ofcourse, blame it on those horrible coyotes, next door).

4) Lastly, you Pakistani soldier boys strut around like your S *it doesnt stink!! Yoohoo...wake up & smell the coffeee, again!

You havent WON--not even ONE frikking war in your GLORIOUS history!! Heroics & winning battles & praising your incredible skills is like losing a tennis match & bragging about a few aces you served. The Americans kicked the crap of the Vietnam Commies whenever they fought head-on. But the Americans are humble enough to completely admit they LOST the war.

You guys think that Pakistan defeated the Soviet Union in Afghanistan?! Give me a frikking break!! I think you actually have started believing your own bs!! It was American aid, weaponary & training that helped the mujahadeen win. Yes, Pakistan played a big role--but it WASNT the clincher--OK.

Let me prove it to you. Pakistan got sooo swollen headed that they defeated the Russians that they lauched a similar mujahadeen campaign in IOK. This time, WITHOUT US aid. What happened?!! Did you get ONE INCH of IOK in 10+yrs? Has ANY OTHER COUNTRY in the world even twisted India`s arm?

Now you complain that even Indian film artists hate you! Yeah..damn right, pal...I know you refuse to believe Pakistan has had anything to do with terrorism in India..but ask the Indians!

Mushy left Agra in a huff because he took umbrage to ``cross border terrorism``. What the HELL does a STRATEGIC U_TURN mean?! Lets call a spade a spade--it means the glorious mujahadeen war has FAILED. You LOST buddy. Its tantamount to Mushy admitting that those ``freedom fighters`` are biting Pakistan`s ass more than India`s.

Hey, my friend, you make a lot of sense many of the times. But when you go crazy about your optimistic spin re Pakistan, you sometime lose touch with reality, IMO.

Reply #: 101 hamidm, Reply #: 106 ahmed madani

1) The Sandhurst trained (not standhurst) Ayub Khan was right in going for Industrialisation with overt US support, but wrong in choosing consumer goods as import substitution. That was a blunder. At the same time, he created the 22 families who controlled everything from toothpaste to Insurance. So The Field Marshall, handsome and elegant as he may have been, (this is directed at ahmed madni) was wrong. Bhutto was right in unravelling that structure.

2) Hamidm you`re right that Pakistan does not have an exportable surplus which you have crudely stated as ``...... so what are we going to export -ganderis?.... `` That hurt. Romair is right in his ambitions but naive and that is forgivable. That does not mean his views should be ridiculed. Romair is a dedicated Pakistani .. Period.

My friend, if you delved deeply into how countries progress, you will find that small countries with small populations and a small resource base progress on an export-based industrialised economy. Examples are Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea etc. Large countries with large populations thrive on a domestic driven system. Your abode, USA, thrives on domestic demand and not export. Pakistan is wrong in clamoring for exports and inviting foreign investment. So is India. Foreign investment brings in a dime as capital and takes out a dollar in the first interim dividend. As for exports, we just don`t have the value added goods to export. As you said most of the software exports were transcription but you were wrong with the figure. It`s 80 million dollars but it`s still peanuts.

My point is, a dal in every pot will not come from exports or foreign investment. It will come from domestic economic activity. We must first have faith in this country, everything else follows. The foreigner comes for the profit, not out of any altrusitic reason. Our own people prefer to steal and cheat and keep their ill begotten money abroad. When this changes, you will see where Pakistan goes. We are working at it.

Rgds